A38 windvane

[Ryan Noble]

All,

I want to install a windvane on Wabi Sabi in the near future. What have you all had success with? The former owner had an Aires. He said he was never able to get it dialed in so it was removed and sold. The boat still has the mounts on the stern and I have the mounting brackets (2 'Y' shaped brackets) onboard.

I've heard endless accolades about the Monitors. Do the mounts work for both brands(Aires and Monitor)? I'd prefer to not change the stern mounts if I can avoid it.

Ryan
A38 Wabi Sabi

[Jim Engle]

Welcome aboard Ryan!

Check with Pierce as I thought Wabi Sabi may have had a monitor at one point. I got Grey Fox #81 in 2012 and it was equipped with a damaged monitor.

It took a bit of repair and there is a learning curve but it works very well and I really enjoy using it on ocean passages. 

Here are a few simple tips - the first thing is to balance your sail trim for little to no helm. Once you do this -- the Alajeula will actually want to track straight even without an

autopilot. This means reducing mainsail a little earlier than you might normally. I found in the Bahamas I would sail headsail only with the monitor most of the time.

Close reach to a beat is easy.... A beam reach a bit harder as the tiller gain changes drastically as the wind move fore and aft of beam. Broad reach to run was ok but always with a pole and preventer.

I know there are other windvane systems but I have been very satisfied with my monitor.

Jim Engle

Grey Fox A38  #81

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[Dennis Wilcoxon]

The monitor I had on Maya was flawless. Steered better than any crew. It's on our Cambria 44, Colleen, and between the two boats, has steered thousands of miles with no problems. You really should have one if you'll do more than day sail. There is info also about how to fit a seastar hydraulic ram on the rails for a robust below decks autopilot.

D

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[John Almberg]

If you have the mounting for an Aries, the answer seems pretty simple: find a good Aries! 

People always recommend what they know, but clearly both Aries and Monitors are both well proven wind vanes. Either one will do, but in your case, an Aries will be simpler/cheaper.

Once installed correctly (you can find the Aries installation manual online with a google search), it is not difficult to get an Aries working. The previous owner of my boat made it seem like some sort of magic was involved, but I found it was dead simple. Again, refer to Aries manual. It has clear instructions.

You can still get parts, including a re-build kit, from the inventor’s wife (http://www.ariesvane.com/enquiries.html). Well worth having, even if you don’t need it right away. 

I’d also try to find out what kind of trouble Pierce had. Knowing Pierce a bit (we *almost* bought Wabi Sabi a few years ago), it’s hard to believe he couldn’t figure it out or fix whatever problem there was. There must be more to the story. 

Or, a Monitor would be great too. We have both the Aries and an electronic auto pilot. We use the auto pilot for low-wind situations, but switch to the Aries whenever we have open water and enough wind to sail. It’s quiet efficiency is impossible to beat, especially when the wind starts blowing. 

Good luck. You’ve got a great boat!

— John

[Pierce Ostrander]

Bottom line is that we never really did any long passages. Longest was 4 days and most were a single overnight.  Many of those were under motor power.  Our electric autopilot was able to handle it. I just never got around to monkeying with the Aries to make it work.

We did do a lot of sailing, but most of it was day sailing in the islands or in the Chesapeake Bay for the three years we had the boat when I was still working in DC.  

I'm sure an Aries would be fine in the hands of someone motivated to make it work.

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[glenn gelhar]

Makes good sense to me. I sailed my Vindsang far and through all kinds of conditions with an Aries. 

Glenn Gelhar

Sent from my iPhone

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[Trevor Robertson]

Dear all

I bought Alejeula 38 hull 61 in Florida in March 2019 and shortly afterwards sailed her down to the Caribbean. She was then called Diva, formerly Blue, now Iron Bark III, so I'll call her IBIII from here on. IBIII had a powerful (and electrically hungry) electro-hydraulic autopilot. I don't like listening to a engine running to charge batteries nor do I like relying on anything that needs a microprocessor to function, so fitted a Monitor wind vane before leaving St Peterburg. The Monitor was easy to fit and steered IBIII for all but a few hours of the 29 days it took to get to the Caribbean. It is not a long run (abt 2400 nautical miles) nor did I encounter any heavy weather (nothing over 30-35 kt), but there was enough variety to give the Monitor a fair test. Fortunately it passed that test as the electro-hydraulic autopilot failed before I cleared Tampa Bay. This reinforced my opinion (or prejudice) that an autopilot is seldom worth the effort on a vessel of this size and type and I have since removed it and have no intention to replace it.

My previous boat, Iron Bark II, has a similar displacement and underwater body to an Alajuela 38 with an even lower aspect ratio rig. IBII is fitted with an Aries. Unsurprisingly the two vessels (IBII and IBIII) have very similar steering characteristics. The two vessels are sufficiently similar for to believe my experience with the Aries on IBII is directly applicable to an Alajuela 38.

 Functionally there is little difference between an Aries and a Monitor, which is as one would expect as the design of the Monitor was derived directly from the Aries. The chief difference is that the Aries is considerably more robust than the Monitor. Almost every aspect of the Aries is more sturdy, from the frame to the bevel gears. Slightly counter intuitively, the 6 degree increments of the Aries course adjustment is easier to use and more precise than the continuous line system on the Monitor. On the Aries the use of stainless machine screws tapped into the aluminium castings and corroding tight can be a problem when it comes to rebuilding an old units, but this does not apply to more modern ones which use a red isolation compound that never seems to seize up.

There are two generations of Aries: the original ones made in England by Nick Franklin and more modern ones made first in Denmark and more recently in the Netherlands. The original ones were all in imperial measure (inches) and the more recent ones are metric. Very few parts are interchangeable between the two models. For many years Helen Franklin (Nick's daughter) provided parts for the original model but recently has apparently run out of both parts and enthusiasm for answering emails. Because of this I would avoid buying an original English Aries second hand. These are easy to spot, having ARIES I-O-W cast into the main frame.

Two parts that are interchangeable between the metric and imperial versions are the mounts and the paddle, so if your boat had a mount for an IOW vintage Aries, it will accept the more modern version too. The more modern ones made in Denmark have ARIES NORDENBERG cast into the frame. I assume the most recent iteration from Holland has ARIES AMSTERDAM on its frame, but have not seen one yet. The Dutch and Danish models are identical. Just avoid anything with I-O-W in its name.

It is worth buying the latest version of the paddle hinge which is easily retrofitted, if buying an older metric gear second hand. They cost about 150 Euros. This allows the paddle to flip up, which is especially useful when running in heavy weather with a drogue. Lean Nelis, the Dutch builder of the latest Aries, is easy to find, answers emails quickly and dispatches parts promptly. The Monitor also has a flip up paddle, which is a little easier to use than the Aries on, but much less robust.

If I needed to replace the Monitor on IBIII, I would buy an Aries in its place. It's It I quite a lot cheaper at Euros 3100, vs USD 4,400 for the Monitor besides being stronger and more workmanlike. However if you want something shiny and less industrial looking, get a Monitor.

Cheers

Trev

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Trevor Robertson
Yacht Iron Bark

trevir...@gmail.com

www.iron-bark.blogspot.com

[Trevor Robertson]

Apologies for all the typos, it's been a long day

Trev

[John Almberg]

Wow, I did not know about the new Aries makers in Holland. I can’t imagine ever needing to replace mine, but good to know it would be possible if needed. Thanks for the info.

If Helen has given up with support, I’m glad to have snagged one of the last rebuild kits, as well as a couple of the lower shell castings (the things at the bottom of the ‘A’ tubes with a sheave in them) as they are the most vulnerable part of any vane. 

— John

[Nicolas Kats]

Wondering - has anyone with a Alajuela 38 done self steering just by setting sails & sheets?
I do this routinely on my 39' LOD ketch, heavy displ, full keel. But my ketch rig is helpful, not required - it just gives more sail combinations.
I did not know I could do this with my boat. She kept telling me & I finally listened to her.
She has a trim tab wind vane which I've never used & don't know how to use.
Have done maybe 10K NM with her self steering, mostly west Ireland - - Faeroes - Iceland - Greenland.
Thanks,
Nick Kats

[John Almberg]

Only in certain conditions like a close reach. I wouldn’t try it running down wind.

— John

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[Nicolas Kats]

Hi John
For downwind, back the genoa, main out with maybe a reef or 2 in it.
So no one in the Alajuela group self steers by sail & sheet only???
Non response indicates this.
I would think it quite possible.
Well worth knowing how to do, for many reasons.
Nick

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[Trevor Robertson]

Hello all

I have not owned Iron Bark III (hull 61) or sailed her far enough to comment on getting her to steer using sail balance or sheet to tiller systems but I have had some experience doing so on Iron Bark II. IBII's steering characteristics are very similar to the Alajula 38, unsurprising as they have similar displacement, long keels, bowsprits and relatively low aspect rigs. The chief difference is that IBII is gaff rigged.

A couple of years ago I lost the self steering on IBII between Western Australia and New Zealand and made the rest of the passage using balanced sails and a bit of shock cord to the tiller. It took me 29 days to get to the Bay of Islands and the only time I hand steered was at the end of the passage while motoring in a flat calm. IBII had no electronic autopilot.

It is common experience that almost any fore and aft rigged vessel will steer itself with the wind forward of the beam with a bit of messing around with the sails and perhaps a bit of shock cord to the tiller. With the wind free the problem is to counteract the weather helm caused by the mainsail out broad, and the obvious way to do this is with a backed jib. Having a sail at the end of the bowsprit makes gives much more leverage and facilitates the proceeding. Having a roller furler on the jib makes this a lot easier as it allows fine tuning of the amount of jib showing. The amount the jib is backed counts too, and some of the residual weather helm can be bucked out with a bit of shock cord to the tiller. Once set up the boat sails a remarkably steady course, but any significant change in wind speed requires rebalancing the system. A longer bowsprit of course gives more leverage and means that more mainsail can be set. To achieve this I have on occasion rigged a temporary flying jib boom with a storm jib set aback at its end, but generally am too idle to be bothered. It is just one more thing to sort out in a 3 am squall. Trimming sails for balance rather than speed costs some mileage of course; about 10 or 15% of boat speed in light to moderate airs but very little in fresh to strong wind.

This system does not work on a sloop with its jib set at the stemhead. I have tried various ways to get such a vessel to self steer and ended up rigging a temporary staysail boomed out to weather and set aback with its sheet led to the tiller and balanced with shock cord. This allows the main and jib to be used as driving sails. Many years ago I sailed from Australia to the east African coast using this system. It worked well but is tedious to set up and gybing can take half and hour. It would work on an Alajuela or on IBII and allow use of the jib as a driving sail but I decided I would rather lose 10 or 20 miles per day than put up with its complexity and stuck with the backed jib system when I needed a temporary fix for the defunct Aries.

None of this is new. Slocum used a backed jib to steer Spray and I have seen the weather twin system using a backed staysail described in an article published in the 1950s.

Cheers

Trev

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[Nicolas Kats]

Trevor

This is fascinating, many thanks.

I've never sailed an Alajuela, regrettably.

My boat - ketch, Marconi rig, heavy displ, lo freeboard & short masts, 39 LOD, 36 LWL, full keel. Biggest difference from the Alajuela is the mizzen.

The mizzen gets used as the steering sail in light winds going upwind & reaching. Plenty of situations where I don't need it.

I got the tip re backing the genoa from Slocum, and it works like a charm.

But I get no closer than 45-50 degrees of true downwind. This is one of the main situations when I would love to have a longer bowsprit, so I can back a flying jib off it and push the bow downwind a bit more.

A nice thing about backing the genoa & going downwind is that the boat is much more stable. Slocum mentions this too.

Slocum gave specific instructions about backing the genoa. Crank in both sheets tight til the genoa is at the main mast & quite flattened. Then a few inches one way or the other to change direction. This works for me. My genoa is 100%.
Of course the genoa could be only partly backed, and it can be held by only the windward sheet. Lots of setting possibilities.
My 8K NM bluewater with self steering is by sheet & sail only. I don't tie off the wheel. The rudder hangs loose, unused, and it is at minimal resistance.

I have a wind vane but I've never used it. Ultimately I would think that an ideal is the combination of self steering by sail only with self steering with the vane only. More than just balancing the sails, conditions depending.

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--
Trevor Robertson
Yacht *Iron Bark*
trevir...@gmail.com
www.iron-bark.blogspot.com

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[Ryan Noble]

Wow, thanks for all the input gang. I was wondering how Wabi Sabi will sail herself. I had a question regarding the above techniques about sail plan. What do you mean my 'backing' the jib? I'm picturing tacking and leaving the jib on the old tack as backing the sail. Maybe one of you could draw a picture and post.

I found an Aires for a decent price and plan to install soon. I'll keep you updated on how it goes. I look forward to seeing Wabi Sabi sail herself, with and without the vane.

More info about me, I have tried and mostly struggled getting Bluebird (Catalina 22) to sail herself on Lake Tahoe for the last 10 years. Tahoe is known for big wind shifts (90 degrees in 15 seconds sometimes!) and gusty winds coming out of large mountain canyons. I was able to get Bluebird to sail herself close reached for a few hours at a time a few times. Other times 15-30 minutes. Wind was very consistent for Tahoe those days. Mostly she'd lose herself when the wind gusted or lightened, or changed direction dramatically. Downwind the light boat bucked around too much to work. I think I learned a lot, but never had a huge breakthrough. After reading above it sounds like I was in difficult conditions for that a lot.

Thanks again, you guys rock!
Ryan
Wabi Sabi A38

[John Almberg]

Huh, it took awhile to wrap my head around this ‘backed jib’ idea, but I think I understand it. I will echo back what I think you mean:

For sailing down wind, on a broad reach, rather than dead downwind (assume port tack for this discussion):

- mizzen and main used for drive, out to starboard

- jib backed to port enough to counteract weather helm

- steering with sails alone, or perhaps with a bit of tiller if needed

So, if a wave pushed the bow off to port by 30 degrees, the idea is that the main and mizzen would be depowered a bit, and the mizzen would have more power, so it would push the bow back to starboard. And visa-versa if the bow was pushed off to starboard. 

What about chaffing on the inner stay, at the stem head? Ever been a problem?

I have a perfectly good Aries and also an electronic autopilot, but I will give this a try sometime when the seas are not too rough. 

I have used John Letcher’s sheet-to-tiller steering system on my previous yawl with a lot of success. That is not such a passive system as the one above, and steers almost as well as a wind vane, but I wouldn’t trust it dead downwind. That is where a wind vane beats every other system. 

That said, I hate going dead downwind, so usually tack down wind anyway. 

Very interesting!

— John

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[John Almberg]

Ryan,

Here is the standard book on self-steering systems. The Sheet-to-Tiller system definitely works. I’ve used it myself and there are numerous YouTube videos demonstrating it. 

Not as good as a wind vane, but I keep the bits of equipment you need to make it work (turning blocks, rope, surgical tubing) on board, just in case. Anything to avoid having to steer for more than a few minutes!

https://jesterchallenge.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/self-steering-for-sailing-craft-by-john-s-letcher-jr-small.pdf

— John

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[Nicolas Kats]

Ryan

To back the genoa
Normally the sheets are one on each side of the staysail stay.

Going downwind with backed genoa - you need both sheets on the leeward side of the staysail stay.
So - pull out the windward sheet, wind around the staysail stay, and bring it back astern.

The other thing is, you should have blocks at the bases of the side stays. Both sheets to be run thru these blocks on their way aft.

My boat has 2 pairs of these blocks. Google: Hein Kats Teddy, look at photos no. 7 & 5.

Slocum: winch in both sheets tight so the sail is on the centerline, flattened.
I've also used only the windward sheet to back the genoa - with 1 sheet it is bellied.
Both work.

Slocum lashed his wheel. I don't need to. My wheel spins freely, the ruddder at minimum resistance.

I've sailed on very few boats, and none since discovering I could self steer on my current boat 10 years ago. So I have no practical experience re other boats. I believe heavy displ, lo freeboard, short masts, long waterline, long full keel, are important, maybe essential. This is also the conventional wisdom.

Boats without some or all of these characteristics would still benefit from self steering the way I do it - just not fully.

Nick



----- Original Message -----
From: "John Almberg" <ide...@gmail.com>
To: "alajuelaboats" <alajue...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, 5 January, 2020 09:06:37
Subject: Re: A38 windvane

Ryan,

Here is the standard book on self-steering systems. The Sheet-to-Tiller system definitely works. I’ve used it myself and there are numerous YouTube videos demonstrating it.

Not as good as a wind vane, but I keep the bits of equipment you need to make it work (turning blocks, rope, surgical tubing) on board, just in case. Anything to avoid having to steer for more than a few minutes!

https://jesterchallenge.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/self-steering-for-sailing-craft-by-john-s-letcher-jr-small.pdf <https://jesterchallenge.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/self-steering-for-sailing-craft-by-john-s-letcher-jr-small.pdf>

— John


> On Jan 5, 2020, at 2:46 AM, Ryan Noble <ryan.mca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Wow, thanks for all the input gang. I was wondering how Wabi Sabi will sail herself. I had a question regarding the above techniques about sail plan. What do you mean my 'backing' the jib? I'm picturing tacking and leaving the jib on the old tack as backing the sail. Maybe one of you could draw a picture and post.
>
> I found an Aires for a decent price and plan to install soon. I'll keep you updated on how it goes. I look forward to seeing Wabi Sabi sail herself, with and without the vane.
>
> More info about me, I have tried and mostly struggled getting Bluebird (Catalina 22) to sail herself on Lake Tahoe for the last 10 years. Tahoe is known for big wind shifts (90 degrees in 15 seconds sometimes!) and gusty winds coming out of large mountain canyons. I was able to get Bluebird to sail herself close reached for a few hours at a time a few times. Other times 15-30 minutes. Wind was very consistent for Tahoe those days. Mostly she'd lose herself when the wind gusted or lightened, or changed direction dramatically. Downwind the light boat bucked around too much to work. I think I learned a lot, but never had a huge breakthrough. After reading above it sounds like I was in difficult conditions for that a lot.
>
> Thanks again, you guys rock!
> Ryan
> Wabi Sabi A38
>
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