Discovering Alan IF

[Alan JOBERT]

Hi all,

Thanks for accepting me in this group. I'm just discovering Alan IF and saw there is a large documentation available for this software. I'm interested in creating games and also playing existing games.

However, I already spent a lof of time on another text adventure game creation software before realizing it was buggy, incomplete and not any more maintained. So, I would like to check the community here to see how many people are using this software. I can see on the alanif.se website that the software is still in development and has recent releases, which is good news. But on the contrary, there are many dead links on the website and on the wiki too, and I was not able to download any game to test the software, which is not very encouraging, I must say.

I would thank anyone who provides any feedback here.

Thanks,

Alan.

[tho...@alanif.se]

Hi Alan!

And welcome!

The Alan IF system has never been the biggest of the bunch, but some think it is the best ;-)

I'm the creator and still working on it from time to time. There are a group of dedicated users, but I'll let them speak for themselves ;-)

Could you point me to some dead links on the website so I can check them, please. If they are pointing to related sites unfortunately it is impossible to keep track of such changes. If they are pointing "within" the Alan project they should of course be correct.

You mention the Wiki, could you be explicit about which wiki you are talking about?

Regards,

   Thomas

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[Anssi Räisänen]

Hi Alan! Welcome to the Alan community. There are still a group of people using the system, and I've been a big fan since way back when. The system is, to my mind, somewhere between I7 and TADS in character; the Alan code is rather descriptive, much like I7, while at the same time retaining its code-like feel, giving it more precision than the rather (at least seeming) free-form of I7. Alan can perform all the basic, and some refined, functions expected of interactive fiction, and the learning curve is not that steep; in fact, I was drawn to it by its clarity and simplicity. If you have questions about the standard library and its practical use and implementation, I would be one of the people to ask. The library is being still developed actively (an update is in the works, though the timetable is not in any way set). Nice to see new people giving the system a go!

BR,

Anssi 

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From: ala...@googlegroups.com <ala...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of tho...@alanif.se <tho...@alanif.se>

Sent: Friday, August 19, 2022 11:43 AM
To: ala...@googlegroups.com <ala...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [alan-if] Discovering Alan IF

 

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[Tristano Ajmone]

Ciao Alan and welcome to ALAN community!

> Thanks for accepting me in this group.

The group is open to all IF enthusiasts, and although its main topic is the ALAN IF system its part of
the larger IF community.

> I'm just discovering Alan IF and saw
> there is a large documentation available for this software.

I'm Tristano from Italy, and I actively participate in the maintenance of the ALAN documentation
as well as the library projects. So if I can help you with anything regarding the documentation, feel
free to ask.

> I'm interested
> in creating games and also playing existing games.
> However, I already spent a lof of time on another text adventure game
> creation software before realizing it was buggy, incomplete and not any
> more maintained.

Unfortunately many of classic IF authoring system have been around for decades, starting to get old
and often are no longer developed. Although ALAN is one of the "original" classic IF authoring
systems that have been around for decades (with various incarnations: ALAN, ALAN 2, and now ALAN 3),
it's still actively maintained and developed.

When it comes to bugs, they are usually fixed within a matter of days by Thomas.
Of course, like every tool, there is always the chance of a bug waiting to be discovered, but for
ALAN these would be mostly edge-case bugs, since the language is extensively tested.

> So, I would like to check the community here to see how
> many people are using this software.

Probably the number of people using ALAN to create text adventures that get published is very
small (can count them on the tip of your fingers). Nevertheless, when it comes to people using
ALAN everyday to create small adventures for bug tests, documentation examples, etc., you then
have a tool which is used on a daily basis by its project maintainers (again, a very small
number, but at least very active).

So, from that point of view, it's not a neglected tool, and the existing libraries are being
used and tested almost on a daily base, which means that you can get active support from those
who work on them, since they are "fresh on the issue" when it comes to ALAN code.

You should also bear in mind that ALAN is different from the other IF systems in that it doesn't
enforce any predefined world-model, set of verbs, etc. Even though there are various version of
ALAN libraries that you can start with, you're not bound to use any of them, and can create
your own from scratch — whereas most IF systems are either designed around an official Standard
Library or only work with a default library.

So ALAN gives you more freedom when it comes to crafting your own adventure to your liking,
since you can control the entire process, deciding which adventure verbs to include, and so on.
Of course, starting with a ready made library is usually easier, especially when learning ALAN,
but it's a point worth keeping in mind when it comes to deciding which IF system you'll be
spending the next year learning to use and creating your first adventure with — regardless of
the system you'll choose, learning to write your first adventure, and actually writing it, is
a time consuming process.

Ideally, when you're passionate about writing text adventures, the best approach is to try
a different authoring system with each adventure, so you get to learn all the available
languages and tools, and what their differences are. Once you've learned one IF authoring
tools, learning another one is easier since the driving concepts around how text adventures
are structured are very similar, regardless of how different the programming languages of
these tools are.

The ALAN programming language is definitely very easy to learn. It's simple, has a syntax
very close to plain English, and keeps the syntax elements down to the basics so that they
are not hard to remember and work with, yet they are designed to be flexible enough so
that by combining them authors can achieve all the magic required to animate a text adventure.

But then, you might ask about specific features you're looking for in your adventure, just
to check that (1) ALAN is the right language for you, (2) that these features are already
covered in the available libraries, so you won't have to implement them yourself.

Like many IF tools, ALAN is a *static* language, i.e. you can't create new game objects
during game. Other IF systems, like TADS, are *dynamic* and allow you to create new objects
during gameplay (e.g. a vendor machine that spouts a new soda can every time you insert a coin).
While most adventures don't need to dynamically create new objects during game, there are
some special cases that might need this feature (e.g. to simulate a rope that can be cut into
smaller and smaller pieces, *without limits*), but usually you can get away with simulating
such effects by limiting the number of soda cans or rope cuts in the game, e.g. by saying
that the vending machine is now empty, or that the rope snippets are now to small to cut them
further, etc., which allows you to cover the feature by creating ten or twenty instances of
soda cans, rope snippets, etc., and just bring them in and out of the game stage on demand.

But if you have a clear vision of what type of adventure you need to create, I suggest that
the best approach is to investigate which IF system is best *for you* right now, i.e. for
the adventure you have in mind, and to do so by asking about the features covered by each
IF tool. Here we can answer you whether ALAN covers some features or not, and many of us
have also used at least one other IF authoring system, so might also give you advise in
terms of other languages too.

> I can see on the *alanif.se* website

> that the software is still in development and has recent releases, which is
> good news. But on the contrary, there are many dead links on the website
> and on the wiki too, and I was not able to download any game to test the
> software, which is not very encouraging, I must say.

Keeping track of links is not easy, especially those pointing to third party websites, since
when it comes to IF most websites and blogs are run by IF enthusiasts who do so voluntarily,
without profit, so often website domains and IPS contracts are not renewed and some sites just
die after having been around for ages, while other times they move to another domain or their
structure is re-organized, leading to dead links.

But, as Thomas pointed out, if you can mention the broken links and where you've seen them we'll
fix them. Thomas manages the ALAN website, while the ALAN Wikis on GitHub are open for anyone to
edit them, or you could just tell me which links to fix, since I usually take care of updating
the Wikis contents.

If you need help to get started with ALAN, just ask!


Tristano Ajmone (Italy)

[Alan JOBERT]

Thanks to all who replied to me, and at first to Robert DeFord (in a private message), then to Thomas, Anssi and Tristano. 

It allows me to have a clear idea of who is doing what. I can see there are at least a small number of people working on this project but also that they are very reactive to reply and available to help, which is very encouraging.

A special thank to Tristano who made a very long and complete answer to me.

First, to reply about the dead links, I went again to search across the website and found some on this page :

<https://www.alanif.se/about/games>

The two links given on this page are supposed to provide access to the download of all the games mentioned below, but they don’t work. As they are external links, of course, this is not the responsibility of the webmaster if they don’t work. But as the ALAN-IF was created to allow to create text adventure games, I think this is very important, if you want to promote the whole system, that the people are able to use it with exiting games that you can easily download and install. As all the links are not working, it suggests that the system is not anymore maintained, but it actually is. It’s a pity and does not help to advertise and promote the Alan system. Why do not create your own repository containing all games for Alan that are, indeed, proposed with a free license ? I could help in this way, if you agree with it, and contact all the authors to ask them if they agree and get the files to populate this repository.

I can also see that the list on this page is missing the games from Robert DeFord, who replied to me, and who is the author of several games made with ALAN.

Anyway, thanks again, and now that I know that this system is still live and have some active contributors, I’m going to delve into the documentation, starting with the tutorial. I intend to create a game in French language, possibly translated in English, so I’m interested in the multi-language capability of the software, if any.

Best regards,

Alan (from France).

[Tristano Ajmone]

> First, to reply about the dead links, I went again to search across the
> website and found some on this page :
> <https://www.alanif.se/about/games>
> The two links given on this page are supposed to provide access to the
> download of all the games mentioned below, but they don’t work. As they are
> external links, of course, this is not the responsibility of the webmaster
> if they don’t work. But as the ALAN-IF was created to allow to create text
> adventure games, I think this is very important, if you want to promote the
> whole system, that the people are able to use it with exiting games that
> you can easily download and install. As all the links are not working, it
> suggests that the system is not anymore maintained, but it actually is.
> It’s a pity and does not help to advertise and promote the Alan system.

You're absolutely right. I didn't even notice these links were broken, but that's
probably just because I navigate the IF Archive portal more often than the ALAN
website. Here is the updated link to the IF Archive, plus some others:

https://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archive/games/alan/
https://ifdb.org/search?searchfor=system:Alan

There might a few games that were not submitted to either site though.

> Why do not create your own repository containing all games for Alan that are,
> indeed, proposed with a free license ? I could help in this way, if you
> agree with it, and contact all the authors to ask them if they agree and
> get the files to populate this repository.

That's been on our wish-list for a while, but was procrastinated due to amount
of maintenance work for existing projects. We'd like to create a dedicated
GitHub repository with all ALAN games in compiled form and, if possible, with
their source code (if available).

Licenses are indeed one of the main obstacles, since the early ALAN games pre-date
the era of FOSS licenses (even ALAN didn't have a license initially, until licenses
started to pop-up). In most cases you can still store them based on the assumption
that they were freeware and because in their original context they were clearly
intended for end users to freely download them and play them. But then, when it
comes to private hosting services like GitHub things are not so easy since you
have to abide to an EULA which is rather strict about (c) and licenses, so terms
like "freeware" are a bit of a slippery ground. Contacting the original authors
is definitely the best approach, but bear in mind that so many years have passed
for some old games that their authors might no longer be active in the community,
and their contacts might be obsolete.

But definitely, creating a repository for ALAN games is a must-do, and we should
start by populating it with the games we have at hand, licenses and all (and there
are enough of them). BTW, I've already started preparing for this project on my
local PC, so I've already downloaded all of the games available via the IF Archive
and the IFDB. The fact that you've asked about this, specifically, will now raise
the project's priority (we tend to work on a peer-need basis, to make the most out
of our limited time we can devote to ALAN), so I'll do my best to create the repository
within the coming week.

As for the website links, only Thomas has access to the website, but I'm sure he'll
fix them promptly.

> I can also see that the list on this page is missing the games from Robert
> DeFord, who replied to me, and who is the author of several games made with
> ALAN.

Robert is indeed a prolific IF author of nice IF works.

> Anyway, thanks again, and now that I know that this system is still live
> and have some active contributors, I’m going to delve into the
> documentation, starting with the tutorial. I intend to create a game in
> French language, possibly translated in English, so I’m interested in the
> multi-language capability of the software, if any.

Beware that there isn't a French library at the moment, so you'll have to create one
from scratch. You might want to have a close look at the ALAN Internationalization
project, which is about creating a core ALAN library in multiple languages:

https://github.com/alan-if/alan-i18n

The project currently hosts usable (albeit Beta) implementations in the following
languages: English, Italian, Spanish. The Swedish version is also being worked on.

There are some constraints in the ALAN language that you need to be aware of when
it comes to internationalization, which in some cases can lead to dead-ends with
some specific languages — e.g. German presents some challenges that were reported
to be hard to circumvent with the current language, whereas for the Italian adaptation
I had to ask Thomas to add a couple of new features to allow handling apostrophes
in articles and prepositions, and other small tweaks to accomodate language specific
features and needs.

These type of challenges are what allow a language to grow over time, so the more
ALAN users indulge in similar quests the more the language gets tested in a wider
context and has a chance to grow further — which, BTW, is the reason why ALAN is
still in Beta, i.e. to allow further improvement before its syntax becomes definitive.

As long as the new requested changes are not backward incompatible (i.e. breaking
compilation of older games) and not to hard to implement or radically change the
language in directions which are not in line with the general philosophy that
guides the project, then you'll find in Thomas a person who's very attentive to
end users needs — but big changes are not implemented over night, they need
thorough thinking and extensive testing before they are actually merged into
the language.

So, if your main target language is French, you should consider that having to
create a custom French library for ALAN can be time consuming (time that you
will be taking away from your actual game), and that there are many IF tools
in the wild that already have mature French libraries. From what I remember,
TADS in only available in English and German, but Inform 6 (and possibly 7)
have mature French libraries. The Inform 6 syntax is not exactly a human-friendly,
it leans more toward the "classic" programming paradigm.

As for Inform 7, you have to be careful about version conflicts between the
different Inform 7 releases and extensions, since the last updates to i7
contained many backward incompatible changes. Inform 7 at some point in 2020
announced an imminent fist public release (v1.0.0), but then the COVID pandemic
exploded and there haven't been any updates on the website (except that it
seems that the release announcement was removed). On the other hand, in the
past year we've seen a surge in Inform activity on GitHub, were they actually
published the Inform 7 source code (Beta), among other things:

https://github.com/ganelson/inform

So, if you're going to stick to Inform 7 in order to rely on a mature French
library, I strongly advice you to consult the authors of the Inform 7 Fench
Standard Library, so they can guide you to the correct Inform 7 release to
use, and which third party extensions versions are compatible with it.

E.g. for the Italian language, there's only one Inform 7 release which works
with the Italian library, and you're bound to use some specific (and rather
old) version of common third party extensions that work with that version.
Finding old versions of an extension is not always easy, partly because i7
didn't originally enforce a versioning scheme for extensions, but also because
the IDE extensions manager doesn't (or didn't) allow fine-grain control
over specific versions. Fortunately though, GitHub came to the rescue in
this respect, and you can now find various repositories gathering i7 extensions,
with all their different versions to pick from.

But then, from my personal experience I don't think that using natural-programming
to target a foreign language makes much sense, since you end up having a source
code that looks like a mixture of English and Italian/French, which doesn't look
very nice at all, and kind of defeats the whole purpose of natural language programming.
So it might make more sense to use a classic programming language instead.

On the other hand, if you feel like giving it a go and try to port the ALAN
Foundation Library to French, I'll be more than happy to assist you in the
task — I also happen to speak a bit French, although I can't really read it
or write it, but in terms of how the grammar should be implemented I should
be able to help you out, since the gap between French and Italian is narrower
then that between French and English.

If this is your first text adventure, consider that learning an IF programming
language can be already quite a demanding task in itself (unless you've already
used a programming language before). I wouldn't say a hard task, but definitely
a demanding one, since programming requires precise constructs, exercising logic
and a special way of tackling real-world problems to implement them as code.

Of course, working on the French port of the library would be the highway to
fully master ALAN (and IF engines in general) since by studying how IF libraries
works gives you a deep insight about how text adventures work behind the scene,
how they can simulate real life with fairly simple tools and mechanisms.

I'm assuming that your interest in creating a text adventure is, just for us,
about having fun and being able to create something artistic that can entertain
others. So, ultimately, whichever path you take is up to you, and you'll end up
enjoying it anyway, and having great fun too. IMO, working in group can make
the whole process smoother, and enjoyable, so choosing an IF system might not
boil down just to its technical aspects (power, features richness, etc.) but
also include important aspects like community support and the continuity of
the system legacy (in terms of its being actively maintained or not).

During my translation work of Anssi's ALAN StdLib 2 to Italian, I've learned
more about IF inner-works and "secrets" than I ever had in my whole life
(been into IF since the late 80's), because it was a chance to study how the
clockwork behind the library worked. I won't lie, the ALAN StdLib 2 is a
fairly huge codebase, but fortunately the ALAN syntax is simple enough to
make its study a realistic goal.

TADS-3 is definitely the most powerful IF authoring tool ever created.
I've been studying the source of its official library on and off for quite
some years now, but being over 27.000 lines of code it's no easy task.
Also, with power comes complexity, so the TADS language itself is very
demanding to master, it's just like studying C++ (their paradigms and syntaxes
are very closely related).

If you are looking for an easy to master (not just learn) IF programming
language, then ALAN is probably your best entry-level choice, because ALAN is
as simple as it can get — yet, without giving up power and features, since
ALAN also provides all the crucial features needed for most IF games.

But if you're planning to create a game with "exotic" features like complex
handling of liquids, objects that can be cut into smaller pieces, etc.,
then you might need TADS-3's super-powers to achieve that.

I've taken liberty to write a long reply because, having been at some point
in your exact position myself, I'm aware that choosing an IF system is going
to have a huge impact on how you're going to spend your free time in the
upcoming year. Making rushed choices will only lead you to dead ends where
you waste precious time only to discover that the tool at hand is not the
right choice for you, and then you're back to square one (and you've mentioned
having gone down that path already). Therefore, I hope that these consideration
that I've put forth in my replies might guide you in making the right choices,
so that you'll be making the most of your free time and achieve your goal and
create the adventure(s) you're planning to.

Best regards

Trsitano

[Thomas]

Thanks, Alan!

I've fixed those two links. For those of you in the know, the first pointed to Baf's Guide which has been down for, well, decades... So it now points to an IFDB query instead.

/Thomas

------ Originalmeddelande ------

Från "Alan JOBERT" <alan....@gmail.com>

Till "Alan IF discussions" <ala...@googlegroups.com>

Datum 2022-08-19 23:56:52

Ämne Re: [alan-if] Discovering Alan IF

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[Alan JOBERT]

Thanks to Tristano for it's long and complete answer, and motivating arguments.

Thanks a lot to take the time to explain to me all these things. I understand this will be time consuming and it will take the next year to learn the ALAN system. To make my decision, I need to complete the documentation reading and to start to experience the coding of a new game, even for a try. If this a successful experiment, then I'll move to the next step and have a look at the libraries, in order to adapt them to the French language, if my abilities are enough to do it, of course. I'm not a very good programmer.

Best regards,

Alan.

[Alan JOBERT]

Thanks Thomas,

I had a look a the IFDB and will have a closer look to it later. This looks good even if, I think, it is missing a good search engine.

Alan.

[Robert DeFord]

Actually, Alan, I don't think that it will take that long for you to start writing Alan code. I can send you some samples of Alan code for you to look at, and I can answer simple questions. (Anssi and Tristano can answer the hard stuff.) I'll bet that you will be cranking out code for your first Alan game in about a month or two.

Robert DeFord

“Forgiving and being forgiven, loving and being loved, living and
letting live, is the simple basis for it all."
Ernest Holmes

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-- 
Robert DeFord

“Forgiving and being forgiven, loving and being loved, living and
letting live, is the simple basis for it all."
Ernest Holmes 1984

[Alan JOBERT]

Thanks to all who replied to me, and at first to Robert DeFord (in a private message), then to Thomas, Anssi and Tristano. 

It allows me to have a clear idea of who is doing what. I can see there are at least a small number of people working on this project but also that they are very reactive to reply and available to help, which is very encouraging.

A special thank to Tristano who made a very long and complete answer to me.

First, to reply about the dead links, I went again to search across the website and found some on this page :

<https://www.alanif.se/about/games>

The two links given on this page are supposed to provide access to the download of all the games mentioned below, but they don’t work. As they are external links, of course, this is not the responsibility of the webmaster if they don’t work. But as the ALAN-IF was created to allow to create text adventure games, I think this is very important, if you want to promote the whole system, that the people are able to use it with exiting games that you can easily download and install. As all the links are not working, it suggests that the system is not anymore maintained, but it actually is. It’s a pity and does not help to advertise and promote the Alan system. Why do not create your own repository containing all games for Alan that are, indeed, proposed with a free license ? I could help in this way, if you agree with it, and contact all the authors to ask them if they agree and get the files to populate this repository.

I can also see that the list on this page is missing the games from Robert DeFord, who replied to me, and who is the author of several games made with ALAN.

Anyway, thanks again, and now that I know that this system is still live and have some active contributors, I’m going to delve into the documentation, starting with the tutorial. I intend to create a game in French language, possibly translated in English, so I’m interested in the multi-language capability of the software, if any.

Best regards,

Alan (from France).

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[Mike Arnaud]

Actually, Alan, I don't think that it will take that long for you to start writing Alan code. I can send you some samples of Alan code for you to look at, and I can answer simple questions. (Anssi and Tristano can answer the hard stuff.) I'll bet that you will be cranking out code for your first Alan game in about a month or two.

Robert DeFord

“Forgiving and being forgiven, loving and being loved, living and
letting live, is the simple basis for it all."
Ernest Holmes

On 8/22/2022 3:41 AM, Alan JOBERT wrote:

Thanks to Tristano for it's long and complete answer, and motivating arguments.

Thanks a lot to take the time to explain to me all these things. I understand this will be time consuming and it will take the next year to learn the ALAN system. To make my decision, I need to complete the documentation reading and to start to experience the coding of a new game, even for a try. If this a successful experiment, then I'll move to the next step and have a look at the libraries, in order to adapt them to the French language, if my abilities are enough to do it, of course. I'm not a very good programmer.

Best regards,

Alan.

Le samedi 20 août 2022 à 03:27:08 UTC+2, taj...@gmail.com a écrit :

> First, to reply about the dead links, I went again to search across the
> website and found some on this page :
> <https://www.alanif.se/about/games>
> The two links given on this page are supposed to provide access to the
> download of all the games mentioned below, but they don’t work. As they are
> external links, of course, this is not the responsibility of the webmaster
> if they don’t work. But as the ALAN-IF was created to allow to create text
> adventure games, I think this is very important, if you want to promote the
> whole system, that the people are able to use it with exiting games that
> you can easily download and install. As all the links are not working, it
> suggests that the system is not anymore maintained, but it actually is.
> It’s a pity and does not help to advertise and promote the Alan system.

You're absolutely right. I didn't even notice these links were broken, but that's
probably just because I navigate the IF Archive portal more often than the ALAN
website. Here is the updated link to the IF Archive, plus some others:

https://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archive/games/alan/
https://ifdb.org/search?searchfor=system:Alan

There might a few games that were not submitted to either site though.

> Why do not create your own repository containing all games for Alan that are,
> indeed, proposed with a free license ? I could help in this way, if you
> agree with it, and contact all the authors to ask them if they agree and
> get the files to populate this repository.

> I can also see that the list on this page is missing the games from Robert
> DeFord, who replied to me, and who is the author of several games made with
> ALAN.

Robert is indeed a prolific IF author of nice IF works.

> Anyway, thanks again, and now that I know that this system is still live
> and have some active contributors, I’m going to delve into the
> documentation, starting with the tutorial. I intend to create a game in
> French language, possibly translated in English, so I’m interested in the
> multi-language capability of the software, if any.

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-- 
Robert DeFord

“Forgiving and being forgiven, loving and being loved, living and
letting live, is the simple basis for it all."
Ernest Holmes 1984

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