Open Water Race - do chips work?

[jackrabbittiming]

I am quoting an Open Water Swim race.  Because I am unsure of the performance of chips, I am quoting it as a manually-timed race.  Anybody have a better solution to this sort of race?

[JK Race Timing Systems]

Hi

Id say Hutag is the only way to go.

I have 60 collected, they are bloody expensive but I am going to purchase 30 every month.

They have a new version that is way more sensitive and not orientation sensitive called the XC2.

Check them out, you can purchase a demo kit

http://www.hutag.com/

Best regards

John

[Hronometar]

I have timed an open swim race last year with HuTags. Here is a video and some photos of setup:

• photo 1,
• photo 2.

The only problem with tags is that they cannot be read if they are under the water. Swimmers need to touch finish line board and in that case their hand with the tag will be in the air and the tag will be read. I had around 5 participants that they didn't follow instructions. If I remember well, we didn't have any problem with timing this type of competition. Settings in ART was the same like for running events. The only thing I didn't like about setup of my hardware is that I used 2 readers instead of one.

As John said, new series of HuTags has Impinj's Monza R6 IC and they are more sensitive and have longer read range. I have older version and usually getting 100% of read rate on running lap races I use them for. This spring I was timing a 6h, 12h, 50km and 100km races on a 2 km loop where I didn't have any missed split and for 13 hours of timing, we collected 2200+ splits for only 65 participants. HuTags are very reliable tags and good investment.

We are hired again for that open swim race for 2018, but this year I will use Tyvek wrist bands to mount the tag around a wrist. Here are the wrist bands I plan to purchase. Does anyone know a better solution for the wrist bands?

jackrabbittiming, if you would time it manually, make sure all participant have bib # written on a shoulder and upper back on the side that is closer to a platform where you will be located. I have timed that race manually in 2016 and had that problem that we couldn't see written bib # for some participants.

[Ted Finch]

HuTags may seem expensive as a one off purchase but if you have spread the cost over a year of events they become cost effective. HuTags work well for cross country, trail races and obstacle races. Like all rfid tags they are less likely to work covered in wet clothing.
If the timing point is on shore then you give a chance for water to disperse.

Ted

[Zoli]

Hronometar, what kind of wristband do you have for Hutag? I have from hutag.com but it is too big to wrist.
I'm using tywek wristband for mud races (similar than spartan) when the chip has to be on the wrist. I lose 1-2pcs of HuTag all the time :(
This kind of 'glue' is not the best: https://www.eventwristbands.com/images/products/791.jpg
(Seems we are close to each other :))

[Hronometar]

Zoli, I have some 1" x 10" (similar like you posted) and they fit well for wrist attachment. Do not have any experience about their performance in water. I have also some from Edward from Human Tagging and I am agree they are too big for a wrist. And too expensive compared with other market places. Sometimes also short for somebody's ankle. I was using neoprene straps for that open swim race last year, and some participants was complaining the tag is too big around their wrist while they swim.

Could you share some of photos with wrist attachment from races you timed?

Why do you lose the tags? Participants lose them, do not return them or something other? I have never lost any of my HuTags permanently, but I didn't time much races with them. Maybe around 20 max. I do not take any deposit. Sending emails 2 days before competition how to be used the tags and that they need to be returned after the usage. Race director publish info about the tag usage on his FB page, volunteers in registration center repeat the same when participants assign registration forms, official speaker also announce it and at the end in finish line area volunteers collect the tags when participants receiving finisher medals. Sometimes participants take some of the tags with them, but they are returned when race directors call/email them.

Tim uses HuTags a lot. Tim, please can you tell us your experience about collecting the tags and what type of strap do you use for different type of races? How do you guys clean them and neoprene straps after trail and mud races? Can you easily clean labels on the tags and does printing become brighter with washing?

Yep, we are! :)

[Ted Finch]

We have used HuTags exclusively for almost 3 years now. As we were initially timing some Obstacle races we invested in the Hutags and neoprene straps. In general no loss ot tags on the course and provided we supervise the finish chute almost no losses at tag collection. ( the neoprene straps are comfortable and runners soon don't notice them) ( retirees that don't reach the finish can go off with tags but we have usually managed to get them back through the post!)

For Ultras we also use the same system and some runners will put tags on their arms or wrists especially where we use the tags as relay batons. Side antenna will capture the tags at the finish if worn on ankle or wrist.

Re using tags and straps does require some pre race and post race work. We have stored the tags on straps on racks and this system has worked well but can be a bit bulky and so i am investigating boxes for chip storage. Afterwards a swirl round in a plastic tub to remove any major mud and then batches into the washing machine. The vinyl (?) labels from Hutag have been laser printed with the tag number and survive OK in use and washing - we have re labelled some from time to time.

Note we try not to re program tags but use the same number range whenever possible,

I have also used the HuTag Tyveck straps a couple of times - some runners found attaching these a challenge but in general they worked well.

Oh and we expect 100% reads but do get a few misses at OCRs. ( the video camera back up really helps here!) Note that tags don't read under water or under multi layers of wet clothing or when left in the car park! I will spend time at the start reminding runners that if they can't see the tag then neither can the radios!

Cheers
Ted
Keep it Simple Timing

[JK Race Timing Systems]

I wouldnt be happy to be losing a couple of Hutags per race. They are costing me over 7 euros a piece.

I just bought in some tyvek wristbands from ebay at 19mm thick and 250mm Long but they are not long enough for large wrists. They all seem to be approx 250mm Long. (Ted Just reading your post where do you get the 10" long ones from)

Does anyone know of a supplier of long tyvek bracelets ( Cheap ones)

I must do some checking now on the integrity of the  adhesiveness of the bracelets after reading your post.

Best regards

JK

[Zoli]

Hronometar, I don't have own photo, but you can find the tyvek wristband with chip here: https://www.bakonyrun.hu/galeria-br-2-0/
Participants lose the tag. In this kind race the wristband tear next to the zigzag glue ... usually on the 'barrier' (last time 2pcs of 820). I'm adding the missing tags to the invoice and the RD pay them. I'm looking for other tywek with different 'glue', not this zigzag :)
I never lost any chip on road race. The RD collecting the chip next to the finish line.

[Zoli]

Ted, I created cheap box for tags: https://photos.app.goo.gl/O9hKyaexCsHx0G712
The paper tray of the beer, duct tape around it.
http://www.borsodisorgyar.hu/upload/webshop/item/140724100623_l92Y0Y_becks_tray_medium_600.jpg
Numbers on the front side of the box (box1: 1-10; 11-20; 21-30 box2: 31-40 ....), 30pcs in the box.
Need to drink lots of beer because sometimes need to change the paper box :)

I used neoprene to the relay in the last mud race. I created a little 'ring' to the long strap: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRwz75uy3y2acX1W2
I'm not happy because most of the straps need to lots of time to clean: https://photos.app.goo.gl/9BtnVNQqOTUAT8xU2
Any idea how to solve relay with HuTag but without neoprene strap?

Ted, where is your side antenna if it is ok for ankle and writst too?
I put it down if I use the chip on ankle: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ExLKj5lX2btY7iBj1
Upper if the chip is on wrist: https://photos.app.goo.gl/iljFVeHo6vjfe5Gq2

[Brian Agee]

:)  Growing up on a vineyard we would always use the beer flats to hold quarts of blueberries or raspberries. We also had many acres of Muscadines.

The local liqueur store or convenience store was always glad to give them to us instead of just throwing them away. Using them to hold HuTags is a great way to recycle them. I'll have to do this the next time we use the HuTags. Thanks for sharing!

[Ted Finch]

For side antenna we usually place two each side of the finish about 30 cm above the ground. These are larger Motorola type driven by FX9500 reader. They will read ankles and wrists placements unless runners go through the lines with arms above their head!

For Ultra relays we have timing points in a box at the change over. Runners approach the box get a split time and then hand over the tag. No issues so far in removing the strap.

I will see if I can find some photos or will get some at the next event.

Ted

[Anders]

We are timing a few open water races every summer and have tried a few different types of wristbands.

Hutag, perfect reading (100%). But very expensive and I have hade quite a lot of swimmers complaining that they feels very heavy after a few km. So therefore we will not use them.

Tyvek, DO NOT USE! They say they are water proof, and yes they are BUT the will be very wet and sticks to the skin. This will make them very bad for reading. I hav tested them at two races and they had about 30% reading... A real disaster...

PVC ID-band, like they have at the hospital. We have used these at about 3000 swimmers and they works very well, I guess about 98% reading. The times we don't get any reading it has almost always been because of swimmer failure (like using the wrong arm).

We also have bought siliconrubber ones with chips inside them, with small "spikes" at the backside of the chip. They works good (95%) but they have e tendency too loose. so we lost about 10 chips every time. Too expensive to use...

[Ted Finch]

Could you ( afford to ) use a band on each wrist to catch the leading arm for swimmers?
Ted

[Anders]

We only use one band because of the cost. But most of the swimmers have no problems to use correct arm.

A bigger problem is when they are so tired that they don't have the force to lift the arm high enough. See the picture from one of the races. The winner had the arm a little bit to low since the antenna starts about where he has his thumb. 

[Papaya25]

Hello Anders, for this race types, i use this chip:

This chip are waterproof, for triatlhon, aquatlhon and more.

I buy this chip in china.

[Anders]

I have tried the original(?) HuTag, but they are way too expensive...

Du you have any link to the china supplier?

[Anders]

What type of antennas do you use? Where do you place them?

[Michael Channon]

Interested to read about open water swimming. I was waching an even in the UK and they had velcro wristbands with (I guess) eusable chips. 
I was chatting to a swimmer and they were explaining the rules and one that stuck in my mind was that they had to wear a brightly coloured swim hat. I resumed this was a safety think so make them more easy to see.
If that's the case for most open water swimming maybe putting the timing chip in the swim hat is an option. It's out of the water, so should give good read rates.
Just wonderng!  

[JK Race Timing Systems]

Hi Michael

Just remember too though that you dont want the sensitivity too good either or you will find it very hard to guarantee the finish sequence between close swimmers.

Its something that I am looking into aswell at the moment after being contacted about a tri .

[Anders]

We have done a lot of open water races and a lot of testing to find the best set up. We have tested with the chip under the swim hat, only about 50% reading. I think it is because of the wet hair.
The best have been HuTag but a lot of the swimmers say that after a few kilometer it start to become very heavy...
We have a race tomorrow there we will try a new antenna setup. I might publish a few pictures after that.
/Anders

[5Kevents.org]

Could you manually enter the bib numbers for the swim portion?

[Ted Finch]

A couple of thoughts.

For triathlon or Duathlon with the timing point outside the pool or at the swim landing point then ankle straps and Hutags will work fine. We timed two junior Duahlons this summer and used a typical read point with a FX7400 reader and side antenna at the pool exit.

For open water swimming, where the timing is a hand touch, using a RFID chip system adds a different set of problems. If a Hutag at 50gms ( 2 oz) really is too heavy . ( Probably lighter than many sports watches??) then consider using the Tyvek straps rather then the neoprene straps. 

Cheers

Ted