Enlightenment
Harish L B
- Anyone here who can kindly confirm that you are enlightened and is a jivanmukta? Or you think you are almost there? For how long have you been enlightened?
- Is there a better way for me to ask the above question more politely? Or do you advise such a question should never be asked?
- Do you know someone in the current/contemporary times whom you think is enlightened and is a jivanmukta? Why do you think so?
Sincere Namaskarams,
Harish
Sudhanshu Shekhar
Anyone here who can kindly confirm that you are enlightened and is a jivanmukta? Or you think you are almost there? For how long have you been enlightened?
Is there a better way for me to ask the above question more politely? Or do you advise such a question should never be asked?
Do you know someone in the current/contemporary times whom you think is enlightened and is a jivanmukta? Why do you think so?
Bhaskar YR
Hare Krishna
- Anyone here who can kindly confirm that you are enlightened and is a jivanmukta?
Or you think you are almost there?
For how long have you been enlightened?
- Is there a better way for me to ask the above question more politely? Or do you advise such a question should never be asked?
- Do you know someone in the current/contemporary times whom you think is enlightened and is a jivanmukta? Why do you think so?
> I am sorry for your genuine doubts I am giving hilarious answers...but fact remains that the answers what we are going to get should help us in some way or the other & I don’t think your queries and respective answers from various members would help you to progress in sAdhana mArga.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
aham brahmaasmi
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Harish L B
Blunt answers and hilarious responses, both of them are helping me to get clarity.
I was not exactly looking to understand about any names or individuals in this group (or outside the group) who are jivanmukta. However, i was not able to phrase my questions in a different way, which could invoke an answer from you that can provide me with a satisfying clarity of thought.
Thanks again. I also noted the inference of Shringeri Jagadgurus being jivanmukta. Thank you Sakshi ji.
I will also wait for any other responses.
Pranams. Hari Om.
Harish
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Ram Chandran
Here is a mathematical question very similar to your question.
1. Anyone here who asks me to confirm that whether I know or seen infinity?
My answer is know what is infinity but I have no means to show anyone what infinity is.
2. Or if some asks to me say how close that I can describe infinity; my answer is whatever my answer I give close to infinity then someone can add an extra epsilon and declares that I am not close enough!
3) Or if the question is how long that I knew infinity then my answer is so far no one has agreed that I know the infinity!
The book, "The Man Who Knew Infinity: A Life of the Genius Ramanujan" is a biography of the Indian mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan, written in 1991 by Robert Kanigel. The book gives a detailed account of his upbringing in India, his mathematical achievements and his mathematical collaboration with mathematician G. H. Hardy. I do believe that Ramanujan knows infinity and much more of mathematics.
Swami Chinmayanda during one of his discourses on Vedanta was explaining the role of "Vasanas" in human life and why that needs to be destroyed in order to realize the Brahman. One attendee got up and asked Swamiji to explain when did "Vasana" begin? Swamiji asked the attendee to write down the question in a large paper and asked him to multifold the
paper carefully and keep it safely. Then he suggested that the attendee after his death, take that paper to God and ask him to answer! Swamiji assured the attendee that God will certainly provide the answer!! The punchline of this incident is to understand, that we are better off to know what to ask and what not to ask!!
Warm regards,
Ram Chandran
Akilesh Ayyar
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putran M
putran M
4. The knowers whose knowledge assimilation is so deep that it has resulted in mano-nasha. They are detached and disinterested in the events of the movie, and are ever rooted in the awareness ("Bliss") of the nondual Screen. They truly see the Self in all and all in Self, at all times.
If we consider this delineation, based on the movie analogy, there is a clear distinction between the ajnani of 1) and the categories of knowers who are distinguished not necessarily based on their fundamental knowledge of Reality but based on their chittashuddhi and resultant indulgence in maya-avidya (inspite of knowing it is indulgence in imagination, adhyasa). But I think this is a highly controversial topic within Advaita circle. Some say 2, 3, 4 are all enlightened and only 4 is also jivan-mukta; others say only 4 is enlightened = jivan-mukta. If we accept the first position, then I think there will be many among us who would have some insight/shraddha in advaita-tattva and hence may dare say they are not in 1, and closer to (if not in) 2 or 3. So "close to enlightened" perhaps though most here I expect would be well away from 4.thollmelukaalkizhu
.
Harish L B
For the past few years, I have been trying my best listening to the reflections shared in this group for some of these topics, and i have been quietly contemplating many of them within myself. I'm not an advanced student of Sanskrit myself, and therefore may have also missed a few inner meanings of those.
Coming back to the specific context in this email thread,
To me, these appear to be two subtly distinct orientations, and hence the question.
My apologies if my question seems elementary, but I am attempting to understand this distinction more clearly from the expert members of this group.
Kindly allow me to elaborate a little further on what I am trying to ask.
As i understand, the path towards enlightenment and the possibility of becoming a jīvanmukta is open to every human being.
If an individual has lived a life rooted in dharma because of his/her upbringing, has remained free from greed, has endured sufferings long enough to see the futility of emotional entanglement in it, has tasted enough small successes, yet no longer seeks to celebrate those successes anymore; And therefore the individual is detached and disinterested on the worldly pleasures and pains; then for such a person, what necessity remains for books or scriptures as prerequisites for enlightenment?
This is my doubt, and your guidance may be helpful.
Of course, such an individual has nothing to offer as a mentor to anyone, he/she may not be even a good communicator itself in the first place, the individual may not even know that something called advaitam and upanishad scriptures exist. His daily life itself maybe an example, and no one probably notices that.
I have listened to karmayoga vs jnanayoga. However, isn't that the purification process itself is leading to jivanmulkta in the example that i was citing? why does one need to learn the nuances in the scriptures and attain the knowledge to become one?
Since this realization (of enlightenment and jivanmukta) is a personal one, is it mandatory to follow the vedantic pursuit? unless there is a mandatory dharma for a jivanmukta to also explain and help others in an organized way to achieve that?
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Ram Chandran
Namaskar:
The question that you have in your mind may get refined more and more as time goes by with greater experience, right knowledge, faith with focus and determination and most importantly the grace of the Almighty. In a deterministic science like mathematics certain rules are developed for everyone to follow but there are exceptions. For example, for one to be become an expert in mathematics, the rule says that one has to undertake studies with mathematics from school, college and universities, etc. But some may undergo all such training but at the end may not become a great mathematician. On the other hand, we do have exceptions with the appearance of great prodigies such as Ramanujan to be exceptionally talented! To understand the essence of Vedanta, a good starter is the simple composition of Shankaracharya, the well known “Bhaja Govindam.” The essence of Bhaja Govindam is that intellectual and worldly pursuits are ultimately empty, and true peace and liberation come from one’s devotion to Govinda! The emphasis of this work is the need for spiritual awakening. It also advises us to surrender to God because material accomplishments, wealth, and desire will not help one at the time of death. The work illustrates that understanding the transient nature of life leads to ever-lasting happiness.
Here are some key observations:
Bhaja Govindam argues that material possessions, and achievements are temporary.
It cautions against lust and the sorrows that arise from desire.
It advocates for devotion to God for salvation and to avoid the cycle of birth and death.
The hymn urges one to question their true identity beyond the material world.
It reminds us once more that that must seek the eternal truth before it is too late.
My conclusion to your question is that we need to prepare ourself for an ultimate goal with a single focused mind instead of allowing our mind to wander without a focus!
Warm regards,
Ram Chandran
Harish L B
Thank you Putran ji, Ram Chandran ji and Akilesh ji.
khaaksaar
A story is told about Lao Tzu, who was once asked the same question: Are you enlightened?
His reply with wit winged with wisdom:
"If I say, 'yes,' then certainly I am not. If I say, 'no,' then probably I will not be telling the truth."
Perhaps, रहीमदास said it best:
'रहिमन' बात अगम्य की, कहनि-सुननि की नाहिं।
Srigurucharansarojrajratah,
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putran M
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Chittaranjan Naik
Namaste Sri Harish-ji,
I generally keep to myself nowadays and do not engage much in discussions but something in your message invoked me to respond, so here goes....
May i humbly ask
whether it is accurate to say that the discussions that primarily illuminate
the functional knowledge found in the scriptures regarding the attainment of
enlightenment (and then leading to jivanmukta) is completely
different from embarking on a simple life journey that can lead to
becoming a jīvanmukta? To me, these appear to be two subtly distinct
orientations, and hence the question.
I presume that the scriptures you are referring to are the Vedanta scriptures comprising the Upanishads and all those subsidiary scriptures that elucidate what is revealed in the Upanishads and present varying degrees of arguments to dispel the doubts about them. If so, then they do not constitute a different path than the one that leads to jivanmukti. It is not the scriptures themselves but the orientation of the seeker that often makes it into a different path than the one laid out in the scriptures. How so?
The path of jnana nishta that leads to jivanmukti is a path that opens out to a seeker when he attains certain qualifications, primarily viveka accompanied by vairagya and mumukshatva. The kind of vairagya that is spoken of here is the complete loss of taste for the world and the kind of mumkukshatva referred to is an unbearable thirst for attaining Brahman. If those superlative degrees of vairagya and mumukshatva are lacking and one still retains some taste for the world, then the desire for Brahman is likely to be compromised to some extent. When the desire for Brahman thus gets diluted by worldly desires, then there is the likelihood that the scriptures may be used to argue for one’s ‘own philosophical position’ rather than as a means to attain knowledge. It is in such a situation that the seeker may take to a path of dry scriptural study and argumentation making the path appear to diverge from the genuine path that would take him to jivanmukti.
As i understand, the path towards enlightenment and the possibility of becoming a jīvanmukta is open to every human being.
Yes, of course, it is open to every human being. But one needs to keep in mind that for most human beings this does not consist of just one path but comprises two paths, the prior path of karma-marga and the succeeding path of jnana-marga. The prior path of karma-marga is the path that takes one to chitta-shuddi, mental purity, which is the condition required for the seeker to be able to attain fruition on the succeeding path of jnana-marga. In practice there may not be a sharp dividing line between the two paths, but the condition of chitta-shuddhi is a necessary condition in so far as jivanmukti cannot be attained if chitta-shuddhi has not been attained beforehand.
If an individual has lived a life
rooted in dharma because of his/her upbringing, has remained free from greed,
has endured sufferings long enough to see the futility of emotional
entanglement in it, has tasted enough small successes, yet no longer seeks to
celebrate those successes anymore; And therefore the individual is detached and
disinterested on the worldly pleasures and pains; then for such a person,
what necessity remains for books or scriptures as prerequisites for
enlightenment?
This is my doubt, and your guidance may be helpful.
What you’ve described here is an individual who has followed the path of karma-marga. And what such a person attains by following the path of karma is chitta-shuddhi. That chitta-shuddhi, because of the transparency of the stainless purity of mind, spontaneously gives rise to knowledge of the atman. But the rise of such atma-jnana is not the end. It is just the beginning of the path of jnana-nishta. The path of jnana-nishta is a path that begins with the rise of atma-jnana and takes one to its perfection known as sadyo-mukti. It is a state of perfection in which there is no more karma, hence it is also called naiskarmya-siddhi. It is the irrevocable attainment of jivanmukti.
Now, the question you’ve raised – what necessity remains for books or scriptures as pre-requisites for enlightenment for a person who has followed the path of dharma and attained disinterestedness in worldly pleasures and pains? This argument is similar to the argument that the (Purva) Mimamsakas offer – they say that when you faithfully follow the path of dharma, the knowledge of atman arises spontaneously, so what need is there for anything further to be done? But Vedanta says that that rise of knowledge is the beginning of the path of renunciation which, strictly speaking, is a path of sannyasa. It is a specific path marked by shravana, manana and nidhidhyasana which constitutes the path of nivritti dharma as distinct from the path of pravritti-dharma which is the path that the person you’ve described has followed so far. So yes, there is something more, by way of shravana, manana and nidhidhyasana for that person to adhere to before he may attain jivanmukti. And the scriptures do come in useful for manana, the dissolution of all the residual doubts so that his nidhidhayasana, abidance in Brahman, may be steady and unperturbed. That state of steadiness in abidance in Brahman is the state of a sthitha-prajna.
Warm regards,
Chittaranjan
dwa...@advaita.org.uk
The simple answer to your original question about asking someone if they are enlightened is that it is almost certainly the case that the questioner does not really understand what the term means so that the question cannot be answered without significant explanation. Similarly asking about jīvanmukti. You could almost say that the entirety of Advaita teaching is about explaining these terms.
The absolute ‘bottom line’ is that there is only Brahman. So ‘you’ are already Brahman. The ‘world’ is also Brahman and there are not really any separate people, objects etc. You do not actually have to do anything at all to ‘become’ Brahman. Indeed, you cannot. But this understanding is the END of the teaching of Advaita, not the beginning. Your mind (intellect) has to go through the process of hearing and learning all of the intermediate stuff, even though you effectively drop it in the end, because your education and upbringing means that it is simply unacceptable initially. It goes against all of your perception and interpreted experience, because that initial interpretation is based upon your present ignorance.
‘Doing’ anything is not going to bring about this understanding although, as others have pointed out, a certain degree of mental preparation is required in order to enable the mind to be able to listen to the teaching and not simply reject it as being unbelievable. All ‘desires’ other than the wish to gain this knowledge need to be dropped and ideally you would find a qualified teacher to explain everything. Then it is ‘just’ a matter of time and dedication. When you finally know these things to be true, that is ‘enlightenment’.
But the ‘person’ has long-learned habits and inclinations that are not going to disappear overnight, even once the understanding has been gained. The teaching is that you have repeatedly to revisit the teaching – listening, reading or even becoming a teacher yourself – before everything becomes ‘second nature’. If and when that occurs (it may well never do so), you can be called a jīvanmukta.
Best wishes,
Dennis
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