Post-abortion Syndrome
B
have been reported to follow things such as saying hello, smoking, wearing
purple clothing on Tuesdays during the month of November, and even coloring
ones hair. The mere coincidence of feelings of guilt following an action,
event, or behavior are not necessarily indicative of wrong. BTW, many
events can bring about the feelings and behaviors described in the latter
part of this post. There is also no mention of other possible trigger
events. Having had an abortion does not mean that all women will also
choose to have those feelings and exhibit those behaviors.
Ramon Kiré wrote in message ...
>A national poll found that at least 56% of women experience a sense of
>guilt over their decision, though the pollster himself acknowledged that
>many women will not even admit having had an abortion. [1] In fact, a
>five-year study shows that 25% of women who have had abortions sought out
>psychiatric care, versus just 3% of women who have not had abortions. [2]
>Further, numerous studies reveal that women who have had an abortion
>experience a high incidence of depression, stress, low self-esteem,
>suicidal feelings and substance abuse. [3]
>
>Sources:
>
>[1] George Skelton, "Many in Survey Who Had Abortion Cite Guilt Feelings,"
>Los Angeles Times, March 19, 1989, p. 28.
>
>[2] "Report on the Committee on the Operation of the Abortion Law," p.
>321. Ottawa, 1977.
>
>[3] Vincent M. Rue, "The Psychological Realities of Induced Abortion,"
>Post-Abortion aftermath: A Comprehensive Consideration, Michael T.
>Mannion, Editor, Sheed & Ward, 1994, p. 543.
>_______________________________________________
>
>(Submitted by Ramon, with the following comment: It is hard to call PAS a
>"Syndrome" as though it were a cluster of symptoms of something wrong.
>Rather, it is a perfectly normal human reaction to the death of a son or
>daughter. The fact that you participated in your child's death only makes
>the suffering worse. There would be something terribly wrong if you were
>so hard-hearted you did not feel it.)
Ramon Kiré
guilt over their decision, though the pollster himself acknowledged that
many women will not even admit having had an abortion. [1] In fact, a
five-year study shows that 25% of women who have had abortions sought out
psychiatric care, versus just 3% of women who have not had abortions. [2]
Further, numerous studies reveal that women who have had an abortion
experience a high incidence of depression, stress, low self-esteem,
suicidal feelings and substance abuse. [3]
Sources:
[1] George Skelton, "Many in Survey Who Had Abortion Cite Guilt Feelings,"
Los Angeles Times, March 19, 1989, p. 28.
[2] "Report on the Committee on the Operation of the Abortion Law," p.
321. Ottawa, 1977.
[3] Vincent M. Rue, "The Psychological Realities of Induced Abortion,"
Post-Abortion aftermath: A Comprehensive Consideration, Michael T.
Mannion, Editor, Sheed & Ward, 1994, p. 543.
_______________________________________________
(Submitted by Ramon, with the following comment: It is hard to call PAS a
"Syndrome" as though it were a cluster of symptoms of something wrong.
Rather, it is a perfectly normal human reaction to the death of a son or
daughter. The fact that you participated in your child's death only makes
the suffering worse. There would be something terribly wrong if you were
so hard-hearted you did not feel it.)
"I'm forever unwrapping the eternal present".
Ray Fischer
>A national poll found that at least 56% of women experience a sense of
>guilt over their decision, though the pollster himself acknowledged that
Even if true, guilt is not PAS.
--
Ray Fischer For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world,
r...@netcom.com and lose his own soul?
marcopol...@my-dejanews.com
kee...@zip.com.au (Ramon Kiré) wrote:
> A national poll found that at least 56% of women experience a sense of
> guilt over their decision, though the pollster himself acknowledged that
> many women will not even admit having had an abortion. [1] In fact, a
> five-year study shows that 25% of women who have had abortions sought out
> psychiatric care, versus just 3% of women who have not had abortions. [2]
> Further, numerous studies reveal that women who have had an abortion
> experience a high incidence of depression, stress, low self-esteem,
> suicidal feelings and substance abuse. [3]
>
> Sources:
>
> [1] George Skelton, "Many in Survey Who Had Abortion Cite Guilt Feelings,"
> Los Angeles Times, March 19, 1989, p. 28.
Hmmm. Surveys are tricky, Ramon. Word bias and all that. Is there any way for
me to get a hold of the actual survey? Did it consist of questionnaire(s),
interviews, or both? (I am not looking for a copy of the article, but a copy
of the actual instrument(s) used in the survey.)
> [2] "Report on the Committee on the Operation of the Abortion Law," p.
> 321. Ottawa, 1977.
How can I obtain a copy of this report?
> [3] Vincent M. Rue, "The Psychological Realities of Induced Abortion,"
> Post-Abortion aftermath: A Comprehensive Consideration, Michael T.
> Mannion, Editor, Sheed & Ward, 1994, p. 543.
Which studies did Rue et al. use?
Hello? Ramon? Are you there?
> _______________________________________________
>
> (Submitted by Ramon, with the following comment: It is hard to call PAS a
> "Syndrome" as though it were a cluster of symptoms of something wrong.
> Rather, it is a perfectly normal human reaction to the death of a son or
> daughter. The fact that you participated in your child's death only makes
> the suffering worse. There would be something terribly wrong if you were
> so hard-hearted you did not feel it.)
>
> "I'm forever unwrapping the eternal present".
>
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david@freeserve news
Ramon Kiré wrote in message ...
<<its not surprising with people like you all in the world. Its people like
you who nearly made me kill myself. Now i realise you are the evil ones.
Ramon Kiré
<da...@sea-shore.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Hi David!
Killing people is always wrong. Killing yourself is just as wrong as
killing your child.
It is not evil to try to save innocent babies from a cruel slaughter.
Ramon
Ray Fischer
>It is not evil to try to save innocent babies from a cruel slaughter.
It is evil to treat women as slaves and force them to suffer and die.
Ramon Kiré
> Ramon Kiré <kee...@zip.com.au> wrote:
> >It is not evil to try to save innocent babies from a cruel slaughter.
>
> It is evil to treat women as slaves and force them to suffer and die.
Oh yes, thanks for reminding me, Ray. I forgot to point out that enslaving
women by subjecting to a lifetime of emptiness, childlessness,
lovelessness and guilt, is wrong because it forces them to suffer, and, oh
yes, the 'death' Ray is referring to is the fact that it's not always just
the baby who dies by abortion. It causes women to die as well. Again, many
thanks for reminding me Ray. :)
Ray Fischer
> r...@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>> Ramon Kiré <kee...@zip.com.au> wrote:
>> >It is not evil to try to save innocent babies from a cruel slaughter.
>>
>> It is evil to treat women as slaves and force them to suffer and die.
>
>Oh yes, thanks for reminding me, Ray.
You seem to need reminding a lot.
> I forgot to point out that enslaving
>women by subjecting to a lifetime of emptiness, childlessness,
Ah yes, the classic sexism which holds to the belief that women's
purpose is to breed.
> is wrong because it forces them to suffer, and, oh
>yes, the 'death' Ray is referring to is the fact that it's not always just
>the baby who dies by abortion. It causes women to die as well. Again, many
>thanks for reminding me Ray. :)
Free clue, fanatic. Many, many women live happy and productive lives
filled with love who have no children.
Ray Fischer
>> Free clue, fanatic. Many, many women live happy and productive lives
>> filled with love who have no children.
>
>Not if they have murdered their children. Their conscience never lets up!
Don't assume that your peculiar insanity has any relevance to the real
world. In fact, even women who have had abortions go on to live happy
and productive lives filled with love.
Ramon Kiré
> Free clue, fanatic. Many, many women live happy and productive lives
> filled with love who have no children.
Not if they have murdered their children. Their conscience never lets up!
Ramon
Maritza Combes
Ramon Kiré wrote in message ...
Snipped two studies because one is a worthless newspaper poll, and the
instrument used was probably never psychometrically tested.
The other study that Ramon quoted had no literature reference that can
be looked at in a journal, so strike two against Ramon. Let's look at
Vincent Rue...
>Further, numerous studies reveal that women who have had an abortion
>experience a high incidence of depression, stress, low self-esteem,
>suicidal feelings and substance abuse. [3]
Ramon is sneaky. He says "numerous," but does not give figures. Ramon
only quotes a book of studies that Vincent Rue had compiled. Let's
see...
>Vincent M. Rue, "The Psychological Realities of Induced Abortion,"
>Post-Abortion aftermath: A Comprehensive Consideration, Michael T.
>Mannion, Editor, Sheed & Ward, 1994, p. 543.
Vincent Rue, along with Anne Speckhard, are both psychologists in
private practice. Their notion on "PAS" is based on their own clinical
findings, not methodological studies. They published their paper and
introduced the notion of PAS in the following:
Speckhard, A.C., & Rue, V.M. (1992). Postabortion syndrome. *Journal
of Social Issues, 48(3),* 95-119.
Several facts about their paper that they themselves admitted:
PAS is based on their own clinical findings, not objective,
methodological, peer-reviewed studies. In fact, they based their views
on theories only, as well as a mish mash of newspaper polls and
clippings, stupid stories of their own and others' clients. Let's look
into this paper a bit so we can laugh:
"One woman said of her suction abortion, "I don't know how it's
possible, but I know I felt when my baby died. I could feel when its
life was sucked out [this is a statement he quotes from another
study]." Then Speckhard et al. say, "In 1989, several national polls
found that the majority of Americans perceive abortion as 'immoral' or
even 'murder.' " Here Rue uses unverified newspaper polls, which are
not psychometrically tested, and clumps them with a story of a
screaming woman that is second-hand information. Yet, these are what
he uses to say that the belief that abortion involves the "death of a
fetal child" is instrumental in the development of PAS, the latter
term which he has never methodologically verified (p.107).
"When a woman's experience of an abortion trauma is delayed [he has no
proof that it is; he is only speculating], it can cause confusion,
fear, and bewilderment in the woman who thought she had successfully
dealt with her abortion experience. One woman spoke of it this way, "I
can't believe it's my abortion that's bothering me after all these
years....[p. 109; here he quotes another source]" Here Rue uses a
self-report of one person, from a clinical session, to "verify" that
negative, postabortion psychological sequelae can be delayed. EVERY
researcher knows that a self-report from a case study is totally
unreliable and has no external validity (generalizability). That's one
of the first things I learned in grad school.
Rue mostly quotes his own studies and those of David Reardon, a
staunch pro-lifer who has admitted in his own publications that his
goal is to eliminate all abortions in America. As far as
peer-reviewed academic research, the worst he can say is "Because
there has never been a national epidemiological study of the
psychological health risks of abortion in this country, it is
impossible to estimate with any accuracy the incidence of negative
abortion sequelae [p. 103]."
Let's see some more of Rue putting his foot in his own mouth (same
study):
"...(McGrath, Keita, Strickland, & Russo, 1990) concluded that
'abortion's relative risk of mental disorder compared with other
reproductive events has not been fully ascertained.' " So much for
adoption as a "healthy" alternative!
What about the studies Rue loves to quote in his paper?
Vaughn (1991): "This sample was purposive...." This means that women
were pre-selected.
Barnard (1990): "Barnard reports that her sample of 80 women...."
WOW!! Kind of a small sample size, isn't it?
Matthison (1985): "Matthison reported on case studies...." Freud also
used case studies--that's where he developed the concept of "penis
envy" from.
Speckhard (1987): "...all of the 30 women in her self-selected
descriptive sample...." 30 WOMEN!! What a sample size!!
Reardon (1987): "...Reardon conducted an exploratory survey of 252
high-stress, postabortion women. Although NONRANDOMLY chosen and
SELF-SELECTED from 42 states...." Speaking of bias...
To use MINX's famous phrase, let's review:
1. Rue uses case studies, second-hand information, testimonies of
single individuals, studies with purposively selected, small samples;
unreliable newspaper polls, and theories to put forth his idea of Post
Abortion Syndrome.
2. He hangs around people that are staunchly pro-life and use their
political clout to pass anti-abortion laws.
3. He states that "It is essential that the aftereffects of abortion
be thoroughly reexamined," yet wants to slap his methodologically
unverified PAS onto the DSM-IV.
__________________________________________
>
>(Submitted by Ramon, with the following comment: It is hard to call
PAS a
>"Syndrome" as though it were a cluster of symptoms of something
wrong.
According to Calvin and Hobbes...
>Rather, it is a perfectly normal human reaction to the death of a son
or
>daughter. The fact that you participated in your child's death only
makes
>the suffering worse. There would be something terribly wrong if you
were
>so hard-hearted you did not feel it.)
Why don't you quit your babbling and provide some more research so I
can enjoy tearing it apart?