Bib Tags again!

[reece.bell]

I just had a long time customer ask me for bib tags. I have timed their race flawlessly for 4 years and because she ran a race with bib tags last week, she wants it at her race this year. I tried looking through the older post, but didn't find an exact answer. 

1. Is anyone printing their own bibs? How?

2. Should I apply the tags myself or purchase the bibs with them already attached?

3. 1 chip or 2?

4. I don't have mats so do I use overhead and side antennas? 

please help with any info, suppliers, and pics you can provide.

Thanks so much as I now need to start testing quickly!

[rtspt.usa]

1) yes. With a zebra RFID printer and bartender software. You can also buy pre programmed.

2) tags are as easy as applying a regular label

3) I prefer 2 tags vertically on each edge (between pin holes) on bib.

4) overhead and side antennas will be fine

[reece.bell]

for the 2 vertical - front or back of bib

who do you buy from?

[Ohio Race Day]

We do one Smartrac DogBone vertically oriented on the back of the bib, no foam space, normally 2 mat and 2 side antennas, we bought rfid tags from IC Tag Solutions but some have had recent problems with them

[rtspt.usa]

I'm ultra paranoid so I put them on the front but I know many timers who put 2 on the back of the bib and have no issues timing 10,000 runners.
I buy my dogbones from atlas RFID

[Peak Performance Timing]

I use one Dogbone inlay on horizontally on the center back of the bib covered by a foam spacer...overhead antennas FX 9500 reader.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Oh, and I have been getting my tags from IC Tag solutions and just order more this week and they ate shipped and on their way. :)

[reece.bell]

What is the exact product you order from them? Is it a label?

[reece.bell]

Trying to find those at IC - where should I look to order and get pricing? thanks

[Ohio Race Day]

Here is my last invoice info

IC-TAG Solutions, Inc
7 Kingsbridge Road Unit 4
Fairfield, NJ 07004
PH: 973-808-TAGS

DogBone IMPINJ Monza 4D 97x27/Wet
Standard, 5000 per roll

Olga Green
 VP
 of Marketing
 IC-Tag Solutions 
 Ogr...@ictagsolutions.com

 

[Peak Performance Timing]

Thank for answering Ohio...... :)

[reece.bell]

thanks a lot everybody! I appreciate you answering this again.

[reece.bell]

Ohhh, 1 more thing. What do you use to attach the antennae to the top of the truss?

[Tim Irvine]

I do bib chips two different ways. 

1. I place them on the front o f the bib and print a tyvek type label to cover it that has my logo and RFID CHIP, do not remove on it. This is placed vertical.

2. I place it on the back of the bib and cover it with a small footprint of foam. I cut my own foam, so I have come up with a technique to add the foam to the chip without removing it from the roll. This makes the process go really fast. You will have to code the chip while on the bib if you do it this way. This chip is also placed vertical on the bib's back and in both cases, at the edge. If I double chip a bib, I simple put one on the other site too.

I am looking at building a cutter to quickly produce the foam in set sizes. If anyone is interested in buying the foam once I get that built, I will sell them in bundles of 500. I have not set the price yet. The thickness of the foam I use is 2 mm. I am looking at also doing 4 mm.

[Run Roanoke]

I do vertical smartac dogbone with a foam spacer on top. Have had great results with them. I got the foam spacer from race result.

[reece.bell]

Are you saying that you are ready to sell the spacers?

[Tim Irvine]

Not yet, but I will be soon.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Roanoke,

I currently make my own foam spacers, but have recently been considering buying the Race/Result spacers to save time. I am wondering if you could post a picture of one of their spacers.

[Tim Irvine]

3000 Foam Spacers
3000 Foam Spacers on roll
Dimensions 100x30x3mm

$199.00

[Peak Performance Timing]

Thanks but I was looking for a picture of one of them individually

[John Kirby]

http://rfidfoamspacer.com/chip-protectors

Never purchased from this site, but another timer I am friends with has and he is very pleased with their product.

[Tim Irvine]

these are cool, expensive. But cool

[John Kirby]

Also,

Dipole RFID Solutions on FaceBook. Can order the inlays with foam attached.

[Run Roanoke]

Here is a picture of what I do.  The foam covers the entire dogbone.  I have had great results with the foam covering the dogbone over the last year.

[Tim Irvine]

This is what I do, I cut my foam first, place it on the chips before I apply the chip to the bib. Then I code the chip on the bib.

[Run Roanoke]

I put the chip on the bib, program the chip, double check each chip, and the put the foam on.

[Ohio Race Day]

I don't use 'em but 3mm spacers are about 7 cents each over at race|result

https://www.raceresult.com/en-us/shop/RaceResultSystem.php

[Chris Hubbard]

Ok, we've used bib chips for a couple years. Our biggest race this year so far is around 1500 people, two Smartrack Dogbones, vertical on the back of the bib, one on each side, NO spacer. I have a few thousand left, I think they are a waste. We've had maybe 3-4 missed reads out of the last 5-6K chips. 

[Peak Performance Timing]

Chris,

How many of these races have been in extremely wet conditions? Ones where competitors' clothing was soaked? Those are the conditions I worry about. And also when no foam is used and people fold them and pin tightly to their thigh.

[SR Aaron]

I'm posting this only because I want to help you guys out, if you're pro-foam, then you probably shouldn't read this.

We time a hand full of multi sport water events each year and even last month we had an OCR event where participants crawled through a huge ditch of muddy water just 15 feet before the finish! We have no read issues with soaked participants and we do NOT use foam.

Foam is a gimmick, a complete waist of time and money.
Instead of foam... Invest in a good reader, correct cable lengths, and proper antenna positioning.

Notice the water pouring out of the bib ... 100% Read Rate ... NO FOAM ... 15 feet from finish

[Bruce B]

@Sr Aaron one or two tags?

[Brian Agee]

In case new timers read this I wanted to add one thing if they want to try making their own bib tags: Make sure you get the "clear" backing, not the paper backing, when buying tags. The paper backing will easily absorb water, and as seen in another thread, even a very fine layer of water covering the tag can have a dramatic decrease in read rates.

Since I don't use bib tags I've never had a strong desire to research this, but I am wondering what difference there might be in the different types of bibs. If I'm not mistaken, the thin RoadID bibs can absorb some water with prolonged exposure, so I would be afraid to use those in a long race or adventure course. Other bibs might be thicker or have a coating of some kind that allow the water to easily shake off of it. Of course if any kind of bib is basically 'glued' to a soaking wet t-shirt it is hard to imagine this not causing a problem too.

I believe I've tested this before by holding a wet paper town between the antenna and the tag and the reader wasn't able to see the tag. On a side-note you can also 'hide' a tag by using a single sheet of aluminum foil. So if you wanted to create a read-proof box (or even a read proof area) then simply line it with aluminum foil.

This is not an argument for or against foam spacers, just wanted to offer some food for thought. :)

[SR Aaron]

I've received a couple emails about our setup, here's a video that a newspaper took that shows our positioning.

www.facebook.com/tillamookheadlightherald/videos/10154001323043640

We use FX9500 Readers

[SR Aaron]

@Bruce B: 1 dogbone wet inlay tag centered horizontally in the middle of bib, on the back side.

[reece.bell]

Getting a little scared. Emailed Olga several times to order those tags and I did not get a response. Is that normal? Is there a phone number?

[SR Aaron]

We switched to Atlas because our order from Olga took over 3 weeks to ship.

[reece.bell]

I emailed her about ordering, she responded 2 days later. I then emailed telling her my order and she has not responded. Weird. Are they a business or not?

[SR Aaron]

It's a recent issue... here's another thread on the topic https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!topic/agee-race-timing/5d1yUp1s0RA

[Peak Performance Timing]

I just received an order from them yesterday.

[Chris Hubbard]

Read this thread on tags - https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/agee-race-timing/5d1yUp1s0RA

[Jamie Chandler]

Hi everyone. 

We appreciate all of your input regarding tags. We have been working with Atlas, and are able to offer a great shipping discount to all of our customers who are looking for specialized tags, or any other item in the RFID store. At check out just enter the code AgeeTiming50 and receive up to $50 off shipping. 

Additionally, while we always have the Alien Short Squiggle in stock, we are also able to order a variety of tags. If you are looking for something specific, please send me an email, and I can send you a quote.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Jamie

Jamie Chandler

Agee Race Timing

VP of Sales and Operations

970-313-7166

[Jeff K]

It looks like Dogbone 4D is the chip to use on the bibs from what you are all saying

I use the thinkify antennas on the proline camera tripods lined up at the finishline. 

my question

Who is getting 100% read?  and is that 2 vertical, 1 vertical or 1 horizontal?

Thank you!

[SR Aaron]

We used the Dogbone Wet Inlay Monza 4D for the last 2 years, but recently switched to the new R6 version (has even better readability).
We typically get 100% reads and have been using just 1 tag horizontal and centered on the back of the bib. I could see us possibly using 2 tags for an OCR race.

If you're not getting 95%+ reads you should look into getting a better reader and/or better positioning of the antennas.

[Jeff K]

Is there a reason to put it on the back?

[Ohio Race Day]

I put ours on the back because they look like a number one if it glistens in the light

[SR Aaron]

Professionalism? Front of the bib belongs to the client for their logo, sponsors, etc..

[Tim Irvine]

Jeff I do it two ways. When I have custom bibs, the chip goes on the back with a foam spacer. When I am using Road ID bibs, I place it on the front and cover it with a tyvek label that has my logo on it and RFID Chip. It doesn't detract from the look of the bib. However I don't do it with custom bibs since the RD is paying for the bibs and the look.

[Chris Hubbard]

We ran 600 kids last night in two XC races. Two Dogbones vertical on the back with no spacers. Had our first missed read (Total of 1 out of maybe 6k chips) last night. No idea why but we got him on both the hand scorer, photos, and video review.

[reece.bell]

Guys! I just got my first batch of dogbones in. I placed one on the back horizontally and ill be testing a lot over the next 2 days. I have 2 questions

1. Is it necessary to cover the chip with a label?

2. Do I need overhead antennas? Will positioning the antennas higher and tilting up or down be ok in your experience?

Thanks

I love the shoe tags, but I'm getting requests for the bib tags. Even when I say it will cost $300 more. 

[blueridgetiming]

Reece, I would highly urge against using paper labels to cover a chip. In the event of any wet conditions, the label will absorb water and your read rates will be terrible.

[Ohio Race Day]

Reece,

My August 11th post above shows antenna positions.  Since we use a mat antenna, the tag must be vertical.  The side antennas are circular polarized so tag position doesn't matter to them.  See the photo and description above for our way.  Others do it differently with success.

[Run Roanoke]

Anyone know the reads per second a fx9500 can handle? Got asked and wasn't sure.

[Chris Hubbard]

I checked after your email. I've found a couple places that say 300 per second.

[reece.bell]

Just wanted to share the results of my testing today. The FX9500 works great in all situations! I only used 2 antennas in my test. With the antennas point out a little it was too good. Picked up the bib about 18ft out. I had to almost point them straight down to get an accurate finish line. Should be even better in the race with 8 antennas. I'll try to get some video and more pics tomorrow at the race. Thanks again for everyone's help.

[Classic Race Services]

@reece.bell

Here is my finish line...  I have 2 structures, exactly like yours.  The antennas are on the second structure about 9 feet back from the actual designated finish line....

Carole

[Tim Irvine]

I run a similar setup Carole. I have often considered a second truss but not for antennas, but for a downward photo angle. 

[reece.bell]

@ Classic Race Services

Awesome idea! That is exactly what I will try - how far back is it? Any early reads from that distance?

I used 3 overhead antennas yesterday and also put 6 antennas on the sides. I was paranoid about missing people. Turns out that out of 480 runners I got 471 tags read perfectly. This includes some tags placed on backs, on shirts that were wrapped around waists, one that was tucked in a hood, and one in a pocket. The only real problem that I noticed was that for walkers and people that slowed down dramatically before the finish is that they were captured 15 feet early.

[Classic Race Services]

@Reece.bell,

9 feet back seems to work just fine.  I also run a manual timing using a small netbook computer running Race Director timing software at the finish line.  So, I compare the first few times of the runners on the Agee system with the RD system.  At most the difference is 1 to 2 seconds.  An easy adjustment to the clock on Agee and I don't worry about the times again...

My antennas are pointed down on the top truss and just slightly facing forward on the side of the truss.  I have not used any more than 4 antennas and with the FX 9500 I have gotten 100% reads for the past several races.

Carole

[rickcummins05]

Bib Tag Test - Horizontal v. Vertical Question

I'm using Circular Antennas - Mounted on Trussing above - Pointing Straight Down

Did the following test with 4 antennas - then reduced to 2 and did it again - same resuls

2 Bibs on Front of Shirt (one Dogbone mounted Vertically on the BACK of the bib - one mounted Horizontally on the BACK of the bib)

2 Bibs on the Back of the Shirts (same configuration)

With almost every test (multi-lap race set-up - 50+ each time) the Horizontially mounted tag read before the vertical (many times a full second)

The bibs worn on the back of the shirt read almost identically every time.

I ran BOTH directions thru the "finish line" (antennas are parallel with the ground)

There were NO missed reads ever (running as fast as I can thru each time - all the laughs are correct - that isn't very fast)

I'm switching to Bib Tags in next weekend - 

the Question is Am I correct to mount Horizontally with this antenna set up?

I will run tri-pod antennas in the race.

Thank you

Yes, I have read thru these posts many times - It seems that Vertical Mounting is for Linear Antennas (mats)

[BWRTiming]

Theoretically, yes,. you are correct: from what I understand a linear antenna gets the best read when the tag is oriented a specific way. Theoretically if the tag is rotated 90 degrees, there is no read. The way I look at it is this: with a linear antenna you get 100% of the read power trying to read one orientation. With a circular antenna, you get 50% of the read power trying to read each orientation. When I bought my mats (Times-7), I voted for the 100% read power.

Now about my use of the word "theoretically"...  I've watched bibs come in rotated all kinds of angles and they still get read. So I feel good about my FX9500, mats and tags (single Dogbone, vertical, back of bib).

As far as the orientation for YOU and your setup: I believe you need to go with your testing results. But from what I've seen, the orientation shouldn't matter on your setup.

I did test some real wimpy tags that really wouldn't read horizontally with my setup, but I like my Dogbone setup now.

[MarkE]

Rick -

Thanks for sharing your results!  I did a very similar test to yours other than I must not have the stamina you do.  I only did about 1/2 that many laps.  

With my testing I got 100% read on the vertical dogbones and less than 50% on the horizontal.  Vertical was reading 1/2 second+ ahead of the horizontal.  I also tried orienting the antenna differently by rotating them on a vertical axis (always parallel to the ground, changing the "up" arrow to be in line with or across the direction of running).  Results didn't seem to change any.  Not sure why our results vary, but as BWR said, we each need to go with our own testing results.  Before I go live with this setup, I plan to con a bunch of HS kids to do a track or CC workout wearing some bibs.

For what it's worth, I also had some other tags I threw in for comparison (Alien Squiggle and Short Dipoles, both horizontal and vertical).  The only one that got any number of reads was the vertical alien squiggle which ran around 75%.  When these tags would read, they were always 1/4 - 1 second later than the dogbone.

I'd love to hear how your event goes next weekend.  I had a customer ask if I could do bib tags for next years race where he's expecting around 1200 runners.  That's a leap for me right now so I need to make sure whatever I do is rock solid.

[SR Aaron]

MarkE,

If you're going to supply test results could you please supply more information... There's many variables that make up successful reads, specially the type of reader. Depending on the reader, 50% could mean 80% or 100%

[MarkE]

Aaron - Sorry about that.  (2) circular antennas, mounted overhead, pointed straight down (parallel to ground).  Reader = FX9500.  All bibs worn on my chest/stomach.  Weather was cool & dry so there was no sweat or other moisture involved.  If there's anything else that would be interesting to know, let me know.

[SR Aaron]

MarkE - Try tilting the antennas out just so slightly (towards the oncoming runner), test with about 5 degree increments, with just a slight tilt, your horizontals chips should become 100% reads. You'll probably notice it will read a few feet in front of the finish, we hang the top antennas down and behind the truss (a diagonal arm going backwards), the lower position and the extra foot behind the truss brings the "read zone" much closer to the actual finish line by decreasing the invisible circular cone coming off the antenna (if that makes sense).

Compliment that with an antenna on each side, again ever so slightly turned out and you're golden!

[Gregory Butts]

What is the purpose of the foam?

[rtspt.usa]

uhf's biggest enemy is water...human bodies.. the foam puts a buffer between the tag and body..works very well.

another option is to just use 2 tags instead of foam since they are so cheap.

i personally prefer to use 2 tags for big events just because the bib are a little easier to manage.