Fwd: [Advaita-l] analogy

[V Subrahmanian]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Kaushik Chevendra via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 12:53 PM
Subject: [Advaita-l] analogy
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: Kaushik Chevendra <chevendr...@gmail.com>

Here is a small analogy that had come up in my mind with regards to the
different states of reality-

With respect to us,when we are on land, there appear to be many seas and
oceans. It's evident from the fact that there is a water body in
kanyakumari and another waterbody on the beach of vizag.  Also another
water body located near another country. The sea water appears to be salty
where as the ocean water seems to be fresh. It's only logical to assume
these are different from each other.
Yet, when seen from the standpoint of space, these all waterbodies are just
one. The don't even have any parts or division and all are one huge
waterbody. The duality of it is only visible from the standpoint of land.
In the same way there is duality seen from the vyavaharika view point, but
from the standpoint of paramarthika it's only one.
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[Akilesh Ayyar]

Interesting, but, I think, unhelpful. This suggests that there is a 'point of view' from which everything is one. But in fact there is no point of view (save Ishwara's, maybe). 

Advaita is not about a point of view from which the separate are one single mass, but rather about a going beyond concepts -- and thus going beyond points of view. That's why advaita is not-two and not "oneness." These are not the same thing. Not-two-ness refers to beyond-conceptuality, beyond-dichotomy, beyond therefore, both separation and unity.

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

ᐧ

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:06 PM Akilesh Ayyar <aki...@siftingtothetruth.com> wrote:

Interesting, but, I think, unhelpful. This suggests that there is a 'point of view' from which everything is one. But in fact there is no point of view (save Ishwara's, maybe). 

Advaita is not about a point of view

Quite  contrary to the above observation, we have Shankaracharya aver in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Bhashyam:

 न, सलिलफेनदृष्टान्तेन परिहृतत्वात् मृदादिदृष्टान्तैश्च ; यदा तु परमार्थदृष्ट्या परमात्मतत्त्वात् श्रुत्यनुसारिभिः अन्यत्वेन निरूप्यमाणे नामरूपे मृदादिविकारवत् वस्त्वन्तरे तत्त्वतो न स्तः — सलिलफेनघटादिविकारवदेव, तदा तत् अपेक्ष्य ‘एकमेवाद्वितीयम्’ (छा. उ. ६ । २ । १) ‘नेह नानास्ति किञ्चन’ (बृ. उ. ४ । ४ । १९) इत्यादिपरमार्थदर्शनगोचरत्वं प्रतिपद्यते ; 

The analogies of wave, bubble, surf - non-difference from water, clay - clay products non-difference, etc, when a person, from the Paramartha drishti, from the absolute viewpoint,.....the name-form duality is known to be non-existent,...then one attains to the realization of paramartha darshana, the absolute viewpoint....

In fact the attainment of the absolute viewpoint is what is transcending all views. Then, it is not any viewpoint really. 

regards

subbu  

[Akilesh Ayyar]

"In fact the attainment of the absolute viewpoint is what is transcending all views. Then, it is not any viewpoint really."

This is the point. The absolute viewpoint is not a viewpoint.

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

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[Akilesh Ayyar]

And I should add that the non-difference of clay, water, etc. are references to things that can be seen from the vyavaharika viewpoint. It is not that one needs to go to some other viewpoint to observe these things. As such, they are pointers from ordinary experience to beyond it. It's not that in the absolute viewpoint all the clay items merge into one thing. It is that in ordinary experience, there is a facet of non-difference within that very experience that is relevant to be observed for the seeker.

 

That's not the case with the bodies of water analogy. The unity of those bodies of water, per the analogy, cannot be seen from the ordinary viewpoint.

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:48 PM Akilesh Ayyar <aki...@siftingtothetruth.com> wrote:

And I should add that the non-difference of clay, water, etc. are references to things that can be seen from the vyavaharika viewpoint. It is not that one needs to go to some other viewpoint to observe these things. As such, they are pointers from ordinary experience to beyond it. It's not that in the absolute viewpoint all the clay items merge into one thing. It is that in ordinary experience, there is a facet of non-difference within that very experience that is relevant to be observed for the seeker.

 

That's not the case with the bodies of water analogy. The unity of those bodies of water, per the analogy, cannot be seen from the ordinary viewpoint.

In fact the unity of all of creation also cannot be seen from the ordinary viewpoint. Hence alone an analogy is given to help appreciate the absolute viewpoint. It is only because it is possible to appreciate the absolute viewpoint even in the world, it is possible to experience the Advaitic absolute even when one is alive. Hence alone the Upanishad provides so many analogies and so does Shankara, following them. 

regards

subbu   

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

ᐧ

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:51 AM V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:06 PM Akilesh Ayyar <aki...@siftingtothetruth.com> wrote:

Interesting, but, I think, unhelpful. This suggests that there is a 'point of view' from which everything is one. But in fact there is no point of view (save Ishwara's, maybe). 

Advaita is not about a point of view

Quite  contrary to the above observation, we have Shankaracharya aver in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Bhashyam:

 न, सलिलफेनदृष्टान्तेन परिहृतत्वात् मृदादिदृष्टान्तैश्च ; यदा तु परमार्थदृष्ट्या परमात्मतत्त्वात् श्रुत्यनुसारिभिः अन्यत्वेन निरूप्यमाणे नामरूपे मृदादिविकारवत् वस्त्वन्तरे तत्त्वतो न स्तः — सलिलफेनघटादिविकारवदेव, तदा तत् अपेक्ष्य ‘एकमेवाद्वितीयम्’ (छा. उ. ६ । २ । १) ‘नेह नानास्ति किञ्चन’ (बृ. उ. ४ । ४ । १९) इत्यादिपरमार्थदर्शनगोचरत्वं प्रतिपद्यते ; 

The analogies of wave, bubble, surf - non-difference from water, clay - clay products non-difference, etc, when a person, from the Paramartha drishti, from the absolute viewpoint,.....the name-form duality is known to be non-existent,...then one attains to the realization of paramartha darshana, the absolute viewpoint....

In fact the attainment of the absolute viewpoint is what is transcending all views. Then, it is not any viewpoint really. 

regards

subbu  

from which the separate are one single mass, but rather about a going beyond concepts -- and thus going beyond points of view. That's why advaita is not-two and not "oneness." These are not the same thing. Not-two-ness refers to beyond-conceptuality, beyond-dichotomy, beyond therefore, both separation and unity.

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

ᐧ

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Akileshji,

Etymologically, Advaita is “Not Dvaita” or “not two-ness”. This definition is required to remember what we really are, when we are living in the dvaita world. It is like our being in a movie theater and remembering our home (i.e., not forgetting our home) so that we don’t become direction-less.

My 2 cents,

skb

Sent from my iPhone

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