Is it just me?
Archangel
I know that (name of NG deleted) is a special place for REAL hackers,
so I'm not talking about people who post to this newsgroup, especially
if you are reading this group from one of the 3 BBS's that are out
there who have sysops who are wise enough to know what serious hacking
is. It must be a good BBS to survive these days, anyway.
So here I go:
I believe that the number of real hackers out there has remained more
or less the same over the years, while the number of wannabes and
lamers has increased. In my opinion, ninety percent of this can be
directly blamed on a certain popular movie and a certain popular
internet service provider. I'll let you fill in the blanks.
All I know is that I'll be damned if I'm going to go and hack into
some porno site just so that some rude zitfaced teenager can have his
self gratification. Just my two cents worth.
Archangel
Wrath of God Hand Delivered
http://garstecki.net/archangl/pass.htm
bEERMASTER
Hahahahahaha I know what ya mean. And I'm also done with questions like.
"How do I hack a website ?" or "Can anybody help me hack this e-mail".
Hahaha and I agree that certain movie REALLY sucks, but on the other
hand, showing a bunch of sweating smelly guys, behind a UNIX puter
wouldn't sell that much I guess :-)
bEERMASTER
--
****************************************************
* Please delete the *NOSPAM* part from my e-mail *
* address if you would like to send me NORMAL mail.*
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Drako
WOW. Im actually posting to Usenet. I haven't done this in years (fkng
spmmrs). By my count theres less than 1500 real hackers in the US. I've
been following the #'s since 1984/85(?) and haven't seen much change. Big
difference in my opinion is where you find 'em. I remember when all of the
lamers hung on the bbs's and the elite were on the 'net. From what I've
seen those positions have reversed. The 'net has become the sole territory
of the mindless wannabe and the real hackers have mostly moved back into
more closed systems.
BTW. I am no hacker. I saw too many friends get locked up to really get in
there and do it myself. So heres my word to all the lamers out there. Jail
is a reality. Unless you are a god, ANYTHING you do can be traced (I know,
thats what I do now). You guys need to think about that b4 you attempt your
first hack. Are you willing to go to jail for this? The anonymity of the
computer is just an illusion.
Kubla Khan
In article <3494c...@news.metro.net>, arch...@almighty.com says...
>So here I go:
>
>I believe that the number of real hackers out there has remained more
>or less the same over the years, while the number of wannabes and
>lamers has increased. In my opinion, ninety percent of this can be
>directly blamed on a certain popular movie and a certain popular
>internet service provider. I'll let you fill in the blanks.
This reminds me of an article I wrote for MSNBC on this subject. It was in
response to a piece written by Brock Meeks about the de-evolution of the
hacker ethos. The basic thesis of my piece runs thus:
There is a very real perception of the de-evolution of hacking. It is a
direct result of the huge inflation of net users we've experienced in recent
years. It cannot be blamed on AOL, or _Sneakers_, or _Hackers_. Rather, this
huge inflation has just made the net more representative of the real world.
And in the real world, there are a lot of petty people out there.
Think of it like this:
Historically, those who have been successful on the Internet have been so
because they have had a truly great understanding of the medium and the
paradigm. FIRST, a successful net publisher was a good hacker; then SECOND,
he was a good writer, or photographer, or archivist, or whatever. The face of
Internet has now changed, however - as opposed to a collection of hackers and
computer enthusiasts displaying their varied talents while reveling in the
newness of the medium, the net is now seen more as a simple tool, with which
people can do the things they have always done, in a slightly different
setting.
Thus the reason why the hacker ethos is disappearing is simple: people are
doing what they do in the real world here in cyberspace, and the fact is,
there are far more petty vandals (wannabes) in the real world than brilliant,
ingenuitous intellectuals (hackers). The kids nowadays simply use the net as
a tool to do what they've always done - engage in a little petty thievery and
vandalism.
Sometimes, this really depresses me. But then I realize that it's only the
inevitable result of ths medium becoming more representational of the world
around us.
I'm never really saddened on this point for long, however. I'm a
die-hard idealist at heart. That's why I stick around in alt.2600 while
everyone else is gone. Hacking is a state of mind. It's about reveling in
discovery, and learning to do things others are sure are impossible.
The long slow slide can be stopped. The masses don't have to be locked in the
mentality that they bring to the net - they can be opened to the hacker ethos.
Sincerely,
Kubla.
JagerMeister
In article <34960...@blush.jps.net>, You can figure out what to remove wrote:
> In article <3494c...@news.metro.net>, arch...@almighty.com says...
>
> >So here I go:
> >
> >I believe that the number of real hackers out there has remained more
> >or less the same over the years, while the number of wannabes and
> >lamers has increased. In my opinion, ninety percent of this can be
> >directly blamed on a certain popular movie and a certain popular
> >internet service provider. I'll let you fill in the blanks.
<snip>
> There is a very real perception of the de-evolution of hacking. It is a
> direct result of the huge inflation of net users we've experienced in recent
> years. It cannot be blamed on AOL, or _Sneakers_, or _Hackers_.
Rather, this
> huge inflation has just made the net more representative of the real world.
> And in the real world, there are a lot of petty people out there.
<snip>
> Sincerely,
>
> Kubla.
I'm not elite, obviously. In fact I hate using the term since it is
directly pulled from a movie that insults us. I have been around tho.
Under different names (a person could easily trace me back several years
if they were so inclined). I *personally* think that it has gotten better
than worse since i came here. When I first started reading alt.2600
(around 4 years ago) It was spam city. No one could even carry a decent
thread. When i decided to start checking it again this year, i found it
actually had content. I'm sure it was far better than it used to be
before my time, but i think it is slowely getting better rather than
worse. Of couse, back then, postings were more about how to make a bomb
with toothpaste and iodine or a list of NSA numbers rather than long
tabloidish threads on Archangel.
-JagerMeister
José Enrique Camacho Blasco
Archangel escribió:
> I know that (name of NG deleted) is a special place for REAL hackers,
> so I'm not talking about people who post to this newsgroup, especially
> if you are reading this group from one of the 3 BBS's that are out
> there who have sysops who are wise enough to know what serious hacking
> is. It must be a good BBS to survive these days, anyway.
>
> So here I go:
>
> (...)
I'm not agree with you. I'm only a spanish Unix student. I'm trying to
learn something here. And i think all of you (hackers) think that the
world it's only the USA. First time i saw a PC was in 1992. Now, all
people who were 5 or 10 years later than the USA (or Sweden, or ...) it's
learning. And very fast. Anyway, there's people that think Computers it's
a Diablo gun.
Thanks for reading this. I know my english sucks.
Brian Grant
Hey, your english is better than 50% of what I see here. I guess you
are using your real name too although the name of your news server makes
that a little uncertain.
--
Remove nospam.please. to e-mail
These might like some though, they sent it to me
coco...@qldnet.com.au, webm...@pbtech.com
Andrew Kerr
Archangel (arch...@almighty.com) wrote:
: I know that (name of NG deleted) is a special place for REAL hackers,
: so I'm not talking about people who post to this newsgroup, especially
: if you are reading this group from one of the 3 BBS's that are out
: there who have sysops who are wise enough to know what serious hacking
: is. It must be a good BBS to survive these days, anyway.
I have to admit, I've never paid much attention to this, or other newsgroups.
Years ago, when I first started on the net, I posted, replied, and carried
on fairly intelligent conversations. However, its getting much too difficult
to wade through spam, and people tht are hardly users, let alone hackers.
The only reason I came back, was because apparently some info about one of
the servers I do some work on. Now since this incident (though I didn't
see the post) the users account has been removed. I couldn't believe
the amount of crap I had to wade through to get to it. Half the posts
I see are warez, and adult site passwords. Well, there's other, far
more appropriate newsgroups for this.
Of course, I don't know why I bother complaining, its the same problem
everywhere. I enjoy working with computers. I enjoy looking hard at
Unix systems, and trying to find ways in, and then closing them. I know
there are many others out there who share this intrest, and are either
at, or exceed my level of understanding. Its unfortunate that conversing
with such people had become so difficult to do.
I have gained access to machines, I will continue to do so. I have never
caused any damage, or read anything private when doing so. My "high" I
guess you could call it, comes from typing in whois, and the system replying
root. Then, closing that hole. Or if I'm not in charge of the machine,
showing it to the admin(s).
Sorry, but I had to rant a little :)
Andrew
--
Andrew Kerr
Email: ke...@tdi.uregina.ca
Alternate: ke...@3co.com
Check out Laugh it Up! Huge Collection of Humour
http://tdi.uregina.ca/~kerr/index.html
Millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship.
Brian Grant
Andrew Kerr wrote:
>
<< The vorpal blade went snicker snack >>
>
> I have gained access to machines, I will continue to do so. I have never
> caused any damage, or read anything private when doing so. My "high" I
> guess you could call it, comes from typing in whois, and the system replying
> root. Then, closing that hole. Or if I'm not in charge of the machine,
> showing it to the admin(s).
>
> Sorry, but I had to rant a little :)
> Andrew
<< and snicker snackeree >>
I hope, for your sake, that you are maintaining personal records of
these events. Sooner or later, you will run into a sysadmin who does not
take kindly to your efforts or to a system where the logs will reveal
your activities.
The worst case scenario would be someone claiming a secure system when
it isn't and blaming the evil genius hacker who attacked it. When that
happens, it sure would be handy to have a record of other attempts and
testimonials from the sysadmins that you helped.
Guillermo Schwarz
José Enrique Camacho Blasco wrote:
> Archangel escribió:
>
> > I know that (name of NG deleted) is a special place for REAL hackers,
> > so I'm not talking about people who post to this newsgroup, especially
> > if you are reading this group from one of the 3 BBS's that are out
> > there who have sysops who are wise enough to know what serious hacking
> > is. It must be a good BBS to survive these days, anyway.
> >
> > So here I go:
> >
> > (...)
>
> I'm not agree with you. I'm only a spanish Unix student.
Así que ahora los spanish tienen estudiantes de UNIX?
>
> I'm trying to
> learn something here.
Si quieres aprender a hackear, cómprate un PC y LINUX.
> And i think all of you (hackers) think that the
> world it's only the USA.
Certainly not Spain!
> First time i saw a PC was in 1992.
See?
> Now, all
> people who were 5 or 10 years later than the USA (or Sweden, or ...) it's
> learning.
Esta frase es para el bronze. Ahora, toda la gente que era 5 o 10 años después
que USA(o Suecia, o .. ) es aprender. Ningún hacker podría entender eso.
> And very fast. Anyway, there's people that think Computers it's
> a Diablo gun.
Qué miedo! Diablo debe ser una marca de guitarras eléctricas...
>
>
> Thanks for reading this. I know my english sucks.
Agree.
broadcastb
The mysterious posts involving "teach me's" from people (apparently) who
can't speak english that well........ WErNt from REAL people that can't
speak english that well. Where they came from remains a mystery and they
might make a laugh or 2 if you can find them.
I'm sure Arch (or whoever) didn't mean it this way at all. I mean, how many
languages can I speak? Or even think about trying to learn to speak? I have
trouble enough with local dialects of my own language. The last time I
tried to speak Spanish I said "mucho gusto" in regard to the food while I
was a guest at dinner.............(ask Mexican people about that)
Brian Grant wrote in message <3496B8...@nospam.please.erols.com>...
Toffi
Well I do not know if there are real hackers in this group. The most
which is posted here is bullshit. Questions like: How can I hack my
WIN95 or something else which is completly uninteresting. I do not know
anybody who has sucessfully hacked into a telephoneline so he gets
unlimited free calls worldwide. There was noone who published a DIY for
this.
--
Toffi
Archangel
Spam@kubla@is.thevo...@irritating.com (Kubla Khan) wrote:
>In article <3494c...@news.metro.net>, arch...@almighty.com says...
>>So here I go:
>>
>>I believe that the number of real hackers out there has remained more
>>or less the same over the years, while the number of wannabes and
>>lamers has increased. In my opinion, ninety percent of this can be
>>directly blamed on a certain popular movie and a certain popular
>>internet service provider. I'll let you fill in the blanks.
>This reminds me of an article I wrote for MSNBC on this subject. It was in
>response to a piece written by Brock Meeks about the de-evolution of the
>hacker ethos. The basic thesis of my piece runs thus:
>There is a very real perception of the de-evolution of hacking. It is a
>direct result of the huge inflation of net users we've experienced in recent
>years. It cannot be blamed on AOL, or _Sneakers_, or _Hackers_. Rather, this
>huge inflation has just made the net more representative of the real world.
>And in the real world, there are a lot of petty people out there.
>Think of it like this:
>Sincerely,
>Kubla.
Kubla, we gotta get together sometime. You ever get out to Detroit? I
travel quite a bit, maybe we could hook up at a 2600 event.
Jennifer Martino
Guillermo Schwarz wrote:
> > Thanks for reading this. I know my english sucks.
>
> Agree.
Aww...dammit. When my mom asks me (and sadly enough, she does...) "Is my
butt getting big." and I happen to notice it is...I don't tell her so
just as a nicety.
I don't see how you could ever have a girfriend if you can't lie...=)
(Not meant as a flame, but implying that you NEED to lie (ex. "Like my
new dress?" "Am I fat?") to keep one...as a joke of course.)
--
a.k.a. : jmar...@ripco.com; ojen...@aol.com
E-MAIL: jmar...@ameritech.SPAM.THE.WONDER.WHAT.IT.IS.MEAT.net
ICQ # : 4703978
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Kubla Khan
In article <34974...@news.metro.net>, arch...@almighty.com says...
>
>Kubla, we gotta get together sometime. You ever get out to Detroit? I
>travel quite a bit, maybe we could hook up at a 2600 event.
>Archangel
>Wrath of God Hand Delivered
>
I am so priveleged to have had the opportunity to meet many truly awesome
people in my short life. (If you are a friend of mine and you are reading
this: Smile.) It would indeed be very cool to hook up and get a chance to
talk with you some time. I love sharing insight.
As a matter of fact, coincidentally enough, my birthday is coming up in about 3
weeks. I'm very deeply considering going to Santa Rosa, CA, to celebrate the
day, as it was the place of my birth.
Now, considering these two coincidences, you wouldn't happen to,
coincidentally, have reason to be in the Santa Rosa area around that time,
would you? Chance, they say, works in threes.
And hey - while we're talking about birthdays, if anyone wants to send me a
birthday present, that'd be cool. Top on my wish list are donations to the
Kevin Mitnick Defense Fund! In case anyone doesn't know this, an official
acccount for the Kevin Mitnick Defense Fund is in place. Send checks payable
to:
Reba Vartanian
Legal Defense Fund for Kevin Mitnick
c/o Norwest Bank Nevada, N.A.
Rainbow Ridge Office 672
3104 North Rainbow Blvd.
Las Vegas, NV 89108
A/C #: 672-190-1177
Thanks!
Sincerely,
Kubla.
Kamal is Mad
Ah mein freund, but if you didn't haxor the porn sites for our zit faced
rodents they would burst of hormonal imbalance and stuph :-)
I say, free the 0-d4y pr0n, lots, oh l0ts of free pr0n to anyone who posts
a reply to this saying "me too" *and* includes this header near the top
of their post
Any takers ?
--
I say that this is a sophisticated form of propaganda and slavery.
You grow up hearing all about our great country and climbing up the
corporate and financial ladder to live rich full lives. Work hard, enjoy
life less, prosper financially, and die young. -- Demonika
Kamal is Mad
In article <JagerMei-161...@ppp54.dormnet.mtu.edu>,
JagerMeister <Jage...@omitthis.bigfoot.com> wrote:
->In article <34960...@blush.jps.net>, You can figure out what to remove
wrote:
<cut cut for brevity>
->if they were so inclined). I *personally* think that it has gotten
->better than worse since i came here. When I first started reading
->alt.2600 (around 4 years ago) It was spam city. No one could even carry
->a decent thread.
I would have to disagree with you on this one. I started reading
alt.2600 about 1994, roughly three years ago, and I remember much less
spam and more content.
Well, maybe not that much less spam. Now as compared to, say, last March,
this group is doing better. The means through which this seems to have
occured would be; a general maturing or increased disinterest on the part
of some of the more lame aol posters(not all aol pposters are lame); the
mysterious man hailing from metro net who some love, and others hate, our
very own archangel, and Sadena's tireless, relentless takeover of the
tb2600 campaign, and his at times shrill, bot war against lameness. Then
our own Harlequin and Kubla also throw a few punchs along with scores of
people, too long to name but all important too !
But I still emphasise that even with all of the threads going own now the
level of useful technical information in this group is still way below
what I remembered. The spam was always here(though in different forms) but
the content has dropped some.
But Kubla and the above mentioned crowd keep the group worth reading a
bit.
->before my time, but i think it is slowely getting better rather than
->worse.
Um, well I don't know. I miss the threads on using the foil coating from
Microwave TV dinners to make your car police radar stelthy
->Of couse, back then, postings were more about how to make a bomb
->with toothpaste and iodine or a list of NSA numbers rather than long
->tabloidish threads on Archangel.
:-) Ah the memories ...
->-JagerMeister
Andrew Kerr
Brian Grant (bmg...@nospam.please.erols.com) wrote:
: Andrew Kerr wrote:
: >
: I hope, for your sake, that you are maintaining personal records of
: these events. Sooner or later, you will run into a sysadmin who does not
: take kindly to your efforts or to a system where the logs will reveal
: your activities.
: The worst case scenario would be someone claiming a secure system when
: it isn't and blaming the evil genius hacker who attacked it. When that
: happens, it sure would be handy to have a record of other attempts and
: testimonials from the sysadmins that you helped.
: --
Actually, the admin of the machine I've been playing with lately has
just moved to a new job in the same company, and I plan to compete for
his job, with him as a reference. So, yeah, I do stay on good terms
with the admins, and have never hacked a machine that I didn't know the
admins of.
Andrew
--
Andrew Kerr
Email: ke...@tdi.uregina.ca
Alternate: ke...@3co.com
Check out Laugh it Up! Huge Collection of Humour
http://tdi.uregina.ca/~kerr/index.html
Grasshoppotamus: A creature that can leap to tremendous heights... once.
Stavro
Kubla Writ:
>>>>Thus the reason why the hacker ethos is disappearing is simple: people are
doing what they do in the real world here in cyberspace, and the fact
is,
there are far more petty vandals (wannabes) in the real world than
brilliant,
ingenuitous intellectuals (hackers). The kids nowadays simply use the
net as
a tool to do what they've always done - engage in a little petty
thievery and
vandalism.<<<<<
Stavro Writ:
Great Point, and I couldn't agree with you more. Earlier this year I
finally ogt a computer that was able to access the 'web'. (A Macintosh
Performa 630 CD; it JAMS!). I thought there would be a lot of
intelligent discussions and mind stimulating web sites to make you
smarter. Then within a week it seemed like one big commercial, and that
too many pepole have access to it. Or, more precisely, to many immature
people. I don't mean to be elitist or snooty or judgemental, but this
was the impression I got. Most chat rooms made me feel like I was back
in high school in the locker room. (Obviously I'm not a 'seasoned'
vetran. In fact I hate pepper.) But what you said about petty people
that steal & vandalize is so true. Even moreso with the false sense of
security that the virtual realm of cyberspace gives you. I mean you're
not really there, are you? And nobody's really watching you, are they?
More license to do that which they do not have the intestinal fortituse
to do in real life.
My $.015 (yes a penny & a half)
------------
Faith is the substance of things hoped for...
Stavro
Radioactive Material
elite". I actually heard about the defense fund a few days ago,
unfortunantly I'm also VERY broke...
-Radioactive Material
Harlequin
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:11:27 -0600, Jennifer Martino wrote:
>Guillermo Schwarz wrote:
>> > Thanks for reading this. I know my english sucks.
>>
>> Agree.
>
>Aww...dammit. When my mom asks me (and sadly enough, she does...) "Is my
>butt getting big." and I happen to notice it is...I don't tell her so
>just as a nicety.
>I don't see how you could ever have a girfriend if you can't lie...=)
>(Not meant as a flame, but implying that you NEED to lie (ex. "Like my
>new dress?" "Am I fat?") to keep one...as a joke of course.)
I have the misfortune (or, rather, my friends and family have the
misfortune) of being someone who is obsessively truthful, in that
(except in exceptional circumstances) I endeavour never to state
untruths. This is, as you can imagine, a confusing affliction for one
who believes that almost nothing is ultimately true anyway.
However, I've learned to cope with difficult situations by remaining
silent or evading straight answers, sometimes through torturous
misdirection. This is a form of lying that even someone as
compulsively honest as myself can manage.
... of course, some say that my technique is the _worst_ form of
lying. I'm still trying to find a way to avoid telling myself it's
true.
H.
Harlequin
Haven't you read all the stuff posted about boxing?
H.
DNV
Archangel <arch...@almighty.com> skrev i artiklen
<3494c...@news.metro.net>...
> I know that (name of NG deleted) is a special place for REAL hackers,
> so I'm not talking about people who post to this newsgroup, especially
> if you are reading this group from one of the 3 BBS's that are out
> there who have sysops who are wise enough to know what serious hacking
> is. It must be a good BBS to survive these days, anyway.
--its just u...... just a small comment....
Im a sysop of a small hpa bbs here in denmark....and my board will stay
up!!.
its not how many users u got...its what they can find there....like
friends :-)
I got 25 users on one phone node...I will not let the bbs die som
easy......
--Back to the ROOT.... friend ship rulez.... /DNV/
Jennifer Martino
Harlequin wrote:
>
> I have the misfortune (or, rather, my friends and family have the
> misfortune) of being someone who is obsessively truthful, in that
> (except in exceptional circumstances)
Ahh..
My problem is that sometimes I seem to misplace that filter that is
between your brain and mouth...tell the truth sometimes unconsciously.
What I mean is that sometimes I can say something with the best
intentions, but while doing that I will say something like in my
subconscious that I really think about whatever it is I am talking
about, but never said because it would be hurtful/rude.
> I endeavour never to state
> untruths.
Noble, indeeed.
> This is, as you can imagine, a confusing affliction for one
> who believes that almost nothing is ultimately true anyway.
Ha... Confusing? or maddening? =)
> However, I've learned to cope with difficult situations by remaining
> silent or evading straight answers, sometimes through torturous
> misdirection.
But...isn't that, in a way, almost the same as telling a half-truth
(half-lie)?
> This is a form of lying that even someone as
> compulsively honest as myself can manage.
Oh..nevermind last question.
> ... of course, some say that my technique is the _worst_ form of
> lying. I'm still trying to find a way to avoid telling myself it's
> true.
What? That's nuts. That is the best (well..considering we're talking
about lying) way. Least dishonest, least hurtful, least devious. But...
it is, in a way, a mind game (BUT with only the best intentions. I think
that if someone has only the best intentions when doing something bad,
it isn't all that bad.)
--
a.k.a. : jmar...@ripco.com; ojen...@aol.com
E-MAIL: jmar...@ameritech.SPAM.THE.WONDER.WHAT.IT.IS.MEAT.net
ICQ # : 4703978
WEB PAGE: "The Web Page You Have Reached"
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/4471/
Telephone Recordings/Sounds
Updated weekly!
These poor people are starving in Africa. Please do your part and send
them some spam!
gwanote...@ameritech.net, gw...@juno.com, gwa...@aol.com,
gwa...@aol.com, gwanote...@ameritech.net, gw...@juno.com,
gwa...@aol.com, gwa...@aol.com
Harlequin
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:52:56 -0600, Jennifer Martino wrote:
>Harlequin wrote:
>> I've learned to cope with difficult situations by remaining
>> silent or evading straight answers, sometimes through torturous
>> misdirection.
>> ... of course, some say that my technique is the _worst_ form of
>> lying. I'm still trying to find a way to avoid telling myself it's
>> true.
>
>What? That's nuts. That is the best (well..considering we're talking
>about lying) way. Least dishonest, least hurtful, least devious. But...
>it is, in a way, a mind game (BUT with only the best intentions. I think
>that if someone has only the best intentions when doing something bad,
>it isn't all that bad.)
Hmmm... it could be said that my method is particularly devious and
dishonest, especially as it often requires people to pay attention to
my every word in case I slip something in with a dubious definition
("ah no, what I actually said was..."). The things I put people
through for the sake of my honour...
H.
TINSTAAFL
he Harlequin your posting just arrived btw you sure it was a poncho and not a
"ruana"? (columbian poncho)
write you lazy bum!!!
TINSTAAFL
Harlequin
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:04:07 GMT, TINSTAAFL wrote:
>he Harlequin your posting just arrived btw you sure it was a poncho and not a
>"ruana"? (columbian poncho)
>write you lazy bum!!!
... And so I drag myself back into the virtual world after
entertaining my Christmas guests...
I think it is a poncho. I got it in Tijuana. I gave my best one away,
though.
H.