Conscious, Constructive Control in uncertain times

[noel]

Hi Guys

Thanks for keeping the forum flags flying. Stuttering the domain of The Technique etc.

An eminent UK politician was asked what was most challenging about politics. His reply,' Events Dear boy Events'. I doubt that has been ever more true than now. What sort of universal law is this 'thing' obeying?

What does seem clear is that until we have a vaccine our only real defence lies in modifying our behaviour. Yet this too has the potential for peril. It's hard to imagine Government wielding more power. The populace acting through fear is ready to do as it's told.In a more ideal world directions would be given in a calm and reassuring manner. A rough time line at least as to such dictatorial power would be given.

Some behaviour modifications might be beneficial (at least in future pandemics). Others are too problematic and need to be discarded as soon as practicable. A 'silver lining' is too blasé for such an insidious organism (or is it a mechanism). Yet a methodology which encourages conscious, reasoned modification surely proffers advantage in a world awash with instinctive, fear driven reaction.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Jolly nice to hear from you Noel.

What sort  of universal law is this 'thing' obeying?

The law of life. All these organisms finding homes and sustenance. Killing and eating each other. Acting on Instincts not reason. Viruses and humans both!

A sad story.. My daughter's friend recently moved in to a yoga household. Rather than great peace surrounding her, her housemates say the advice to self isolate is a government conspiracy so they ignore it!

A big part of my study of mind body methods has been about belief. It is one of our dangerous aspects.

Superstitious spiritual egoists are some of tbe worst. To mistake your beliefs for wisdom!

Good luck to you all. The yoga world is moving online big time. AT without hands on work... it's going to be hard.

Keith 

[noel]

OK Keith,

Your spell as a trainee teacher comes to the fore. You immediately 

picked up on the pragmatics that face Technique teachers while I'm still 

thinking theoretically. However I still think that the perception 

(behavioral actions motivated by fear are suspect) has some credence.

Here's a quote from  economics journalist Tim Harcourt. 

These -physical distancing -measures may be temporary but they could 

have vast economic consequences and may even change how we work

The pandemic may provide a controlled experiment on how human beings 

adapt to change when we have to.

So are we 'observers' or (more likely) 'participants' and can an 

experiment be called 'controlled' which is grounded in fear?

NoelH

[noel]

On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 10:11:05 AM UTC+11, noel wrote:

,Cheers

The following was written by a columnist 

whose wit and whimsey I've come to 

appreciate. 

 

Of all the lessons from this time of 

pandemic, the speed of change might be the 

 greatest. -meetings plans and permissions 

were thrown out in the name of survival. 

It's an experience that will be remembered 

 in post -pandemic times and form a template.

My only criticism would be that the 

comment is a little opportunistic. There 

is still so much we don't know -even if 

antibodies are sufficient to prevent reinfection.

In my own pandemic journey I'm still 

focused to a large extent on awareness of 

'social distancing'. I had a minor 

incident the other day walking around a 

blind corner. It drove home to me however 

how the virus is 'amplifying' small misunderstandings.

Anything relating to your own journey is 

welcome here of course. That's not to say 

that anything here could replace the 

detailed analysis of a trained teacher of 

the Technique. Still that which clarifies 

you own thinking can only be of benefit.

NoelH 

[noel]

Cheers All

It's easy to cast this as being about 

governance.Here the PM took a brisk 

business like approach to a 'one in a 

hundred years' crisis. Nations have been 

brought to their knees. On the other hand 

the weather was particularly benign 

(beaches packed) so maybe this's more to 

do with meteorology than economics.

The thing is that when the fear reflexes 

are aroused someone wants to see the 

Technique as a a direct link to the 

lightness and upwardness we tend to 

associate with confidence. Let's not 

forget UNlearning attitudes/actions 

either. Also companions of the 

'constructive' journey.

NoelH 

[noel]

Cheers All,

Psychologist Dr Rachael Murrihy, who is 

also the director of The Kidman Centre 

says people will face yet another 

challenging transition when they come out 

of isolation, and they may have mixed 

feelings about things previously as simple 

as going out for a meal or going to a 

sporting event.

"It's very normal for people to feel two 

opposing feelings at once," she says.

"You can feel hope and excitement about 

the fact the social isolation and 

restrictions are loosening while at the 

same time feeling fear and apprehension, 

that's completely normal."

With all due respect I find it difficult 

to agree with the good doctor's 

assessment.

Take the case of Boris Johnson -naming his 

child after those two frontline medicos 

who kept vigil. This was just sheer relief 

from fear. Why else would you name your 

child IN PERPETUITY? Of course he was 

grateful to escape the maw of oblivion. 

There were no 'mixed feelings' or 

'challenging transitions' here.

Alexander nailed it pretty well I think 

when he emphasised the learning/unlearning 

aspects of the Technique as synonymous. 

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel

I agree with the idea we can feel.multiple things at once.

We are complex creatures with many different systems interacting.

We have very basic drives that result in emotions and we have perception filters that alter them based on our experiences and which are shaped by our muscle tension patterns. Then we have cultural conditioning.  So we get pulled in different directions. Like the urge to do new things but the fear of failure. 

We can view this as a battle between opposing forces. A teaching I got from yoga was to understand it as polarities. You are pulled towards both poles but it is not right to be totally at one or the other but there will be a place between that is a good balance for you.  

In many situations I think that's a goid way of looking at it. The urge to think that one thing must be right and the other is wrong leads to all sorts of muddles.

For instance in my exploration of mi d body things I used to look for the right answer. Then I came to see there was no such thing. 

Now I say to people that if one.mind body technique was best it would have beaten all the others by now.

As for Boris J..  His handling of these matters is not based on normal motives. He claimed these nurses acted in ways that gave him special treatment which would lay them.open to accusations they favoured him over others. He uses people and situations for his own advancement . He is about the opposite of ideal in FMA's terms. Both in posture and actions. 

Regards

Keith 

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[noel]

Guys. Keith

OK K I take your point. However remember that old advice that changing horses mid -stream is difficult. It's easier to sort things out in the quiet of home than a social gathering.

I'm interested in your comments on chairwork on another thread. Now I know its been an age since we had a teacher 'drop in' however I had the impression that chairwork was no longer as central to  a lesson in the Technique as it had been. Is that your sense as well?

If you were designing a teacher training course where would you place chairwork?

Still front and centre or do you think that there are other skills which would be  of greater benefit?

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

I wouldn't be designng an AT training cours. I don't have enough experience of teaching, many years would be required.

With my views on the AT the authorities wouldn't let me anyway!

A pivotal think in my AT trining was the article by Joe Armstrong which I have referred to many times.

Also the wider debate about changes in Conditions and Manner of Use, debate that exists under different names in all mind/body methods. That is how important is the release of muscle tension in psychophysical change...

As a person who believes it's a vital part of such change I am a 'Conditions of Use' person in AT terms. So I would place chair work right at the heart of it. But bearing in mind many I was training would not share my belief there would have to be elements to suit them too.

Joe Armstrong said the early teachers got rapid improvements in Conditions of Use.(CoU) If modern teachers downplay chair work I asume it is because they don't value such rapid changes in CoU. as I doubt they can get it using the AT without chairwork.

Related to this untl I left Birmingham UK a few monts ago I was going to an interesting buddhist group. The leader said

'You can go round the body chasing away each bit of muscle tension but our method works on the bit of the mind that is holding onto it'.

So as one who has been such a 'chaser of release' I found this quite a challenge and think it's possible these people are really onto something.  To them release of tension is a vital part of the process of meditation. This is not something that is scientifically proven yet. But I have still not met a person who had released a lot fo tesion who thought it wasn't crucial. The only ones who think it doesn't matter so much seem to have not experienced much release.

So I think AT chairwork with the right teacher is a very powerful fast way of creating an adjustmnt in the ANS. The major effects of it are gone soon but somenefits of these methods come from rebalancing the ANS effects linger for days. Other things learned in AT elp it to last longer too - such as inhibition and direction but I view these as too weak to get serious psychophysical change without tablework and much more so chair work. I keep meaning to try to learn chairwork better. I still do the table workthing I learned in AT but with eyes closed and to induce deep relaxation in people - which is supposedly a nono in the AT! I say it gives people a taste of meditation - how the mind changes when the system calms - a demonstration I was actually first given by an AT teacher stepping a bit out of the orthodoxy (which I like). .

To me the way of looking at psychophysical change in the AT world is rather out date, not taking account of research into yoga and meditation. But then I believe the best benefits of mind/body methods come from rebalancing the ANS and all the holistic changes associated with that - ie. it is de-stressing and plenth of people don't believe that!

.

If you read anything about yoga/meditation you'll see its coming ever more to be seen like that.   You'll also see all sorts of other beliefs associated witlh them and much confusion and vagueness. I think it is very instructive to compare different methods in terms of the actual methods but also the cultures and beliefs around them - there are major similarities.....

bye for now.

Keith.

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[Michael Mossey]

Hi Keith, I know we've discussed this idea of releasing tension and you seem to think that I think it's not important.

I've been having some lovely Feldenkrais sessions recently, and the change in how I experience my body is profound. Relaxed is one way to say it, but it's beyond relaxed. My body is softer against the floor, I'm more supple and flexible, and there's a spaciousness and freedom that is a true relief from suffering.

I would say that this change in my experience of my body is very, very important. Similar to this Buddhist group, I think this change comes from changing patterns in my nervous system (i.e., mind). I also think that the way in which it's beyond "relaxation" is very critical. That's one reason, perhaps that I or AT teachers don't usually speak in terms of going straight for relaxation, but instead letting it occur as a result of changes in the nervous system, changes in habits. That is how something beyond relaxation occurs, and how it spreads into other patterns of my life.

Anyway, if I describe how crucial this change in my experience of my body is, hopefully that makes it more concrete.

Mike

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[noel]

List, Keith

'Authority'. What authority Keith? Do you not remember that forum discussion on who 'owns' the Technique. No -one owns it anymore than someone owns the Theory of Relativity.

I can remember a young guy had booked himself in for a TT course and was shattered. I managed to cajole him by pointing out that by the time you learn to 'fudge' teacher creds and establish a practice you might as well do the damn course!

FM knew what he was doing in avoiding it becoming 'fossilised' and continued to evolve.

As for chairwork, I'm trying to reverse engineer and work out where we'd be if FM faced the same restrictions we have today.

Let's not forget there are two not one desperate races afoot. One is to come up with a vaccine. Crucially, in parallel, understanding Immunity. 

I would add a third unrecognised by the modalities here -save one. Learning and unlearning attitudes and habits appropriate now but not necessarily embedded in our culture.

NoelH

Lots of positive energy here. Now if we can just work out how to entice some of those lost sheep to 'drop in'. 

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel

It would be I interesting to know how things would be if FMA was around today. He might be endorsing yoga! My guess is he would have come up with a method a bit different and would have taken account of mind body research. 

You are right no authority owns the technique but it has a strong rather closed culture around it in my view. And it has a professional teaching qualification that carries some weight. 

To me AT without lots of hands on work is not as effective as other methods that are designed to stimulate mind body change without hands on. 

When I had learned to use my breath I could get the effects of a hands on lesson by standing up and sitting without hands on. My breath inhibiting the overreaction to the stimulus is standing instead of the teachers hands. That was the first time I achieved a seriously liberating degree of control.

I could come home after a depressing day and un-depress myself.  This was the time my vertigo started reducing so I knew permanent psychphysical change was happening. So AT didn't need a teacher! But then I started getting the same benefits by other means designed specifically to work without hands on work or group mirroring of changes. 

The lesson for me was to make the most of what was available. But being aware that I might have got the wrong end of the stick as various people kept telling me....

I'm sure if you Google the AT world will have people taking it online. 

There's a revolution in yoga meditation teaching going on. I'm trying to do K Yoga teaching in my own little way and many things don't work so well online. 

Heather Mason of the Minded Institute is becoming very succssful at online training and pushing mind body science to back therapeutic yoga. She's really taking things forward right now. 

Cheers

Keith

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[noel]

List, Keith      

There's a standard response to questions  about awkward concepts; how do you place a model boat in a glass bottle, etc,etc. Answer 'with difficulty'.

I feel that way in trying envisage (as our teachers must do) explaining 'lightness' and 'upwardness'. When you did your self -chairwork you at least had the advantage of having experienced them. You had a benchmark.

Maybe it is 'with difficulty' but I can't think of a more important time for Technique teachers to transcend their restrictions and give their words the power of their hands.

People (authorities?) talk blithely about 'the new normality'. A weakness of our species seems to be that we think that if we can label something then we must understand it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I gave the example of the Boris J christening not to raise a contentious issue. I was simply highlighting the power of fear which we are all prone to.The constructive control integral to the Technique has woven into it (might I suggest) those anti -instinctive features vital to successfully implementing the new order/normality.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike,

Indeed it is 'beyond relaxed'.- depending how you define relaxed I guess Quite often if I talk to a person about meditation they will say 'I can relax. I read a book or watch TV'. If I say there are degrees of relaxation - I can show you something way beyond that' they say something indicating I'm being silly. The word has different meanings depending on experience.

Mind body tecniques are holistic. In Alexander's words we are a psychophysical unity.

> I'm more supple and flexible, and there's a spaciousness and freedom that is a true relief from suffering.

That's psychophysical unity isn't it. Freedom in the body is freedom in the mind and vice versa.

I'd still love to know if Alexander really said 'All belief is unnecessary tension' as I have never seen a reference to it. I think this is related to the buddhist idea of 'attachment'. Beliefs weaken as the body becomes supple and flexible.

It's nice to hear of good experiences in this busoiness.

Cheers

Keith

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

You can't really teach the AT with words. They say you have to give the pupil a .new experience of good Use' with your hands.

Once I had experienced this many many tmes and realised part of what the hands did was not only 'inhibit my overreaction to the stimulus of standing' but also calmed my ANS. Once I could calm my ANS quite a lot by myself I didn't need the teachers hands any more.

What I could do for myself was nowhere near whatI could get with a good teacher though.

But I could change my mood dramatically. I would come home rather depressed after a days failed job huntin and in 45 to 60 minutes I could 'un-depress' myself.

Later I learned techniques whereby I could achieve this change much faster.

The way the teachers hands inhibit over-reaction in the pupil makes AT special in the way it works.

 Also the way table work quite directly brings release.

Without a teacher the other techniques work better -for me at least. .

Cheers

Keith.

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[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike

On Wed, 20 May 2020, 07:36 Michael Mossey, <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm glad that we have some agreement about "beyond relaxed."

It's nice to agree indeed!

You have mentioned that you think some people don't focus on muscle relaxation or don't achieve a lot of it, but I think your readers can get the idea that you are talking about this surface relaxation.

No actually. I was talking about the idea of relaxation being different. A person who claims to be able to relax with a book has probably not experienced hypnotic style calming of the ANS. And I think there is a big difference between that with muscle/fascia release and without.

To me muscle tension relaxation is related to a state of mind. And when that is permanent release it is a permanent change in the mind.

." What I'm hoping you can see is that although I focus on the "learning model," (i.e. the changes are learned and come from patterns changing in the nervous system), I still feel and enjoy similar deep changes in the experience of my body, and I value those changes very much. So I don't think there's much difference between these two perspectives

There is a big difference there I think. My idea of it is that it is not learned by training. You do something that stimulates psychophysical change indirectly. Alexander talked of his procedure...

Yes, and in fact when I say I work with "learning in the nervous system" -- well think about it, the nervous system is both mind and body. Nerves are everywhere and their state has direct influence on the body..

The autonomic nervous system is hardly distinguishable from the body tissues,

I think the signals that come via proprioception are part of the subconscious mind. The nerves carry the messages.  Yoga works on the tissues to alter what signals the nerves send to the mind. So does massage. AT hands on work alters the operation of the ANS quite directly. 

I'm not sure but I think we have very different ideas here.

I'm in a minority I fear. Nishijima said Zen is about the balance of the ANS and how many teachers did he leave behind! 

K

[noel]

List, Keith

An observation in general from education (I have an Honorary degree) 

The long term aim (even in primary/elementary) of the teacher is to 

equip the pupil with the skills and knowledge to carry out exploration of his 

own.

With that in mind do you think the teacher training course developed skills or 

awareness that carried over into your involvement with bodies of knowledge 

outside the Technique? To the converse maybe you felt you needed to 'break free' 

of the restrictions of AT.

NoelH

[Michael Mossey]

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 2:27 PM Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike

On Wed, 20 May 2020, 07:36 Michael Mossey, <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm glad that we have some agreement about "beyond relaxed."

It's nice to agree indeed!

You have mentioned that you think some people don't focus on muscle relaxation or don't achieve a lot of it, but I think your readers can get the idea that you are talking about this surface relaxation.

No actually. I was talking about the idea of relaxation being different. A person who claims to be able to relax with a book has probably not experienced hypnotic style calming of the ANS. And I think there is a big difference between that with muscle/fascia release and without.

To me muscle tension relaxation is related to a state of mind. And when that is permanent release it is a permanent change in the mind.

." What I'm hoping you can see is that although I focus on the "learning model," (i.e. the changes are learned and come from patterns changing in the nervous system), I still feel and enjoy similar deep changes in the experience of my body, and I value those changes very much. So I don't think there's much difference between these two perspectives

There is a big difference there I think. My idea of it is that it is not learned by training. You do something that stimulates psychophysical change indirectly. Alexander talked of his procedure...

By learning I don't mean training. And certainly don't mean book knowledge. And I don't mean something you aim for directly.

To make this clearer, right now I'm learning piano, French horn, cello and violin. (I have a piano and trombone background and wanted to get more familiar with orchestral instruments.) Take piano... I have in mind a conscious intention as I play, but I also discover myself doing many things that I never planned. My fingers seem to have an intelligence that was built up in the background, unconsciously.

Feldenkrais "awareness through movement" (ATM) lessons involve learning through planned repetitions of sequences, but the learning happens in the background and isn't something you plan or control. It happens "indirectly" (you like that word). Those changes in my experience of my body that I described? I never planned them and never aimed for them.

I get the feeling that the fascia model used by Hellerwork is very similar to the learning model used by Feldenkrais in terms of the effects they are going for and the understanding of body structure, so I think they are alternative models of similar changes.

AT is another model that produces similar changes, with its own focus---on inhibition  of habits--also a learned skill, and from what I can tell the learning and intention is more explicit and conscious in AT. I think AT teachers make it pretty clear that inhibition and direction are learned skills that you intentionally use.

Mike

 

Yes, and in fact when I say I work with "learning in the nervous system" -- well think about it, the nervous system is both mind and body. Nerves are everywhere and their state has direct influence on the body..

The autonomic nervous system is hardly distinguishable from the body tissues,

I think the signals that come via proprioception are part of the subconscious mind. The nerves carry the messages.  Yoga works on the tissues to alter what signals the nerves send to the mind. So does massage. AT hands on work alters the operation of the ANS quite directly. 

I'm not sure but I think we have very different ideas here.

I'm in a minority I fear. Nishijima said Zen is about the balance of the ANS and how many teachers did he leave behind! 

K

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[noel]

List, Keith

You seem to me to me K to keep on 

ignoring that central feature of the 

Technique I continue to promote -namely 

that we cannot simply go back to the past 

as it was. Every commentator I've come 

across expresses the same view. 

They may not phrase it as such but what 

they are saying is -we learnt things 

instinctively (sub consciously). Putting 

it back together again would be so onerous 

we might as well accept change. 

BTW consider the handshake. Males to some 

extent would 'size up' each other on 

whether it was firm and strong (or limp). 

That doesn't and won't happen because we 

FEAR the wrath of an invisible agent!

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

Sorry I have been missing your point!  I agree with you.

There are certainly plenty of people thinking the current changes forced upon us provide a chance to examine our behaviours and values and adapt in a more concious way to make the world a nicer place. I really hope that happens.

However I note Alexander said it would require people to use his technique to change the way they think, act and react

The same sort of thing has been said by yogis and meditators for thousands of years too.

Confucious wrote something about 'If ony I had found one prince....' . He wanted to pursuade someone to govern for the good of the many rather than their own wealth and power. 

I have been rather surprised in my new job how much they push 'mindfulness' as part of staff well-being.  They tell us what they teach is backed by sound research and ever many more business people are using it. So maybe this will be a new  route where mind body practices start to get wide-spread acceptance. Mind you it gets on my goat when the teachers say things like 'Exercise like jogging and yoga is good for you'!.

Anyhow I think quality hands-on AT lessons beat weak mindfulness courses any day - but they are more expensive to deliver. So beter aimed atthe high salaried sector.  

Do you now about ESG Ratings - google if you don't. One of the things offering hope for the futture... A more compassionate capitalism...

Cheers

K

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[Franis Engel]

As far as thinking skills go during these "interesting" times, IMHO, this site series has it nailed in the way that it describes challenges and shortchanges in the way things are being dealt with on National levels. This article uses the topic of the news to discuss the assumptions of thought and how thinking skills affect decisions, successes and mistakes.

Thinking about the Spread of the Coronavirus (4) – Daily Thinking Routines

Thinking about the Spread of the Coronavirus (4) – Daily Thinking Routines In the Coronacrisis, the lack of drive is due to flawed thinking. Unfortunately, there is no reason at all to be...

When Marj Barstow asked us as a class long ago to describe in one word what Alexander Technique was, my one word was "Thinking."  (Hers was "movement." - But she said "thinking comes before movement" so that's why I picked the word "thinking.") I chose the word "thinking" as my expression of what A.T. was because I imagined that "movement" expresses whatever thinking skills are going on behind it, because of the thinking... Also, actions show the assumptions of thoughts, their motives and the elements or factors of reasoning.

Franis Engel

 

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[Franis Engel]

I think the "Real" problem facing A.T. right now is  - given that we teachers cannot be within six feet of anyone until there's a vaccine - what are all the traditional A.T. teachers who have always taught by touch and were only trained that way going to do to make a living? Teaching by touch has been a main-stay for A.T. teachers for a long time. Some A.T. teachers never learned to "see" coordination in others, they were trained to have hands-on to sense what is going on with a pupil... Plus A.T. teachers work for themselves, so they're not going to be able to get any "unemployment," right? I'm not sure how things like that work in other countries than the USA. It's going to be an extended time until there's a vaccine...perhaps more than a year. What are A.T. teachers doing with this CoronaVirus issue? Working at something else? Bringing down the learning curve of teaching remotely from the rest of us who know about doing Skype/Zoom/Jitsi and other forms of virtual learning?
Franis Engel

 

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[noel]

Good to hear from you Franis,

Much of the discussion here centres on 

'Fear'. My proposal is that the emphasis 

on behaviour lends a (marketable)

legitimacy to AT which in more 'normal' 

times would not be so apparent -enough to 

overcome the obstacles imposed on an 

intimate modality ie; the intensity of the 

(Pandemic) required learning experience 

subsumes fear but respects its validity 

Yes? 

However Keith eschews fear altogether. Let 

me list the stress factors he assures us 

he handled adroitly. 

(a) the pandemic arrival brought 

adjustments -(b) your daughter contracting 

it was of course fraught (c) possibly you 

were retrenched -presumably stressful and 

(d) you found ready(?) employment 

considerable relief. 

All handled simultaneously!

Should we all be learning yoga?

Then again aside from afore mentioned 

marketing potential, social -distancing 

etc state requirements, fear itself has a 

legitimate place y'think

NoelH

[noel]

OK, well I hope Franis gets back to us. My first AT teacher gave me breathing exercises

which he had obviously derived from FM himself. They lend themselves to 'remote'

teaching.

Keith; those stress factors you delt with simultaneously -that's impressive

NoelH

[John Appleton]

Dear Franis and others,

In these times, where remaining remote seems the healthy options I would recommend Posture Release Imagery. But then I would strongly recommend it for even when people have access to whole bunches of hands on AT.

John Appleton

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From: 'Franis Engel' via AlexTech Mail List <alex...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:03 AM
To: AlexTech Mail List <alex...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [alextech-list] Re: Conscious, Constructive Control in uncertain times

 

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[noel]

List 

Thanks Keith, that was pretty comprehensive. That was most considerate of your offsprings to wait till the worst was over to inform you.

Giving some background to how things are panning out in Old Blighty is appreciated as well.

One of the (many) changes the virus may yet bring about is to come up with an alternative to the nursing home format where people in these crisis situations are 'sitting ducks'.   

Mike; I tried to be discreet but not discreet enough. My apologies . 

 

John; Only just came on your comment. So what is your take on meeting the challenge of 'pandemic fatigue'?

NoelH 

 

 

 

 

.

 

[noel]

Guys,

So what do you think of my 'manifesto'. I'm not asking you to necessarily agree or disagree with the contents

How do I format it in a way to enter the public conscious as say an LTE?

Did you know Bill Gates is behind Covid19? That apparently is one of the memes doing the rounds of social media. The WHO is calling it Info/Demic because of the huge amount of disinfomation being disseminated on social media.Yet another reason to drag my heels on following the the crowd to facebook where the 'centre of gravity' in the AT world now seemingly lies.

Even more compelling;'Medical experts are confronting a growing number of people falling ill after relentlessly trawling social media for answers on the virus and the economic and social fallout'.

Get that? If you weren't sick to start with then by the time SM has messed with your thinking you will be.

So sit up class(I meant of course 'sit well') today we are going to learn two more pandemic words to accompany self -isolation and social -distancing etc, etc

They are; 'doomscrolling' and 'doomsurfing'. As they imply some net users become so fixated on bad tidings associated with c19 that even the smallest ray of hope is immediately swamped by gloom.A psychology professor sums up the whole -people are being drawn into the bad news and fear. You can't get away from the anxiety stress can you?

Well yes professor, provided you stay within the boundaries of behaviour you can  to a large extent modify this so that your responses are neither unrealistic nor succumb to the irrational. People have been using the methodolgy I'll put forward  for nearly a century 

[Lutz Golbs]

Hello list,]

what an interesting conversation. Alexander invited us to explore the unknown, while the current inculcation for behavioural modification of government and "Chief medical officers" suggests to avoid the unknown to a hitherto unknown degree. There's about 380 trillion viruses existing (science doesn't really agree on the "aliveness" of viruses) in each of other bodies, ten times more than the bacterial load each of carries, both outnumbering cells with "our" DNA. Each of us contributes more to the distribution of foreign DNA and RNA than our own own, even if we tried to have more offspring than Ghengis Khan.

The virus has created more modification in habits than the entire cohort of AT teachers, yet, as Noel pointed out, this change of habits is entirely motivated by fear. Being in a state of fear causes physiological stress, and remaining in this state for prolonged periods of time will having lasting detrimental effects to our health. Fear is a natural reaction of immediate danger, however, culture allowed those who like to domesticate the human species to use it as a weapon/teaching tool. 

When I witnessed people on the street adhering to the newly implemented "social distancing" norms, sadness overcame me. I also noticed fear and distress of those around me. Right now, free range chicken have more freedom for social interaction than human beings. Just like mutual assured destruction in 60s and 70s, AIDS in the 90s and 90s, terrorism in the period before Corona, the virus is a meme representing an invisible danger capable of traumatising entire societies.

We haven't found any vaccine against the common cold, transmitted by a Corona virus. The flu also poses a lasting problem, with vaccines only addressing last years mutation of it. Luckily, the current numbers of Covid deaths still is far below the death toll of the Hong Kong Flu, which, by the way, wasn't fought by massive fear mongering and enforced, governmantally subscribed behavior modification. Of course, we can listen to the child of a Rockefeller associate, who got rich by spurious business practices in the business area we now call Information technology. However, the reason why we call the corona virus a pandemic might relate to the payments a foundation, which primarily focuses on the interests of the family it is named after, gives to the WHO, exceeding most national contributions. 

Vaccines provide a business opportunity, and it surely can only be a coincidence that Bill Gates warned the world for years about a potential pandemic, and steers a spiderweb of foundations and companies which would earn trillions of dollars to vaccinate the world while at the same time, biometrically marking each vaccine recipient. Just like cattle or pets, Welcome to a brave new world.

While it's difficult to assess the danger covid-19 poses as yet, the combination of business shutdown, social distancing and the resulting stress can be modelled. 2020 will see a 20-30% increase in suicide, most likely a similar increase in domestic violence, and will make poverty the new middle class. AT does away with micro-managing one's movement to life. RIght now, governmental micro-managing what individuals can and cannot do exceeds the nightmares science fiction authors came up with.

Forward and up, my friends. Now is the time to study your habits of fear, and which parts of society do nothing but systematically trigger them. Hunger and war still kill more people than the virus did, and the same people/systems maintaining this cruel game now tell how to behave. Will you be domesticated, or attain conscious control of yourself?

//l

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[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

Current times can indeed be understood well in terms of a population controlled by the herd instinct being increased in power by fear. And thatfear being exploited by leaders and marketing people.

The AT would indeed do many people a lot of good in helping them to reduce the effect these things have on their functioning. You say these ideas are a hundred years old but they go way back before then I think.

Looking at the way yoga is ever more being used as therapy to treat trauma including that related to the virus I wonder where we would be if AT teachers had pushed more for the AT to be used in a similar way.

You mentioned 'habits of fear'. I think the fear that bedevils people comes from psychophysical maladjustment - something much deeper than habits. Did you read any of the stuff about Antonio Damasio's theories of how emotion is generated? I got a chance to ask Heather Mason of the Minded Institute if his theory on emotion had any credibility and she said yes.His theory gives a very good explanation of how mind body methods release fear from the system. When I was in AT school I was sure the dramatic reduction in my anxiety was linked to my reducing muscle tension. Similarly the reduction in fear of my future as I carried on using other techniques.     

Stay Safe,

Keith..

PS Its good to hear from a few others from way back. I hope you are all doing well.

[noel]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 2:13:50 PM UTC+11, noel wrote:

Hi Guys

Thanks for keeping the forum flags flying. Stuttering the domain of The Technique etc.

An eminent UK politician was asked what was most challenging about politics. His reply,' Events Dear boy Events'. I doubt that has been ever more true than now. What sort of universal law is this 'thing' obeying?

What does seem clear is that until we have a vaccine our only real defence lies in modifying our behaviour. Yet this too has the potential for peril. It's hard to imagine Government wielding more power. The populace acting through fear is ready to do as it's told.In a more ideal world directions would be given in a calm and reassuring manner. A rough time line at least as to such dictatorial power would be given.

Some behaviour modifications might be beneficial (at least in future pandemics). Others are too problematic and need to be discarded as soon as practicable. A 'silver lining' is too blasé for such an insidious organism (or is it a mechanism). Yet a methodology which encourages conscious, reasoned modification surely proffers advantage in a world awash with instinctive, fear driven reaction.

NoelH

[noel]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 2:13:50 PM UTC+11, noel wrote:

List,

 

Good to hear from you Lutz. Why don't we make you our T.I.C (Teacher in Residence)? 

You can add us to your CV as; The Institute for the Advancement of 

Comprehensive Living. Or even more humble and self effacing; Mankind's Last Hope!

Seriously though the challenge posed by 

Pandemic Fatigue is very real would you not agree? As you say, once the fear 

factor is gone people become indifferent -which is not in anybody's favour is it?

I find that allowing my head to go forward and up gives me an incentive to come back

 to social -distancing, etc. Do others report this is the case?

Rather than blind adherence

 

Addendum

Journal of the Nth American Menopausal Society reports a study of 140 thousand 

woman over 14 years-they found that depression and cynicism increased risk of 

Type2 diabetes. There seems to be a subtle interplay of factors here.

In the present circumstances the search 

for a vaccine is of course paramount. however it is to be hoped that in due 

course similar diligence will uncover the mystery of why some people (testing 

positive) display, mild or even no symptoms at all

NoelH 

.

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Lutz,

I hope things are good with you. You raise a lot of points...

You seem to believe some of the so called conspiracy theories about Bill Gates!  And talk of the virus being used to stoke fear in order to repress the people.

This situation highlights how crucial belief is in human activity. We all have different degrees of faith in institutions, in science, in religions and spirituality. It seems clear to me that some people will readily discard a belief when presented with evidence against it. But many will not and the ones who won't change beliefs don't see any difference between the source of their knowledge and the sources of knowledge of the people who try to be more 'scientific' or rational. These days I think all belief can be traced back to faith. I have faith that our edifice of science is fairly sound and that rich people who try to do good are usually doing it out of motives that include genuine compassion. I know people who think science is mostly fraudulent and people like Bill Gates act from diabolical ulterior motives. I like to think if I saw enough evidence of my beliefs being wrong 'd change them and I guess the others think the same.

All this stuff about belief came up for me in my AT teacher training as at first I believed pretty well everything I read about the AT, then I came across some people who showed me it was a bit more complicated and then I stopped believing parts of what I read but kept believing other parts and was on a quest to find someone to show me the real truth. Failing in that I came to see that only science could untangle such a mess, but that mind/body methods are so complex in their workings that science will untangle it very slowly.

So now I see us as being differently 'wired' in the matter of faith and belief, then we acquire experiences that cause us to build an edifice of beliefs from foundations upwards and that edifice can be rejigged in some people more than in others.

You could sum this up as "Humans tend to believe a lot of s*&t.. But not me!".

So logically - everything I believe can potentially be shown to be wrong,so am I ready for it?

Cheers,

Keit.

 

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[noel]

List

OK Guys; I have to say that I'm not at all confident that Lutz will take up the offer 

of TIR of our illustrious little group. 

We'll see. 

Oddly enough though I seem to recall a forum discussion on Vipassana Yoga. You and Lutz, Keith, were both involved but whether you reached agreement (or decided to agree to disagree) escapes me. I can do 

a search and try to put it together if you like.

You raise a valid of point of course about the established provenance/age of Yoga far exceeding that of the Technique.The difficulty you face I'd suggest is that so 

many of these 'mindfulness' mental gymnastics claim yoga inspiration that even your own odyssey becomes lessened. The somewhat arcane nature of the AT acts 

as a shield.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 10:33, noel <humphri...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

Oddly enough though I seem to recall a forum discussion on Vipassana Yoga. You and Lutz, Keith, were both involved but whether you reached agreement (or decided to agree to disagree) escapes me. I can do 

a search and try to put it together if you like.

Maybe best left to lie in the past!

You raise a valid of point of course about the established provenance/age of Yoga far exceeding that of the Technique.

 

But yoga is also much more closely integrated into western medicine and science than the AT is. People have no problem re-packaging it to suit the current culture and beliefs. There are ever more western versions too - Pilates, Trauma Release Exercises,

 

The difficulty you face I'd suggest is that so 

many of these 'mindfulness' mental gymnastics claim yoga inspiration that even your own odyssey becomes lessened.

 

Many people in the worlds of yoga and meditation like to make it a 'mystical' thing that somehow gives them access to a superior plane of existence and that their method has some superior quality that other methods lack.. That's how I view much of the AT world - but I see it's changing.  

Many others quite happily say there are thousands of variants of these things and no one knows enough to understand them all. My " own odyssey becomes lessened." due to this being my belief! So what? I tell people yoga makes happiness come much easier than it used to. But then happiness doesn't mean so much any more! The yogi tells the religious person 'This yoga will bring you closer to your God'. To the secular spiritualist 'This yoga will make you spiritually superior" and  to the scientist "This yoga will remove your tension and neurosis - leaving you more like a cat".  For the scientist no big ego trip - if you weren't a stressed up mess you wouldn't need it!

.

 

The somewhat arcane nature of the AT acts as a shield.

 Indeed - Alexander made it so by using vague language and his followers lapped it up and it created an enduring 'closed' culture. One of the things that shocked me when I started going to meditation classes was that the AT world was more 'arcane' or 'mystical' than this particular buddhist group was.

I didn't have a particular problem with this arcane view of the AT but more with the lack of people trying to 'de-mystify' it when there were plenty of people in the yoga/meditation world doing so.

The best example of this was in the claim that AT is not a therapy - it is something much bigger than that. Whereas the yoga people's attitude was that yoga is a big complex thing that can have therapeutic value - and now here it is used in the health service for psychotherapy and lower back pain therapy. That doesn't stop other people treating yoga as some cosmic thing but it also puts the method in the hands of people who can use it to reduce suffering.

I think AT could be used therapeutically if studied properly and it becomes possible to identify teachers that get the best results (ie. thos who like FMA got relatively rapid improvements in Conditions of Use). It would be more expensive than things like yoga but I suspect may be sufficiently more effective for many people.

By the way if someone is doing " 'mindfulness' mental gymnastics" I think they probably aren't doing a mind/body method! As the Chaan buddhists say "There is no sense in using thinking to solve a problem that doesn't exist in thought".

I would add that the problem is your defensive over-reactivity and the resulting imbalance in the Autonomic Nervous System". 

Now I am going to go and read some more about the AT jargon on that site I posted.

cheers,

Keith.

[noel]

Letter to the Editor,

XX (columnist) makes some humorous (yet pertinent) observations on the formation of habit -especially in times,like now, of turmoil. 

Forgotten somewhat by history, F.M. Alexander (listed by his pre war peers as one of the 200 most influential Australians) took

 the science of habit formation to a new level of investigation.

In a world 'awash with fear' the way we are forming new habits -social distancing etc -would have 

stimulated the most intense interest both from FM and those trained as teachers of his eponymous Technique.What happens if C19 

returns for a second or even third wave? Will we suffer pandemic fatigue? 

Lessons from one trained in the Technique will help ensure that extraneous side 

effects do not predominate. Rather as teacher and pupil collaborate these are integrated into 

a conscious learning process which subsumes unhelpful degrees of anxiety.

NoelH

[noel]

Guys

I've made my response  to your comment on this C19 thread Keith because I see a 

(possible) connection.It may be that chair -work provides some 

sort of benchmark for you. For me it provides a sort of 'magic'. In this case 

the magic is transitioning through space. 

For the most part people seem unaware I'm using myself differently. Occasionally 

however they do and generally it seems to be my egress in and out of a chair that 

they notice. They can sense that there is more involved here than simply sitting or 

standing.

So the connection with C-19?

Shopping malls are not the hubs they were. People are still 'leary' about 

congregating in numbers. It seems to me mall providers are looking for ways to 

bring life back. Perhaps they would welcome demonstations. A win, win for the 

Technique y'think.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel

The magic of AT chairwork. Indeed I think most people I met in my time in the AT universe liked it being 'magic'. Being me I tried to spot the trick behind the magic!

When I read an article by an AT teacher speculatng that mirror neurons were involved it made sense. So then it was what is being 'mirrored'? And what was different in the system of an AT teacher that meant the mirroring going on in chairwork was not going on when a non-AT teacher tried to do it.

And what got adjusted during chairwork. And did it last. And how could I get this magic without a teacher to guide (or 'work on') me?

So in all my 'answers' the magic is still there but for me there's a lot of common sense and psychophysiology too. And the magic is not all contained in one mind/body technique but a whole load of them   

When you talk of the fundamental nature of habits I think more of them as being layered on top of our basic hard-wired reaction systems. As Dr Barlow wrote in his book as you 'unpeel the layers of the onion' the power of habits reduces. But you can't unpeel the reactions that underpin those habits, you can only reduce their strength.

Stay safe and free of unnecessary worries!

Keith

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[noel]

Another 'wacko' ; Why is it always UCL Keith?

A study by by UCL might have relevance to chair -work. Some thousands of subjects involved 

At age 50 they were given 3 assignments.

(a) rise from an armchair. (b) rise from armchair and simultaneously 

give a firm handshake. (c) stand on one leg

It was found that the subjects fell naturally into groups

; those who succeeded without effort, those who succeeded 

but with difficulty and those who struggled to 

complete even one of the activities. 

Now the follow up.

Fifteen years later (retirement age?) they were given the 

same tests. The A group (no difficulty) as before. The B group some 

with difficulty, some unable. C group no change. 

So there seems to be an inflection point -in these 

activities -where our future seems decided.

This leads to an intriguing possibility. Could we with carefully calibrated 

activities push back the inflection point to our forties or even our thirties?

NoelH

[Franis Engel]

Yes,I'm still here... Fear... a handy emotion to be able to refuse reaction to! As far as I know, it's A.T. that offers effective  tools to refuse reactions going off unsupervised. (Well, there's religious values - but A.T. works without religious values attached to either the reactions or their underlying emotions.) 

Also, I wanted to address Kieth's paragraph...as he & Doc Barlow wrote:

"When you talk of the fundamental nature of habits I think more of them as being layered on top of our basic hard-wired reaction systems. As Dr Barlow wrote in his book as you 'unpeel the layers of the onion' the power of habits reduces. But you can't unpeel the reactions that underpin those habits, you can only reduce their strength. "

Keith

As far as my experiments have gone, to the extent you can get to the moment right before you were going to fire off the habit - you'll be able to sense the original (usually fearful) motive that put the original habit into place. Once you experience this emotion and the motive for you to have the habit in the first place, you can craft another more constructive solution to address it. As you put that strategy into place, it turns out that it's possible to completely transform the nature of that reactive habit - for good!!

But you're both also right - if you don't make it back to the origin of the emotion of that habit, the best you can do is to mitigate the habits' intensity. (For instance, if the habit was created pre-verbally.)

Franis

 

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[Michael Mossey]

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:49 PM Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

So in all my 'answers' the magic is still there but for me there's a lot of common sense and psychophysiology too. And the magic is not all contained in one mind/body technique but a whole load of them   

When you talk of the fundamental nature of habits I think more of them as being layered on top of our basic hard-wired reaction systems. As Dr Barlow wrote in his book as you 'unpeel the layers of the onion' the power of habits reduces. But you can't unpeel the reactions that underpin those habits, you can only reduce their strength.

Stay safe and free of unnecessary worries!

I would need to dialogue with you more to better understand what you mean by this, but I'll answer from a Feldenkrais perspective. Every behavior of the nervous system can be trained. Feldenkrais lessons create a kind of structured "mindfulness classroom" that enhances learning and gets deeper in the nervous system. 

When I say "training" I don't mean the thing that most people would assume, which is that they would assume you are practicing a specific way of moving with a specific intention. That's not Feldenkrais. 

Not only can the nervous system be trained, it's an eager student, always ready to absorb new experiences and improve its functioning.

It seems like learning is embedded deep in animals -- and get this: plants. Watch a documentary on how slime molds learn behaviors and what's mind blowing is that they teach the behavior to other slime molds.

Perhaps peristaltsis (however that's spelled) can't be trained, although there's probably a way using feedback. I know heart rate and blood pressure can be trained. We know brain waves can be trained.

Mike

[Keith Bacon]

Hi all,

Just a quick one on my lunch break....

This talk of fear made me check out a '"buddha quote". It's a fake but a good one for me - it matches my experience....

Buddha was asked: “What have you gained from Meditation?” He replied: “Nothing.” “However”, Buddha said, “let me tell you what I lost : Anger, Anxiety, Depression, Insecurity, Fear of Old, Age and Death.” ,

https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/buddha-was-asked-what-have-you-gained-from-meditation-the-buddha-replied-nothing-at-all/

A key word is '"lost". It iimplies the negative emotions went away as a result of indirect means - not by directly training the mind to think differently. For me the first big emotional change was a reduction in boredom and anxiety - that happened during my year in AT training school before I got into the yoga lark.

regards to all

Keith

[Michael Mossey]

Can you give an example of something that would be "directly training the mind to think differently?"

Would that be something like stopping anger by having the intention to stop anger and trying to stop anger?

 Mike

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike

Hope you are doing well. And all the rest in this nice community!

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 23:12 Michael Mossey, <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can you give an example of something that would be "directly training the mind to think differently?"

Not sure if I can.

I'd say learning a skill. You practice and you think differently. You stop thinking about mechanics and techniques in detail and think at a higher level and trust the lower level things to help. But you practice the thing and the change in thinking is an outcome.

Gaining experience of the world helps.

Two things that get profound changes are growing up/aging as the entire state of your system changes

and undergoing psychophysical de-stressing ( changing Conditions of Use) which changes the systems that underpin lots of our thinking..If you feel different you think differently.

. 

Changing thinking is largely an end not a means. That's how I interpret Alexander's ideas about indirect means .But as we work by feedback loops it's going the other way to some extent.

> Would that be something like stopping anger by having the intention to stop anger and trying to stop anger?

I'm not sure that's a good strategy. Lots of writings on mind/body things claim there is a better way  but such means are indirect...

regards

Keith

[Michael Mossey]

Hi Keith, you seem to misunderstand my question. You mentioned in a prior post that it's wrong or not effective to train the mind to think differently. I'm trying to understand what you mean by this, so I'm asking you to give an example, which would presumably be something *not* to do. You seem to know very clearly what you don't want to do, so I'm asking for an example.

Mike

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[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike

Well all the things that Alexander wrote of that his technique gave us via indirect means.

For me anyway. Others think it comes from directly changing thinking but this is the Manner versus Conditions of Use debate I think.

All the advantages of yoga meditation which come Iindirectly from the methods.

For example Alexander Technique hands on work or yoga sessions can reduce anger far more effectively than any attempt to think differently. 

The ever more widespread uptake of evidence based mind body techniques in psychology is evidence for this I think.

Regards

Keith.

[Michael Mossey]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:21 AM Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike

Well all the things that Alexander wrote of that his technique gave us via indirect means.

For me anyway. Others think it comes from directly changing thinking but this is the Manner versus Conditions of Use debate I think.

All the advantages of yoga meditation which come Iindirectly from the methods.

For example Alexander Technique hands on work or yoga sessions can reduce anger far more effectively than any attempt to think differently.

Can you give me an example of an attempt to think differently? What does that mean?

 

The ever more widespread uptake of evidence based mind body techniques in psychology is evidence for this I think.

The number one evidence-based therapy method is cognitive-behavioral therapy, which is pretty accurately described as "an attempt to think differently."

I actually don't find CBT helpful.

Can you give a concrete example of  what it means to "attempt to think differently"?

 

Regards

Keith.

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike

Attempts to think differently...

I must be more positive. I am bountiful I am blissful I am beautiful. I am calm relaxed and confident. 

God loves me. I feel.compassion for myself. I feel.compassion for the world.

I think culture affects thinking much more powerfully than attempts at self suggestion. 

I think there is research that shows hypnotherapy added to CBT works better than CBT alone. 

I assume the increase of evudence based mind body techniques in western psychology is based on evidence. Do you look at any of that stuff? I get most of my info from The Minded Institute. They claim these things are an effective addition to existing therapies. There is even some research into their use with chronic pain but far less than I would like. And after Dr Barlow and Progressive Relaxation a big lack in study of muscle tension which disappoints me but I can see why.

Cheers and hope the virus situation is harming you. 

Keith 

[Michael Mossey]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 3:03 PM Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike

Attempts to think differently...

I must be more positive. I am bountiful I am blissful I am beautiful. I am calm relaxed and confident. 

God loves me. I feel.compassion for myself. I feel.compassion for the world.

I think culture affects thinking much more powerfully than attempts at self suggestion. 

I'm wondering if when I mention that behavior of the nervous system can be trained, you think I'm referring to affirmations. Or when an Alexander Teacher or meditation teacher says the mind or brained can be trained, you think something similar. Meditation teachers love to say the mind can be trained. I'm wondering if that evokes this idea of affirmations for you, or if you understand that meditation teachers, Feldenkrais Teachers and Alexander Teachers are referring to something else by training the mind, nervous system or brain.

Regarding research into mindbody systems in particular, I'm not very up on it. I'm aware of mindfulness research, both supporting it and suggesting that certain people have an increase in distressing experiences. Meditation teachers themselves say that mindfulness is contraindicated for certain people.

Mike

[noel]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 2:13:50 PM UTC+11, noel wrote:

Guys (including Franis, obviously)

It seems to me there is no more need for theorising, temporising or anything else. 

The clear and present danger is with us right now. What is needed is a co -

ordinated response which 'plays' to the strengths of the Technique -namely its flexibility.

 

Accordingly take exercise -power walking. What I plan is a vid which shows the 

accepted PW version but also a 'muted' one -can be practised waiting in a queue. So

 on for social -distancing,  etc

You see my strategy here Franis? These are govt mandated requirements but we can 

subsume the anxiety inducing aspects by focusing on creativity.

My personal response is to promote the potential for AT more in the last weeks 

than the decade hence - the cliched 'where are your olympians' conspicuously absent.  

 

Something I would appreciate is a bird's eye view of how teachers are adapting. My 

reason for asking is that my 1st teacher (trained by FM) gave me breathing 

exercises . These are no real surrogate for hands on but as I think Keith would verify 

yoga has long found they add another dimension to verbal cues -share?.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike,

I agree the mind can be trained. Practising the piano is training the mind and rest of the nervous system.You can practise graceful movement and good posture too. You can practise all sorts of things.

But Alexander was quite clear what he taught was not simply training the mind. Many Alexander Teachers seem to act like it is a system of training - these are I think the ones that emphasise changes in Conditions of Use. For many others it is about indirect changes which come via mechanisms unknown. The idea of a Primary Control seems inadequate these days.   

These iindirect changes involve something in our system that changes lots of things including making people graceful and have better posture - and it is not as a result of directly training the nervous system. Now with Polyvagal Theory ad lots of other study at least some or part of the mechanisms of psychophysical change are being understood.

> Regarding research into mindbody systems in particular, I'm not very up on it.

There is so much of it these days. Science is starting to understand bits of the world of psychophysical change. I like it as it is starting to separate what works somatically from what is hokum and wishful thinking.

They don't study meditation under that name - more say that this procedure produced these effects and via these mechanisms. I find this useful - for example in my AT training days 'breathing exercises' were rather disparaged but when I started doing them I found they could have profound somatic effects - so that was confusing. But now we have lots of studies showing they are effective at reducing anxiety etc. So the science helps me be more sure about my view.

But there is so much not understood that there is still plenty of scope for beliefs - that AT is quackery, that it is what many AT teachers say it is or that it is what I think it is  - a system that rebalances the ANS - or most likely a mix of all those things.

That meditation is training the mind, that it is nonsense, a placebo effect,  or processes that rebalance the ANS. That you must not be uncomfortable or it is best to sit through discomfort and pain. 

There is a lot we can't prove. When I started in this field direct experience was pretty well the only way to learn - what science there was was rather hidden. Now we have a huge amount of relevant science - which I would hope would encourage people to seek the experiences which is what changes you.

cheers

Keith

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 at 07:40, noel <humphri...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

reason for asking is that my 1st teacher (trained by FM) gave me breathing 

exercises .

I'm most curious what these were.FM taught the Whispered Ah as a way of checking your state but I've seen teachers using it in the way a yogi would - to make themself feel good.

 

These are no real surrogate for hands on

Oh yes they are! (in my experience)

 

but as I think Keith would verify 

yoga has long found they add another dimension to verbal cues -share?.

Hands on work does as does breath work, slow movement, staying completely still etc etc.

K

 

[Michael Mossey]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 5:08 AM Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike,

I agree the mind can be trained. Practising the piano is training the mind and rest of the nervous system.You can practise graceful movement and good posture too. You can practise all sorts of things.

But Alexander was quite clear what he taught was not simply training the mind. Many Alexander Teachers seem to act like it is a system of training - these are I think the ones that emphasise changes in Conditions of Use. For many others it is about indirect changes which come via mechanisms unknown. The idea of a Primary Control seems inadequate these days.  

Keith,

I think the idea you're missing is that training the nervous system can be indirect. It's pretty clear from my many Alexander lessons that the teachers were training my nervous system, but smooth movement or upright posture was not being trained directly. What's being trained is inhibition.

Likewise, it's pretty clear to me that mindfulness is training. Most meditation teachers refer to it as training, and I took a mindfulness course similar to the ones given to people who are being tested scientifically for the benefits of mindfulness. The whole course was about developing skill.

But... it's not skill at directly generating the desired outcome. The skill of mindfulness leads to better well-being (in some people) but indirectly. 

Also the Feldenkrais Method is clearly training, but what's being trained is a reduction in inner resistance or obstacles to smooth movement. As far as specific outcomes, they range from easier movement to greater well-being and performance in general, but usually the outcomes are *discovered* rather than being aimed for. You would probably say that about your own experience, right?

So it's pretty clear that you see "training" and "indirect" as diametrically opposite, but they aren't really even related. You can have training/indirect, not-training/indirect, training/direct, not-training/direct as all possibilities.

 Mike

[Michael Mossey]

Hi Keith,

Never mind my last response, I actually think there's no way to know in what way a Feldenkrais lesson is training and how it affects one's life without having experienced one. It's a non-intuitive form of learning, yet it has shown me better ways to teach my computer science students and to learn piano. It demonstrates the conditions for which learning is most effective and helps to train away counterproductive habits. But that's going to mean nothing to someone who hasn't experienced it.

Perhaps I don't get your point either, but the way you describe it, it matches the kinds of habits that are seen as counterproductive in Feldenkrais and to my understanding Alexander as well. Your thinking also matches my old thinking as well and I've learned how it limited me.

For instance, this idea of pushing to make fast progress and the idea that the greater the pain, the greater the gain. That's part of our culture already, and what I've learned is that those things are the very habits I seek to change.

You've interpreted me as advocating for slow change because I don't counsel pushing for fast change. But that's a misconception ... not pushing for change is the fastest way to change, at least in my experience. Feldenkrais lessons produce immediate changes. A person steeped in our culture is not going to be able to make sense of that because it's very ingrained that you need to work hard to make big changes.

To clarify, I have experienced a lot of change through pushing. Yes, it's possible to work hard and notice a difference. The problem is that it's not a difference in my central habits.

Regards,

Mike

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[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike,

I think we are getting hung up on the meanings of words here. I agree with Alexanders writing about the AT being Indirect Means for change.

On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 20:08, Michael Mossey <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

But... it's not skill at directly generating the desired outcome. The skill of mindfulness leads to better well-being (in some people) but indirectly.

I agree. Except I would say meditation is not training in 'mindfulness', It is in part training to cultivate inner awareness in order to rebalance the ANS using physiological mechanisms that boost the PNS and inhibit over-reactivity in the SNS. And (somatic) yoga is training in techniques to get results faster.  

 

Also the Feldenkrais Method is clearly training, but what's being trained is a reduction in inner resistance or obstacles to smooth movement. As far as specific outcomes, they range from easier movement to greater well-being and performance in general, but usually the outcomes are *discovered* rather than being aimed for. You would probably say that about your own experience, right?

Yes - partly. So you state a desired outcome and have procedures to indirectly 'gain' it. To me understanding the mechanisms involved increases the chance of being more efficient. 

I think a lot of so-called 'esoteric' practices follow that line. They understood quite a lot of the psychology and physiology involved and sought ways to speed up change by acting more effectively. AT chair work is I think quite a direct procedure and highly efficient. Table work is also but not quite so powerful. But AT explanations of them are too vague for my taste! These things seem fairly direct to me because of my (claimed) understanding of the mechanisms involved. But to someone who has no knowledge of them it will seem less direct.    

 

So it's pretty clear that you see "training" and "indirect" as diametrically opposite, but they aren't really even related. You can have training/indirect, not-training/indirect, training/direct, not-training/direct as all possibilities.

In the AT world I think they are related. I can train to get fit quite directly and I can measure my fitness quite directly. But if I want the benefits of the AT I 'train' differently. I focus on the procedures and the ends come indirectly. Unfortunately as the mechanisms and outcomes have been so vaguely defined many people 'train' without getting much outcome and this is very sad.Also many people could be helped by AT and other methods if there was clear proof they worked. That's why I am such an avid supporter of scientific study.   

Keith.

 

[Keith Bacon]

Hello again Mike,

On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 at 02:28, Michael Mossey <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

Never mind my last response, I actually think there's no way to know in what way a Feldenkrais lesson is training and how it affects one's life without having experienced one.

That's true. We tend to extrapolate from our own experience and understanding. Since we can't experience everything we need a strategy and a readiness to abandon beliefs. 

 

It's a non-intuitive form of learning,

Do you get any sense that you are changed by something that is not learning? I would say fundamental systems in me adjust and that changes my 'mind' because what I perceive as of my mind is built from processes and states of my body. 

 

yet it has shown me better ways to teach my computer science students and to learn piano. It demonstrates the conditions for which learning is most effective and helps to train away counterproductive habits. But that's going to mean nothing to someone who hasn't experienced it.

Indeed.

 

Perhaps I don't get your point either, but the way you describe it, it matches the kinds of habits that are seen as counterproductive in Feldenkrais and to my understanding Alexander as well. Your thinking also matches my old thinking as well and I've learned how it limited me.

For instance, this idea of pushing to make fast progress and the idea that the greater the pain, the greater the gain. That's part of our culture already, and what I've learned is that those things are the very habits I seek to change.

Well I may sound a bit flippant about these things. Even the Dallai Lama was flippant when I heard him say High Tantric Yoga worked faster than sitting meditation. If I attempt to gain an end using my habit of trying to understand things and be efficient is that unhelpful end-gaining or wisdom? The answer depends on if it gets results. When I discovered yoga I thought 'the AT people seem to revel in the indirectness of what they do whereas the yogis went 'this is great but it works so slowly. Can we speed it up''?  

I asked a zen teacher about the idea of speeding it up and he said 'Our lineage is 4 or 5 hundred years old and every time someone tries to add something to speed it up it seemed to have bring problems than benefits'. 

 

You've interpreted me as advocating for slow change because I don't counsel pushing for fast change. But that's a misconception ... not pushing for change is the fastest way to change, at least in my experience.

Skillful means, Not end-gaining. People are not the same. Some people will put up with all sorts of things to get somatic change. There are methods for them llike the Kundalini and Tantric yoga I have done. There are people who get more deeper somatic change than me without putting up with such physical stuff. There are people who just want immediate symptoms alleviated. 

I think we might agreetly that training hard to directly increase equanimity isn't going to work. Or that to be more Stoical doing stoic meditation is going to work better than reading lots of philosophy books.

 

> To clarify, I have experienced a lot of change through pushing. Yes, it's possible to work hard and notice a difference.

> The problem is that it's not a difference in my central habits.

So how does it indirectly weaken or break habits?  How do we stop people repeatedly acting self-destructively and having negative perceptions? Maybe start a new thread to place your answers....

- - - - A little diversion

" Over time, repetitive thoughts weave grooves in our brains, making it easier for our minds to follow this established path over creating a new path. These grooves are called samskaras. Good or bad, our thoughts are always creating grooves in our brain, and our thoughts are actively creating our reality."

I got this from Wikipedia - a modern lack of understanding that Samskaras are psychophysical. Some people knew that thousands of years ago yet not many people seem to know today! Alexander wrote about it plenty too. 

regards,

Keith.

[Michael Mossey]

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 2:07 AM Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike,

I think we are getting hung up on the meanings of words here. I agree with Alexanders writing about the AT being Indirect Means for change.

On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 20:08, Michael Mossey <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

But... it's not skill at directly generating the desired outcome. The skill of mindfulness leads to better well-being (in some people) but indirectly.

I agree. Except I would say meditation is not training in 'mindfulness', It is in part training to cultivate inner awareness in order to rebalance the ANS using physiological mechanisms that boost the PNS and inhibit over-reactivity in the SNS. And (somatic) yoga is training in techniques to get results faster.  

Hi Keith,

Are you saying that mindfulness teachers don't understand their own technique? Or are you saying that when you meditate, you use the technique you describe?

You have a technique, and mindfulness is another technique that involves training in a skill. This skill has specific components, which I won't go into because I don't think you can understand it without experiencing it. If you want to broaden your horizons, try taking an online mindfulness class.

You asked in the other post if I ever experience something going on besides learning when I do Feldenkrais. I'm not sure, but I see learning as so powerful that if something good was happening as a side effect, I would get more out of it by training or learning to produce that thing. A part of Feldenkrais is learning to calm over-reactivity. I think of it like a creature with a simple nervous system, maybe a worm with only an autonomic nervous system. That worm can learn to relax if a scientist gives it the right experiences, perhaps gives it a reward for tiny steps toward relaxation and puts it in a situation which is conducive to learning from internal states.

Have you read about experiments in which a person learns to control an individual muscle fiber with the help of feedback? That's the kind of unconscious learning which is going on in Feldenkrais work.

You often talk about wondering if there is something you don't know. I think you should try either mindfulness or Feldenkrais work - I think those things would give you a new perspective.  There are two things I notice in your theories that could be expanded. First is the idea of states. Feldenkrais and mindfulness work more with dynamic patterns than states. The desired outcome is not a state, but rather a dynamic pattern of learned responses.. *this* happens and you respond with *this*. Discovering that pattern and improving it. The second idea is not thinking about what you're doing. When you described once that you use part of your awareness to reduce muscle tension while you are engaged in activity, I think about how Feldenkrais work often results in the ability to do things without thinking or reflecting on how you are doing them, which I think is a smoother experience with less internal resistance.

 

 

Also the Feldenkrais Method is clearly training, but what's being trained is a reduction in inner resistance or obstacles to smooth movement. As far as specific outcomes, they range from easier movement to greater well-being and performance in general, but usually the outcomes are *discovered* rather than being aimed for. You would probably say that about your own experience, right?

Yes - partly. So you state a desired outcome and have procedures to indirectly 'gain' it. To me understanding the mechanisms involved increases the chance of being more efficient. 

I think that you can understand some of the practical changes that happen from any method (they overlap with what you describe), but I don't think it's worth describing the Feldenkrais or mindfulness mechanism because you just have to experience it.

 

I think a lot of so-called 'esoteric' practices follow that line. They understood quite a lot of the psychology and physiology involved and sought ways to speed up change by acting more effectively. AT chair work is I think quite a direct procedure and highly efficient. Table work is also but not quite so powerful. But AT explanations of them are too vague for my taste!

What's vague about the AT explanations? They seem concrete to me. It does need time to practice and deepen your understanding.

Regards,

Mike

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Mike,

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 at 07:50, Michael Mossey <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you saying that mindfulness teachers don't understand their own technique? Or are you saying that when you meditate, you use the technique you describe?

I think it was DT Suziki who said only 10% of people in Japanese monasteries he visited were doing Zen as he understood it. So is it not feasible each group would have a different view of what Zen is? Just as AT can teachers differ quite widely in their ideas.  If I describe what changes with AT, yoga etc that is not describing the method that indirectly gets those changes.

 

You have a technique, and mindfulness is another technique that involves training in a skill. This skill has specific components, which I won't go into because I don't think you can understand it without experiencing it. If you want to broaden your horizons, try taking an online mindfulness class.

I've done quite a few classes of all sorts already! You don't seem to think I've made the best of 15 years of all sorts of classes and experiences!

 

You asked in the other post if I ever experiece something going on besides learning when I do Feldenkrais. I'm not sure, but I see learning as so powerful that if something good was happening as a side effect, I would get more out of it by training or learning to produce that thing.

Sometimes I think if your method is not getting indirect changes that are really obvious it might be best to try something else. Some of see the 'side effects' as the desired outcome. Joe Armstrong claimed Alexander and early teachers got much faster improvements in Conditions of Use than most later teachers. I'm with him. 

A part of Feldenkrais is learning to calm over-reactivity. I think of it like a creature with a simple nervous system, maybe a worm with only an autonomic nervous system. That worm can learn to relax

Can it 'learn' intellectually if it only has an ANS? It is purely reactive. We are reactive in that basic way and we have all these extra layers on top which make us much more complex and get us into a frightful mulle (Dr Barlows phrase I think).. But our problems of stress lie most deeply in those reactive systems and that is what mind/body methods deal with. I believe intervening at that level is more effective than any other 'No sense in using thinking to solve a problem that doesn't exist in thought'. 

> Have you read about experiments in which a person learns to control an individual muscle fiber with the help of feedback? That's the > kind of unconscious learning which is going on in Feldenkrais work.

That is very related to yoga/meditation. Training to be aware of proprioception gives you the feedback without a machine and you can sense muscles deep inside that it's hard to access with a machine.. Learning to control muscles helps you to release their tension. But you can't control every muscle like that there are too many. So you use some of a myriad of higher level techniques that have been developed over thousands of years.

> You often talk about wondering if there is something you don't know. I think you should try either mindfulness or Feldenkrais work - I think those things would give you a new perspective.

I'm as unlikely to try what you recommend as vice versa. We've known each other long enough to see that I think! One to one work is a bit expensive for mel. But I'll try anything that's cheap!  I got a demo of Bowen work last year.And it definitely changed something I couldn't make sense of.

>  There are two things I notice in your theories that could be expanded. First is the idea of states. Feldenkrais and mindfulness work more with dynamic patterns than states. The desired outcome is not a state, but rather a dynamic pattern of learned responses.. *this* happens and you respond with *this*. Discovering that pattern and improving it.

When I talk of somatic state it is the state of complex a living thing.

That seems out of line with Alexander's idea of Indirect Change. But if learned improved patterns produce somatic change they work so nothing wrong with it.

>The second idea is not thinking about what you're doing.

The ability to stop the mind from thinking during meditation is a good skill I think. Suspend the breath and Shuniya! To reduce awareness to proprioception and breath and mental focus is one thing I do - its more awareness without thinking. I suspect to lose the proprioception is more advanced than where I am. 

But the Heart Sutra(?) tells us that during Samadi the Buddha was listening to Shariputras words and understanding them. Was he thinking? Or was he Aware?

There is aconcept of 'Meditating all the time' which I htink having anawareness and working on your somatic state during normal activity. I think Alexanders Thinking in Activity is a similar idea but the word Awareness makes more sense to me. Maybe Awareness Through Movement works towards a similar end?

>When you described once that you use part of your awareness to reduce muscle tension while you are engaged in activity, I think about how Feldenkrais work often results in the ability to do things without thinking or reflecting on how you are doing them, which I think is a smoother experience with less internal resistance.

I think that is any mind/body technique. You learn a procedure that changes you somatically. Usually the procedure involves a significant amount of directly changing part of the things that change by themselves holistically. That is why so many AT teachers used to evaluate yoga so naively - they thought things like relaxing and stretching and breathing exercises were only attempts to change things directly rather than triggers of indirect change. 

 

Also the Feldenkrais Method is clearly training, but what's being trained is a reduction in inner resistance or obstacles to smooth movement. As far as specific outcomes, they range from easier movement to greater well-being and performance in general, but usually the outcomes are *discovered* rather than being aimed for. You would probably say that about your own experience, right?

Right things do themselves in Alexander's words?

> but I don't think it's worth describing the Feldenkrais or mindfulness mechanism because you just have to experience it.

 

But there is a lot of science about this stuff these days. I've described the mechanism that underlies the indirect changes that all mind/body methods can produce when used at their best. It may be vanity but I kind of think I have experienced some amazing things that you haven't!  I guess you feel the same!

> What's vague about the AT explanations? They seem concrete to me. It does need time to practice and deepen your understanding.

https://www.alexandertechniquescience.com/general/terminology/alexander-technique-phenomena/ 

I am as pleased to see some AT thinking being dismantled as I am to see it in yoga / meditation.  Getting the mystical out of mysticism as someone called it. That still leaves plenty of magic bits where we can play with our beliefs. 

Cheers,

Keith

[noel]

Yes K,

Whispered ahh most certainly Keith and don't forget 'Monkey'.

Try this one: heels a comfortable distance 

out -back against a (sliding) wall.

Stay loose and free about the head & neck

Rise on toes arms level with shoulders, -

hands, fingers outstretched.

lower arms, slide down to a semi squat 

keeping the sense of pressure from the 

back against the wall.

Back to a normal stance, repeat This has elements of that little 

phenomenon we've all indulged of standing 

in a door frame, pressing backs of hands 

outward & stepping out to 'fly'

I'm still keen to run this vid idea past 

Franis. You might remember that I pointed 

out awhile back that shopping malls were 

in trouble -they are deperate for new 

ideas to bring back consumers. Headline 

from today's business review -'Pandemic 

Crushes Mall Values'.

NoelH

[Michael Mossey]

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:36 AM Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike,

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 at 07:50, Michael Mossey <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you saying that mindfulness teachers don't understand their own technique? Or are you saying that when you meditate, you use the technique you describe?

I think it was DT Suziki who said only 10% of people in Japanese monasteries he visited were doing Zen as he understood it. So is it not feasible each group would have a different view of what Zen is? Just as AT can teachers differ quite widely in their ideas.  If I describe what changes with AT, yoga etc that is not describing the method that indirectly gets those changes.

We've been over the idea before that you believe every method is the same "under the hood." I don't see any reason to believe this - but it seems so important to you. Do you have something invested in it? Would it challenge your feeling of competence if it isn't true? Would it make the world more complicated?

Yes, there are many methods labeled mindfulness. But there is a specific researched technique in several universities and taught by some very active teachers in the U.S. See this link: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/less-stress-clearer-thoughts-with-mindfulness-meditation/

The article barely describes the details, but what's important about this technique to me is that it's a dynamic technique. It's not about achieving a state, but rather a skill in relating to ever-changing states. This seems to be missing from your toolkit, which would not be surprising if you focus entirely on states and not on dynamic relations/responses.

 

 

You have a technique, and mindfulness is another technique that involves training in a skill. This skill has specific components, which I won't go into because I don't think you can understand it without experiencing it. If you want to broaden your horizons, try taking an online mindfulness class.

I've done quite a few classes of all sorts already! You don't seem to think I've made the best of 15 years of all sorts of classes and experiences!

I don't think you've done or absorbed a class in a dynamic technique.

 

 

You asked in the other post if I ever experiece something going on besides learning when I do Feldenkrais. I'm not sure, but I see learning as so powerful that if something good was happening as a side effect, I would get more out of it by training or learning to produce that thing.

Sometimes I think if your method is not getting indirect changes that are really obvious it might be best to try something else. Some of see the 'side effects' as the desired outcome. Joe Armstrong claimed Alexander and early teachers got much faster improvements in Conditions of Use than most later teachers. I'm with him.  \

This is a bit odd. I didn't say I don't get indirect changes. I said that all changes seem to be a result of learning. Do you think :"learning" is somehow conflicting with "indirect"?

 

A part of Feldenkrais is learning to calm over-reactivity. I think of it like a creature with a simple nervous system, maybe a worm with only an autonomic nervous system. That worm can learn to relax

Can it 'learn' intellectually if it only has an ANS? It is purely reactive. We are reactive in that basic way and we have all these extra layers on top which make us much more complex and get us into a frightful mulle (Dr Barlows phrase I think).. But our problems of stress lie most deeply in those reactive systems and that is what mind/body methods deal with. I believe intervening at that level is more effective than any other 'No sense in using thinking to solve a problem that doesn't exist in thought'. 

Of course it can learn, and of course it's not "intellectual." Plants, in particular slime molds, can learn, have memories and teach each other things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-2A8EOHo08

So certainly an autonomic nervous system can learn without using thinking.

 

> Have you read about experiments in which a person learns to control an individual muscle fiber with the help of feedback? That's the > kind of unconscious learning which is going on in Feldenkrais work.

That is very related to yoga/meditation. Training to be aware of proprioception gives you the feedback without a machine and you can sense muscles deep inside that it's hard to access with a machine.. Learning to control muscles helps you to release their tension. But you can't control every muscle like that there are too many. So you use some of a myriad of higher level techniques that have been developed over thousands of years.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that Feldenkrais is about trying to control individual muscles. It is connecting into an innate intelligence that can help you organize action without needing to think about it.

 

> You often talk about wondering if there is something you don't know. I think you should try either mindfulness or Feldenkrais work - I think those things would give you a new perspective.

I'm as unlikely to try what you recommend as vice versa. We've known each other long enough to see that I think! One to one work is a bit expensive for mel. But I'll try anything that's cheap!  I got a demo of Bowen work last year.And it definitely changed something I couldn't make sense of.

I believe I have tried something like what you do. I have extensive experience with a heart rate variability biofeedback machine that can calm the autonomic nervous system very effectively. It does help, but not in the same ways as Feld/Alex.

 

>  There are two things I notice in your theories that could be expanded. First is the idea of states. Feldenkrais and mindfulness work more with dynamic patterns than states. The desired outcome is not a state, but rather a dynamic pattern of learned responses.. *this* happens and you respond with *this*. Discovering that pattern and improving it.

When I talk of somatic state it is the state of complex a living thing.

That seems out of line with Alexander's idea of Indirect Change. But if learned improved patterns produce somatic change they work so nothing wrong with it.

How is that out of line with indirect change?

 

>The second idea is not thinking about what you're doing.

The ability to stop the mind from thinking during meditation is a good skill I think. Suspend the breath and Shuniya! To reduce awareness to proprioception and breath and mental focus is one thing I do - its more awareness without thinking. I suspect to lose the proprioception is more advanced than where I am. 

But the Heart Sutra(?) tells us that during Samadi the Buddha was listening to Shariputras words and understanding them. Was he thinking? Or was he Aware?

There is aconcept of 'Meditating all the time' which I htink having anawareness and working on your somatic state during normal activity. I think Alexanders Thinking in Activity is a similar idea but the word Awareness makes more sense to me. Maybe Awareness Through Movement works towards a similar end?

I don't mean not thinking while you meditate, but not thinking in activity. Thinking is an umbrella term here and really comprises any kind of narrow focused attention that's separate from your whole activity.

I actually disagree with Alexander on the idea of "thinking in activity" - it's easy to get obsessed with "working on yourself" and it can be fun to experiment. But I eventually learned that's a kind of obsession. Letting things flow works better.

Awareness Through Movement can be used in a lot of ways. It can be used for this narrow focused, slightly obsessed "working on yourself." But it can also be used to bring out flowing states. That's how I try to use it (as best I can).

This idea of working on your somatic state during activity seems slightly obsessive to me.

 

>When you described once that you use part of your awareness to reduce muscle tension while you are engaged in activity, I think about how Feldenkrais work often results in the ability to do things without thinking or reflecting on how you are doing them, which I think is a smoother experience with less internal resistance.

I think that is any mind/body technique. You learn a procedure that changes you somatically.

I don't know why you want all mind/body techniques to fit this model.

 

Usually the procedure involves a significant amount of directly changing part of the things that change by themselves holistically.

In ATM most of the changes happen by themselves.

 

That is why so many AT teachers used to evaluate yoga so naively - they thought things like relaxing and stretching and breathing exercises were only attempts to change things directly rather than triggers of indirect change. 

 

Also the Feldenkrais Method is clearly training, but what's being trained is a reduction in inner resistance or obstacles to smooth movement. As far as specific outcomes, they range from easier movement to greater well-being and performance in general, but usually the outcomes are *discovered* rather than being aimed for. You would probably say that about your own experience, right?

Right things do themselves in Alexander's words?

> but I don't think it's worth describing the Feldenkrais or mindfulness mechanism because you just have to experience it.

 

But there is a lot of science about this stuff these days. I've described the mechanism that underlies the indirect changes that all mind/body methods can produce when used at their best. It may be vanity but I kind of think I have experienced some amazing things that you haven't!  I guess you feel the same!

What amazing things have you experienced?

 

> What's vague about the AT explanations? They seem concrete to me. It does need time to practice and deepen your understanding.

https://www.alexandertechniquescience.com/general/terminology/alexander-technique-phenomena/ 

I am as pleased to see some AT thinking being dismantled as I am to see it in yoga / meditation.  Getting the mystical out of mysticism as someone called it. That still leaves plenty of magic bits where we can play with our beliefs. 

But you didn't really answer my question. Can you give me a specific explanation that seems vague to you?

 Mike

[noel]

Tried that activity?

An article centred on a lady who has made PTSD her raison d'etra.

 She was the victim of a violent assassination attempt. As such she

 has experienced the whole gamut of emotions from broiling anger to sadness

 to despair. She sees PTSD as being particularly relevant for those

 who pull through infection but who seem outwardly not greatly impacted.

However she also does not exclude 'secondary' impact -those who have

 associates or even just caught up in the whole uncertainty of the pandemic.

Guess that includes nearly everyone on the face of the planet!

 For myself I continue to be thankful for a methodology

 which is as relevant today as it was at its inception all those decades ago. 

NoelH

[noel]

Guys

The paralysis of fear -Now New Guinea is a fledgling nation, still to develop its infrastucture and resources.

 They were ill equipped to handle the virus (its advent was considered inevitable) but

 did their best to prepare -a large ward dedicated and a covid team well trained .

To little avail. When the first casualty arrived they panicked. In the confusion

 a team member became infected and carried it into the community.

This might seem to be irrelevant to a well established economy like say Australia. 

Not so. Even its economy has been tested to the limit. 

To try and help out another needy neighbour(s) -other Sth Pacific nations 

also dependent -an enormous ask. With other well resourced 

nations pressuring to 'help out' the implications are geopolitical as much as humanitarian.

NoelH

[noel]

Keith etc 

Boris wants to take you out to dinner Keith? How good is that! Of course your 

partner still has to pay -can't have everything. 

Seriously though I'm not able to think of a govt more keen to get the wheels of 

commerce flowing again. Especially do they want to see movements in those malls. Back 

to my old hobby horse of AT raising its profile. Does yoga seem interested in 

pressing its claim to public awareness? 

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 01:44, noel <humphri...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Boris wants to take you out to dinner Keith? How good is that!

Indeed. I bought a vegan sausage roll yesterday in one of the few cafes in my area that seems safe to go into. 

> Of course your partner still has to pay -can't have everything.

I paid this time!

>Seriously though I'm not able to think of a govt more keen to get the wheels of 

commerce flowing again. Especially do they want to see movements in those malls.

Yup and due to a mix of incompetence and callousness they aren't bothered if a load of old folks like us catch the virus and die.

So we look after ourselves and feel grateful we have an income and a degree of skill in mind body methods that makes it not so stressful as it might be!

> Back to my old hobby horse of AT raising its profile. Does yoga seem interested in 

pressing its claim to public awareness? 

If you mean are yoga people using the virus situation to increase its adoption. Yes indeed. The Minded Institute who 

I have a slight connection with have adapted their training to be online and streamlined it

to train people more quickly to deal with the epidemic of stress and anxiety caused by it.

Or if you mean on a personal level yes indeed as well. I think it is the same as with AT. When your nervous system is calmer your mental focus doesn't fix on things so much, So you can be doing things while maintaining awareness of other things too. Like standing in a queue thinking about what you want to buy while being aware of who is around and maintaining a safe distance. Unlike the man photographed in a shop standing way too close to the person in front. This man had a jacket with 'Virus Protection Officer' or something similar written on it. Another fine example was a man in a shop wearing a mask and gloves. His phone went off and he pulled his gloves off with his teeth to answer it.

I find looking at people's behaviour these days is a great lesson in awareness.

How some people try to keep a distance but lose it as soon as something excites them. How others act as if it can't happen to them or if it does it will just be like a mild flu. Also to study belief. I am astounded how some people I vaguely know through yoga have bought into some conspiracy theories. There is a view that malevolent foreign forces have targeted 'alternative groups' as gullible and good routes to distribute their lies. Awareness of how your mind works? Too busy lost in celestial planes to see reality directly without the filters of perception.

Keith.

[noel]

List, Keith

Alexander used to say 'if there's a crackpot in town he'll find his way to 

me'. The following I guess illustrates the problems faced by both AT and Yoga. In 

this case it's complicated by the fact the swami is friends with the PM

The government’s ayurveda ministry said it had only given approval for Mr Ramdev’s 

kit of tablets and drops to be advertised as an immunity booster. The kit includes 

“coronil” pills, which contain herbs such as giloy, marketed as “the root of 

immortality”, and tulsi, or holy basil.But Mr Ramdev’s initial guarantee his products 

will help people recover from corona virus has resonated with a fearful public. The guru’s kit is so sought after, it is sold 

alongside Gilead’s remdesivir on the black market, according to local reports.

Actually there's a certain irony here. When the virus hit India's biggest slum 

the Govt virtually gave up. In desperation they set up temporary shelters (1.5 mtrs 

apart) wiped toilet seats fastidiously and -numbers of infected cases have fallen to 

manageable levels. Herd immunity? Simple hygiene -Who knows? It sure shines a 

glaring light on Western govts 'at any cost' strategy

NoelH.

[noel]

List,

Some background to the vids I'm due to post. A young guy had been tasked with 

supervising the self checkout section. As a customer finished he was expected to 

wipe down the machine. Next he needed to place in its pile the 

spent basket and finally return to his central position. Instead of a few perfunctory 

actions however he had turned it into almost an art form! Deft wipes, swoop on the basket. 

Then long strides and twist on one foot -impromptu choreography..

So if he could give such flair to the mundane why not bring the creative impulses 

of teacher and student to the utilitarian requirements of social distancing, etc

NoelH

[noel]

That elusive quality of the concepts of The Technique again K? 

In reality I'd suggest that this focussing is just End -

gaining -a bit like 'speed meditation' or instant mindfulness

Let me turn this around and pose it as a question to you. When you did the AT training you would have come to it with a 

certain perception of what Inhibition meant. You'd likely read Use of the Self? As Alexander used the term he meant a 

methodology for 'opening up. a flowering and new opportunities. Did this come through or was it more a sense of 

restriction. That would have had a dampening effect possibly more so that monetary considerations.

BTW the appropriate term I think is 'telyologic' where 

something is described by its results rather than by having any intrinsic values.

NoelH

[noel]

List -LTE

Dear Ed

I find myself in agreement with most  of Terry's column. 

I have some reservations about his advocacy of certain (outlier) virus 

treatments but since he has 'skin in the game' (possible mandatory injection) 

he's surely entitled to an opinion. 

On the other hand he may find substantial support for 

other claims coming from Nobel prize winner and sociologist 

(Dr) Daniel Kahneman. The good Dr was lauded for his research 

marrying decision making on the frenetic stock room floor with more like animal instincts.

Strangely enough more than a century ago an Australian, F.M.Alexander, 

made it his life work to promote an akin discovery. In everyday life 

we all have a propensity to rely on instinct even when 

conscious decision making and rationality would be a better guide including to our wellbeing.

Covid 19 has a test awaiting all of us. This will still apply even if 

the vaccine (a) does arrive and (b) has all the seemingly 'magical' qualities

that we as a global community seem to be ascribing to it. 

Namely; if we have learnt pandemic protocols instinctively 

who is to say we can UNLEARN them. We are guessing 

and it maybe that the eponymous Technique he

 developed to unravel the complexities of conscious decision 

making (taught nationally and internationally) maybe more relevant than ever.

NoelH

[noel]

List, Guys

Quote from a leading sociologist. His suggestion is that the virus 

represents a new path which man must tread -just as surely as using 

the power of nuclear can never be 'undone'

We're at an inflection point like Hiroshima; the pandemic exposes 

the fragility of human existence and demands  powerful and coordinated response.

If indeed the global community is at an inflection point then 

by definition we as individuals face challenging options. Just as 

importantly we need the appropriate skill -set to consciously 

implement those options in our day to day decision making.

FM Alexander faced a similar 'journey into the unknown'. 

By dint of meticulous observation (cf his; The Use of the Self) he 

devised a methodology to enable any who followed 

to face inflection points with a degree of confidence.

NoelH 

[noel]

Guys

It seems to me Keith that u were doubly blessed. By 

delaying telling you about their infection, Emily 

and her partner spared you angst that other 

parents have to endure. The other aspect you're 

spared is known as 'long haul'. It's becoming 

evident that for some survivors the suffering is 

ongoing. As one succintly phrased it -it's like 

waking up each morning and finding you've been hit 

by a truck. Presuming it (the symptoms) do receive 

medical imprimatur some dark scenarios evident eg. 

will a vaccine need to be multifaceted? Will there 

be a new 'normality'. How will we find our way back 

to the 'old'. 

As you say your path through yoga has been 

convoluted. Retracing your steps far from easy. 

Not so if you found returning to the old (or'new') 

 normality facilitated by the Technique -like 

greeting an old friend.

NoelH   

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 02:01, noel <humphri...@hotmail.com> wrote:

That elusive quality of the concepts of The Technique again K? 

In reality I'd suggest that this focussing is just End -

gaining -a bit like 'speed meditation' or instant mindfulness

But how would you know without spending a long time giving the method an open minded try? Like you I tend to dismiss this method as something that doesn't reach the depths the AT does.

I have never heard the term speed meditation - is there such a thing?

 

Let me turn this around and pose it as a question to you. When you did the AT training you would have come to it with a 

certain perception of what Inhibition meant.

I had no such idea. I didn't have preconceptions - the first demonstrations I had of the AT were a most delightful surprise, even if they were demonstrating my 'failings'.

 

You'd likely read Use of the Self? As Alexander used the term he meant a 

methodology for 'opening up. a flowering and new opportunities. Did this come through or was it more a sense of 

restriction.

I hadn't read anything except a few web sites about the AT and they seemed to talk mostly nonsense. My wife pushed me into it to try to help me cope with the terrible stress I was suffering from. I never had a problem with the idea of 'opening up', I had 'restrictions' indeed I remember a more senior student saying my lot didn't cry enough. I remember quite often walking to the AT school and part of my mnid trying to make me walk right past the stairs and not go in- I always went in. .

That would have had a dampening effect possibly more so that monetary considerations.

There is no way I could afford AT training any more. I would have carried on if I cold have afforded it. That's why I spent so much time, effort and money (relatively) on looking for cheaper ways. In the end being forced to make that search turned out very well for me but I have no way of knowing what would have happened if I had carried on with the AT. I like to think I would have discovered the other things too. 

BTW the appropriate term I think is 'telyologic' where 

something is described by its results rather than by having any intrinsic values.

 Great word! Yes I don't give any mind/body method any intrinsic value. They all have cultures around them that I mostly don't buy into and the associated 'philospohies' all seem to be mixes of much the same ideas expressed in different ways. And they all share this thing that some people seem to think the philosophy is the method (wrong) and others think the method changes you philosophically (right)..

Results even internal to the world of the AT is not clearly defined and less so when considering all the mind/bod methods. Its an area where culturally agreed truth is much stronger than objective truth. And where there is objective truth it only describes bits of it. So plenty of room for debates....

Forward and up (I'm neat Mt Snowdon right now so up is all around).

Keith

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 02:18, noel <humphri...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Guys

It seems to me Keith that u were doubly blessed. By 

delaying telling you about their infection, Emily 

and her partner spared you angst that other 

parents have to endure.

Indeed. Her Mum worries a lot more than I do so it would have been her she was concerned about more than me.

 

The other aspect you're 

spared is known as 'long haul'. It's becoming 

evident that for some survivors the suffering is 

ongoing. As one succintly phrased it -it's like 

waking up each morning and finding you've been hit 

by a truck.

Yes she had 2 periods of weakness a month apart but thinks its OK now but also thinks there may be a long term legacy.

 

will a vaccine need to be multifaceted? Will there 

be a new 'normality'. How will we find our way back 

to the 'old'.

We adapt - I'm impressed how well people have adapted to this - although for many it's not that well! .

We forget the past even easier.

 

As you say your path through yoga has been 

convoluted. Retracing your steps far from easy.

You can only do each step of the path once. But since it's metaphorical you can skip between the paths. 

 

Not so if you found returning to the old (or'new') 

 normality facilitated by the Technique -like 

greeting an old friend.

I would like some more AT experience. I keep meaning to practice chairwork on friends. Due to lockdown I'm not doing anything hands on. Before my combination of  Yoga and hands on meditation seems to work well so that's what I did. I've had big changes in the last 3 months so have more time and money than I've had for a very long time so indeed to start exploring.

But I want to spend time in the K Yoga world to help those who are trying to keep the yoga going after the revelations about the psycho nature of the yogi that gave it to us.

If the AT world is struggling to get used to the more rational study of it, it's not much compared to what the K Yoga world has got going on. But there is this thing in common that the person who brings it is really into making themself a star and powerful. And a sizeable chunk of people tend to put them up on a higher pedestal than the reality deserves and tend to buy into the culture they create too readily. My oldest 'friend' is myself. I can come back to that using all sorts of techniques and can enjoy the people and cultures around those techniques for social reasons with no great loyalty to any of them. Generally I find the people in these areas very interesting and knowledgeable

Cheers

Keith.  

[noel]

You've covered quite a bit in your post Keith. I'll likely get back to you on it. One thing that 

did leap out was your daughter's on going concerns. There's a raft of modalities all 

claiming relevance in this area -including of course AT.

The web link is to that video I've made which attempts to suggest how a teacher might leverage 

mandated virus protocols in integrating conscious control. To that end each activity takes two forms 

e.g. power walking (exercise) but also a more muted form suited to say standing in a queue. This 

goes for each of; social distancing, self isolation, wash hands, 'bump' handshake. I've left 

the last activity open so teacher/pupil work out say distance driving or mask wearing.

NoelH

https://youtu.be/rmFXIIE2wWQ 

[noel]

List

I would like some more AT experience. I keep meaning to practice chairwork on friends. Due to lockdown I'm not doing anything hands on

The point is that chairwork methodology goes back over a century Keith. Covid is virtually the only game in town -helped by the prospect of a massive lockdown fine. The video actions preclude hands on in favour collaboration.

Take self -isolation; the action is akin sumo (or 'monkey'). The muted form reflects that with gently swaying. 

No -one owns the Technique. I'm not saying you should but you could tout yourself (legitimately) as a Conscious Control Advisor. Teachers need adaptability as much as the huddled masses. 

NoelH

https://youtu.be/rmFXIIE2wWQ 

[noel]

List,

Things don't appear to be getting any better in the Motherland. At least the fatality rate appears 

to have fallen off so you have that consolation. Lockdown on again off again must be pretty 

wearing.

Could I point you again however to that young guy who was my 'inspiration' for my vid. Charged with 

supervising the mundane self -checkouts he had choreographed his actions. Not spectacular but a 

refusal to be weighed down by daily grind. Human 

creativity to the fore once again.

NoelH

[noel]

List,

Awhile back I suggested that medicos were reluctant to accept the 'on goings' (consequences)

Just in case any might be inclined to think C19 only affects the elderly. Official warnings are now given to top tier athletes -the fittest of the fit. It talks about cardiac consequences, scarring of the lungs. Anyone who becomes infected requires extensive investigation with multiple specialists before returning to the fray.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

HI Noel,

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 02:22, noel <humphri...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The point is that chairwork methodology goes back over a century Keith.

 

The influencing of people's systems using hands on work goes back a lot further than that! But AT chairwork does seem to be completely new but I think a lot may have been done in the past that got lost.

> No -one owns the Technique. I'm not saying you should but you could tout yourself (legitimately) as a

> Conscious Control Advisor. Teachers need adaptability as much as the huddled masses.

That would not be my thing! CCCI is an interesting area where I think Alexander was likely somewhat wrong! 

I think it may have been a marketing idea - that he could teach Conscious Control of yourself. The ancient eastern teaching are more about how little we actually control and how our ego creates an illusory view of control. I'm much more in agreement with that idea. A big debate could be had about this because as a persons Use improves they act less self-destructively so appear to be more in control of themself....

cheers

Keith.  

 

[noel]

List,

Well K when the virus can overwhelm the best medical team to the president it says something.

My viewpoint is this. Daimler invented the internal combustion engine. It may have been inefficient compared to todays but that's not the point. The thing is it worked.

You don't have to agree or disagree with FM's rationale. The Technique works. I've been able to encompass the various protocols (hand washing,  etc) into my personal 'world space' without a sense of alienation -if you like 'living the new normal' rather than just talking about it.

So how has your own journey been? Have your own underpinnings  in yoga been of service.

Also I'm interested to know if there is an established follow up medical procedure for Emily or is she left to find her own path to wellness.

Just to make a Far Out point. It's been suggested that at a Republican convention some of the C19 protocols were flaunted -as if somehow they were of a Democrat bias. Many (including) myself) might suggest this was a result of confusing newness and unfamiliarity with political bias. Conscious Control largely negates this -the new and unfamiliar is not immediately suspect. How strange if somewhere down the track CC was elevated for what might (and might not) have impacted the free world. Lucky just you and I are reading this K -otherwise they might be calling the ambulance (wink).  

NoelH

[noel]

List,

Governments are stressing that there are no guarantees about a vaccine. What they do emphasise however is the need to continue social distancing and other new 'skills' we have acquired.

Now a new phenomenon has been evident in statistics. People have NOT been consulting their GP with the usual readiness.

The 'official' explanation for this is that they are avoiding Doctor's (contagious) waiting rooms. Let me go out on a limb here with a more radical yet in some ways more logical reason. Effectively you could say that the medicos are acknowledging the impotence of traditional curatives and placing the responsibility for treatment in the patient's hands. As this is sensed either consciously or subconsciously so the patient acquires an in built  resistance to surrendering control  on all well -being matters. 

NoelH

[noel]

List

So what is happening there K? First we have 

Boris bracing everyone that a vaccine may not 

arrive. Then we have health officials saying 

they are  training extra workers for mass 

innoculations. Then parliamentary colleagues 

saying that he was merely qualifying the time 

period involved???

NoelH.  

[noel]

For the first time in months there are no new cases reported. Any satisfaction the

nation might accord itself needs to be tempered by a least two factors. First

of all we don't know WHY this amelioration has occurred. Secondly until and

unless borders are open to travel and commerce we are living in a bubble.

It's an artificial situation.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Congratulations for your area Noel. 

In the UK its all going pear shaped as they say. It would be interesting to see how FMA would have analysed it.

One thing that is happening is people who were careful about the virus have got fed up and are going irrational. I cant beleive it has got this bad so therefore it isnt that bad. And then they take risks where  they werent before. Im astounded at the number of older people who are careless. 

My daughter has enrolled on an online into AT course so well see how that goes. Shes staying at the moment and weve been doing chair and table work and yoga too. Shes been teaching me stuff she got from her yoga teacher. 

And otber stuff as well. She wants to be an interdisciplinary expert. 

Enjoy what freedom you have!

Keith.

 

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[noel]

That's most interesting K. I'd like to hear more of the online AT course

if possible. In the meantime and despite the (perhaps) upbeat nature of

my post not everyone is optimistic. The CMO of another close jurisdiction

worries that vital time has been taken (stolen) from our youth. The temptation

to promote the credentials of the Technique through an LTE too great!

The (C)hief(M)edical(O)fficer of an adjacent jurisdiction rests uneasily with concerns about 

our youth. This though control of the pandemic 

is at a level where eradication is considered a possibility.

I thank her for her frankness and can only respond by citing my own experience where the 

Alexander Technique has been of invaluable help in negotiating the shoals of uncertainty.

"If we don't give them some hope and some 

ability to enter life, they're just going to be a totally lost generation going forward."

"I think that's where we've got to put as many resources as we can".  

It's the nature of politics is it not that the statement of one person gets weighed against 

that of another. For example Trump is ebullient in his claims of immunity to C19 -a sharp 

contrast to your own diffidence. You of course (with some justification) will rejoin that your 

summation is based on science rather than fantasy.

It's as perplexing as why the virus has (from a medical perspective) left us relatively  unscathed. 

Regardless the burning issue is how to project hope to our youth.

Whichever approach we take we have to 

acknowledge that it is behaviour which lies at the heart of our assessment.

The Alexander Technique (taught nationally and internationally) aids us in bringing our 

conscious mind more fully into the everyday. For example someone versed in AT can readily 

assimilate the virus protocols -hand washing etc. Some will argue we are aiding and abetting 

the decline of the democratic process by submitting to these decrees. A teacher of the 

Technique (3 yr training course) will posit they can be 'unlearned' with the same facility they 

were acquired. That's not of course to be 

dismissive of concerns that authoritarianism begats 'habituation'. As an example,

A young guy taxed with supervising the self -checkout stylised his steps, collecting 

discarded baskets, wiping machines, checking bags. Not beaten down by sameness but 

choreographing the mundane. Hope in and for our youth.

NoelH

Thank you for your time and for so frankly voicing your concerns.

BTW I'm not an actual teacher of the Technique -just a committed layman who would like to see 

the observational skills of teachers utilised beyond (by default) the performing arts.

[noel]

List,

So Keith any feedback? I think any on the list who've followed your

focus on Yoga would have expected some 'leakage" into AT with the

best will in the world when teaching. Or have you been able to keep the

 two disciplines at arms length.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel

My daughter has signed up for the online AT course. We did some chairwork practice last week. 

Its easy with her as she has had AT lessons and also did quite a lot of yoga in London before lockdown. Seems like the teacher is excellent. 

My ideas about what mind body work does started with AT training informed by Thomas Hanna's ideas. But as you know many in the AT world reckoned I had got it all wrong!

An AT teacher would recognise some of the hands on work I do as tablework. But we close our eyes and go into a deep state of relaxation/meditation which is deemed not the right thing in AT. Also I push it further into a place of emotional release than AT teachers tend to. I call this speeding up meditation. 

I practice chairwork on friends but am way short of AT teacher quality! Sometimes it goes really well others my nervous system gets messed up by theirs as I cant stop them heaving to stand up. Thats mirroring going in the wrong direction. 

But most of what I do is kundalini yoga. We used to say as taught by yogi bhajan but thats becoming a no-no now we know what a crook and abuser he was! I use the hands on work to speed up progress. Also for beginners to show them the way. Thats what they have to learn to do for themselves if they want or need to. Same problem with AT some want to learn how to change themself others just expect the teacher to adjust them and let the rest happen by itself. 

In AT teachers didnt talk of tbe physiology but in yoga ever more teachers explain in terms of HPA axis fight or flight ANS rebalancing and mirror neurons etc. Taking some of the mystery out of mysticism. 

Cheers

Keith 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/alextech/15ba3574-9b06-4327-a7d0-7d09a022cd66n%40googlegroups.com.

[noel]

A couple of points to be made K. First of all, how did we on

the forum not manage to cast our net wide enough to take

in Emily and of course other students of AT like her -I'm

thinking back to a time when many teachers contributed.

Perhaps we came across as too concerned with theory and not

enough with the practical implementation of the Technique?

Secondly, your description of a student as 'heaving himself'

i.e. 'helping' you with the standing procedure is one of

perspective.  Goddard Binkly in his diary of lessons with

FM indicates how even he (FM) struggled to get the concept

of Allowing across.

Sometimes he appeared to cajole -please let me show you how

effortless it can be. 

On other occasions authoritative I'm going to sit you -the

student response equally authoritative NO -followed by the

directions.

Sometimes seemingly sheer exasperation (from across the room)

-You can't help yourself can you? Why won't you trust

yourself to me.

NoelH

[noel]

Still interested to know K if your chairwork with Emily is aiding her online AT.

So what would FM make of this indeed. Just watched a documentary on tracing wellbeing down 

to the sub cellular level. Subjects carried out frenetic/frantic activities 

for six minutes. At the end analysis was done of the mitochondria -the powerhouses -of our metabolism. That showed that 6 mins was all that 

 was needed to bring about a change in their functioning. USE AFFECTS FUNCTIONING. Seems pretty plain to me. Yet probably it continues to be the most contentious implication of the Technique.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

I can only do chairwork with Emily when she visits which isn#t often and not at all under current lockdown, She and her friend love the online AT course.

Use affects Functioning is an interesting term. My take is that in AT how you Use yourself in this regard is in

1 - inhibiting reflexive tensing such as pulling the head back, gripping the floor etc

2 - acting with increased awareness of how you move

3 - being more aware of the sensations of moving

No 2 & 3 I think can be regarded as the same as yoga,Tai Chi and meditation where movement is involved. So No 1 is maybe unique to the AT. If you consider what you said about the movement (how the person Used themself) affects function could that not be a description of any mind/body method?

Movement with a particular directed mental focus triggers changes in the body more than the same movement without that directed focus. What that particular mental state is is hard to define, convey or teach someone. But in all methods there seems to be agreement that it is not trying to make something happen but allowing it. It happens without 'you doing it'. Non-doing. But we do something with our mind and body to allow it to happen. It's a curious business. Some people don't want to know what is going on at these depths or want explanations that skirt around the physiology but others study it and are starting to explain it. So Use does Affect functioning that is the AT words. The principles of triggering change indirectly are ancient.

Regards

Keith

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[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel,

On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 10:40, noel <humphri...@hotmail.com> wrote:

A couple of points to be made K. First of all, how did we on

the forum not manage to cast our net wide enough to take

in Emily and of course other students of AT like her

Hii Noel,

Emily is interested in a lot of things so no time for extras! Better she is doing or non-doing it! People moved to a Facebook group which is the way things are done these days. I didn't follow as I wasn't doing AT training at that time. This list is a historic curiosity!

It has sentimental value to me. Here I exposed my beliefs and got lectured and maybe sometimes harangued by proper AT experts. Beliefs about mind/body methods seem to be attached to very deep parts of the mind so having these challenged was really good for me. I was exploring the other methods and finding similar cultures there too - buying into the method but not a lot of the culture around it. . 

 

Perhaps we came across as too concerned with theory and not

enough with the practical implementation of the Technique?

I think I greatly annoyed a lot of people!

 

Secondly, your description of a student as 'heaving himself'

Autocorrect and little mobile phone screens! And end-gaining (or is it just being in a hurry) - not checking what I typed.

 

i.e. 'helping' you with the standing procedure is one of

perspective.  Goddard Binkly in his diary of lessons with

FM indicates how even he (FM) struggled to get the concept

of Allowing across.

The realities of the physiological/psychological changes are one thing. The theories behind them and the interoceptive experiences and interpretations of them are another. They say FMA talked less as he taught in later years. Is that because he realised he was actually adjusting their systems and for many they would not  learn how to do it for themselves but if he adjusted them enough it would help them. Somatic adjustment / rebalancing seems to last 3 or 4 days so with > 1 lesson a week a person can be on a steady path of change.  

Allowing/letting go is a difficult concept - it is best shown to people by triggering release in the body and them getting to see how that relates to the mind. The mind has strong defences against letting go so attacking those needs to come from a direction it has not practiced its defences. Something like that!

 

Sometimes he appeared to cajole -please let me show you how

effortless it can be. 

On other occasions authoritative I'm going to sit you -the

student response equally authoritative NO -followed by the

directions.

Different approaches for different people. Feldenkrais I think it was used to get hopping mad with people not grasping his explanations!

 

Sometimes seemingly sheer exasperation (from across the room)

-You can't help yourself can you? Why won't you trust

yourself to me.

Not everyone can. People who have been abused/emotionally mistreated can find it very hard to trust people. Lots of other reasons too. Most of us let go of some things but hit a buffer block) they won't/can't go beyond. Only the enlightened few go al the way!

Cheers,

Keith

 

[noel]

List A couple of questions come to mind, Keith. However you've more or less answered the 1st. Does Emily think AT is helping the recuperation process? Her fulsome engagement with the Principle testifies to that.

The second question relates to a comment you made early in the thread.You remarked on seeing people do 'ratty' things -that was in the 1st lockdown I can't imagine things would have improved in subsequent ones. Now I doubt there is an easy way to implement lockdown on/off (unless we all stay home for extended periods as you are able to justify doing). However my experience is that we can utilise AT to facilitate change. That draws The Technique into the whole area of prevention and which was always FM's vision.

Could I ask you to check out that vid of mine again. It was not meant as a blockbuster -in fact I could probably have used stick figures. It does however attempt to translate concepts into movement.

So Social Distancing (in its muted form) involves swaying over that 1.5m marker. In its more outward manifestation pointing legs, toes etc. This should, I'd hope, give a teacher material for making a Use assessment -perhaps not. I need feedback. Does Emily's teacher encourage interaction?

NoelH

https://youtu.be/rmFXIIE2wWQ

[noel]

Hey Keith -any more feedback on those online AT lessons. Are teachers developing a new

vocabulary I wonder. Emily finding the Technique has value in the recuperative process?

A local teacher has offered to 'digest' the vid (whatever that means)

STATs have almost doubled of late. Why not keep the momentum up.

NoelH

[noel]

https://youtu.be/0mOCTc7vCxg

List

A group of tourists were photographed enjoying surf and 

sun here. They missed family but would gladly take the 

climate home in a bottle. I've indulged in an AT lesson 

and am looking to corresponding on the wearing of masks 

in lessons (and the message it sends).

An LTE follows which covered a variety of perspectives on the pandemic

The weekend tabloid gave (to my mind) a fair assessment 

of the state of affairs. A lead article seems to answer 

the fears of Qld CHO -Janet Young that jobs for the 

youth have been crushed. Not so if we are judicious in 

our immigration policy.

Former PM whose voice  seems to have 

become more clear out of parliament -is cautionary. I'm 

sure TA would not mind  if I summarise it as "what shall 

a man give in exchange for his soul". If our redemption 

has meant mortgaging the hopes of our children we have 

indeed made a pact with the devil.

I would like to suggest another voice is relevant. Much 

emphasis has centred on the age factor of the victims. 

However less import on their condition as 'frail'. Many 

decades ago the late FM Alexander developed a (he named 

it eponymously) Technique for wholistic well being. It 

is not my intention to shill for the Alexander Technique 

here (although it was a factor in my decision to become 

a school teacher) but simply to suggest it can be seen 

as pointer to raising conscious awareness. We can learn 

and unlearn with equal facility. So obedience does not 

demand 'habituation' anymore than age must necessitate feebleness.

NoelH

[noel]

List,

Early in this thread I posited, Keith what was this virus after. You suggested it was simply obeying the laws of natural selection. But we have a problem here immediately. There's debate as to whether it is actually alive. It is after all just a sequence of proteins. However you may have a strong case after all.

The virus is mutating however not it seems as expected. Certainly it has become more transmissible but not it appears more potent

NoelH.

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel

Viruses do what they do. If they dont qualify as alive they are getting close.

Life at the most fundamental level is species eating other species and mating with their own! 

Viruses evolve as we have found out recently in the UK. It seems the goverment didnt realise this because they didnt have a plan when covid did....

Not much conscious control going on here! Or behavioural inhibition either. 

Ive been discussing and learning about belief lately. Something that started in my AT training when I couldnt accept the generally accepted notions about the AT and then the same in meditation and yoga. Socrates seems to have cracked it way back.

Cheers Keith

[noel]

Things change Keith. Not long back I commented that oddly enough you (via Emily)

were as close to C19 as I'd been. Now we have a major city in lockdown. Transiting it

(get to see family) is going to be a pain. If C19 wasn't central to my thinking it

surely is now.

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel

Bad luck. I hope you haven't got a more contagious version like we have here. We are under the most draconian rules so far. Too many people have acted irresponsibility including tbe government reducing lockdown fro  Christmas. Deaths are spiking now accordingly. On the otner hand stress of lockdown seems to be getting me some more pupils.  

Good luck

Keith

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[noel]

I'm all ears. So you've started your own business during lockdown -that's impressive.

Presume that Yoga is at the core of your teaching. Then 

again you may have 'distilled' elements from other 

modalities which you think have merit for de-stressing

A motivational piece!

So our work is not done by a longshot Keith. Whether it 

be promoting the virtues of Yoga or advocating for 

Conscious Control. An infinitesimal contribution but 

then our opponent is almost infinitesimally small. 

NoelH

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Noel

I haven't started a business. I'm working from home for a huge software company on a huge complex system that is hard work for my tired old brain! They realised companies were spending a lot of money doing due diligence checks to avoid doing business with criminals which risks getting them prosecuted. So my company did due diligence on the entire world and sells companies the results which saves them a lot of money and gives them better results - and makes my company extremely rich, but not me . The systems to do this are enormous Its the first excellent job I have had for 20 years - usually I work for political and moribund badly managed companies as thats what the UK specialises in!. 

I only had 3 or 4 paying oga students before lockdown. Now I do it for nothing just to get teaching practice and to have fun while doing my yoga. Normally yoga clases are 90 minutes - most of the changes come in the last 30 but via zoom classes are less intense (no neuron mirroring) and people don't want to do 90 minutes. So I have cut down to 45 minutes which has been aninteresting challenge. But a researcher told me they compared 2 x 45 minute classes with 1 90 minute class a week and 2 x 45 worked better! I think generally the effects of an AT hands on session or a yoga class last 3 to 4 days so that fits nicely! I had more people at the start as people were going crazy on furloigh or having lost their jobs, But I lost them as they went back to work or got a job! So now 4 or 5 regulars only. I'm no entrepreneur!  I'm re-reading about Hanna Somatics - lots of pandiculation is the main thing that distinguishes K yoga from others - along with esoteric type breathing patterns and things. After talking about AT with Emily I have looked at how to stimulate fear reactions that can be inhibited without the need for hands on table work. Some little success there.

Yoga or advocating for Conscious Control - Yogis bang on about Consciousness and awareness all the time too you know. As the mind stops racing into the future it becomes more focused on the here and now as well as the state of the mind/body.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/alextech/46c0ffce-1e99-4b1b-8cb0-4813a3bb01fen%40googlegroups.com.

[noel]

Let's not split hairs. The fact that you did not charge your clients is if anything MORE indicative of your 

commitment than (in my opinion) if you had charged them. 

Off Topic: I've come to the conclusion that digital tech is to some extent based on a lie. By that I mean that it 

sometimes purports to produce some end when in fact it produces something entirely different. Exhibit A -the 

password. (I'm ignoring face recog etc.)Now according to vendors they are giving you greater 

control of your acc. I would argue that many (perhaps most) lose facility with logic and numbers under 

pressure. So helpfully the progs tell you that you are given one more go -so the pressure is ramped up. 

Effectively they have outsourced the security issue to you.

The ultimate example recently surfaced. Likely you're aware that bitcoin has surged in value. There's a guy 

whose acc holds $37m -but he can't remember his password! My solution is that he should use the indirect 

method -focus on anything but bitcoin and get back to 

the mindset that led to that elusive. Your ideas ?

NoelH

[noel]

Oddly enough there seems to be more awareness of the long term potential of the pandemic in the business 

media rather than the general.Fund managers angst 'that mutations might outflank the 

vaccines'. They worry about Escape Mutations -those which develop during the (relatively) slow process of 

inoculating whole populations.

Another science spokesperson for a fund opines 'now is the time to back this technology as an industry OF THE 

FUTURE'. No 'one offs' or temporary here I'm afraid -an industry. The Alexander Technique has been changing and 

evolving over the decades. I recommend it as an adjunct to any future industry. Change is inevitable, however AT 

helps adapt but remaining resistant to authoritarian directive. 

In summary then I can see how those comfortable with the concept of ancient wisdom would lean towards the path of 

Yoga. However an industry bespeaks clarity and structure. AT provides that and if you can incorporate it can only strengthen the service you provide. This saga still has far to go. The effectiveness of AT has still to be properly tested.

NoelH

[noel]

List,

Vaccines may not be our magic bullet against COVID so let's consider a new path.

identifying that new path might well be what this whole 

thread has been focussed on.The author of that initial quote then goes on to lay out 

what that np might look like. To start with we must 

embrace it. No half heartedly seeing it as some mere 

backstop. The big concern he targets here is that the 

vaccine might alleviate the symptoms without eliminating 

the virus itself. Unless we take precautions we could 

become walking transmitters.

Reduced to its simplest we must learn to live with it -

nightmare or no.

The video I posted was primarily a suggestion for 

teachers of the Technique as to how they might 

incorporate C19 protocols into online lessons. For the 

general (hopefully) they offer a window, antidote(?) 

into overcoming pandemic fatigue. So achieved by 

learning a new skill which encourages calm and rational 

thinking even under pressure.

vid referenced https://youtu.be/rmFXIIE2wWQ

NoelH