Avid Sibelius V7.1.3 X86 X64 - DYNAMiCS [ds]
Nguyet Edmondson
Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by CB - 06 Apr 02:13PM (edited 13 Jul 05:06PM) Hide picture Hi,
For everyone who has spent time improvising with a midi keyboard and the new Sibelius Sounds, who didn't realize the potential of this incredible library, far more expressive than other very expensive orchestral libraries on the market.
The problem is that Sibelius workflow isn't enough to make a score sound as good as a sequencer with the same sound content can provide in less time.
It would just be great if it was considered legal for a Sibelius user (who have already purchased the software) to sample himself the new 38Go library, allowed him to play with expressivity theses samples within Cubase for example, through a kontakt instrument.
Am I allowed to sample the new library or not, being understood that theses .nki files are exclusively preserved by me and not redistributed ?
Thank you for answer, and sorry my poor english !
All the best,
CB
P.S: Moreover, I would be interested to know if a Sibelius user is allowed to use the sounds within commercial projects ? Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Robin Walker - 06 Apr 02:25PM Hide picture The sound libraries provided with Sibelius 6 and Sibelius 7 can be played only by the Sibelius Player hard wired into those products.
The Sibelius 6/7 sounds libraries cannot be played by Kontakt: they are not even in a Kontakt-playable format.
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Sibelius 7.5/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by CB - 06 Apr 02:34PM (edited 13 Jul 05:06PM) Hide picture Thanks for your answer !
I know they are not compatible.
However, I would know if the procedure described below is legal or not:
1> Enter chromatic scales for each instrument in Sibelius
2> Export audio outside Sibelius
3> Import audio in kontakt
4> Edit samples in kontakt
5> Open Cubase and score a film playing with theses samples
6> Publish my musical composition online and potentially earn money on it
Am I allowed to do this ?
All the best,
CB Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Bob Morabito - 06 Apr 03:16PM Hide picture My opinion is that you're not allowed to do this--however only Avid could say for sure.
You can contact them here, by filling out the form:
_form.html
Thanks Bob
--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Laurence Payne - 06 Apr 03:25PM Hide picture > Thanks for your answer !
>
> I know they are not compatible.
> However, I would know if the procedure described below is legal or not:
> 1> Enter chromatic scales for each instrument in Sibelius
> 2> Export audio outside Sibelius
> 3> Import audio in kontakt
> 4> Edit samples in kontakt
> 5> Open Cubase and score a film playing with theses samples
> 6> Publish my musical composition online and potentially earn money on it
This would be an enormous amount of work, and you'd probably just end up realising the Sounds aren't THAT great compared to other reasonably-priced sound sets that WILL work in Cubase.
A lot of the benefit of the Sounds is the way they are mapped to articulations, text directions etc. in Sibelius. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by CB - 06 Apr 03:59PM (edited 13 Jul 05:07PM) Hide picture I've already tried to sample a cello patch: it takes no so long hours you can imagine and resampled, it sounds very very good !
I agree that there are reasonably-priced samples libraries around us, however Sibelius library sounds human with a content far more emotional than VSL dry patches for exemple. Moreover Sibelius library shapes this kind of unity you can't achieve by reverb dry samples together. Finally there is no sound missing, from Wagner Tuba to Chamber strings (that I love as much as the VSL chamber strings). At the end, we understand each other but I would be interested to know if this practice was so illegal.
All the best,
CB Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by CB - 06 Apr 04:03PM Hide picture >> by the bye, has anyone already included Sibelius content in a commercial project ? Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Philip R - 06 Apr 04:16PM Hide picture That's an interesting question.
Try this one: Although Sibelius fonts work best with Sibelius, there's no legal impediment (as far as I know) to using them with other software (Word, Illustrator, etc). So why wouldn't samples be the same?
Also: You export an audio file from Sibelius, and open it in Cubase. You add other instruments, live vocals, etc. to the mix and make a final composition. Surely this is OK. What Charlie wants to do is essentially the same thing, but at a micro-level on a per-note basis.
I agree that it seems like not the greatest use of time, but if you happen to really like a few of the Sibelius instruments, and want a more convenient way to use them in a DAW environment, I can't see the harm, unless this is expressly forbidden in the terms of use.
--
Sib 7.1.3, 7.5, Mac 10.9.2
Mac Pro (Late 2013) 32 GB RAM
Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by CB - 06 Apr 04:41PM (edited 13 Jul 05:07PM) Hide picture Thanks Philip !
I actually ask myself this question while I'm arranging a string quartet for the new album of my father (he's singer for children!) I prefer compose and polish mockups in Ableton Live, although I use sometimes Sibelius to print the score for players. In the case of this album, we need samples for the strings and I truly love these sounds alone or in combination with HSO or my VSL strings. This is why I ask myself the question of the use of these samples in a commercial-oriented composition/arrangement/media. There is no question of redistribution of this library under a different format. It is just create music and control each note, each attack, each nuance of Sibelius sounds simply in a different way: inside my sequencer. Moreover I still use Sibelius for all my staff and I have paid my licence.
By the bye, your blog is really rich and helpful when deadlines come to their end Philip !
All the best,
CB Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Andy G - 06 Apr 07:18PM Hide picture The bottom lines are:
1) not, it's definitely not legal to sample
2) you haven't 'purchased the software', you've only purchased a license to use it in accordance with the End User Agreement. (We all read that from cover to cover, didn't we? :) )
3) Any serious sampling would take forever!
4) As has already been said, there are far better sound libraries out there for use with a DAW like Cubase and they're not all expensive. Garritan and Miroslav, for example! I use them in preference to Sibelius's own sounds most of the time.
--
PC: Q6...@3.2GHz,4GB RAM. XP Pro SP2. Terratec/M-Audio cards. Sib 6.2. Macbook Pro: OS 10.6.8. Terratec external card. Sib 7.1.2 Web: www.andrew-gilbert.com Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Andrew Noah Cap - 06 Apr 07:19PM Hide picture As far as I know you cannot "own" a computer-program. You only purchase a license (the permission) to use it. Otherwise you would also "own" the code.
And as far as I know (again) this license includes the permission to use the software for commercial projects.
Otherwise Sibelius would not be used by publishers. And the Garritan (this is what it actually is) is licensed for com-projects.
But, I am curious, why would you want to sample those sounds? IMPO they are too far away for a professional usage.
Miroslav is not so expensive. Or a smaller libs from VSL or EastWest....
Again, I am just curious... ;)
--
Andrew Noah Cap
===============
The most famous unknown composer alive :-)
Working as a composer, engraver and audio-engineer.
Win7 64-Bit, Sibelius v7.1.3 + v7.5, Cubase 7.5, VSL Ensemble Pro 5, LoopB30 on a Master-Computer
Sibelius rewired to Cubase as a host and connected via LoopB30 (each staff) - All soundlibs on a Slave-Computer connected via LAN using Ensemble Pro 5
Soundlibs: too many to name them all. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Andrew Noah Cap - 06 Apr 07:40PM Hide picture an african proverb: "two flies - one shit" :)
Andy G was faster than Andy C... LOL
--
Andrew Noah Cap
===============
The most famous unknown composer alive :-)
Working as a composer, engraver and audio-engineer.
Win7 64-Bit, Sibelius v7.1.3 + v7.5, Cubase 7.5, VSL Ensemble Pro 5, LoopB30 on a Master-Computer
Sibelius rewired to Cubase as a host and connected via LoopB30 (each staff) - All soundlibs on a Slave-Computer connected via LAN using Ensemble Pro 5
Soundlibs: too many to name them all. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by CB - 06 Apr 07:50PM Hide picture Used in a sequencer, played in a sequencer with sort of passion, theses samples could have sounded very very good ! They're are not too far away for a pro usage.
But it doesn't matter ! Still use VSL and HSO.
Thanks guys ! Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Rob Tuley - 06 Apr 09:23PM (edited 06 Apr 09:28PM) Hide picture > Used in a sequencer, played in a sequencer with sort of passion, theses samples could have sounded very very good !
Each to his own, but I find audio generated from the Sib libraries instantly recognisable by ear as what it they are, and on a scale of 0 to 10 I would rate the results between about 0 and 2. (But I haven't heard anything from Sib 7.5 yet.)
Aside from the legality, your proposal to
1> Enter chromatic scales for each instrument in Sibelius
2> Export audio outside Sibelius
3> Import audio in kontakt
etc
rather misses the point (and seems to imply you don't know much sampling.) What you would ACTUALLY have to do was:
1> play one note at say 10 dynamic levels,
2> repeat for say 10 different settings of each controllers that affect the sound,
3> figure out which of those variations were from "the same" original sample and which were different, and create the mapping data for your chosen sample player.
4> figure out the loop points.
5> figure out how the note-release data samples are selected (it could depend on all of the above, plus the duration of the note)
6> Check out if there are multiple samples for the same note, to avoid a "machine gun" effect on fast repeated notes, and multiple loop points in the samples for long notes to avoid easily audible artefacts, etc ....
... and that's just for ONE note for ONE instrument. Rinse and repeat for every note of every instrument.
It would probably be quicker (but equally illegal) to reverse engineer the sample player and hack the file format!
--
Rob
Sib 4.1, WinXP, 2Gb. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Dave Budde - 06 Apr 07:46PM Hide picture >3) Any serious sampling would take forever!
Unless you happen to have Keymap Pro (which includes Auto Sampler). Unfortunately Apple bought the company that created this in 2012 and it is no longer available to new users. But for those that did buy it, it's fairly easy and painless to create instruments from other sample sets and export that to various sample formats (including Kontakt).
Not commenting on the legality of it, just the technical ease of such.
For those that don't know what I'm talking about...
=FFL7P8a37m4
-- Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Andy G - 06 Apr 08:05PM Hide picture I've been sampling since it started! Yes, I'm that old.... I said 'seriously', and even with pro software, that takes a long time. Now to do 38+GB, well, 'forever' still sums it up!
--
PC: Q6...@3.2GHz,4GB RAM. XP Pro SP2. Terratec/M-Audio cards. Sib 6.2. Macbook Pro: OS 10.6.8. Terratec external card. Sib 7.1.2 Web: www.andrew-gilbert.com Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by Rob Tuley - 06 Apr 09:32PM Hide picture > Not commenting on the legality of it, just the technical
ease of such.
I agree, you can throw together a bunch of samples and get some sort of noise out of a sample player in a few minutes, even without any special tools.
But hey, you can learn to play the piano in a few minutes as well. What's hard about just pressing down keys with your fingers? ;-)
--
Rob
Sib 4.1, WinXP, 2Gb. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sampling Sibelius Sounds
Posted by CB - 07 Apr 08:21AM (edited 13 Jul 05:07PM) Hide picture Hey guys !
Sure, a serious sampling would take time.
However, create very basic kontakt instruments with the sibelius sounds takes so no long time. And playing with these patches in a sequencer would be fine ! But it deosn't matter. I simply asked myself about the legal issues. Now I hqve my answer, it is illegal.
Thanks guys for your posts !
All the best,
CB Back to top Allthreads