How reliable is the Thinkify TR-200

[Alan Bingham]

How reliable is thinkify TR-200?

Would you use it for a 2nd finish for example a 10k finish line while using the Motorla FX-9500 for the 5k?

[Ohio Race Day]

Before we used a battery back up UPS (uninterrupted power supply) we had a kid trip on an extension cord and unplug our power.   The little Thinkify TR200 was timing the race and I didn't know it.  It was only a timed kids fun run so it wasn't too serious of an issue.  But the finish line at that spot was about 6 feet wide and it was picking up shoe tags just fine.  If you have two separate finish lines then give it a try.  If you have one finish line then just set up two races in the system and use the same equipment for both.

[Brian Agee]

I have the same story as Ohio Race Day, with the first 10 or so race that I timed I didn't use a UPS battery backup and with at least two of those races someone disconnected our power supply and it wasn't until the race was almost over that I looked down and noticed that my main reader was not running. I knew something was weird because people were not getting picked up until a couple of feet past the finish line, but it wasn't until I saw that the main reader was turned off that I realized that the little TR200 was what was carrying us through the race. Back then I was putting all the antennas on one side of the finish line and athletes were wearing the tags on one side of their body (left hip/left shoe or right hip/right shoe). If you only had one tag and the athlete wasn't wearing it on the side of the body that was facing the TR200's antenna then you will probably miss them. So when you're using only one antenna you have to make sure at least on tag is worn on the side of the body that is facing the antenna.

Oh, and that's just another reason why I don't like bib tags. If you have a TR200, it can easily pick up the slack if your main reader goes out, however it's not strong enough to pick up bib tags reliably unless you got the antenna VERY close to the participant since it's having to read at an angle and since it only reads out 6 feet. With tags on the hip or shoe everything is easier, more reliable, less expensive, easier to transport, and more accurate.

[rtspt.usa]

respectfully, i do not agree with this other than the expense which is well worth it.

with bib tags and mat antennas the reads are 1005 reliable and spot on on the finish line. a linear signal allows for this.

[hubbard47630]

I agree, in our market race directors will go with another timer if we don't offer bib tags. We timed the NCAA D2 Great Midwest Athletic Conference Cross Country Championship this weekend with no issues using bibs with dogbone tags and foam backers. Close finishes were hand recorded and verified by video. All results were quickly certified and awards started 10-15 minutes after the last runners crossed the line.

[John Kirby]

Chris,

What setup did you use for the NCAA race?  The overhead truss system that you posted pics of in a different post?

[hubbard47630]

One almost identical to it only larger, the course had a 24' finish line, two side mount and two overhead antennas.

[Run Roanoke]

Where can you get foam backers?

[Ohio Race Day]

@ Roanoke,
search "foam backers" for prior discussions. There are good suggestions hidden in other threads here.

[Brian Agee]

When I tried bib tags at a few races (and with my tests at home) I purchased the following item:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100210956?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=frost+king+17&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=100210956

I simply cut them into 4" long strips and attached them to the Dogbone that was placed on the back of the bib.

For me, it was definitely more work than simply attaching two shoe/hip tags to a bib with a safety pin and then programming those tags to match the bib number. When I tried bib tags with a foam backing here is what I had to do: I had to go through each bib and attach an RFID tag, then cut up strips of foam, then go through each bib again and attach the foam on the back of each tag (this takes more time than you think if have OCD tendencies), and then go through each bib again to program the chip. It's also important to note that when the foam is on the back of the bib - your small stack of bib easily becomes difficult to manage because now the bibs are a lot thicker than they used to be. So it's not as easy to stack the bibs on top of each other. I know some people are using two tags on the back of the bib, so that's nearly twice the amount of time and cost involved.

Of course I also didn't like the idea of spending the money on the tags and on the foam (and all of the time it took to prepare them) for just a single use. The main reason why I started the business was because I hated seeing small local fundraisers getting hammered by our local timer, so I wanted to keep my base price as low as possible. When using the re-usable tags, I get a very high percentage back (probably 98%+ back every race), so when I get paid for the race, it's nearly 100% profit. Sure, before a race I have to spend a little bit of time making sure the athletes have the tags on correctly, but the amount of time and money I save by not having to attach the foam, not having to set up a truss, and of course not having to buy a trailer to carry everything to the race makes it worth it to me. 

Finally, we are beginning to get more large races now, and most of them have their own custom bibs. I really like that we can simply ask the race director what bib number range they plan to use for their event(s) and we can go ahead and prepare the tags well before we get the bibs from the race director. As you know, many people wait until the last minute to do everything, so I'd imagine that that at least once a year you'd get a race director that doesn't provide the bib until a few days before the race.

[Run Roanoke]

I am not sure about chips on the bibs, just looking into it.  I have around 45 races lined up with 4 or 5 of my own next year. Mostly in the 150-200 range.   So not sure if I want to get into some of the larger local races.  Wouldn't mind getting a couple of the 500+ or more races.

[hubbard47630]

Brian,

I understand and appreciate your point of view. However, if we didn't offer bib tags I would lose at least half my timing jobs to other timers. Locally, RD's are willing to pay more to have them. With my 15' tripod truss I can be set up in under 15 minutes and everything fits in my car.

I'm not against shoe tags but am against losing business to a competitor. Offering the maximum number of options increases our business's potential. We offer both reusable shoe tags and disposable bib tags at different price points.

[rtspt.usa]

there are different ways to skin the dog bone cat..

foam spacers do not necessarily need to be attached to the tag first.. tag can be stuck on bib then foam stuck on tag.

the cutting of the foam doesn't have to be that precise.. as long as it covers most of the tag you are fine. remember the idea here is to create (albeit small) separation between tag and body.  the home depot foam is a great deal. 6 bucks covers about 100 tags.

foam could be skipped altogether and opt for 2 tags if you are really worried.. the tags are only about 12 cents each..

you could also get the tags pre programmed for about 30 cents each.. well worth it for a big race.

for me, the most dreaded task is the programming of the tags --whether bib or shoe..

[John Kirby]

Would you be willing to share the source where you purchase tags?

Thanks

[rtspt.usa]

i just look on ebay, etc..in a pinch i will order from atlas rfid store.. they are about 18 cents each there but you can find cheaper if you look around.

RM Timing Systems will sell pre programmed for about 35 cents

[Brian Agee]

As someone had mentioned in another thread, the system allows you to use many types of readers, antennas, and tags. So each person can use whatever configuration fits their needs best. If you understand the rules of using RFID (discussed here) you can make just about any setup work very well. The read rates you get are basically in your own hands.

I'm always happy to hear when someone gets 100% with a different setup than I recommend, but over the last couple of years I've had others report back that they purchased mat antennas (often from China) and they were getting about 30-60% read rates when using only mat antennas on the finish line. I know some others that purchased name brand mat antennas and when they were used all by themselves the read rates were not much better. When using only mat antennas on the finish line and a chip on the bib it didn't surprise me that the read rates were so poor because the tag is coming across the mat at the worst angle possible (90 degrees) and there is a very good chance that the tag is hidden by some part of their body (belly, breast, etc.). On top of that, when the tag is on the bib it could be breaking other rules with RFID - proximity to body or on a wet (sweaty) surface. I'm not sure how many of these users I'm referring to have joined this forum, so if you've tried a mat antenna I'd encourage you to chime in with what kind your purchased and your review of it.

So I have to ask, are you using ONLY mat antennas or do place panel antennas on the side (angled in towards the finish) like I see with many Chronotrack setups? If you are using side-mounted panel antennas, then I wouldn't be surprised if those antennas are what is doing most of the work. How many races have you timed with mat antennas using bib tags, and how many people were in the race?

Of course I'm happy to hear that you're getting 100%, and in no way am I trying to argue with anyone that says they're getting good results with whatever setup they are using. However my concern is that new users will read some of these threads and assume that they need to go out and spend a ton of money on mat antennas and then blame it on my software if their read rates are not 100%. They might also assume that my recommended setup hasn't worked well and that they must buy all of this extra stuff to get good read rates. The majority of the people using this system simply need an easy an inexpensive system for small to medium sized road races. Most people set everything up the same way that I do and in almost every case they get the same results that I do - 100% read rates. We've personally probably timed close to 100 races this year, so I know it works well. If you look back at some of the other posts from those using bib tags or mat antennas you'll see some where people say stuff like 'I only had 5 missed tags" or something along those lines. Rarely do I hear 100% even though that is what I get at just about every race we time. So in order to keep my support level down I encourage people to use my recommended setup whenever possible. When someone doesn't get good read rates it takes me many hours or even days to work with them to figure what what could have been the problem. So that's why I encourage new customers not to use bib tags or mat antennas unless they are in a position where you have to use them for whatever reason.

When I state that my recommended setup is "more reliable" I'm referring to the fact that if your main reader goes down the little TR200 can easily pick up the slack if you're using side-mounted tags. Also, mat antennas are so expensive that I can see many people buying just one and having a single read point right on the finish line instead of spending a lot less and having multiple read zones throughout the finish line. 

By "less expensive" I'm referring to not only the initial cost, but the long term cost of reusable tags is obviously lower. For the cost of a single 4-6 wide mat antenna you can max out a F9500 8-port reader with eight panel antennas that cover a width of 20+ feet each.

"easier to transport" - It would be hard for me to believe that the extra equipment required for the truss or for the mat antenna is not at least somewhat more bulky (harder to transport) than the small tripods and panel antennas. The core of what you need can easily fit in a small plastic tub (see here).

Finally, I need to clarify that I'm referring to standard UHF RFID mats in this post. If you read the last sentence of this post you'll see that those using Ipico hardware can probably get away with using only mat antennas because their mats are uniquely designed to do a better job of read shoe tags. I can't personally verify that, but when I look at how Ipico works and how their tags are positioned I'd imagine their hardware would work pretty well too - but of course I'm sure the cost for their is much much higher than my system.

[Brian Agee]

Ah, I see, I'm located close to Memphis, so there is at least four other timing companies that people can choose from. We've never had a race director tell us that they wouldn't hire us unless we use bib tags, but I'm sure that day will come. I wonder how many others have had race directors have required bib tags? When a race director contacts me I simply tell them that we use re-usable shoe/hip tags, I don't give them options let them decide. Of course if someone ever demanded bib tags I'd discuss it with them and if they were still adamant that I had to use them then I'll have to decide if we really want to work with that race (we've got a full calendar anyways) and how much extra we'll have to charge for placing the tags on the bibs. If we did want the race, then of course I would probably use 8 antennas on my FX9500 and stagger them on each side of the finish line (the further down the chute the more they're angled in towards the finish line).

Maybe our race directors don't make demands because they see we charge around 1/2 as much as anyone else and we have glowing reviews from race directors here in North East Arkansas. Most race directors I've worked with don't really care, they just want fast and accurate results (with the cool features - photo capture, TV display, etc.) for the lowest possible price.