Why are agile and cmmi compared?

[harinee]

Hi I am a student and was interested to know the mapping of Agile and
CMMi.
The interest aroused as i saw many blogs and websites saying that they
never conflict.

So i was wondering how does the whole confusion start in the first
place in an organisation?
When everyone says that they can very much co-exist, then why did all
this discussion begin in the first place??

As far as I understand, Agile is more focused on the 'people' aspect
and cmmi on the 'process' aspect.
When has cmmi ever said anything that could cause a conflict with
agile??

I know the question might a little foolish to some people..but please
(re)read that i am a student and so my questions have the full
authority to sound stupid:)

Kindly help me out of this basic confusion.

Thanks & Regards,
Harinee

[Donald Buresh]

To Whom It May Concern,

Please read my book. It is entitled: "Customer Satisfaction and Agile
Methods". It is available on Amazon.com. In my book, it was shown that there
is no statistical difference in the use and results of agile-driven software
development methods and the use and results of plan-driven software
development methods. I hope that this helps.

Donald L. Buresh, Ph.D.
3115 Enoch Avenue
Zion, IL 60099
Tele: 847-872-1659

[nopparat slisatkorn]

Hi Harinee,
 
According to my study, CMMI and Agile itself don't conflict each other. CMMI just give you a framework and don't tell you how to do.
Agile principles and manifestos also don't tell you how to do. All the practices on Agile like XP, Scrum are practices that give you how to do.
 
Most of people give concern on documentation and organization measurement that can't go along with Agile. CMMI doesn't tell you how and where to document, you can record anywhere and in any form that you can retrieve. For organization measurement, if you can define measurement that Agile also use and all projects in your organization pay attention for, there is no problem for CMMI.
 
I would say that the framework or standard itself doesn't conflict each other but the way that each organization define their process or procedure might make them confilct.
 
Regards,
Nopparat

[Hillel Glazer]

Harinee,

The previous replies point in the direction of what we believe to be the root cause of the perception of differences.
Our Technical Note "CMMI or Agile: Why Not Embrace Both!" (http://www.sei.cmu.edu/publications/documents/08.reports/08tn003.html) discusses several of these perception issues.

For the most part, in my opinion, if there were a prioritized list of root causes, the one that rises to the top for me is the collection of years' worth of using CMM and CMMI incorrectly.  I would often argue (rhetorically) that Agile was born in direct response to CMM and other related software process models and standards.  In particular, emphasis placed on the ratings obtained from assessments and appraisals drove many organizations to focus on non-value-added artifacts rather than value-focused improvement results.

Furthermore, organizations defining their processes using CMM/CMMI as the pattern for their processes rather than using CMM/CMMI as the framework for improving their existing processes.  Many of the problems may have been introduced when organizations realized that they didn't know what their processes were, and/or didn't have formalized descriptions of their processes prior to using CMM/CMMI.  Thus, an anti-pattern of using CMM/CMMI as the definition of their processes was caused and for many years this was perpetuated.

In my experience, I've seen organizations "copy and paste" from one standard to another, and one model to another with little regard for or study of the target standards/models.  Instead of working to understand what they were doing, they simply applied mappings and then filled in the holes; resulting in processes that didn't make sense, weren't connected to one another, and didn't actually provide anything of value -- other than the ability to be assessed, appraised, or audited.

Hopefully, this gives you a starting point.  Best to read the SEI Technical Note linked above.

--
Cheers!
-->>  Hillel
--
Hillel Glazer, Principal & CEO
Entinex, Inc.,  The Technology Strategy Company
www.entinex.com | www.AgileCMMI.com | www.CMMIFAQ.info
O-

[Donald Buresh]

There are definite distinct characteristics among agile-driven and plan-driven projects. To ignore those differences needs justification and citation. My study (i.e., “Customer Satisfaction and Agile Methods”) found that the differences do exist, but terms of customer satisfaction, these differences are not relevant. What is relevant are product quality, project team effectiveness, and project management effectiveness. These are the variables that really matter.

 

Donald L. Buresh, Ph.D.

3115 Enoch Avenue

Zion, IL 60099

Tele: 847-872-1659

 

> </html

[Patrick Steyaert]

 

I agree with many of the above points.

 

Part of the confusion around agile and CMMI is because people think that they are competing models. This is not true. In fact they are complementary.

 

The essence of agile is "to explore valuable product in a complex and changing environment". I other words agile is about finding out what has value in an environment that is complex and changing.

 

The essence of CMMI is "to embed quality into the process". In other words, define and control the processes, for those processes where the input-output relationship can be defined and controled and that are critical to quality.

 

I am interested to hear opinions on what people think is the essence of Agile versus the essence of CMMI. If we can get an agreement on that maybe we can remove some of the confusion.

[harinee]

Thanks a lot for all your inputs. But I guess that aroused a few more
questions to my mind.
After reading your replies and few more literature, I wonder what
forms the basis to your points?
I am curious to know, of all the identified problem areas, if you all
have actually faced such situations at work or is it only a
perception?
Could you refer any case studies to me? Or perhaps share any
experience that conclude to the above mentioned points?
I am very keen to know what really happens in the industry in such
situations.
Your inputs would be very valuable.

Thanks & Regards,
Harinee


On Feb 2, 5:53 pm, Patrick Steyaert <patrick.steya...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > processes prior to using CMM/CMMI.  Thus, an anti-pattern<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern>of using CMM/CMMI as the definition of their processes was caused and for

> > many years this was perpetuated.
>
> > In my experience, I've seen organizations "copy and paste" from one
> > standard to another, and one model to another with little regard for or
> > study of the target standards/models.  Instead of working to understand what
> > they were doing, they simply applied mappings and then filled in the holes;
> > resulting in processes that didn't make sense, weren't connected to one
> > another, and didn't actually provide anything of value -- other than the
> > ability to be assessed, appraised, or audited.
>
> > Hopefully, this gives you a starting point.  Best to read the SEI Technical
> > Note linked above.
>
> > --
> > Cheers!
> > -->>  Hillel
> > --
> > Hillel Glazer, Principal & CEO
> > Entinex, Inc.,  The Technology Strategy Company

> >www.entinex.com|www.AgileCMMI.com<http://www.agilecmmi.com/> |
> >www.CMMIFAQ.info<http://www.cmmifaq.info/>

> > O-
>
> > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 1:16 AM, nopparat slisatkorn <
> > nopparat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hi Harinee,
>
> >> According to my study, CMMI and Agile itself don't conflict each other.
> >> CMMI just give you a framework and don't tell you how to do.
> >> Agile principles and manifestos also don't tell you how to do. All the
> >> practices on Agile like XP, Scrum are practices that give you how to do.
>
> >> Most of people give concern on documentation and organization measurement
> >> that can't go along with Agile. CMMI doesn't tell you how and where to
> >> document, you can record anywhere and in any form that you can retrieve. For
> >> organization measurement, if you can define measurement that Agile also use
> >> and all projects in your organization pay attention for, there is no problem
> >> for CMMI.
>
> >> I would say that the framework or standard itself doesn't conflict each
> >> other but the way that each organization define their process or procedure
> >> might make them confilct.
>
> >> Regards,
> >> Nopparat
>

> >> > Harinee- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Hillel Glazer]

Harinee,

As a student, you'll not be surprised to learn that not everything is neatly and conveniently documented in case studies and surveys.
Most of the information is garnered from experience in actual work, from meetings, discussions, and conferences, and from online discussion groups.

There are many ways/places to search for information.  Online there are vast communities discussing many aspects of agile development ideas.  There is one main community for CMMI (CMMI Process Improvement Yahoo group).  Conducting searches through the archives of these many communities you will see many discussions on this topic.

If you go back far enough (~2001) and compare the nature of the discussions to today, you will see an evolution of thinking.

Good luck with your research!

--
Cheers!
-->>  Hillel
--
Hillel Glazer, Principal & CEO
Entinex, Inc.,  The Technology Strategy Company

www.entinex.com | www.AgileCMMI.com | www.CMMIFAQ.info
O-

[harinee]

Hillel,
Thank you. That was exactly what I wanted to know- the point at which
the management communicates and analyses their problems.
I read the SEI Technical Note. It is surely a marvellous piece of
work.
Looking at the problems you stated, what in your opinion is the
solution to it? Will only training and management support help?

Dear authors,
Do these problems occur only in the pre-implementation stages?
I have had an opportunity of working in a company which followed
agile. But they did not follow CMMi, so kindly excuse me for these
confusions.
But are there any problems faced as far as the process architecture,
program management, communication during the project and auditing are
concerned?
Kindly share the steps you have taken during the course of your
experience to mitigate such problems.

I have read a lot of conflicting literature till now which I intend to
discuss at a later stage with experts like you. But before that I
wanted to know your initial take on this topic.

Thanks & Regards,
Harinee

On Feb 3, 1:26 am, Hillel Glazer <agilec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Harinee,
>

> As a student, you'll not be surprised to learn that not everything is neatly
> and conveniently documented in case studies and surveys.
> Most of the information is garnered from experience in actual work, from
> meetings, discussions, and conferences, and from online discussion groups.
>
> There are many ways/places to search for information.  Online there are vast
> communities discussing many aspects of agile development ideas.  There is
> one main community for CMMI (CMMI Process Improvement Yahoo group).
> Conducting searches through the archives of these many communities you will
> see many discussions on this topic.
>
> If you go back far enough (~2001) and compare the nature of the discussions
> to today, you will see an evolution of thinking.
>
> Good luck with your research!
>
> --
> Cheers!
> -->>  Hillel
> --
> Hillel Glazer, Principal & CEO

> Entinex, Inc.,  The Technology Strategy Companywww.entinex.com|www.AgileCMMI.com|www.CMMIFAQ.info

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Hillel Glazer]

Harinee,

Here are a number of facets to a solution:

• Improve education about CMMI and Agile
• Improve/better qualify consultants and appraisers (see this thread from another group: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cmmi_process_improvement/message/14513)
  
• Simplify model text, include more background on process improvement (in general) and broader examples (in particular).  Also reword terminology to be less indicative of the "BPUF"/Serial/Bureaucratic paradigm.
• Edit model text to be more clear about the distinction between processes and process areas.
• Improve official training to be more practical, less about the text and more about the holistic big picture of improvement with CMMI.
  

Some of the above steps are being taken by the SEI as we speak. 
Meanwhile, to mitigate any issues, I ensure our clients receive a solid foundation at the start of any engagement.  The only problems faced are when they refuse the education and want to implement the model based on their current (most often incorrect) understanding of CMMI.

In 8 years of working with clients one on one, I have NEVER encountered a client who completely/properly understood CMMI.  Even those who were very close to operating at ML2 or ML3 prior to our arrival were doing so out of sheer business and technical smarts, not from knowing CMMI.  CMMI knowledge/understanding is not required for becoming rate, however, there are some aspects to becoming rated at a maturity or capability level that requires CMMI knowledge -- in particular with respect to generic goals and practices.

--
Cheers!
-->>  Hillel
--
Hillel Glazer, Principal & CEO
Entinex, Inc.,  The Technology Strategy Company

www.entinex.com | www.AgileCMMI.com | www.CMMIFAQ.info
O-