Newer Alphagrip modifier keys and arrow key position.

[Weiyi Lou]

Hi I was wondering, for anyone with the new optical AG's: do the
capslock, numlock and shift keys now send actual scancodes, or are
they still just hardware toggles?

I'm using the alphagrip on a mac, and wanted to remap the capslock key
to the Windows/Cmd key, since that's the button mac shortcuts work
with, and unlike the ctrl key, it's much harder to reach the lone
windows key with your right thumb.

As a work around for now, I've had to map the Del key to Cmd instead.
This works, but it does feel asymmetrical to use (have to reach quite
a bit lower), and I don't use capslock at all, so it's a bit of a
waste.

Also, does any one have any ingenious ways of making the left thumb
keys more like a D-pad, apart from heavy modification of the plastic
shell? I was thinking if there was some way to make a wooden cut out
to go over the four buttons. I've actually gone back to keyboards to
play games because the CYKL buttons just aren't intuitive for
direction. So now, I type with the AG, but play with a normal keyboard.

[Mike Willner]

Unfortunately, the only modification to the new AlphaGrip is the replacement of
the mechanical trackball with an optical one, so there is no change to the
capslock, numlock and shift keys.

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[Doug Sims]

I find that the arrow keys make more sense when you rotate he directions one position clockwise. This makes "up" more in line with the angle of your thumb, which I find easier to use.
Regarding the command/windows key. I find myself using the mouse (right click menus) more than keyboard shortcuts since my hands are still on the mouse. I don't know how many right click options are on the Mac, but I find it easier to adjust my use to the AG, than to fit my normal use to the unusual buttons.

[James]

I've noticed that the site is now calling it an iGrip, but it seems that it would actually be something like an AG-5b. (B to denote a second gen, but roughly the same feature set.)  How are things going regarding the AG-6?  (Scancodes, Wireless)  Both of these features are major, and would represent a significant improvement for the platform.  Especially the wireless, as this device, more than most, would benefit greatly from it.  It seems the last time this subject was discussed there were some talks about getting Microsoft interested.  I wonder if a smaller company, such as Rocketfish, might not be a productive path.  Also, there might be some value in the AG community writing a particular company, such as rocketfish, and asking them if they would bring the product to market, just to show them there is existing interest.  And by the way, I do think Rocketfish would be a good company to talk to, as they have a wide assortment of peripherals, a large number wireless and aimed at gaming, and it shouldn't be hard to show the AG as a powerful gaming accessory.  Moreover, if you look at gaming specific keyboards, mice, and the like, the AG's price is very competitive for either, let alone both, and there are a host of custom (non-standard layout) keyboards in the gaming community, so the AG's layout wouldn't be much of a turn off for that group.  I don't see any reason a product like this couldn't shoe horn it's way into a company's game accessory offerings.  Then once it was at Best Buy (the home of weird game stuff), the whole world would see it.  ..Just my thoughts.  :) --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Mike Willner <mi...@alphagrip.com> wrote:

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[Weiyi Lou]

Yeah, I've tried the arrow key thing too, with Y as the up button, It
works when I'm not in a panic, but when I do freak out in a game, I
did find that I would go out of control. I got the alphagrip for rsi
and typing reasons, and it's been a great help with that (no more
pain!), and no doubt I could train myself more to deal with it, but I
do wonder, if it's it's going to be marketed as a gaming device as
well, then shouldn't the d-pad area be more intuitive? Does the
current CYKL button arrangement have a huge typing benefit over
rotating it 45 degrees? Pretty sure most of us could cope with a '+'
formation instead of an 'x' formation :D

I'll try out the right click idea, that sounds like a good suggestion
for now. At least the more common tasks should be quite well catered
to in the OS. Sending actual scancodes would still be a move forward
in the future though, so I'll wait and see what happens.

In fact, now that the optical mouse is here with better speed, these
last two things (scan codes and d-pad rotation} are the only quirks
stopping me from just using the AG for everything.

On Aug 14, 7:34 am, Doug Sims <wdsim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I find that the arrow keys make more sense when you rotate he directions one
> position clockwise. This makes "up" more in line with the angle of your
> thumb, which I find easier to use.
> Regarding the command/windows key. I find myself using the mouse (right
> click menus) more than keyboard shortcuts since my hands are still on the
> mouse. I don't know how many right click options are on the Mac, but I find
> it easier to adjust my use to the AG, than to fit my normal use to the
> unusual buttons.

[Mike Willner]

FYI, we call this particular version of the AlphaGrip the iGrip Ergonomic Keyboard for marketing purposes, including trademark value (iGrip) and search engine optimization (ergonomic keyboard). For example, our iGrip brand has helped us enter into a marketing agreement (which has yet to be implemented) with an established company that produces in-vehicle holders and mounts for smartphones.

Thank you for suggesting Rocketfish as a potential marketing partner. We will contact them to see if there is any interest. I'm sure it would help to have AlphaGrip users also contact them to add credibility to the claim that the AG is (or has the potential to be) "a powerful gaming accessory."

With regard to Microsoft, it has manifested an interest in utilizing the back surface of a tablet computer for text input (in fact I was alerted to that fact by this Group), but we haven't been able to convince the behemoth to work with us. Of note, Sony's new gaming device, the PSVita, which is scheduled for release in the U.S. in 2012, has a touchpad on the back of the device. This product may cause the light bulb to go off for other companies with regard to the benefit of using the rear surface of a device for input, and that may lead an established company to us, given that AlphaGrip maximizes the use of a device's back surface for input.

Thanks again,

Mike

---

From: James <genera...@yahoo.com>
To: alph...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, August 13, 2011 4:43:51 PM

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[James]

My Alphagrip just arrived and I haven't had the chance to play with it much, but after playing with it for 10 minutes or so, I must admit I'm a little worried about the layout.  Hand positioning seems to be rather difficult.  If I have my hands oriented where my finger lay in the middle of the rear toggle keys (which seems like they should so that I can easily activate them in either direction) then my thumb aren't in a good position to use the mouse or the upper set of keys.  I'm also uncertain about the prospects of using "keyboard" shortcuts, as there is only one of each of the "control" keys (ctrl, alt/otp, windows/command) you have to use your thumb which doesn't allow for it to press the needed letter...  Such at ctrl-c, or command-c on the mac.  

I am worried about the shortcut combos, but right now my largest worry by far is hand positioning, and I'm wondering if there is a certain way I'm suppose to hold this thing so I am able to actually hit all the keys without having to wiggle my hands into different positions to reach.  What's the expected use case?  Is the hand wiggling just a fact of life, or am I doing it wrong?  I do have to change my hand position as I move from one row to another a the keyboard, but that isn't quite as inconvenient as the keyboard is stationary, moving my hands around on a controller you can't actually "grab" (as you'll activate keys) is much more difficult to manage.

Thanks for any suggestions.

James

[Mike Willner]

I wonder if it's a hand size issue. How big are your hands? If the problem you
are

having is just a positioning issue, it should resolve itself after a few hours
of use, but if your hands are too small or too big to use the AlphaGrip
comfortably, that's a more serious problem.

If they are bigger than average and you are motivated to use the AlphaGrip, then

you can modify it as described here: http://www.alphagrips.com/modify.html.

If your hands are smaller than average, however, that's a problem. You'll
probably

want to take advantage of our money-back guarantee. If that's the case, please
contact sup...@alphagrip.com.

With regard to using the Ctrl or Alt here are a few possibilities:

1. Use your right thumb to reach over and press the Ctrl and Alt keys.

2. Use your trackball and the right mouse click to initiate commands such as
"cut" and "paste."

3. If you are using Microsoft Windows you can use an AutoHotkey remap that is
available on our website, http://www.alphagrips.com/Duplicator.html, which makes
the Ent button function as CTRL and the BkSpace button function as ALT. Then, to
generate the Enter or Back Space function, press Shift+Ent and Shift+BkSpace,
respectively. If you use a Mac or a Linux PC you may want to write a similar
remap using a program that is compatible with your operating system.

Mike

________________________________
From: James <genera...@yahoo.com>
To: "alph...@googlegroups.com" <alph...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, August 16, 2011 2:27:24 PM
Subject: [alphagrip] Hand position

Thanks for any suggestions.

James

[Doug Sims]

First, a question: How large (or small) are your hands? (I see Mike has already asked this, so I will continue)

This is how I use it.
I add a pad to each side of the Grip because my hands are a bit too big to comfortably hold and type on the Grip. The pads I use are made for an xbox360 controller and have an adhesive that sticks them to the side of the AG about where middle of my palm rests on the device. They are basically silicone ovals with tiny nubs on them for grip. This gives me a little extra grip on it so that I don't have to squeeze the device together to keep it in the right position.

As for positioning with typing, all four fingers should be parallel on the back of the device, and I rest my finger tips on the inside row of keys (same for index fingers). Think of this as your "home row" on the alphagrip. Just as with typing on a traditional keyboard, you can't hit all the keys and keep the rest of your hand in the same position, you have to reach; however, there is much less reaching with an AG so you should find it more comfortable.

When my fingers are on the home row on the back, my thumbs rest on the two 4-button sections on top (CKLY and Ent,Tap,Back,Space) so this is my home row for my thumbs. Any typing I do that is not those keys requires my hands to move postion (not much, but it is movement). The index finger keys are pretty easy and I think they are less of a reach than "n" or "6" and"7" are on a traditional keyboard.

The hardest keys to hit for me are the J,V,Z, and X keys, those are up there, but they are up there for a reason, they're pretty uncommon. 

Mike already mentioned my solution for Ctrl commands. You need to start using more mouse shortcuts. right click is much easier now that you always have your mouse in your hand while you are typing. If you use MS Office 2007 or later, then there are many more right click commands than before, so you might have to start thinking about commands in a new way.

I know that you would think that having a great keyboard like this would make keyboard shortcuts easier, but the advantage of the AG is that you have your keyboard, and your mouse at hand all the time. It takes time, but learning the most efficient way to operate with the AG will incorporate both mouse and keyboard shortcuts.

Hope you enjoy,

Doug

--

[James]

Hi guys,

I thank you for your kind and thoughtful responses.  I would imagine I have average sized hands for an American.  At least that's my impression from seeing other people over the years.  However, if they are anything they would be on the smaller side of average, and not the larger side.  I'm not in a position to measure yet, to give you exact dimensions, but that is my impression.

I have been playing around with it more and I have found, using the knuckle line in the hand as a guide, that by aligning the knuckles where the first knuckle (or index knuckle) is directly under the lip at the top of the device and just behind the seam (away from you), and the pinkie knuckle is just forward of the seam (closer to you) provides both optimal reach for the rear keys, and optimal camber of the hands to allow the thumb to reach the upper set of buttons.  I will tell you, that it does seems to be an exact science, but I am able to reach all of the keys.  I hope I was descriptive enough above to help anyone else who might be having similar problems. 

So far I believe I am about 3 hours into using the device and I can report that even though I am no where near being fast enough to use it for any sort of real work, that I have managed to learn there most of the letters are and most common punctuation without looking.  Also the learning process seems to be more entertaining, and less of a chore than learning keyboard was.  Of course that might because I know I can learn it, where as I didn't "know" I could learn to touch type as I hadn't learned a similar skill before, and that may be shifting my perspective.   I am discovering that learning where things are is a much faster process than it was learning to type (coming from a person that took ten years to finally master typing, that probably had a lot to do with the fact I just kept looking, and finally had a job where they never replaced the keyboards so I had to go without letters).  Anyway, I believe the reason why it is faster to learn to "grip" than to "type" is the increase in tactile information.  Tactile/spacial information is much richer than spacial information alone, which keyboards really only have spacial info, and thus provides much stronger stimulus while attempting to remember where a letter is located.  ...Just an observation I found interesting.

Regarding the short cuts, being a power user who prides himself on learning and mastering new short cuts, I do see the inclusion of only one set of control keys to be a major draw back for the device.  I specifically have attempted to learn not to need the mouse, so reverting back is not ideal.  It would be nice if a solution for this (obviously not in this iteration of the device) could be found, as 'keyboard' navigation is faster than mouse navigation.  Anyway, I don't know how that is going to ultimately impact things.  It may provide the impetus for me to maintain my hard won keyboarding skills moving forward, which I guess is a good thing.  Though, it is, unfortunately, a draw back for the iGrip, and one I believe should be addressed in future designs.  For instance, I believe all the lock keys could be move to less convenient, or at least less prominent, positions, as they lock when pressed, and another set of command/windows, control ,and alt/opt keys could be added in their former positions.  Also del could be a shifted back space (which would make since and actually be easier to use), and caps lock should be a green shift shift, which would also make since and be easier to use, and num lock could be a red shift shift.    I don't know if these options have been evaluated or not, but I thought I would being them up as brain food.  Especially as I'm new to the device, and I know once you are fully "initiated" into some thing, you tend to be more accepting of flaws, and you don't see solutions as well, because you have come to see things as being "just the way it's done".  So I thought I would offer the thoughts now.  :) 

Thanks again!

James

---

From: Doug Sims <wdsi...@gmail.com>
To: alph...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [alphagrip] Hand position

[Doug Sims]

I'm glad you got the hand placement down. 3 hours seemed to be the initial hump for me as well. There is a full size (8.5x11) "cheat sheet" that I have and keep posted to remind me of some of the trickier keys (symbols, num pad functions, basically all red and green shift keys) on the back of the device. I long since lost my stickers and never applied them to my new one (no need then). If I find it, I'll post it somewhere easy to get to and let you know.

I'm a keyboard power user as well and try to do as much as possible without taking my hands off the keyboard, which is why I like the AG so much. You don't need to rely on command options and ctrl + shift + "this or that" combos. 

As for shift + BkSp being delete. That's easy and a pretty common remapping. You didn't mention what OS you use, but Windows has AutoHotKey (i.e. AHK) is a free program, and Linux is even easier by editing the keyboard config files. Mac is similar but I have no experience with the AG on it.

AHK was a really popular topic 2 or 3 years ago on here, so search through the archives and see if you can find something you like. The group files are still available for download until the end of the month, and I think there was some sample scripts there also. Let me know if decide to start remapping any keys and you need some help.

Doug

[James]

Thanks Doug for your thoughts.  I also loath to take my hands away from the keyboard, and yes, the integration of the mouse (especially because it was a track ball) was a key feature for me.  Yes, the fact that the hands don't have to leave the device to work with the pointer does lessen the inconvenience of using the pointer, but certainly is not equal to not having to use the pointer at all.  (Fewer steps to do a single key short cut, than to navigate though a contextual menu, not to mention mouse travel.)

Yes, you could remaps some keys.  There are, of course, a few problems with that approach.  

1) You're not able to remap hardware lock keys.  Such as num lock, cap lock, etc. 

2) This doesn't allow for the assignment of ctrl, alt, windows to these hardware lock key positions.  

3) This doesn't work well when you use more than one system, as the config does not follow the device.  Personally I use a multitude of computers.  I personally own four systems, this is not counting the numerous vmwares I work with, and the various systems I remote into, and the system I work with.  This would be a lot of remappings, and wouldn't scale well.  Not to mention that I use various OSes as well, Mac OS X, BSD, Linux, Solaris, Windows XP/7/2003/2008.  

I do appreciate the suggestion, and no offence intended, but I'm just not a fan of using hacks to make up for inherent design issues.  And they are issues, as I would say that it simply doesn't makes sense to have all the modifier keys (alt/ctrl/windows) on the left hand (assuming you're only to do one set), as the left hand has more letters on it than the right.  Which means you have an increase of input collision opportunity (where you need a given thumb to activate a letter and the modifier at the same time) regardless of OS, thus a design oversight and one that could be easily mitigated (by swapping left/right lower set of keys) if not completely corrected (by moving the lock keys and mirroring the modifier keys).

I don't know if Alphagrip has any designs on optimizing the layout to better support power users or not, but I certainly hope so.  I would be curious to know what the user demographics are for Alphagrip so far.  I would imagine that power users (by virtue of what's required to become one) are more likely to put forth the effort required to adopted the Alphagrip than your average Joe, but only if they don't have to sacrifice power, so it may be worth considering their needs. Of course I may be completely off base here, as I'm only going off my own experience and insights, and I haven't done any sort of real market analysis. 

Other than the modifier keys placement, or lack of symmetrical duplication (depending on how you want to look at it), I'm actually fairly impressed with the device so far.  I place a great deal of importance on a device like this being adopted in the market and I very much hope it continues to grow and gain mind share, and eventually have some of it's rough edges worked out as well.  :)

James

---

From: Doug Sims <wdsi...@gmail.com>
To: alph...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 10:01 AM

[Mike Willner]

James,

Thanks for using the diplomatic phrase, "inherent design issues." :-) No doubt they are numerous. Hopefully we will be successful enough to generate the resources necessary to address them in a next generation AlphaGrip, a.k.a., AG-6 (or to convince a more established company to work with us to develop an AG-6). Your posts (along with others from this Group) are being stored in our "AG-6 Suggestions" file for future reference.

With regard to AlphaGrip's demographics, though we have not taken a survey, I would say most of our customers are either "power users," people looking for ergonomic input alternatives, gamers, or students. We believe that if the AG-6 addresses the needs of a power user (while remaining at a reasonable price point) other types of users will come along peacefully.

My co-inventor and I are not power users, so the feedback, support, and encouragement we get from Grippers such as yourself in this Group are invaluable.

Thank you!

Mike

---

From: James <genera...@yahoo.com>
To: "alph...@googlegroups.com" <alph...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wed, August 17, 2011 2:25:47 PM

[James]

Mike,

Thank you for the follow up.  Yes, "inherent design issues" wasn't the most diplomatic statement, but I didn't want to receive a response regarding how to try to work around them, as much as I wanted to show that there is a logic regarding "keyboard" shortcuts which wasn't applied correct when designing the device.  To be honest, I'm impressed that only two people designed this device and that it turned out as polished as it has with it's first public offering and that more things weren't overlooked.  Being a software engineer, I'm intimately familiar with the design process, and I know you almost never get it completely right with your first attempt.  You release a product into the wild and then you almost always get a flood of responses back regarding it's flaws.  But I have come to regard these responses as positive encouragement, as they indicate that I'm working on a product people care about, as no one is interested in improving something that doesn't matter to them.  For the record, I think you and whoever your codesigner is, did an out standing job with the device overall and you have definitely peaked my interest, and I hope things continue to move forward for you with your endeavors in this field.  I almost wish I was a hardware engineer, as I would to help solve some of these things instead of just pointing them out.  :)

Regarding you're statement about personally not being a power user:  If it would help, I could formalize my thoughts more regarding an optimized modifier key layout with special attention given to minimizing upset to the rest of the key positioning (as we definitely do not want people to have to relearn how to use the device, that's what's so powerful about qwerty is that once you know it you can use any qwerty keyboard) and maximizing function, as well as a defense as to why I would make the recommended changes.  If such a document would be helpful I would be more than happy to put it together.

Best regards,

James

---

From: Mike Willner <mi...@alphagrip.com>
To: alph...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:19 AM

[Mike Willner]

James,

Sometimes one's intent when writing an email or post gets lost in the translation. I actually did think you were being diplomatic. I've gotten a number of emails from people who have seen or tried an AlphaGrip where they have said something like, "I can't believe what an idiot you were to have done [fill in the blank] on the AlphaGrip. Any 5-year old would have known to [fill in the blank]."

So I apologize if you thought I was offended by your remark. I wasn't. And I agree, there are problems with the AlphaGrip's current design that I hope to be able to rectify, with the help of you and others, in the next version.

Also, thank you for offering to formalize your thoughts about how the next generation AlphaGrip can be improved. I think it best, however, to hold off until we put together a first draft for the Group to review, which will take into account the feedback we've received over the past few years. I say this because we may be inclined to make some significant structural changes which may obviate suggestions regarding changes to the AlphaGrip's current structure/key layout. You can be sure, however, that when the time comes, I will be knocking on your door, so to speak, to take you up on your generous offer to produce a document which will include your specific recommendations with justifications.

Thanks again,

Mike

---

From: James <genera...@yahoo.com>
To: "alph...@googlegroups.com" <alph...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thu, August 18, 2011 8:30:41 AM