Is moksha unverifiable or verifiable?

[Kalyan]

Namaste

How can moksha be verified externally and internally? Can it even be verified at all?

External verification - If some X makes a claim that he or she obtained moksha, how can others verify that claim? This means, a completely external person who could be a non-believer or from another religion or from another Darshana should be able to verify the claim of X. Is that possible?

Internal verification - How can X verify his or her own claim to moksha? 

Or is it the case that moksha is a matter of faith?

Side question - If you dream that you got moksha, will you really get moksha? If "No", then what is the guarantee that any self-assessed feeling of having attained moksha is not just one's dream?

Best Regards

[Akilesh Ayyar]

It cannot be verified externally. Especially since moksha is itself a self-destructing concept. Moksha destroys the idea of both ignorance and liberation from ignorance. 

Internal verification is possible, but this can never be explained to anyone else.

If you wish to know the difference between a dream of getting moksha and the real thing, you must inquire, as Ramana Maharishi insists, into who it is that is asking.

Akilesh Ayyar

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[Kalyan]

How could we know that internal verification is possible if it cannot be explained to anyone else? The only possibility is if Sruti mentions this. But assuming we take an over all view, there would be disagreements on the interpretations of Sruti statements too. 

Best Regards

[Akilesh Ayyar]

Now you are simply falling into skepticism. Of course, everything can be doubted. You had better hope that God saves you in that case.

Akilesh Ayyar

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[Kalyan]

Well, if Bhagavan thinks I deserve to be saved, He will save me. Else, He will not. 

I am not sure, if my hoping will make any difference. 

Best Regards

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Kalyan ji.

Pertinent questions.

In my understanding, mOksha is not externally verifiable. More so, because there is no proof for existence of some other x.

Regarding internal verification, it does not need any tool to get verified. Since mOksha is swaprakAsha, you don't need any other torch to know it. It is self-revealing. Just as you don't need anything to know your existence and consciousness, similarly mOksha also does not need anything other than it for its revelation. Therefore, the objection regarding dream-analogy is not applicable.

Regards.

Sudhanshu Shekhar.

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Kalyan JI,

SiddhAntic position is that the Guru (who himself is a Realized One) will know when the disciple has reached the Goal. This is clear from Kenopanishad ; Introduction to and Bhashya on mantra 2-1 as well as Chadogya; Ch 6 Uddhalaka-Shvetaketu discussion, Ch 7 Narada-Sanatkumara discussion, and Ch 8-7 (Brahma teaching Indra and Virochana) .

Regards

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[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste.

Tai Up Bhrugu Valli, discission between VaruNa and Bhrugu is another instance.

Regards

[Vikram Jagannathan]

Namaskaram Kalyan ji,

Taking the liberty to share couple of thoughts:

First and foremost, both bandha and moksha (exist only within the realm of vyavaharika. From the paramarthika standpoint, the Self is nitya-suddha-buddha-mukta-svarupa. Any quest to "attain" moksha or verify its attainment arises solely from the empirical viewpoint and is rendered irrelevant in the ultimate reality.

The crux of Advaita Vedanta is the recognition that the so-called attainment of moksha is akin to realizing the illusory nature of the earlier cognition of a snake on a rope. Just as one discovers the rope to be free of the snake, one realizes that (bandha-moksha) are themselves mithya. Verification, therefore, is confined to the recognition of the mithyatva of bondage and liberation themselves.

Having said so, getting to your questions:

<< How can moksha be verified externally and internally? Can it even be verified at all? >>

Expanding on your original question, we can consider the following points:
Q1: Is moksha or Self-realization achievable? If it isn't, then disciplines like brahma-vidya and moksha-shastra lose their significance.
Q2: If moksha is achievable, how can one recognize that they have attained it? Without such recognition, the achievement of moksha would be indistinguishable from not attaining it—this pertains to "internal verification."
Q3: Assuming internal verification is possible, how can others validate this attainment? Without external verification, any personal experience could be mistakenly or falsely identified as moksha—this relates to "external verification."

Answer to Q1: Whether moksha is attainable largely depends on our current beliefs. If one believes themselves to be a limited, individualized entity (referred to as 'bandha'), then attaining moksha becomes possible. This belief underpins the relevance and effectiveness of brahma-vidya and moksha-shastra.
Regarding Q2 and Q3: These questions are critically important. History has shown that many self-proclaimed gurus have mistakenly equated their extraordinary experiences or the methods to achieve them with moksha-jnana. Without proper indicators for both internal and external verification, individuals risk falling into such misconceptions.

<< Internal verification - How can X verify his or her own claim to moksha? >>

Certainly, an individual can internally confirm their attainment of moksha. A profound realization that bandha is mithya and does not require overcoming serves as evidence of achieving moksha.
Moksha-jnana—the knowledge of liberation—involves recognizing one's true essence as nitya suddha buddha mukta. This realization dissolves the sense of being a limited independent individualized self and eliminates desires, fears, and likes-dislikes related to worldly experiences. Such profound changes are distinctly identifiable and honestly recognizable within oneself. Such a person is a tattva-darshi jnani sthitha-prajna jivanmukta.

<< External verification - If some X makes a claim that he or she obtained moksha, how can others verify that claim? This means, a completely external person who could be a non-believer or from another religion or from another Darshana should be able to verify the claim of X. Is that possible? >>

Yes, it is possible to externally verify someone's claim of having attained moksha. However, the degree to which this verification can be achieved largely depends on the external person's understanding and knowledge of moksha. Fundamentally for an individual to verify an external claim, they must first possess the requisite knowledge about what is being verified. For instance, without understanding Malayalam, one cannot accurately assess the validity of a translation from English to Malayalam. However, a tattva-darshi jnani sthitha-prajna jivanmukta guru possesses the deep insight necessary to accurately identify and verify a student's internal realization of moksha. This underscores the critical importance of tattva-darshi jnani jivanmukta guru; guru-shishya parampara; proximity / satsangam / 'upanishad' or approach to a guru; and Bhagavan's reference to such a guru in SBG-4.34.

Question: How can an ordinary person, who has not yet realized the Self, verify another person's claim of attaining moksha?
Response: While it may not be possible to verify moksha claims with absolute certainty, there are indicators that can suggest such an attainment to a certain extent. Individuals can look for manifestations of qualities associated with a stitha-prajna, tattva-darshi, jnani as described in the Upanishads, SBG, and authoritative teachings of various sampradhaya acharyas. For instance, the insightful talk by Pujya Swami Ramanacharana Tirtha on 'Jivanmukta Lakshanam' offers valuable perspectives on identifying the signs of moksha - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbKslvTvEng.

Question: If the internal verification of moksha relies on an external guru's verification, doesn't this create an infinite regress? That is, each guru's claim would then require verification by a preceding guru, potentially leading to a never-ending chain where everyone fails to recognize true moksha attainment.
Response: This concern is addressed within traditional sampradhayams through established foundational principles. In all sampradhayams, the initial guru is revered as Bhagavan or Ishvara, which establishes a direct and authoritative source of verification. Furthermore, the scriptures serve as an independent and definitive source of pramana, providing clear guidelines and indicators for both the methods to attain moksha and the signs that signify its attainment. Insights from Pujya Swami Chinmayananda on the identity and role of a guru further clarify this point - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q9wRhtt7As

<< Or is it the case that moksha is a matter of faith? >>

No, moksha in Advaita Vedanta is not solely a matter of faith. While faith, or shraddha, is indeed a crucial prerequisite for a seeker, as part of the sadhana-chatushtaya, it must be complemented by logical reflection and direct, immediate experience. Without this combination, faith risks remaining mere blind belief. Advaita sampradhayam stands out among various religious traditions because it offers a framework where moksha can be credibly verified and demonstrated within one's lifetime through the concept of jivanmukti. This approach contrasts with other systems that may rely more heavily on faith alone or consider moksha as an attainment reserved for the afterlife. Therefore, in Advaita, moksha is accessible through a balanced integration of faith, reason, and personal experience, ensuring that it is both believable and achievable in the present life. For further insights, refer to "Need for a Guru and Duty of a Guru" by Pujya Swami Chinmayananda - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNN0TdWVD5c

<< Side question - If you dream that you got moksha, will you really get moksha? If "No", then what is the guarantee that any self-assessed feeling of having attained moksha is not just one's dream? >>

No, dreaming of attaining moksha does not equate to actually achieving moksha. A self-assessed feeling of moksha may not necessarily reflect true moksha-jnana. This is precisely the trap mentioned earlier—mistaking any profound experience for genuine moksha. Moksha is not just any experience but specifically the genesis of 'brahmakara vritti'. Only this definitive vritti constitutes moksha. To distinguish true moksha-jnana from mere experiences or dreams, it is essential to rely on internal and external identification based on indicators provided by a guru or the scriptures. These indicators help assuage doubts and provide a framework for recognizing genuine liberation. 

However, it is important to acknowledge that this reliance is a provisional concession given our current state of ignorance and limited understanding. Ultimately, with Brahma-jnana or moksha-jnana, there remains no doubt whatsoever. The clarity and radiance of this knowledge are unmistakable, akin to the brilliance of countless suns or the sharp clarity of an amla held in one's palm. This profound certainty distinguishes true moksha from mere dreams or transient experiences.

<< How could we know that internal verification is possible if it cannot be explained to anyone else? The only possibility is if Sruti mentions this. But assuming we take an over all view, there would be disagreements on the interpretations of Sruti statements too.  >>

Your concern is valid only if the Self/Atman/Brahman is perceived as distinct—whether as sajatiya, vijatiya, or svagata—from oneself. In reality, the Self is not an external or separate or distinct unknown entity, even though it cannot be fully articulated to others. The true essence of "I," "you," and "oneself" is intrinsically the Self/Atman/Brahman. Misunderstandings about one's true nature arise from ignorance, leading to varied and sometimes conflicting interpretations of Shruti. Regardless of one's beliefs about their individual identity, the fundamental truth about the nature of "I" remains the same & immutable. Internal verification is achievable because the moksha-siddhanta directs attention solely to realizing the true nature of "who I am." This allows an individual to definitively realize their own Self. Swami Sankaracharya's Bhashya on the Brahmasutra Chatushtri drives home this point, highlighting that true knowledge of the Self transcends mere intellectual understanding and is experientially confirmed in this life itself.

<< Well, if Bhagavan thinks I deserve to be saved, He will save me. Else, He will not. I am not sure, if my hoping will make any difference. >>

Indeed, sharanagati and the grace of Ishvara/Bhagavan are of utmost and absolute importance in the attainment of moksha in Advaita siddhanta. According to the teachings of Swami Sankaracharya, any amount of personal effort is completely incapable of achieving moksha. In the complete absence of any personal endeavor, moksha can only be attained through total and unwavering surrender from the seeker combined with the complete grace of Ishvara. In the Advaita Vedanta tradition, even the slightest imperfection in surrender—such as 99.9999% sharanagati—renders moksha unattainable. This underscores the necessity of 100% surrender, which does not entertain any conditional thoughts like, "Either He will save me, or He will not." The emergence of Brahmakara vritti is entirely dependent on Ishvara's grace responding to the individual's full & absolute surrender. Swami Sankaracharya emphasizes that without this absolute surrender Bhgavan / guru and divine grace, liberation remains impossible

prostrations,

Vikram

[Raghav Kumar]

Namaste

Followers of other belief systems don't have any concept of mokSha. Their goal is a post-mortem attainment of a pleasurable condition. So, for them, if one is still alive, one has not reached their final destination. Death is a pre-requisite for their version of the ultimate goal. 

Also, the higher degrees of antaHkaraNa shuddhi (with let us say, sufficient shravaNam mananaM etc) would be indistinguishable from Atma-jnAnam. As Chandramouli ji said, Guru's review is important as in Kena, Taittiriya etc., as also peer review. 

Many followers of Jaggi, Sri M. etc naively say they are " jIvanmuktas" ( and even if they themselves claim as much),  peer review (by shiShTas) easily puts paid to such hyperbolic claims.

Om

Raghav

Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer

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[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

Followers of other belief systems don't have any concept of mokSha. Their goal is a post-mortem attainment of a pleasurable condition. So, for them, if one is still alive, one has not reached their final destination. Death is a pre-requisite for their version of the ultimate goal. 

 

Ø     Why go to other belief systems?? Within Advaita sampradaya there are some who say whatever you gain when you are living is gauNa and real thing happens ONLY after shedding your mortal coil.  According to them, jnAni even after attaining paramArtha jnAna would carry with him avidyAlesha becomes ONLY Jeevan mukta (liberated while being embodied and living) it is gaUNa mukti and when that avidyAlesha too is completely destroyed he gives up his shareera and becomes videha mukta (mukhya mukti).  In this way, whatever he achieved while living in the body is something inferior to whatever he gets after living the body. 

 

Also, the higher degrees of antaHkaraNa shuddhi (with let us say, sufficient shravaNam mananaM etc) would be indistinguishable from Atma-jnAnam.

 

Ø     Don’t you people equating antaHkaraNa is anAtma and avidyA prasUta??  How an avidyA prasUta antaHkaraNa can get the higher degree of purity which is indistinguishable from parishuddha Atma jnAna!!??  Anyway if it is your stand I am with you prabhuji 😊  In the sAdhana mArga there is no other karaNa other than AntaHkaraNa to realize this truth. 

 

Many followers of Jaggi, Sri M. etc naively say they are " jIvanmuktas" ( and even if they themselves claim as much),  peer review (by shiShTas) easily puts paid to such hyperbolic claims.

 

Ø     Who is this Sri M ?? 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

[Kalyan]

Namaste

Let me profusely thank all the learned members who have responded here.

As it is a bit busy week for me with work, I will try to get back to you as early as possible.

Best Regards

Kalyan

[Kalyan]

Namaste Sri Sudhanshu-ji

Thank you for stating that moksha is externally unverfiable. 

As regarding internal verification- If waking state consciousness, which is self-revealing can still admit dream analogies, why can't waking state moksha? Meaning, despite the non-doubting of self-existence in the waking state, we can still apply the dream analogy to it, like in DSV, what prevents the same for waking state moksha? To put it slightly differently - When I dream, I don't doubt my own existence. Yet, I am in a dream. 

Best Regards

Kalyan

On Sunday, 26 January 2025 at 3:31:38 pm UTC+5:30 sudhans...@gmail.com wrote:

[Kalyan]

Namaste Sri Chandramouli-ji

I am not doubting the siddhAntic position. But when I say external verification of moksha, I speak of verification by a third-party observer or average observer. An already self-realized Guru and Bhagavan/Ishwara are not included.

Best Regards

Kalyan

[Kalyan]

Namaste Vikram-ji

I will respond to you shortly as your message is bigger. :)

Best Regards

Kalyan

[Kalyan]

Namaste Sri Raghav-ji

Perhaps you meant other belief systems don't have the concept of Jeevan Mukti, as dvaita and v-advaita do have the concept of moksha.

Best Regards

Kalyan

[Akilesh Ayyar]

Because moksha is not just another state. There is a fundamental misunderstanding of what moksha is. 

Akilesh Ayyar

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[Kalyan]

Bhaskarji, Namaste

Your comments are as usual insightful and incisive. 😀

Best Regards

[Aravinda Rao]

Namaskars, 

" Within Advaita sampradaya there are some who say whatever you gain when you are living is gauNa and real thing happens ONLY after shedding your mortal coil."

Is there any text which says this, or is it the teaching of some teachers? Mukti is mukti either with body (jeevan) or without (videha=devoid of) body. 

Regarding the question whether it is verifiable or unverifiable, we may take an example. There is a tall tree on top of which there is a nest and there is a diamond in it. Only a person who has the skill and strength to climb can verify or get it. Moksha is similar to that. Vairagya and knowledge are the two wings of the bird (sadhaka) which enable him to fly and reach the top of the mansion named mukti (Vivekachudamani, verse 375). Many saints have achieved mukti and there is no reason for us to question it.

Aravinda rao

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[Kalyan]

Namaste Aravinda Rao gaaru

I am not questioning moksha. My question is specific to verification. It is like this - I don't doubt the existence of Bombay. I am travelling in a train/bus/car/plane etc. How will I know that I reached Bombay? Someone else is traveling in a train etc. How will I know whether that person reached Bombay?

Best Regards

[Aurobind Padiyath]

Namaste,

If you have a dental pain (samsara) and went to a doctor(Guru) for relief and the medicine(sastra) given to you have to be taken with faith and trust (sradha and bhakti). After that who will know and verify that you have been freed (mukti) of the pain? Not even the doctor (Guru) can verify. 

Similar is the case.

Aurobind 

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[Aravinda Rao]

Namaste Kalyan ji,

Several books have described the characteristics of a jnani. We can see the person's behavior and reasonably know to what degree he has become free, mukta. 

Regarding knowing about oneself, as long as I keep asking, 'Have I reached', 'have I reached', the 'I' has not disappeared. It is anxiously waiting for some grand moment. When the 'I' thins down slowly, we will not even question, 'Have I reached/'. The person sees everything as Brahman. I don't think he says, 'I am brahman', thought the statement is there. The statement is more for anusandhan, walking the talk and become It. It is for others to see and comment on us. 

Regards, 

Aravinda rao

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[Dhanjibhai Prajapati]

Sir thanks you have explained nicely 

Sent from our I Phone

Dhanjibhai & Nirmalaben

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On Jan 31, 2025, at 3:12 AM, Aravinda Rao <karav...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

PraNAms

I am reminded of Swami Paramarthanandaji's statement. As one progresses towards understanding the truth, the FIR (F=Frequency of perturbation from the truth, I=intensity  of perturbation, R=Recovery time from perturbation) decreases. 

Hari Om!

Sada

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[Kalyan]

Namaste Acharya Sadanandaji

Nice statement. Thank you for sharing.

Best Regards

[aham brahmaasmi]

Here is Swami Sarvapriyanandaji's reply to the question in this thread. 

And He too, has quoted Pujya Swami Paramarthanandaji's quote. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FztfSDbLQQg   

hariH Om ! 

sakshi

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