Illusory nature of the waking and dream states

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Vinodh

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Oct 16, 2021, 7:22:23 AM10/16/21
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Namaskarams,

In Gaudapadacharya's karika on the Mandukyopanishad, he establishes the falsehood (or illusory nature) of both the waking and dream states through reasoning alone (i.e., without relying on Sruti) in the Vaitathya Prakarana (Vaitathya = falsehood) in verses 4-6. 

The reasoning goes as follows:
1. Things in a dream are unreal on account of them being confined within oneself. 
2. Dream and waking states are similar on account of both of them having object perception, i.e., there is a seer and a seen (a subject-object relationship).
3. That which is non-existent in the beginning and in the end is necessarily non-existent in the middle. 
Therefore, just like all objects in a dream (including the dream mind-body-senses etc.), which did not exist just before falling asleep or just after waking up, and therefore are non-existent during the dream as well, all objects in a waking state (including the waking mind-body-senses etc.), which did not exist just before waking up or just after falling asleep, are also non-existent during the waking state as well. 

The above is the only conclusive explanation I have come across that establishes the illusory nature of both the waking and dream states. 

When a superimposition (adhyaasa) occurs between the atma and the illusory dream/waking mind-body, all interactions (vyavahara) in these states are wrongly imagined to be associated with the atma. The atma, being pure consciousness, is just a substratum on which the above dream/waking illusions appear and are witnessed, but it is itself untouched by these illusions like the rope is untouched by an illusion of a snake appearing above it. 

Om tat sat 🙏

sunil bhattacharjya

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Oct 16, 2021, 9:41:00 AM10/16/21
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Namaskar Vinodhji,      
My humble take is that we should not adopt a very rigid definition of Shruti so as to exclude the Ramayanam samam Vedam,  which has the Vashishtha Maharamayanam and the Karshna Vedam Mahabharatam, which has the Sarvashastramayee Bhagavad Gita, which was delivered by the Paripurna Brahman Lord Krishna himself.
My 2 cents
Sunil KB

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Vinodh

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Oct 16, 2021, 12:15:35 PM10/16/21
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Namaskaram Sri Sunilji,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Indeed, "agama" or the word of a reliable person is a pramana, i.e., one of the right means of knowledge. While the vedas are typically considered part of agama, there is no reason to exclude the words of any other jnani that have been captured in the various texts that we have now. 

What is interesting about Gaudapadacharya's argument is that he establishes the unreality of duality through *pure reasoning alone*, that is, **without relying on any scriptural authority**. This remark has been made by Shankara Bhagavadpada in his Bhashya of the Gaudapada-Karika in the Vaitathya Prakarana. 

The main reasoning used to establish the illusory nature of dream and waking states is "adau ante ca yannaasti vartamaane ca tat tathaa" or "what does not exist in the beginning or in the end does not exist in the middle". 

Objects in a dream (including the dream mind-body-senses etc.) did not exist just before falling asleep or just after waking up from sleep, and therefore are non-existent during the dream as well. Similarly all objects in a waking state (including the waking mind-body-senses etc.) do not exist just before waking up from sleep or just after falling asleep (from the point of view of the person sleeping). Therefore, by the same logic the objects in the waking state are also non-existent just like the objects in a dream. 

This is illustrated by a story of Janaka and Ashtavakra. Janaka once goes to sleep and imagines himself being attacked and exiled from his own kingdom. After a lot of suffering without food and water, he finally comes across some food to eat. However, just as he is about to eat it a dog snatches it away from him, leaving him in a lot of misery. Then he suddenly wakes up and finds himself in his palace with all the comforts he is used to and the misery of the dream was no longer there. He then went about asking everyone "Is this real or is that real?" His ministers unable to answer this puzzling question, Ashtavakra finally answers it. He asks Janaka if all the comforts he is experiencing now was there, that is, whether all this was there in his dream. He says no. He then askes Janaka if all the suffering in the dream is here now. He says now. Then he asks him if he was there. He says yes. He asks him if he is here now. He says yes. Then Asktavakra says that that is the answer to his question. Neither that or this, meaning the dream or the waking state, is real. He, that is, the witness to both of these states, is alone is real. 

Om tat sat 🙏



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Kuntimaddi Sadananda

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Oct 17, 2021, 9:28:58 AM10/17/21
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PraNAms

Just some clarification.

Use of unreal word instead of mithyaa sometimes causes confusion.

sat asat vilakShaNam - is the definition. Hence any expericeable entity cannot be unreal - Goudapada says experiencability, transactability, Utility are not the criteria for reality - only nityatvam or eternity is the criterion. trikaala abhaditam satyam. 

Dream is not a dream for the dreamer while he is in the dream.  

Just my 2c.

Hari Om!
Sadananda




On Saturday, October 16, 2021, 09:49:56 PM EDT, Vinodh via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:


Namaskaram Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji,

The first objection you raise is no problem at all. As explained by
Gaudapadacharya in the 9th kaarika of the Vaitathya prakarana and expanded
on by Shankaracharya in his bhashya, even in the dream state, one may
imagine or dream things that are later seen to be imagined within the
dream, while there other things that are seen externally (within the dream)
that are assumed to be relatively real, even though both of these things
are inside the dream. Because one imagines something that one does not see
externally through the senses, one assigns falsehood to the imagination and
reality to what is seen externally through the senses (this applies whether
we are talking about dream mind-body-senses or the waking
mind-body-senses). Whatever is inferred through empiricism through the
senses, one is prone to claim to be true, and whatever is not inferred
through empiricism, one is prone to claim to be false. These two, the
internal perception (anta-chitta) and the external perception
(bahih-chitta), happen both in the dream and the waking states.

There are several more objections like the one you raise that are addressed
by the kaarikas and the bhashya, for example:
- Reality of objects in the waking state is due to their utility of them.
For example, water quenches the thirst, etc. However, dream objects cannot
quench one's thirst in the waking state.
- If both states are imagined and false, who is the one seeing them and
what is the basis for smriti and jnaana?
- Imaginations are confined to the time duration when they are imagined,
however, objects seen externally are defined by two points of time (their
time of creation and time of destruction, which is independent of the
imagination).
All these are sufficiently addressed through pure reasoning alone by
Gaudapadacharya and Shankaracharya.

The second objection you raise is not valid. The only thing Sruti is needed
for is tell us the Truth. To establish the falsehood of dvaita, it is not
required. As already mentioned, it is said so by Shankara Bhagapada himself
in his bhashya of the Vaitathya Prakarana of Gaudapachaya's Karikas on the
Mandukyopanishdad. He says that, even though it is said in the previous
prakarana (Agama Prakarana) on the basis of the sruti (Mandukya Upanishad)
that dvaita is unreal, it is now the intention of Gaudapadacharya to
establish this same fact through pure reasoning alone without relying on
scriptural authority. This in fact forms a firm basis for discussions with
people who may not accept the authority of the sruti, like Buddhists, etc.
However, after having rejected the reality of duality through reasoning, to
establish the Truth regarding the Atma, the Sruti is indeed required and
there is no other way other than the Sruti.

Om tat sat 🙏

On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 3:31 AM Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste
>
> But in waking state we can reflect on dream state and say dream objects are
> not real. This explanation of yours in the email is in waking state only,
> But conversely we do not reflect in dream state on waking state and say
> waking objects are not real. The Sruti only can tell us waking objects are
> not real. It is not possible by reasoning alone. If it is possible  by
> reasoning alone there is no need of Sruti Pramana. This is not the way of
> Advaita.
> > _______________________________________________
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> --
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>
> -Venkatesh

Vinodh

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Oct 17, 2021, 11:05:47 AM10/17/21
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Namaskarams Sri Sadananda ji,

Thank you for your clarification. I agree with you on confusion as a result of using the word "unreal" instead of "mithya". 

Please pardon the lack of clarity in my language. 🙏

suresh srinivasamurthy

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Oct 17, 2021, 3:55:48 PM10/17/21
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Namaste Sada-ji,

If truth is defined as trikAla abAdhitam, it makes it dependent on kAla tattva which also ends up as a second entity right?
Appreciate if you could help to clear this doubt.

Namaste,
Suresh
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Subject: [advaitin] Re: [Advaita-l] Illusory nature of the waking and dream states
 
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Kuntimaddi Sadananda

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Oct 17, 2021, 4:29:55 PM10/17/21
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Sureshji - PraNAms

YES indeed. Even the Vedanta teaching also applies for the seeker who thinks he is bound by space and time.

 Hence Mandukya talks about deep-sleep state experience too, where there is space and time - yet the seeker is there, sleeping well. 
Hence, even the realization is also in vyavahaara level only. From the paarmaarathika level - na vaak gachhati, no manaH - yato vaacho nivartante apraapya manasaa saH - 

Hence from the absolute point - nothing can be said or need to be said too. Ig is beyond space and time too since all words are within the realm of space and time. There is no word or world in the deep-sleep state too.

Even the visvaruupam is also in the vyavahaara level only. jeeva-jagat-Iswara - divisions are all at vyavahaara level only. At paaramaarthika leval - being anantam - no divisions of any kind also possible, since it is anantam. 

Hence, Tai. Up starts with Brahman definition that which cannot be defined but provides a working definition for a contemplative mind to think and transcend the space-time limitations. It starts as satyam-jnaanam and most importantly anantam. 

Without warning it switches from Brahman to Aatma - since they are not two different - sa aatmaa - tat tvam asi.

Hence these are called lakshana vaakyaas - pointers for a prepared mind to contemplate and in the process RECOGNIZE that which is the very substratum even for the contemplation. That is very discussion of Om in the Mandukya Up. - switching from micro to macro. 

Hari Om!

Sadananda






Kuntimaddi Sadananda

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Oct 17, 2021, 4:31:21 PM10/17/21
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I mean 
Hence Mandukya talks about deep-sleep state experience too, where there is NO space and time - yet the seeker is there, sleeping well.



sreenivasa murthy

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Oct 17, 2021, 9:36:09 PM10/17/21
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Dear Sri Sadananda,
Your statement "I mean Hence Mandukya talks about deep-sleep state experience too, where there is NO space and time - yet the seeker is there, sleeping well." is a confused one and confusing one.

I request you to substantiate your statement with Sri Shankara's commentary.
Otherwise it will be extremely difficult to accept your statement as a fact because the the statement might have been made from a faulty understanding.

With respectful namaskars,
Sreenivasa Murthy

On Sunday, 17 October, 2021, 09:31:37 pm GMT+1, Kuntimaddi Sadananda via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:


I mean Hence Mandukya talks about deep-sleep state experience too, where there is NO space and time - yet the seeker is there, sleeping well.



    On Sunday, October 17, 2021, 04:29:57 PM EDT, 'Kuntimaddi Sadananda' via advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com> wrote: 

 
Sureshji -PraNAms
YESindeed. Even the Vedanta teaching also applies for the seeker who thinks he isbound by space and time.
 Hence Mandukya talks about deep-sleep state experiencetoo, where there is space and time - yet the seeker is there, sleeping well. Hence, even the realization is also in vyavahaara level only. From the paarmaarathika level- na vaak gachhati, no manaH - yato vaacho nivartante apraapya manasaa saH - 

Hence from the absolute point - nothing can be said or need to be said too. Ig is beyond space and time too since all words are within the realm of space and time. There is no word or world in the deep-sleep state too.
Even the visvaruupam is also in the vyavahaara level only. jeeva-jagat-Iswara - divisions are all at vyavahaara level only. At paaramaarthika leval - being anantam - no divisions of any kind also possible, since it is anantam. 

Hence, Tai. Up starts with Brahman definition that which cannot be defined butprovides a working definition for a contemplative mind to think and transcend the space-timelimitations. It starts as satyam-jnaanam and most importantly anantam. 

Withoutwarning it switches from Brahman to Aatma - since they are not two different -sa aatmaa - tat tvam asi.

Hencethese are called lakshana vaakyaas - pointers for a prepared mind tocontemplate and in the process RECOGNIZE that which is the very substratum evenfor the contemplation. That is very discussion of Om in the Mandukya Up. -switching from micro to macro. 


Hari Om!

Sadananda





    On Sunday, October 17, 2021, 04:02:19 PM EDT, suresh srinivasamurthy <sure...@hotmail.com> wrote: 

Namaste Sada-ji,
If truth is defined as trikAla abAdhitam, it makes it dependent on kAla tattva which also ends up as a second entity right?Appreciate if you could help to clear this doubt.
Namaste,
Suresh
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