About Saguna Brahman / Ishwara

[V Subrahmanian]

Sankalpa is undoubtedly in the saguna brahman mode. NB is completely unconnected with creation, etc. The best demonstration is in the Mandukya Upanishad. The first six mantras are about the world. The 6th mantra: एष सर्वेश्वर एष सर्वज्ञ एषोऽन्तर्याम्येष योनिः सर्वस्य प्रभवाप्ययौ हि भूतानाम् ॥ ६ ॥ With this mantra, the cause of creation, i.e., the māyaśabalita Brahman, SB, the cause of creation and the creation itself in two stages, the sukshma Hiranyagarbha state and the sthula virAT state, are completely covered. This is called bīja and ankura. The next mantra 7 is:

नान्तःप्रज्ञं नबहिःप्रज्ञं नोभयतःप्रज्ञं नप्रज्ञानघनं नप्रज्ञं नाप्रज्ञम् । अदृश्यमव्यवहार्यमग्राह्यमलक्षणमचिन्त्यमव्यपदेश्यमेकात्मप्रत्ययसारं प्रपञ्चोपशमं शान्तं शिवमद्वैतं चतुर्थं मन्यन्ते स आत्मा स विज्ञेयः ॥ ७ ॥

This mantra denies/negates the whole of the creation, both in its causal and effect forms (everything covered by the previous six mantras) and presents NB as the one to be realized for mukti. In this bhashya Shankara gives the rajju sarpa analogy to say that the entire creation, including the Ishwara, as adhyasta on the NB:

तस्यापरमार्थरूपमविद्याकृतं रज्जुसर्पादिसममुक्तं पादत्रयलक्षणं बीजाङ्कुरस्थानीयम् । (up to this is the entire creation including Ishwara SB) From now onwards, that is the actual topic of the 7th mantra is: अथेदानीमबीजात्मकं परमार्थस्वरूपं रज्जुस्थानीयं is shown as the adhishthanam. This exactly negates the SB: नप्रज्ञमिति युगपत्सर्वविषयज्ञातृत्वप्रतिषेधः | This mantra after having negated the cause of creation, Ishwara, and the effect, the world, presents Brahman as प्रपञ्चोपशमं शान्तं शिवमद्वैतं This shuddha svarupam is to be realized as oneself for mukti.

Elsewhere too Shankara has specified this SB in clear terms: for example in the ubhayalingadhikranam. The sutra tadadheenatvaat arthavat is also a place where Shankara says, without that Shakti, the Brahman of Vedanta cannot do anything. This shakti is maayaa which has to be there for Brahman to create. In other words, this shakti + NB is Ishwara. If this shakti is denied, there is no SB at all.

[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2025 at 5:56 PM Kaushik Chevendra <chevendr...@gmail.com> wrote:

 “ This shakti is maayaa which has to be there for Brahman to create. In other words, this shakti + NB is Ishwara. If this shakti is denied, there is no SB at all.” 

From a bakthi perspective I think this is why we also do Pooja of Shakthi Sametha isvara. Lakshmi Narayana, Radha Krishna, Sita Rama, Parvati Parameshwara, Rukmini Krishna etc.

Yes, exactly.  That shakti is represented as the consort of the male Ishwra rupa. 

regards

subbu 

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[Bhaskar YR]

From a bakthi perspective I think this is why we also do Pooja of Shakthi Sametha isvara. Lakshmi Narayana, Radha Krishna, Sita Rama, Parvati Parameshwara, Rukmini Krishna etc.

praNAms
Hare Krishna

And from vedAnta drushti also the bhAshyakAra clarifies that the power (shakti) is identical with the cause and the effect is identical with the power kAraNasyAtmabhUtA shaktiH, shakteshchAtmabhUtaM kAryaM. In the shvetaashwatara it is said : he has no body, no senses. There is none equal to or greater than him. His supreme power is heard to be variously described and belonging to HIS VERY NATURE IS HIS KNOWLEDGE STRENGTH AND ACT. Here consciousness has been described as without body, without indriya but it is his nature that he is jnAna, bala and kriya (svAbhAviki jnAnabala kriya cha).

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!
bhaskar

BHASKAR YR
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" This shakti is maayaa which has to be there for Brahman to create. In other words, this shakti + NB is Ishwara. If this shakti is denied, there is no SB at all."

From a bakthi perspective I think this is why we also do Pooja of Shakthi Sametha isvara. Lakshmi Narayana, Radha Krishna, Sita Rama, Parvati Parameshwara, Rukmini Krishna etc.

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[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms
Hare Krishna

//quote //

The socalled consciousness and power of the divine being ernally identical with the Being and it is only relativity that makes vedAntins speak of God's knowing or being the potential cause of an effect, just as it is in empirical life when we say fire burns the faggot, the river flows or the sun shines upon the snake when it creeps out of the anthill. It is clear that the absolutish of Advaita is in no way affected by these conventional ways of thinking or speaking.
//unquote//

Sri SSS in one of his English works.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

[Rajhoou Upreti]

Indro mayabhihi purupiyate, Form is assumed through maya.🙏🙏

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[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

indro mAyAbhiH pururUpaa eyate, just wondering what happens to this Rig veda mantra if we replace mAyA with avidyA (as per some both are paryAya words)😊 By the way here Indra is parameshwara / parabrahman the parama kAraNa who is identical with creation.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

Indro mayabhihi purupiyate, Form is assumed through maya.🙏🙏

[Rajhoou Upreti]

Vidya maya is an upadhi of Ishvara. In Kena Vakya Bhasya, we find a similar statement, where the yaksha assumes the form because of  "compassion "  for the devas. 🙏🙏

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 4:33 PM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

indro mAyAbhiH pururUpaa eyate, just wondering what happens to this Rig veda mantra if we replace mAyA with avidyA (as per some both are paryAya words)😊 By the way here Indra is parameshwara / parabrahman the parama kAraNa who is identical with creation.

The mantra is part of a bigger passage in Brihadaranyaka:

इदं वै तन्मधु दध्यङ्ङाथर्वणोऽश्विभ्यामुवाच । तदेतदृषिः पश्यन्नवोचत् । रूपं रूपं प्रतिरूपो बभूव तदस्य रूपं प्रतिचक्षणाय । इन्द्रो मायाभिः पुरुरूप ईयते युक्ता ह्यस्य हरयः शता दशेति । अयं वै हरयोऽयं वै दश च सहस्राणि बहूनि चानन्तानि च तदेतद्ब्रह्मापूर्वमनपरमनन्तरमबाह्यमयमात्मा ब्रह्म सर्वानुभूरित्यनुशासनम् ॥ १९ ॥   

For this, Shankara says: इन्द्रः परमेश्वरः मायाभिः प्रज्ञाभिः नामरूपभूतकृतमिथ्याभिमानैर्वा न तु परमार्थतः, पुरुरूपः बहुरूपः, ईयते..  Here māyā means 'perceptions/jnana/prateeti'. He gives an alternative meaning: mithyAbhimAna owing to names and forms.  Thus, the meaning 'avidya' is also happily admissible for Shankara. 

regards

subbu

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

Indro mayabhihi purupiyate, Form is assumed through maya.🙏🙏

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[Rajhoou Upreti]

yes ,rigveda too . 🙏

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[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

The mantra is part of a bigger passage in Brihadaranyaka:

इदं वै तन्मधु दध्यङ्ङाथर्वणोऽश्विभ्यामुवाच । तदेतदृषिः पश्यन्नवोचत् । रूपं रूपं प्रतिरूपो बभूव तदस्य रूपं प्रतिचक्षणाय । इन्द्रो मायाभिः पुरुरूप ईयते युक्ता ह्यस्य हरयः शता दशेति । अयं वै हरयोऽयं वै दश च सहस्राणि बहूनि चानन्तानि च तदेतद्ब्रह्मापूर्वमनपरमनन्तरमबाह्यमयमात्मा ब्रह्म सर्वानुभूरित्यनुशासनम् ॥ १९ ॥   

For this, Shankara says: इन्द्रः परमेश्वरः मायाभिः प्रज्ञाभिः नामरूपभूतकृतमिथ्याभिमानैर्वा न तु परमार्थतः, पुरुरूपः बहुरूपः, ईयते..  Here māyā means 'perceptions/jnana/prateeti'. He gives an alternative meaning: mithyAbhimAna owing to names and forms.  Thus, the meaning 'avidya' is also happily admissible for Shankara. 

 

Ø     One more reference we can find in Katha shruti as well.  Here in this mantra it is agni not indra, the mantra starts agniyathaiko bhuvanaM pratishtO rUpaM rUpam pratirUpO babhUva…this mantra too like bruhad and rig. mantra talking about ekamevAdviteeya Chaitanya which is there in all creatures and itself become rUpaM and rUpam.  It does not mean a father become father after getting children coz. here father is different from his kids ( in chAndOgya up. Somewhere bhAshyakAra gives this example) it is like ajayamAno bahudhA vijAyate.  And these nAma rUpa is required and it has to be there to know brahman in nirupAdhika prajnAna ghana.  Same bruhad bhAshya clarifies this : yadihi nAmarUpena vyAkreeyate tadAsya AtmanO nirupAdhikaM rUpaM prajnAnaghanAkhyaM na pratikhyAyeta.  So mithyAbhimAna bhAshya word convoluted here to promote the svapaksha statements which is quite unnecessary in the context of this mantra wherever it is appearing.  It is brahman who is pratirupa for each and every rUpa.  satyaM chAnrutaMcha satyamabhavat yadidaM kiMcha.  Anyway it is not strange for me to see these types of fabricated versions of interpretations from the promoters of brahmAshrita avidyA and advocators of unanimity between maya and avidyA 😊