Gokhale Pain Free Chair

[swingpete]

Looks like Esther Gokhale has put out a chair for healthy sitting.

http://egwellness.com/chair

What's some AT opinions of this type of chair?

I like the idea of no arm rests, and a slanted front of the chair with
grips.

However the traction ideas (you see her lifting herself out of her
hips and almost resting the ribcage on the back support) seem counter
to Alexander's ideas.

Any other thoughts here?

[Robert Rickover]

Galen Cranz, a professor of architecture at the University of California, Berkeley, author of "The Chair... " and an AT teacher has a very different perspective on chairs, sitting etc. 

It's not yet a podcast, but you can listen to an interview on this topic here: http://alexanderaudio.com/applications/chairs/

Robert Rickover

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[Lutz Golbs]

Hello list,

here's are some personal comments on the ideas about sitting from this video. 

Esther's explanation about breathing sounds upside down to me. She claims the spine expands during inhale, and gets back to 'normal' on the exhale. However, the facet joints connecting the ribs to the spine rather suggest the opposite movement - to create more space between the ribs the come closer at the vertrebral joints. "Gathering" the spine on the inhale, expanding the spine on the exhale.

"Stack-sitting" exaggerates the lordotic curvature. Deliberately tilting the hips forward sounds as useful as tilting the hips backwards to comfortably slouch. 

Whether the padded back support manages to keep the spine extended I can't consider without testing. As Esther correctly explains, once the intervertebral disks are released from pressure, they can replenish and rehydrate - that's one component that makes semi-supine so efficient. I doubt that the entire spine can relax like in semi-supine though.

Greets,

Lutz 

http://alextech.wikia.com/
http://twitter.com/evolvingmeme

http://smart-at.blogspot.com/

[sraj]

Hi Robert,

Interesting podcast. I tried out the 'high stool' idea, it is quite comfortable. But do you  sit like this for long periods of time (on a chair 1.5 times the normal height)? For instance, would you spend an hour in front of a computer this way?

Two Norman Rockwell paintings:

1) This is a self portrait. The stool is round and somewhat high. Seems OK for the purpose. Painting 1.

2) The stool is high, but subjects are sitting in the normal way. Painting 2.

Regards,

Selvaraj

[J F Messenger]

As Dewey might say :

"For a little while, he sits differently, but only a different kind of
badly."

On Apr 4, 6:25 am, sraj <sra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> Interesting podcast. I tried out the 'high stool' idea, it is quite
> comfortable. But do you  sit like this for long periods of time (on a chair
> 1.5 times the normal height)? For instance, would you spend an hour in
> front of a computer this way?
>
> Two Norman Rockwell paintings:
>
> 1) This is a self portrait. The stool is round and somewhat high. Seems OK
> for the purpose. Painting

> 1.<http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&um=1&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=657&tbm=i...>

>
> 2) The stool is high, but subjects are sitting in the normal way. Painting

> 2.<http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=657&tbm=isc...>

>
> Regards,
> Selvaraj
>
> On 4 April 2012 03:14, Robert Rickover <rob...@alexandertechnique.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Galen Cranz, a professor of architecture at the University of California,
> > Berkeley, author of "The Chair... " and an AT teacher has a very different
> > perspective on chairs, sitting etc.
>
> > It's not yet a podcast, but you can listen to an interview on this topic
> > here:http://alexanderaudio.com/applications/chairs/
>
> > Robert Rickover
>

> > <http://facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueGuide>

[Robert Rickover]

Sraj and group

I sometimes sit on the stool for hours at a time - but I usually take breaks.  It's far, far more comfortable than a chair.  Check it out for yourself - give yourself a little time to adjust.

Robert Rickover

[Pauliina Lievonen]

Not meaning to advertise for Ikea - this is just an example. But this
is the kind of chair I prefer - completely horizontal seat, back rest
for every now and then. Nice and inexpensive, too. Office chairs (and
the one this discussion started with is just a fancy office chair
IMO) in general are too "fussy" for me, the simpler the better. Plus
a seat that tilts backwards, even just ever so slightly, forces you to
fight for balance all the time. http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00211088/

Sometimes I use a simple round stool instead.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/80209816/

The longest I've sat in front of the computer is something like 9
hours...I know, insane... no problems afterwards.

The secret to sitting for a long time is not looking for the ideal
chair or ideal position but having a chair that allows you to move and
shift and change position, and allowing yourself to do just that!

Taking breaks and actually getting out of the chair is of course also
pretty useful!

[eva]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 12:03:21 -0700 (PDT), swingpete
<swin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like Esther Gokhale has put out a chair for healthy sitting.
>
> http://egwellness.com/chair
>
> What's some AT opinions of this type of chair?

Why not look at what FM Alexander has to say about chairs:
"And I may note in this connection that I am continually being asked,
both by friends and unknown correspondents, for my opinion concerning
the correct type of chair, stool, desk or table to be used in order to
prevent the bad habits which these pieces of furniture are supposed to
have caused in schools. In my replies I have tried to demonstrate that
the problem is being attacked from the wrong standpoint.
[...]
No, what we need to do is not to educate our school furniture, but to
educate our children. Give a child the ability to adapt himself within
reasonable limits to his environment, and he will not suffer discomfort,
nor develop bad physical habits, whatever chair or form you give him to
sit upon. "
(MSI, IRDEAT Four Books... p91,92).

So if we agree with Mr. Alexander, the type of chair is pretty much
unimportant.

Regards,
Eva

[sraj]

Robert, list,  

We must keep in mind that where chairs are concerned there will be difference of perception between the West and the East. Westerners (older people?) typically seem to have poor flexibility in the lower half of their bodies due to their way of life. I can understand a Westerner feeling quite comfortable in this position (where a part of the weight of the upper part of the body is also passed through the legs). Definitely this will solve problems of sorts for particular individuals.

In the case of Norman Rockwell on a slightly higher chair, additional weight on the legs provides the tension required to lean forward and do his painting. If such tension is required for the job being done, fine. 

When the chair is low (or even high and one is sitting normally) the full weight of the upper body is passed through the seat, thus allowing the legs to be relatively relaxed. In the case of a low chair it is possible to keep the legs active to keep the spine vertical without the help of a back rest; if one so desires he can also stretch out his legs and lean back on a back rest.  With a low seat, it is not necessary that the pelvis will tilt back if the individual has good lower body flexibility. I would again remind people that chairs that were introduced in India by the British were invariably low. In high chair designs, for instance office chairs, the desk invariably had footrests. 

My preferred way of sitting, is to sit on a wide stool, where I can sit yoga style (that's how I am sitting at the moment). Do we see the office of the future having this arrangement :-) Apart from the obvious advantage of holding the body symmetrical, is it possible that the yoga method of sitting is also capable of improving blood circulation and improving our mental faculties. And what about body language, would that improve too??

My one worry about the Alexander Technique is that it does not give sufficient importance to the lower half of the body. 

One quote from MSI:

- Page 127 -If there is any undue muscular pull in any part of the neck,

it is almost certain to be due to the defective co-ordination

in the use of the muscles of the spine, back, and torso generally,***LOWER HALF??**

the correction of which means the eradication of the real cause

of the trouble.

Selvaraj

[LM Lists]

Hi everyone,

Robert wrote:
http://egwellness.com/chair  What's some AT opinions of this type of chair?

What I do like about her chair is the 5-star swivel base because it is convenient to be able to turn yourself and the chair easily. The gas-assist lift is good too to be able to adjust the chair to the optimum height for different people (though if only one person is using the chair it is not particularly necessary as long as the chair is the right height for that person. The best height being when your feet can be fully on the floor with your thighs supported by the front of the chair seat chair but not pressing into it.

This is what my working chair is like -- it has a tilt-able seat and I keep it slanted forwards by about 10 degrees (front of the seat lower than back). It has a 5-star base and swivels. BUT it has no armrests and no back. It is basically a somewhat padded flat-seated stool that can tilt. It has a height adjustment lever but I never use it, having set it up at the right height for me.

However, with the rest of the chair, I think she is making it more complicated than it needs to be. I see no need at all for a back-rest. If your back needs rest while sitting then using a back-rest to lean back on is not going make your back any more capable of supporting you without fatigue. In fact, it will just encourage all the very sorts of miserable use that people already have in chairs and ensure that you keep on needing a back-rest. As soon as you lean back to use a back rest even a little, there is a tendency to draw the head forward to compensate so you are looking at things in front of you the same way. There is also a huge tendency for many people to do that forward compensation not just in the upper joints of the neck but in the upper chest - a kind of slump/pull down in front.

And of course most people will lean back on a back-rest in order to use it for support so that they can turn off (relax) the muscles of their back (usually because their backs are not strong enough to support them indefinitely. This is a form of slumping regardless of how your shape changes, and is a real vicious circle.

Now, these compensations / "relaxations" do not need to happen, of course, but you'd have to have be pretty aware and have more than a modicum of ability to use of yourself well to not get sucked into it. And if you have that much awareness and ability to use yourself well in sitting, then you have enough to be able to sit upright on just the seat without a back-rest !!

It does not take that long when you start to learn how to maintain a nice centred uprightness and poise on your sitting bones on a flat-seated chair (with or without a slant forward) to have the back musculature and your coordination adapt to be able to sustain you without fatigue.

I can and often do spend all day in front of my computer or writing without any fatigue or discomfort. In my opinion it is a goal worth shooting for, and any elements of a chair (like the back-rest) that tend to encourage us away from that goal are counter-productive and only serve to keep you away from the goal. You won't reach that goal right away, and there will be some fatigue and discomfort in the process of the neuro-muscular adaptations, but as long as we are learning how to sit in a centred and poised way (the job of the AT teacher), and as long as we take breaks to walk around of lie in semi-supine when fatigue or discomfort does set in.

With that kind of dedication to the goal, the adaptations will surely happen and within a number of months (3-6) people find they can sit upright without a back to their chair with more ease for longer and longer and longer times. Even before that it will come to feel very "natural" and the old habits will definitely show more obviously all their strain and constriction. Within a year the adaptation to the new simple and poised way of sitting will be pretty well completed and you will be able to sit as long as you like.

If you look back in history, chairs used to be simple flat, straight-backed things. In fact, in many of the old churches in the area where we used to live in the South of France (by old I mean 11th century - 1000 years ago!), there was not sitting for the parishioners at all, and the seats that were there for the choirs were just narrow benches that jutted out about 5 inches (12 cm), just enough to get your sitting bones on. This is all you need really to be supported, and they were surprisingly comfortable -- no way could you slump on those "chairs"

Back to Esther's chair. If you don't need a back-rest, you don't need little knobblies sicking out to do anything for your breathing or your back muscles. I think those are just a gimmick. Why would you need anything to help out the breathing or the back muscles unless there was already something interfering with them?  Same thing with the patches on the front of the seat in her chair. You don't need anything to stop you sliding forward on the seat unless you are leaning back...

Finally, it is expensive too. I'm sure with all the "features" built in it does cost a lot to make so it is probably not an inflated price for what it is, but the much simpler sort of chair I use is way cheaper. I got mine from John Gorman in the UK and in today's currency it would cost less than half the price of Esther's chair. I don't think me makes these with the swivel base and tilt-able seats any more (pity) but he does sell what he calls the "wave stool" at £165 (deatils at http://www.posture-chair.co.uk/other-makes/kneeling-chairs). It is a sort of stool with a slant-forward seat and a triangular base that rocks a bit so you can rock forward to reach things in front of you. I have one also and find it very comfortable and usable though I do miss the swivel...

Pardon the length of this message, I got carried away...

warmly,
David

[Rex Alexander]

Mon 9 Apr 2012, 5:23 pm

 

 

Hi David, all,

 

I have discovered that many or most of the standard office chairs like this one =>

 

         http://photo-dictionary.com/photofiles/list/1996/2606office_chair.jpg

 

have arms and back held in place by only a couple of bolts/screws that can easily be removed in two minutes. I have done so with two of mine  now.  What you get is essentially a stool on rollers that turns 360 degrees and adjusts for height. I sit with a wedge on top of mine which tilts forward about 10 degrees and also provides a bit more height.  It would be great if I could raise the height a little more.  Still I am way ahead of the game compared to using the chair with arms and back attached.  Especially the arms are ridiculous and probably injurious in terms of use.

 

Cheers,

 

Rex

Khon Kaen, Thailand

rext...@gmail.com

> Hi everyone,

>> Robert wrote:

> http://egwellness.com/chair&#160; What's some

> stool" at ?165 (deatils at

[LM Lists]

Hi all,

Rex Alexander wrote:
I have discovered that many or most of the standard office chairs like this one [picture link] have arms and back held in place by only a couple of bolts/screws that can easily be removed in two minutes. I have done so with two of mine  now.  What you get is essentially a stool on rollers that turns 360 degrees and adjusts for height. I sit with a wedge on top of mine which tilts forward about 10 degrees and also provides a bit more height.

Good discovery, Rex. Doing it that way, you get a decent simple chair for a lot less money than a "specialist" chair.

I do find it handy to have the variable tilt mechanism on the seat on my chair, but truth be told, I do not change it much. So the wedge cushion you are using serves much the same purpose. And, of course, it still gives you two settings -- flat seat without the wedge and slanting forward seat with the wedge.

warmly,
David

[swingpete]

ahh Yes Rex.

I have done the same thing with a new office chair I just purchased.
In receiving it in the mail, it required assembly, and while
assembling the chair, I noticed that stopping at just the sitting base
was good enough for my purposes. Do not attach the backrest, or either
arm support.

In fact, having not attached the arms and the back portions to the
chair has made the seat portion have a slight slant forward.
The slant forward is because the chair's seat tends to slant backwards
towards the backrest when fully put together. With no backrest and
just turning the chair around, I"m essentially sitting on this chair
backwards from its design, but I enjoy it a lot thus far.

I had contemplated putting one of the arm rests on it, but haven't yet
since I wanted to give this chair a bit of a go.

It's a really nice stool on rollers, and since the chair was a decent
office chair, the wheels move rather nicely.

I'm with you too though, Rex, it would be nice if the hydrolics went
up about 6 inches higher. My only "complaint" if it's is one.

My next project at some point may be to add more ventral support to
the chair.

On Apr 9, 3:35 am, Rex Alexander <rextu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mon 9 Apr 2012, 5:23 pm
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi David, all,
>
>
>
> I have discovered that many or most of the standard office chairs like this one =>
>
>
>
>          http://photo-dictionary.com/photofiles/list/1996/2606office_chair.jpg
>
>
>
> have arms and back held in place by only a couple of bolts/screws that can easily be removed in two minutes. I have done so with two of mine  now.  What you get is essentially a stool on rollers that turns 360 degrees and adjusts for height. I sit with a wedge on top of mine which tilts forward about 10 degrees and also provides a bit more height.  It would be great if I could raise the height a little more.  Still I am way ahead of the game compared to using the chair with arms and back attached.  Especially the arms are ridiculous and probably injurious in terms of use.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Rex
>
> Khon Kaen, Thailand
>
> rext...@gmail.com
>
> > Hi everyone,
>
> >> Robert wrote:
>

> >http://egwellness.com/chair ; What's some

> ...
>
> read more »

[Rex Alexander]

Wed 11 Apr 2012, 8:41 am

 

Hi Pete, all,

 

     I think this information is important because many or most simply might not realize how easy it is to modify a standard office chair.  I am not mechanically inclined, and this is something that ordinarily would hot have occurred to me.  I think it just came to me by "accident" thinking about Robert replacing his desk chair with a wooden stool.  If it was something that required a lot of work, I simply would have inhibited the urge to do so!  ;o}

 

     Of course, AT isn't about chairs or  ergonomics, per se.  On the other hand,  ergonomics has always been an important-but-neglected  issue in it's own right, quite apart from AT.  It is probably even more important today with so many of us living our lives and desk jockeys and computer appendages at work, and couch potatoes and textaholics at home.    Certainly however, AT can powerfully inform ergonomics, and hopefully the opposite is also true.

 

Cheers,

 

Rex

Khon Kaen, Thailand

rext...@gmail.com

>>> http://egwellness.com/chair&#160;; What's some

>> read more ?

[Michaela]

When this post began last week I was intrigued to go to Esther
Gokhale's website for more information. I would never consider buying
a $ 560 sitting equipment, but ordered the Stretchsit Cushion for $
49.95 to find out about the rubbery nubs built into the back support.
Only two days later an ipad sized light cushion with 8 rubber nubs
arrived with the instructions to sit with your buttocks well back in
the car seat, push yourself into length with the strength of your
arms, then to gradually release the arms and feel the skin on your
back being held up against the special texture of the cushion, gently
stretching your spine. Stretching your spine while being held up by
your skin? Sounds like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps!! There
was no reason for me to keep the Stretchsit until the end of the 30
day trial period. I myself don't have back pain and would not know how
to recommend it to my students. When I called about return policies
the sales representative assured me that it would make a big
difference if I also had the book that explains everything well and
makes it the best method to heal back pain. I don't know - for the
time being I'll just stick to what I know best, teaching the Alexander
Technique. http://www.alexandertechniquect.com/

[J F Messenger]

I found the instructions for the "Stretchsit cushion" on Youtube. Ouch
is all I can say - I prefer AT attention and, if necessary, FM's
velvet covered cigar box !

With regard to the history of chairs, there's a quaint neolithic
statue in Romania :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CucuteniNeolithicChair.JPG

Ps - Strange how Ms Gokhale decried the use of fancy office charis in
2010 - http://egwellness.com/sites/default/files/news_events/newsletter/NewsletterDec10.html

[Dana Ben-Yehuda]

I have a friend who is a fan of Gokhale. She has a Stretchsit and let me try
it. It did not feel good at all!

I was in the car with my friend and her husband. He was driving. I noticed
that the stretchsit was hanging over the back of his chair.

Dana

On 4/12/12 11:54 AM, "J F Messenger" <alexander.t...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[sraj]

Dear all,

While we are on the subject of chairs, I would like to share my personal experience a little further. 

Presently my preferred way of sitting is to sit cross-legged (semi-yoga-style), on a stool 65cm x 45cm x 42 cm high. I sit this way while at the computer, and even at the dining table.

How did I start sitting this way? Do I practise Yoga? Actually I know very little about yoga, even though I am from India. And I do not practise yoga.

I have been too lazy to keep proper records of my 'posture correction' experience. I doubt that I was sitting this way in 2002 (when I put up my www.humanposture.com website). If I had been sitting that way, my website would most probably have touched on this experience (even though the site states that there have been a few updates, the updates went through a cycle, and the site at present is more or less the same as on the day it was first put up: I plan to keep it this way, my new experience featuring in www.humanposture.blogspot.com). 

I did not come to a logical conclusion that I should sit this way. My first breakthrough in posture correction came with the idea of 'Thought Space and Present Space', covered in my website. The second breakthrough came about accidentally. Some carpentry work was going on in my house, and in a fit of absentmindedness I asked the carpenter to make six boxes of size 30cm x 30 cm x 30 cm out of plywood (one side open). I thought it would make a good low seat to sit on. What eventually happened, I started using these boxes as foot rests (don't ask me why I started to use such a high foot rest); what I found was, it felt good, sitting this way, and over a period of time I could feel that it was helping me to loosen and strengthen the abdominal and thigh regions. 

From sitting this way, I eventually graduated to sitting cross-legged yoga style. I would like to emphasise once again, that I only wish I could claim that I have thought out all my 'posture moves' logically; this however would not be true, the logic has come after the act!!

In this matter I can only express deep concern that people in the West don't seem to be particularly concerned about the lower half of their bodies. For instance, the use of western toilets, which I used to think was one of those fashion statements by the West, to scoff at the East, has of late become a matter of deep concern to me, with the problems I experienced with my knees over a period of nine months. Had it not been for my use of Eastern toilet, I may not have even realised that I was walking into a problem. The pain became acute only when I squatted fully. Unless you do sit ups regularly, using squatting toilet will at least give you a rain check on your lower body flexibility. I really doubt that good and strong posture is possible without using the inherent flexibility of all parts of the body. Even if you are from the west, if you cannot  squat, it should be considered a postural fault, and if you are sufficiently young you should figure out how to get over it.

Regards,

Selvaraj

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Selveraj,

On 17 April 2012 16:29, sraj <sra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Actually I know very little about yoga, even though I am from India. And I do
> not practise yoga

I've been told the average standard of yoga teaching in the west is
maybe now better than in India and maybe more people do it here too.
We need it more because of our high stress and neurosis levels!

Have you looked at the posture and movement of yoga teachers?

> I really doubt that good and strong posture is possible without using the inherent
> flexibility of all parts of the body.

Well you do know a bit about yoga! Flexibility, like posture, is an
outward sign of inner workings of the body / mind. Or due to
psycho-physical unity if you make your body more flexible your mind
becomes more free.

Good posture comes not from strength but from good muscle tone - a
proper balance between muscle tension and release. In the modern
world most people suffer from a great excess of muscle tension and
that tension has a large psychological component. Release must occur
in both areas because they are symptoms of one underlying problem.

If your investigations take you along this path you have a good chance
of duplicating some of the discoveries of Alexander and the yogis!

In researching yoga you need to get past a lot of surface baggage
attached to it, something AT pretty well avoids so far. If you focus
on the experiential empirical scientific side of it you can find what
you seek,

Good Luck
Keith

[LM Lists]

Hi,

J. Messenger wrote: Strange how  Ms Gokhale decried the use of fancy office charis in
2010 -  http://egwellness.com/sites/default/files/news_events/newsletter/NewsletterDec10.html

Oops, seems that this page has now been taken down...

David

[sraj]

Keith wrote:

Good posture comes not from strength but from good muscle tone - a
proper balance between muscle tension and release. 

..

Being strong is an important element of good posture. My posture correction largely revolves around asking the question: why is this part of the body not flexible, and if it is flexible, why is it not strong? 

This is an ideal that may be difficult to achieve, since we cannot really start loading the body (when we are taking the good posture route) till proper alignment of the musculoskeletal system has been achieved.

If we consider the body to be made up of links:

LINK-LINK-LINK-LINK-LINK-LINK-

in the 'good posture route', we cannot seriously start loading the body till we are sure that each link can bear the load.

In the standard body building route - doing push ups and sit ups, or lifting weights - we make use of external resistance to build up different parts of the body, ignoring (at least partly), the relationship they bear to one another.

For the moment I admit, 'the good posture route' is caught in a trap, since we are still to figure out a fool proof way to correct posture.

Regards,

Selvalraj

[Tim Kjeldsen]

On 26/04/2012 10:55, "sraj" <sra...@gmail.com> wrote:

For the moment I admit, 'the good posture route' is caught in a trap, since we are still to figure out a fool proof way to correct posture.

Why not try the Alexander Technique?

[sraj]

Hello Tim, List,

I wish everyone were as smart as Alexander; we would have nailed the problem by now. 

I am still to wrap my mind fully around the idea of 'conscious guidance and control'; it is a powerful idea, and raises important questions.

Regards,

Selvaraj

--

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Selveraj,

On 28 April 2012 02:56, sraj <sra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wish everyone were as smart as Alexander; we would have nailed the problem
> by now.

You don't have to be as smart as FMA to learn and apply his technique.

It is far harder to discover it for yourself or to work it out just
from reading his books and experimenting for yourself.

> I am still to wrap my mind fully around the idea of 'conscious guidance and
> control'; it is a powerful idea, and raises important questions.

Wrapping your mind/body round it is the trick!
If you can start to be consciously aware of your proprioception you
become aware of aspects of your functioning you weren't aware of
before. From there you can start to exercise some guidance and even
control over aspects of your functioning that you couldn't previously.
Easy! Not!

regards,
Keith