Traditional Perspectives on birth-based varna dharma and Sanatana dharma

[putran M]

Namaskaram,

See attached file that contains a compilation of thoughts in this topic, approached mainly from the orthodox lens. Most of it is my writings since starting the other thread, but I have included Bhaskar-ji's answers to my questions and also an excellent general essay that Aravinda Rao-ji shared.

thollmelukaalkizhu

[Aravinda Rao]

Namaskaram Putran ji, 

It is a very useful compilation. Thank you. 

Aravinda Rao 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Putranji,

In Dwapara yuga Lord Ram had to kill Shambuka, a shudra, who started doing tapa and neglected his own duty, as a result of which, a brahmin boy died. But had it been in the Kalu yuga, Shambuka could heve been free to do the tapa, and alse could have read the dharma-shastras. But a learned and dedicated dvija and particularly a dvija-shreshtha (brahmin) would surely have advantage over a novice shudra in spiritual practice.

My 2 cents

skb

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[putran M]

Namaskaram,

Just saw these politicians' latest defense in the courts of their right and responsibility to attack 'evil' sanatana Dharma.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/sanatana-dharma-propounds-abominable-pernicious-illegal-and-evil-practices-nilgiris-mp-a-raja-tells-madras-high-court/article67521674.ece

thollmelukaalkizhu 

[সপ্ত Rishi]

It is a broad statement given by the member of legislative(famous for being in jail for embezzelment).

Though,putranji have you read the history of dharmashastras by mahamahopadhyaya pv.kane,he has explained in detail all of these topics.There is also a smaller version of that gigantic text.

Though i would say please contact and discuss this issue in length with sri nithin sridhar ji,since he is an exceptional writer on the subject of dharmashastras(specifically manu dharmashastra).

I believe he is in this group too.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2023, 08:11 putran M, <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram,

Just saw these politicians' latest defense in the courts of their right and responsibility to attack 'evil' sanatana Dharma.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/sanatana-dharma-propounds-abominable-pernicious-illegal-and-evil-practices-nilgiris-mp-a-raja-tells-madras-high-court/article67521674.ece

thollmelukaalkizhu 

On Thu, 21 Sept, 2023, 11:21 pm putran M, <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram,

See attached file that contains a compilation of thoughts in this topic, approached mainly from the orthodox lens. Most of it is my writings since starting the other thread, but I have included Bhaskar-ji's answers to my questions and also an excellent general essay that Aravinda Rao-ji shared.

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[putran M]

Namaskaram Rishi-ji,

I have not yet read his works but thanks for the reference. I will start to read parts of it at least. I see most of the parts are available online in pdf or archives. Nithin-ji as you said is our member, so we can certainly benefit if he chooses to contribute his knowledge and perspectives on these topics.

http://ignca.nic.in/Asi_data/46948.pdf

https://ignca.gov.in/Asi_data/70621.pdf

https://indianculture.gov.in/ebooks/history-dharmasastra-ancient-and-medieval-religious-and-civil-law-india

I just had an argument with my cousin who is staunchly committed to these parties. The headache-inducing debates have the utility that we get insight into their clever arguments.

1. Sanatana Dharma is non-different from Manu dharma of the Manu smriti. So eradication of sanatana dharma means the eradication of the evil practices encoded in manu dharma. Manu is the first person to talk of "Sanatana Dharma", hence it is the injunctions of his smriti that are synonymous with what is called sanatana dharma by its Hindu followers. Sanatana (manu) dharma is this bad part within Hinduism and is not synonymous to Hinduism.

2. Manu smriti is rooted in the caste system and propagates high-low divisions in society. Hence it is not wrong to call for its destruction as it is fundamentally evil.

3. The politicians have clarified that by sanatana dharma they mean only the manusmriti endorsed dharma. Hence they are not wrong to attack it. This has also always been their ideology, so what they are saying now they have always said before.

4. To the question, "How can they who don't follow manusmriti call for the eradication of the religion followed by the followers of manusmriti?", the answer is "Hinduism allows its followers the freedom to oppose (even to call for destruction of) the evils encoded within their religious way of life. Hinduism is all-inclusive including of atheists; the atheist politicians are still Hindu and therefore can call for the destruction of sanatana dharma which is a flawed part of the religion." That is, the politician (Udayanidhi) being Hindu (by birth, not withstanding his overtures to Christian crowds) can call for the destruction of the "sanatana dharma" part of his religion Hinduism because that supposed "dharma" is bigotry etc.

5. "Can we then call for the destruction of Islam because it promotes polygamy terrorism etc.?" To this: "We are not calling for destruction of Hinduism. Only sanatana dharma which is manu dharma only and propagates caste system, sati and so on. Are you supporting sati?..." (Sanatana dharma = manu dharma = caste-system, women oppression etc. A Hindu calling for eradication of sanatana dharma is not same as calling for eradication of Hinduism and the latter alone would be similar to calling for eradication of Islam whereas the former is like a Muslim calling for eradication of triple-talaq or polygamy.)

6. "Sanatana" dharma even when referred to by acharyas is not to be understood in positive connotations; but simply that it is something that has been around forever. But religion is subject to change and evolution as we naturally choose the positive and reject the negative whether they are eternal or not. "Sanatana (manu) dharma" therefore should not be conflated with dharma or dharma shastras in general like what is found in thirukkural or the dharma that Krishna talks about taking avataras to protect.

So the game is hinged on reducing the phrase "sanatana dharma" to a system of do's and don'ts prescribed in a particular text, the Manusmriti (which they validate by quoting from past books like in the link I sent); to regard the manusmriti as being founded in supposed bigotry and discrimination of the caste-system and women oppression; to say that the calling for eradication of sanatana dharma is not the same as calling for destruction of Hinduism (or any religion per se) but simply of those evil so-called "dharma" taught in the manusmriti which are pervading Hindu society even now.

So, we are in a precarious situation where no matter how the majority of sanatanis (Hindus) may regard that phrase as defining their religion and its practice, the nastika people in power are claiming the right to define and propagate its meaning according to their ideology, and thereby to abuse and call for its destruction. And the rest of us are waiting in bated breath as to how one or two judges in courts will decide our fate at the hands of these devils. The type of questioning by these judges sends me shivers because it seems to fall into the trap of negating the legitimacy of the birth-based varnashrama dharma as a part of the orthodox Hindu religion, (therefore not protecting them in the way Islam is protected from such abuses), paving the way for a judgment that validates these politicians' reasoning and allowing them to carry on with their abuse of sanatana dharma. I understand the party has already announced they will review and change the earlier educational material regarding "sanatana dharma" in school texts; if the court does not stop them here and now, it simply becomes open allowance for their divisive attacks on Hinduism.

 

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[সপ্ত Rishi]

They cannot conviniently say that sanatana dharma is manu professed dharma,since sanatana dharma has been defined by vyasa categorically in puranas,one of it's angas are the smritis of which the one is manu smriti,now those so called statements are to be seen in accordance to the other statements recorded in that very particular smriti and also other smritis and tantras(yes,amazingly like mahanirvana tantra etc.)using the rigorous principles of mimamsa.

Just going by translation,is practically nonsensical since the language is to be judged based on other passages in the text with the help of principles of purva mimamsa,and to be judged whether or not in the first place is it vidhi.

Also,how is mr.stalin a hindu by birth ? Did he proclaim himself to believe in karma,janmantara etc. from the day he was able to speak ?

It is hilarious as to how he practices Hinduism without resorting to smritis,dharmashastras !

Or,perhaps as per constitution he is a hindu because he is not a christian or a muslim.Even then he is trying to call for eradication of someone else's practices,so the actual question is,what skin does he have in this game at all !

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[সপ্ত Rishi]

First of all the dmk party needs to prove by citing sanskrit sources alone that those shlokas are as such and also the practitioners of sanatana dharma are bound by them.

And also putran ji,what is the response from the other party,what are they saying ?

[putran M]

Namaskaram Rishi-ji,

And also putran ji,what is the response from the other party,what are they saying ?

You mean the BJP? I don't know. As I understand, the court case is on-going. The other side will probably respond next to the arguments put forth by the DMK side. But the "caste" issue puts everyone, including likely the judges, on the defensive, as if they should treat the orthodox Hindu religion alone to a different standard than all other religions. I have no issue if the law gives absolute freedom to criticize, condemn and call for destruction across the board. But the orthodox Hindu religion deserves as much protection under law as any other, whatever the unorthodox, non-Hindu, or nastikas think of it. This is where the dmk minds are working overtime to de-legitimize the orthodox's religious standing so they can validate attacking it in the name of its "abominal" beliefs and practices.

 

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[সপ্ত Rishi]

If Bjp is the other party then it is worrying,since thay are too bought into this whole caste atrocity thing.I don't know but they could atleast employ someone from BORI to consult on this issue or Sringeri sabha pandits,especially those proficient in dharmashastras.But lets just see what happens,what is the Daiva.🙏

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[putran M]

Namaskaram,

Sri Rangarajan Narasimhan.on Varna and birth :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY02zQhNJos  (Related discussion in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91W3kE0HD50)

These are smh the first videos I am seeing of someone of repute presenting the traditional sampradaya standpoint 'as it is'. Highlights include: 1. the 3 major sampradayas (advaita, visishtadvaita, dvaita) - that follow the three acharyas - are unwavering about the fact that varna is 'by birth'; 2. the right understanding of BG 4.13; 3. Vishwamitra is a brahmana by birth!! 4. It should be the work of sampradaya gurus and acharyas of TODAY to teach the right understanding of dharma, and not to hide themselves from addressing the raging confusion in society in order to win the favour of politicians. 5. If you claim to be an advaitin (of Shankara sampradaya), then you should not be going against the teachings of the acharya. Likewise for VA and dvaita. If not, you can follow another siddhanta of your own making and confusions - and that is how you and your talk are to be identified by the followers of the traditional sampradaya. (He adds an interesting point that this sort of confusion is being propagated primarily by the advaitis, although new-age vaishnavites like (Name in video) are starting to do the same.)

Closer to us, an old post of Chitta-ji on this topic has been made available in https://pragyata.com/varna-and-birth/

thollmelukaalkizhu

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

We should not lose sight of the fundamental statement, for any yuga:

"JanmanA jAyate Shudra

My 2 cents

Sunil KB

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 10:32 AM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram,

Sri Rangarajan Narasimhan.on Varna and birth :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY02zQhNJos  (Related discussion in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91W3kE0HD50)

These are smh the first videos I am seeing of someone of repute presenting the traditional sampradaya standpoint 'as it is'. Highlights include: 1. the 3 major sampradayas (advaita, visishtadvaita, dvaita) - that follow the three acharyas - are unwavering about the fact that varna is 'by birth'; 2. the right understanding of BG 4.13; 3. Vishwamitra is a brahmana by birth!! 4. It should be the work of sampradaya gurus and acharyas of TODAY to teach the right understanding of dharma, and not to hide themselves from addressing the raging confusion in society in order to win the favour of politicians. 5. If you claim to be an advaitin (of Shankara sampradaya), then you should not be going against the teachings of the acharya. Likewise for VA and dvaita. If not, you can follow another siddhanta of your own making and confusions - and that is how you and your talk are to be identified by the followers of the traditional sampradaya. (He adds an interesting point that this sort of confusion is being propagated primarily by the advaitis, although new-age vaishnavites like (Name in video) are starting to do the same.)

Closer to us, an old post of Chitta-ji on this topic has been made available in https://pragyata.com/varna-and-birth/

thollmelukaalkizhu

On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 1:51 PM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram,

See attached file that contains a compilation of thoughts in this topic, approached mainly from the orthodox lens. Most of it is my writings since starting the other thread, but I have included Bhaskar-ji's answers to my questions and also an excellent general essay that Aravinda Rao-ji shared.

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[putran M]

Sri Rangarajan Narasimhan.on Varna and birth :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY02zQhNJos  (Related discussion in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91W3kE0HD50)

These are smh the first videos I am seeing of someone of repute presenting the traditional sampradaya standpoint 'as it is'.

I meant, following or in response to the recent controversies. We do have the older videos of the puri shankaracharya as well.

 

[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

PranAms

1. Vajrasichi Upanishat says by guna and Karma not by birth

 Satvic -vs Rajasik vs Tamasic and their relative proportions.

Evolution is from Tamasic to Rajasik to Satvic. 

2. Yudhishtara in answering Nishisha says that it is only by guna and karma.

Acharyas were following the customary system prevailing in the society. 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

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[putran M]

Namaskaram Sada-ji,

Let me answer as if to someone random:

Or in parallel, the new-age acharyas - influenced too much by modern science and politics - are following the fashion of this day, which is to reject or undermine varnashrama Dharma, Veda apaurusheya, etc. As Narasimhan-ji said, they can have their own Siddhanta, being clear that they reject the acharyas in these fundamentals of the tradition. Those who aver to the acharyas will regard them as confused characters out to confuse the society at large and weaken the adherence to Hindu dharma.

thollmelukaalkizhu 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaskar Sadanandaji,

One's next birth is surely due to one's past Karmas and the Gunas developed in that birth. Let us take the case a boy taking birth in a brahmin family and that must have happened due to his past Karma and Guna. But,  one who has  taken birth in a brahmin family, should remember that one has to make oneself fit to be called a brahmin or remain a brahmin. Satyakama did not know his Varna but his truthfulness convinced the rishi that he deserved to be taken as a disciple, where only one born in a brahmin family could be admitted. Vishwamitra was not born brahmin by birth, but he could become a brahmin, with his efforts. .That is how the statement "janmanA jAyate Shudra" has to be interpreted. Without the proper spirit and efforts one may not remain worthy to be called brahmin., even though one might have taken birth in a brahmin family.

Lord Shiva has a name "Shunya", and that does not mean that Lord Shiva  is not there, but it means that he is everywhere and can't be identified with limited descriptions.

Regards

Sunil KB

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[ravi chandrasekhara]

Pranam Sadanandji,

So if a European Caucasian male professes belief in Hinduism, is vegetarian, outward satvik behavior and lifestyle. And is a philosophy professor in a University. Does puja, yoga, follows achara;

Is then permissible by shastras to marry an IYER Brahmin (by birth and heredity) girl, who also is satvik, veg, etc and who also is a daughter of an acharya or purohit?

Also is allowed to undergo Upanayana and have Vedadhikara ( per shastras, not based on web availability, Arya Samaj, or ISKCON) ?

Of course he is eligible for moksha!

Ravi Chandrasekhara  MD

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

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.

[ravi chandrasekhara]

Or would that African Pujari vowed on X/Twitter would be Shastrically allowed to marry an Iyengar Brahmin girl whose father is a Sri Vaishnava Acharya?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

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.

[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

PraNAms

Krishna's classification is universal based on Guna and Karma. 

Cultural differences are different depending on the environment in which one grows. 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

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.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaskar,

Yes That is undisuptable. Past Guna and Karma decide where one will take one's birth. Thereafter,  having been born, the future of the born individual  will depend on his or her karma in the present birth.

Regards.

Sunil KB

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[putran M]

Namaskaram,

 

Krishna's classification is universal based on Guna and Karma. 

Chitta-ji's article: "Birth is not the cause of Varna, as popularly understood; it is the identifier. Varna is determined by the relative proportion of the gunas (sattva, rajas, and tamas) in a jiva. The proportion of the gunas in a jiva is caused by past karma; hence, the cause of Varna is past karma. Therefore, past karma is the determinant of both Varna and birth. Thus, there is more of a correlation than a causation between Varna and birth. To reiterate, the expression “varna is by birth” does not mean that birth is the cause of varna; it means that birth is the identification mark of varna."

Sri Narasimhan-ji also addresses the interpretations of BG 4.13 starting around minute 6 and states the positions taken by the three main acharyas.

Logically,

our desire-based karma modulates the subtle body, creating a guna conditioned state that cannot or is not resolved in the present body. Ishvara bestows the jiva with a suitable gross body in a subsequent life that allows the jiva with this guna-state to optimally resolve the conditioning should it abide by the svadharma corresponding to the birth body. The more precisely identifiable our birth identifiers, the more precisely the shastras can help identify our svadharma. 

For example, if one is born in a purusha body, then that knowledge is pramana for knowing the jiva's purusha svadharma. It doesn't matter if the jiva gets confused about it and starts claiming to be a stree. We can call such a position to be traditional "religion"; which would be different from a modern religion that considers gender-based gunas to be mind-based variables and that one can discover/decide mid-life one's true gunas to be a stree's and hence declare one is a stree though having a purusha body!

Likewise, when it comes to varna, it is the orthodox religion's position that when one is born in a vaidika family in which the varna lineage is preserved through traditional arranged marriages, then that obtains decisive knowledge of our real varna as assigned by Ishvara at birth, and thus we also learn of the inner gunas and svadharma as it pertains to the ultimate purushaartha. Our traditional culture is the manifestation of this knowledge; so yes those born in the vaidika society have the svadharma of preserving those aspects of their culture that uphold this varna-dharma knowledge and varna-based society.

In that sense, of course, it is bogus to claim that I am a brahmin who happens to be born in the US and hence it is ok to marry out of varna or out of sanatana dharma because the ambient culture accepts it. This sort of inevitable mess is why they said in the beginning that we should not be crossing overseas to begin with! You would still be deviating from the svadharma corresponding to your varna and Ishvara will give the corresponding karmaphala later on. Not that we care about it at this point of depravity.

thollmelukaalkizhu

[ravi chandrasekhara]

Pranam,

Few more questions

1.If universal classification, is it hereditary ?

2.If universal with or without hereditary, if someone in another ethnic group/religion is a " Brahmin based on guna/karma", then how does achara/shastric vidhis/nishedas apply ? For example, if in a European family, social consumption in moderation of alcohol is not taboo but it is a maha paataka for Brahmins and also that person will/may not know anything about sandhya-vandana, so did he commit a paapam by not performing? What about sutaka rules, etc, one can go on. 

3.Also external appearance of gunas may change and really only a  realized Guru/Ishwara can know guna of an individual, but there is no Guru to assign varna to every person on Earth.

4.If not hereditary, then it is stating that varna and jaati are NOT the same (Trad POV, jaati is subset of varna).

5. So if jatai does NOT equal varna, then as mentioned above, an Iyer Brahmin working as an investment banker, can claim Vaishya status. Then at age 25-30 when he becomes a banker, he has to change SV mantras, wear different type of yagnopaveeta as per shastras ?

6.So what if an Iyer girl "by guna" is Brahmin and is engaged to that banker Iyer  "who by guna guna/karma " is a Vaishya; can they marry as per shastras ?

7.Also Ashwattamma committed a heinous crime, so is he still a Brahmin ? If not, then what varna ? And why should other varnas except the claim that when a Brahmin commits a transgression, hence is now part of their varna ?

8.Also do/can gunas change since karmas (action/occupation) can change ? So for example, that Brahmin now leaves banking and becomes a full time practicing Vaidiki Brahmin (there IT/engineers who have done so), so should he now change is SV mantras ? 

9.So, one can see this confused thinking/understanding when saying Universal classification. So Brahmin boys may say they are behaving like Shudras and can now look for matrimonial alliance among girls of Shudra jaatis or claim that a Blonde haired, blue eyed European girl who belongs to ISKCON is a Brahmin and has shastric justification to marry her. 

10.Being "Good" doesn't equal being a "Brahmin", that's insulting to to other varnas and to those outside of varna classification.

11.Maybe a better understanding is based on a book by AH Srinivas "Sanatana Dharma and Hindutva";  Varna can have 3 components: karma is occupation/action and can change, guna cannot really be known except by a jnaani/Guru/Ishwara, jaati/janma is used for "Rot-Beti" associations, marriage, rituals, vidhis/nishedas, etc. 

12.An analogy given by by Puri Shankaracharya Sri Nischaland Saraswati, pehle Kon aaya, haath ya haath ka kaam. As in which is first, birth or work/occupation with regards to varna assignment, which states is birth.

Dhanayavaada,

Ravi Chandrasekhara MD

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.

[Bhaskar YR]

Or in parallel, the new-age acharyas - influenced too much by modern science and politics - are following the fashion of this day, which is to reject or undermine varnashrama Dharma, Veda apaurusheya, etc.

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

Yes, it this new-age acharya-s are mostly from non-duality tradition ( I don’t want to say here it is orthodox Advaita sampradaya) they simply teach advaita in ‘vyavahAra’ too 😊 They should make themselves sure  that this catholic approach should not creep in traditional dharma / karma practices. 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar