Importing Agee Data into Hy-Tek

[rprout]

Is anyone having problems getting Agee data into Hy-tek CC module. Finally, figured out a work around to pull times and bibs in.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Unless something has changed with all the updates since XC season......it worked just fine for me.

[rprout]

Question for you, did you Get Times or import it into the CC module. Ran into a gut at the Missouri Track and Field Coaches Clinic last weekend that was having problems. If you pulled it into the CC module can you give me an idea of how you did it.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Ok...importing process is a little different from....let's say s cradle watch.....here is what I do.

1. Open Hytek go to run then CC/RR mode
2. Times ....Read Times....(DON'T SAVE HERE! Just X the window to close.)
3. Match and THEN save (X to close window)
4.Update (so it goes to a track event)
5.Score or list the event ( Make sure Heat/flight results option is NOT checked in the preference menu for "Results for List ans Score" )

[rprout]

Thank you so much, update was the piece of the puzzle I didn't have. Messed around with it last night and got it.

[Peak Performance Timing]

You are welcome.

[Alan Bingham]

I've done it, it's located in the VIEW REPORTS menu when you've opened a race. it allows you to name the file to match.

When you set up your cross country event, what I do is put a subfolder in my TFMeets folder I put the Hy-Tek Meet Manager database in that folder, and you will then need to put the lif files into the folder, there are settings in interface for the cross country/Road Race mode in the RUN menu, you go to that interface tab and select Finishlynx file sharing, then in the 2nd tab you click that and in that menu is CHANGE DATA DIRECTORY, point that to where you put your lif files.

I've found that the ART software does not put the finish place into the file, that causes Meet Manager in CC/Road Race to freak out.  I've reported the bug to Brian, I'm not sure if it's been fixed yet.

I timed a XC meet with my Finishlynx camera and was able to see what they are sending in their .lif file (Lynx Interface File).

I believe you can add the finish places to the file, It goes before the first comma, and it's a simple text file, so it can be edited with Notepad, Line 1 is the event information, line 2 is the first place, so add a 1 there and then on the next line a 2, and so on.

I've found that you can add them to the RUN menu, but you won't get cross country scoring or road race age groups in the run menu.

Oh, you add the times in the Cross country menu (that's a tab in the RUN menu). You click the TIME tab and then inside of that menu is a READ TIMES tab that you click.

it should pull in the times and competitor numbers.

You should have the competitors in your athlete menu with the same bib/competitor numbers. This can be done by importing the athletes from ART software. You will have to do a CSV text file.

I've uploaded an excel file I use to make a text file for uploading into meet manager, There is information about it in line 139 beyond, Also if your entering dates you need to put an apostrophe in front of the date. such as '12/22/2014 if you don't do that you get Window's dates which is a 6 digit number. Also there is a column on the far right side, after you enter the data into the columns on the left side you select that data and copy it into a notepad and save as a text file and then you can import that into meet manager. If you're using MM you should be able to figure out how to use the file.

[Alan Bingham]

to fix the ART export lif file, use notepad and edit the file adding the finish place before the first comma in every line.

skip first line, that is event information, but on line 2 put 1, then on line three put 2 and so on down the list to your final place.

[Alan Bingham]

I found that it goes fine into the run menu when you press F-3 (note you need to put the file into the correct directory, and that's setup in the track interface menu and then the update start list, there is a change data directory tab in the update start list menu).

like I said, it works fine in Track mode (Run menu), but because the file is missing finish place, it scrambles the times and competitor numbers, if you edit the file to fix the finish places it should work fine.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Alan

You don't need to add the place if you follow my method outlined in above post.

[Alan Bingham]

Yes, but your method is a work around because ART software isn't adding the finish place to the .lif file.

I found the problem when I used the ART software to time our championship meet, I had to set up 10 different races for each age group. The system worked perfectly and I didn't have to import data into Meet Manager, but we were running a manual backup system, The ART software was much faster, and the results report is fine and quick to print out, I could get the data printed and to the announcer much faster than I could do the manual system using pull off bib tags and a manual timing system, however I did try to import the ART file into the software, and I found that the missing finish places from the file would scramble the times and not link them to the correct competitors. Sure I could print the results. but when I compared them to the ART results, I had difference competitors, sure the times in MM are in order, but the BIB numbers scramble into a random order, and that's not good! giving the time for 1st place to someone else and every time to just random people doesn't work. I did find out that If I simply pressed F-3 in the Track menu it would pull the times and competitors in correctly, but not so in XC mode.

Until Brian fixes the export of the lif file I am not going to use ART and MM together, I don't feel like editing the .lif file, if I have to do that, I simply setup my finishlynx camera and judge the event using the camera, while its not as fast as RFID, it is 100% accurate time, since the gun controls the start of the clock. ART is not fully automatic timing, and it doesn't split ties very well, but a line camera capturing 1000 frames per second is able to judge to the 10,000 th of a second, and if I get a tie on Finishlynx, its a tie.

Bottom line is that ART is fine with it's own reports, and there really isn't any need to import into Hy-Tek Meet Manager unless, your high school league requires it, and if it does, then I suggest you enter that data into the CC mode by editing the .lif file so its correct.

Track mode does not correctly do the scoring reports in the results menu, the only way to print out results correctly is to use the flat HTML mode from the CC/RR menu, you can't get that report from the results menu, the scores don't show up, only from the Track / SCORE tab can you get a result to print.

[rtspt.usa]

actually the problem is really with Hytek MM since other scoring programs handle the placing on their own.

[Alan Bingham]

I would agree with that except that I didn't have the scrambling problem when I used my Finishlynx camera to time a cross country event.

If Finishlynx is sending finish place, then other people who are writing softwear to use the Finishlynx setting should follow the Finishlynx standard.

[rtspt.usa]

correct, you wouldn't have that issue with lynx because it writes place as well but the issue is with Hytek and it isn't "smart" enough like other scoring programs to handle the placing issue on its own.

XC/RR was an afterthought in Hytek. as i recall Hytek can't even handle a RR with more than 1,000 competitors..

[Alan Bingham]

Meet Manager has always been a pain, I've given up reporting bugs in it, There was a guy there, and he couldn't understand that we used to be able to get top times in Team Manager for relays when the program was DOS, but when they went to windows, they lost the ability to get the top A relay time vs the Top B relay time, now you have to do an all relay time and scratch the extras because they don't know how to sort on the A, B, Cs We have 16 teams in our conference, if we want the top 50 relay times, we can't get the best of the A's and the B's, we have to do them all. I went round and round and gave up...its crap, and I use it because our conference uses it.

[rtspt.usa]

i know.. that operation is a whole other story...they NEVER admit anything when a bug is introduced..

anyway, how about exporting the excel file and running a simple macro to clean it up to Hytek acceptable lif format?

if there was a way to push the ART lif file via tcp then it could be run through lynx and populated instantly..

[Peak Performance Timing]

Alan,

I am not sure that you should look at my method of getting the times from ART into the CC/RR module as work around. When done properly, TIMES are NOT Scrambled as you say. Although ART doesn't put a place in the lif file, it is possible to get results using ART as a stand alone and import them into HyTek and have proper ORDER and SCORING using the CC/RR module. I understand your point, but I personally would be upset if Brian changed the lif file output now. He already changed it to make it so it works like it does now and if he changed it, "the work around" would not allow you to get results and proper placing in HyTek without MAJOR data manipulation.You don't need the place in the lif file if you do the steps I have outlined above. Just as when using a cradle watch or some other method requires you to do certain steps to get data properly imported into HyTek, ART does too. It is not difficult, I used it all last XC season. I might add the reason I even use HyTek with the ART system at this point is for the results format and also because the schools in our area use Athletic.net  heavily and importing and exporting information between athletic.net and Hytek is very convenient and easy. 

 I also have used Finishlynx cameras for Track and Field for years and know that it is impossible to ever beat the accuracy of a linescan camera systems. I would like to be able to use the ART in conjunction with the Finishlynx cameras like it works with the Ipico system. What we need is a module for the FinishLynx software for the Laptime Option that can take the information either from the RFID readers that work with ART or a way to get the data from ART system into the Laptime module of Finishlynx software as the information happens, that way the readers could be used to make preliminary marks for finishers and then you could make final adjustments with the Finishlynx video.  

But in my opinion,  ART works fine the way it is now with HyTek when used as a stand alone system. GREAT JOB, Brian!

[Alan Bingham]

I have used my finishlynx camera for XC championship meets, and I use it for my Track & Field Meets, I have the lap time mod in my software, I think that the best thing Finishlynx can do is use the raw RFID reader using ip configuration and read the chips as they go by, I also have the network commport option, so can set IP address in my scoreboard and my Lap-time settings. I think what they need to do is allow me to hook my RFID reader into the network so that it can be counting the laps as they athletes go by the antennas. 

I'm going to test the system later in the season as I move into track,

I am not sure I want to use ART with Finishlynx, but my plan right now is to run ART stand alone for lap counting and splits, I can judge the splits with the camera if I capture every lap of the athletes going by, but I usually judge the splits for lap-times on a 2nd computer so the event doesn't have to wait for it. (however the more I use it the better I get at doing it, and its almost as fast as timing a finish, and if you put a 2nd hip number on the athletes chest, with idenilynx I can see the athletes coming across the finish line and identify them pretty easy in the distance events).

I cant remember right now how fast it was to get results into hy-tek with the finishlynx, but I think it was as fast as pressing the get times button in the times menu, I think you got the ranks too, and could press match and score as soon as you pressed READ TIMES->MATCH->SCORE.

We need to let Finishlynx know we have the readers and ask what they are going to do to support them. That's my guess with the RFID and their software. 

my view of ART at our championship meet and HY-TEK, was ART was faster and the results were as fast as the last athlete crossing the line. (we needed to hold the next race with ART until the final athlete finished, but I am sure the more we do these the better we will get at them. (also I could have started with one of our stop watches and then matched the time on the timing computer).

I have 2 Ultrak L10s

In the setup in Hy-Tek CC/RR timing mode it has DAG Chip Text File, IPICO Sports Chip Timing, AccuChip Timing, MyLaps Timing,

I am sure that each of these have a format that might be better than Finishlynx .lif files.

[Alan Bingham]

In the Finishlynx help file it states the following:

FinishLynx
FinishLynx creates result text files with the extension .lif. In the CC/RR Module, click Times and then click Read Times and you will be able to select any .lif file. The results will be imported into both the Times module and the Ranks module. If splits are in the result file, they will be imported, but only if there are competitor numbers included in the file. Next you click Match and then click Save to finalize the matching of competitor ranks to the times. After matching, go to Scores / List and Scores to get the results. If using multiple chutes, a heat is the same as a chute, but after importing more than one chute, you will have to use the Merge Chutes choice to merge the chutes together. To include splits, if any, in the result reports, check the Include Splits check box found at the top of the CC/RR Module.

In the FinishLynx File Sharing mode, you have the option to only import the times if you use the Lynx system to simply record times. MEET MANAGER will recognize that only times exist in the .lif file and will warn you of such. If splits are in the result file, they will be imported, but only if there are competitor numbers included in the file.

To specify the location for MEET MANAGER to look for the .lif files, click Interfaces / CC/RR Button Timer - FinishLynx and click Change Data Directory. The default directory is c:\tfmeets4.

I've looked at the ART lif file and the only thing it was missing was the finish place, and what was causing the error in the CC/RR menu, so shouldn't that be fixed so that you don't have to go to the Track menu to get your scores?

Also looking at the help information above, if splits were in the file, they would be imported also...I think that would be pretty cool, if Brian fixed the fnish place bug and added splits.

I will point out that when I use my ULTRAK L10, it only has a list of times, no competitor numbers.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Alan,

The split capability would be a nice addition. :)

As it stands now, you DON'T need to go to the track menu to get scores. It can be done through the XC/RR module.

[Brian Agee]

Has a consensus been reached?  Should I add Place right before the bib number in the .life file? It would only take a second to do.

I've never used HyTek. The company that asked me to make the .evt import and the .lif export file didn't really know a lot about it either. They had a coach that wanted the software to interface with HyTek and the attached files is all they gave me to work with regarding the .lif file. So I'm happy to fill in any of the other fields if it will help.

I'm sure I can get splits in there too if someone can tell me what format to use for those records. Seems like I've looked for it before, but isn't there a file spec sheet that people like me can use so that I know exactly how to build the interface files?

[rtspt.usa]

Brian,
attatched is a Lynx.lif file with splits in it.
as you probably already know any data not to be included (like name and affiliation) just need a comma it its place just like you already have in there now.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Brian,

I have used HyTek heavily through the years and I don't have any trouble using your lif file as it is now to get XC results and scores using Hytek's XC/RR module. I am not sure what the exact problem for others is. I would hate for you to change it and create problems that don't exist (at least for me) now. The splits are something that would be nice, not only for when your system is used as a stand alone for cross country, but when used in conjunction with the Finishlynx cameras. But I think the fix for the latter split solution is a separate problem from the lif export you currently provide.


Have a Merry Christmas, and Remember Jesus is the Reason for the season :)

[Peak Performance Timing]

Alan,

I missed you post earlier when you talked about the real time reading of the RFID info and the RAW data....I have talked with Jeff at finishlynx about the interface of Motorola readers and the lap time module and they haven't made a way to get data from these....he said they had experimented with Impinj readers. I have a fellow timer in my area who has told me it is possible to get raw data from any reader into the laptime module, but I haven't had a chance to get with him to talk about the details.

[Tim Irvine]

If you do change it, can you keep the current config for that file as an option also? It does just what I need it to do also.

[Alan Bingham]

I think that if you fixed it it wouldn't effect those who are doing it the 1 way and would fix the problem I ran into in October, I did send you a copy of the file from my finishlynx camera, but I think I'll send you a new file that has lap splits in it from a 3000 meter race.   

I do believe that lap-times only work in version 4.0 and higher of meet manager, 

What I found was that the ART file was only missing the finish place which should be before the first comma, the bib and time is in the right column, I'll also see if I can get the format for you. 

Alan. 

[blueridgetiming]

I don't know how others who use the lif feel about the lif file creation, but as a minor request when the file is saved, is it possible to still ask for event,round,and section....but the have the file saved as "001-1-01.lif" instead of "1_1_1_racename.lif"?

It's easy enough to change the name, but would make life easier pulling things into meet manager/meetpro on raceday, since they look at a specific file name.

If it's a hassle to change the code, then it's better to just change after.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Iam not sure what you are doing that you need to change the name......I use Hytek Meet Manager all the time with ART and never need to change the name as long as the event # are correct.

[blueridgetiming]

Peak, I've been trying to get the results to pull in, and even though I have everything pointed to the correct directory, I get the message "lif results file not found". However, if I change the lif to that format, it pulls into MM fine. Now that I know others have had success, this change isn't necessary. Maybe its a MM setting, but I'll keep trying too.

[Peak Performance Timing]

That seems strange.....what version of MM are you using? I have had success with all versions from 3.0 up to the latest 5.0

[rtspt.usa]

Peak,

in ART are you creating your events manually or using the create race from Hytek evt?

[Peak Performance Timing]

Creating them from Hytek.....and BINGO...that's why it is working for me!

[blueridgetiming]

Peak, you must have a forgiving version of MM.

I created races in MM. Then created races in ART through the evt option. The races show up fine, but when I go to save the lif and pull it over to MM, I get a no result found error. But,if I rename the text file manually 001-1-01, it works fine.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Are you using the CC/RR module in MM or are you doing it from the Run menu and then "Get Times"?

[blueridgetiming]

I was actually using meetpro, but had tried MM in the past without success.

So you are saying it will work within cc/RR module and not the general run screen or visa versa?

[Peak Performance Timing]

Blueridge,

It will work in the CC/RR module as named by Agee, and also in the regular run screen.

[rtspt.usa]

i import into MP all of the time..

just do the import lynx file selection.

[rtspt.usa]

...and with that you can name your ART file anything that you want.

[blueridgetiming]

Thanks SL...learn something everyday!

[blueridgetiming]

The lif features are now working just fine...no need to change anything except the time it takes me to figure out certain things :)

On another note or possible feature that would be amazing would be the option to produce an lif to include splits with the formatting that lynx uses. I imagine it would just be some reordering of the current lif.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Blueridge,

Brian did an update that included the splits only for me during track season, but I don't think he ever incorporated it into the main program.......I don't have the ability to do hytek splits in the new versions.   It was as simple as adding quote marks or commas or something on his end......Can't remember, maybe Brian can remember what he did.......I would also like that capability back. I was using the lif file from ART during track season to capture splits from distance races and importing them into Hytek and then using my Lynx cameras for the finish times.

[rtspt.usa]

The ability to push it into lynx via lynx's Laptime would be the way you want to go.
That way the data would be in the lif file for Hytek and others to populate but most importantly viewing the Art chip data with the photo finish would make things nice for NCAA/ Usatf rules.
A simple file export from art would get the job done.
Sure it can be worked from the excel export but that is time consuming.
Another file export report like for Hytek would be perfect.

[blueridgetiming]

Thanks Peak. I notice splits on the LIF output, but haven't yet been able to do what I wanted with them. 

The ability to view AGE captured times in Lynx would be amazing!

[Peak Performance Timing]

Blue Ridge, 

There is a company in Tacoma Washington that sells the "Orbiter" RFID  system. VERY expensive....not so great.....I digress......anyway I was reading where FinishLynx gave them appoval to write middleware for the readers (FX7400)  they use in their systems this last summer......I called and inquired about their middleware, they told me they would flash it on to my reader for $6500,NOT HAPPENING.......I talked a lot with the tech people at Finishlynx last summer and spring about flashing a reader for me, and they flat out said no.....they have the capability to make our readers interface with the laptime module on Finishlynx, but aren't willing to share......I think they are riding IPICO until it dies.......anyway it wold be sweet to be able to catch approximate splits with ART and fine tune them with a Finishlynx camera, but I guess I'll have to wait until somebody smarter with more time can figure out, write and share the code I need.

[rtspt.usa]

as i've mentioned before, as a minimum we just need a revised export file to save and then use a freeware program to push it via tcp/ip via the generic laptime interface in lynx..

i have a few macros that can do it but it would be better and quicker to eliminate them and just have an export built into ART.

i've offered to pay Brian to add it but haven't heard back.

fyi ipico won't die per se as the company who originally designed it (Trident Rfid) is back in business and uses the same protocol.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Rprout,

Just a figure of speech :) Ipico is really a good system, other than the mats, that soak up water like a bathroom towel :/ ....

[Brian Agee]

I apologize for the delayed response. I'm sure the Fall timing season is starting to hit some of you hard like it is me. We have been timing multiple races each weekend and starting this week we will be timing Cross Country races during the week. We actually have a XC race in less than 4 hours that we're timing. When the Spring and Fall timing season gets busy, the other parts of the business get busy too (software and hardware sales, plus a big increase in the number of phone calls and emails from new or potential customers that I have to stay on top of). So questions that take time to research and are non-emergency sometimes get pushed on the back burner until I can block off adequate time to answer them. I'm waiting on a data import to finish here at the office job so I wanted to send a quick response before heading out to the XC race.

I just looked at the code and it does include the split times in the .lif file, and that was included for everyone when I released version 4.7.

I'd love to interface with other systems more. Writing interfaces and data imports, between governmental agencies and other vendors, is something I do all the time at my office job. I'm happy to import/export any file or data that makes something easier for a large group of users, however I do not want to go down the same path that was taken with the HyTek interface. Here is how that went: I contacted HyTek (cha...@hy-tekltd.com) an inquired about an interface but I never received a response back. If I remember correctly I even called HyTek, and it was obvious they were not interested in helping in any way, or the person I was talking with had no clue what I wanted. So then one of my re-sellers send me a couple of file types (the .evt and .lif) and we tried to interpret it on our own. After quiet a bit of time I finally got it working for them, but I later found out that it did not work for other customers (so apparently the re-seller was using an older version of HyTek or something). So again I had to get more files and try to fix the interface with input from users (which of course consisted them just taking their best guess on what each field represents).

It simply burns too much time to write an interface when there is a lack of consistency and a lack of detailed specs on what exactly should be exported/imported. I've never used HyTek, but from what I can see, what is currently there seems to be working fine. However that was only after months (maybe years) of struggling to get specs on the file formats and often I was getting conflicting information from customers. So I'm not really interested in building something based on second hand knowledge, someone's opinion or their best guess, and without reasonable assurance that it will produce the desired results. If FinishLynx or any other system can provide official file specs I'd be happy to interface with them. If anyone can get the official specs or they have a point of contact then let me know and I'll reach out to them.

[rtspt.usa]

That is too bad. I could have saved you a lot of time on the lif file import. I use live splits all of the time with my other system.
Additionally the specs that I sent you from the Lynx laptime import are indeed correct and work after clean inning up the Hytek export to match the parameters.
It is their generic import/export that Lynx uses for a Lynx to lynx transfer. It was not too difficult to analyze the data output and duplicate it.

[Nicholas Ireland]

So, as it stands right now, am I going to be able to import results from ART to Hy-Tek via Peak's method posted on 12/21/14?  I have a state meet timer who refuses to receive results from sectionals in any format but Hy-Tek.  Frustrated but to no avail.  I am about to have to shell out $300 from my tiny XC budget, but I want to at least have some confidence it can be made to work to his satisfaction. 

Peak, what do you think?

[rtspt.usa]

Just send me your art database and I'll import into Hytek and create the necessary file for you.

As one who compiles entries for a few sectionals myself I can understand the Hytek requirement especially for track and field.
XC easier but the state timer is probably using Hytek to s ore and thus an advancer export is the easiest especially when you have a lot of files coming in.

[blueridgetiming]

It'll work fine. The only thing you may have to do is rename the lif to fit the proper event number within MM. Peaks method will work, but I'd personally prefer just renaming one file.

On a side note, I feel your frustrations as I experienced the same. But with a little fight you'll figure it out and never look back.

As a sidenote, if anyone happens to know how to null fill a split in an lif file I'd be interested in talking to you. As of now, if a split is missed that runner would be given a split time of 0:00.00 making them the top rank coming through.