jivanmukti & Lord Rama query
aham brahmaasmi
Akilesh Ayyar
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लोकेश
Venkatraghavan S
Akilesh Ayyar
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V Subrahmanian
https://vivekavani.com/jan3/
Swami Turiyananda was born on 3 January 1863
One day at Cossipore Harinath (Swami Turiyananda) asked, “Sir, how are you?” The Master replied: “Oh, I am in great pain. I cannot eat anything, and there is an unbearable burning in my throat.” Harinath knew that a knower of Brahman is beyond the pairs of opposites, pleasure and pain. He understood that the Master was testing him, so he said to him humbly, “Sir, whatever you may say, I see you as an infinite ocean of bliss.” At this, Sri Ramakrishna said with a smile, “This rascal has found me out.”
(p.364, God Lived With Them)
Swami Sarvapriyananda continued to say another related incident: When Harinath persisted seeing Ramakrishna in pain, the latter replied: It's only the mind that becomes a sage and not the body.
regards
subbu
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Sudhanshu Shekhar
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Akilesh Ayyar
Namaste Akilesh ji,//The mind cannot be jnani since it is the product of ignorance; the atman need not be, since it cannot be ignorant. So then who is it?//This dilemma would be present even while defining ajnAnI. It is not exclusive to jnAnI.
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Kalyan
- अधर्मे वर्तमानानां सर्वेषामहमप्युत |
धर्मस्य सेतुं बध्नामि चलिते चलिते युगे ||१५||
तास्ता योनीः प्रविश्याहं प्रजानां हितकाम्यया ||१५||
यदा त्वहं देवयोनौ वर्तामि भृगुनन्दन |
तदाहं देववत्सर्वमाचरामि न संशयः ||१६||
यदा गन्धर्वयोनौ तु वर्तामि भृगुनन्दन |
तदा गन्धर्ववच्चेष्टाः सर्वाश्चेष्टामि भार्गव ||१७||
नागयोनौ यदा चैव तदा वर्तामि नागवत् |
यक्षराक्षसयोनीश्च यथावद्विचराम्यहम् ||१८||
मानुष्ये वर्तमाने तु कृपणं याचिता मया |
न च ते जातसंमोहा वचो गृह्णन्ति मे हितम् ||१९||
Sudhanshu Shekhar
The below is mere words. It’s all very seemingly neat and conceptually plain. In reality, however, it is anything but.
2. अद्वैतज्ञानं मनोवृत्तिमात्रम् (ChhAndOgya Upanishad BhAshya: 1.1)
Bhaskar YR
अद्वैतज्ञानं मनोवृत्तिमात्रम्
praNAms Sri Sudhanshu prabhuji
Hare Krishna
advaita jnAnaM manOvrutti mAtraM…yatO vAchO nivartante aprApya manasa saha….please elaborate…no time to discuss in detail…just wanted to know your view points.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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BHASKAR YR |
From: adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Sudhanshu Shekhar
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2024 2:58 PM
To: adva...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [advaitin] jivanmukti & Lord Rama query
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Sudhanshu Shekhar
advaita jnAnaM manOvrutti mAtraM…yatO vAchO nivartante aprApya manasa saha….please elaborate…no time to discuss in detail…just wanted to know your view points.
Coupled with nididhyAsana and manana leading to removal of viparIta-bhAvanA and asambhAvanA respectively, this advaita-jnAna is in the form of akhanDAkArA-vritti. This vritti does not have a seen as its vishaya. A manO-vritti not having a seen as vishaya is called akhanDAkArA-vritti or BrahmAkArA-vritti or AtmAkArA-vritti.
prArabdha-rUpa-pratibandhaka-vishishTa-akhanDAkArA-vritti-pratibimbita-chaitanya leads to removal of प्रपञ्चे पारमार्थिकत्वादिभ्रमहेतुशक्ति: and प्रपञ्चे अर्थक्रियासमर्थत्वसम्पादकशक्ति: of avidyA but does not remove अपरोक्षप्रतिभासयोग्यार्थाभासजनिकायाः शक्ति:. prArabdha-rUpa-pratibandhaka-rahita-akhanDAkArA-vritti-pratibimbita-chaitanya leads of removal of अपरोक्षप्रतिभासयोग्यार्थाभासजनिकायाः शक्ति: also.
Sorry if I went beyond my brief while elaborating. 🙂
Bhaskar YR
praNAms Sri Sudhanshu prabhuji
Hare Krishna
Thanks for sharing your view points. There cannot be nirguNa nirvishesha jnAna after all anything about jnAna as prama is not / cannot be referring to nirguNa nirvishesha jnAna. As all jnAna is vrutti mAtraM. Is this what you are saying??
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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BHASKAR YR |
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Hare Krishna Bhaskar prabhu ji.
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Sudhanshu Shekhar
Thanks for sharing your view points. There cannot be nirguNa nirvishesha jnAna after all anything about jnAna as prama is not / cannot be referring to nirguNa nirvishesha jnAna. As all jnAna is vrutti mAtraM. Is this what you are saying?
When the word "jnAna" is used to refer to shuddha chaitanya, jnAnatva refers to jaDa-anyatva-vishishTa-tAdAtmya-upalakshita-swarUpatva or artha-prakAshatva-vishishTa-tAdAtmya-upalakshita-swarUpatva.
putran M
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
Likewise, expect a jivanmukta has 100% conviction that He is the unchanging Self of all and yet at BMI level, can also be a witness to and participant in the Play simultaneously.
Ø And as per some jeevanmukta’s participation is due to ‘avidyAlesha’ ( a remnant of his previously acquired avidyA), so jeevanmukta is in strict sense not ‘completely realized one’. Hence Videha mukti considered as ‘mukhya mukti’ and jeevanmukti as ‘gaUNa mukti’. Someone would even say : brahma jnAna / realization would bring ‘immediate physical death of that jnAni’ as dehadhAraNa (embodiedness) is avidyAkruta. And one who attains this feat (sadyOmukti) is called ‘sadyOmukta’.
Sudhanshu Shekhar
And as per some jeevanmukta’s participation is due to ‘avidyAlesha’ ( a remnant of his previously acquired avidyA), so jeevanmukta is in strict sense not ‘completely realized one’. Hence Videha mukti considered as ‘mukhya mukti’ and jeevanmukti as ‘gaUNa mukti’.
Someone would even say : brahma jnAna / realization would bring ‘immediate physical death of that jnAni’ as dehadhAraNa (embodiedness) is avidyAkruta. And one who attains this feat (sadyOmukti) is called ‘sadyOmukta’.
Please note that both views are in accordance with sampradAya as mentioned by Naishkarmya Siddhi. Cgitsukhacharya says - एवं सद्योमुक्तिपक्षमङ्गीकृत्य शेषशेषिभावः परिहृतः । अधुना तात्पर्यमाह - वास्तवेनैवेत्यादिना- जीवन्मुक्तिक्षे न शेषशेषिभाव इत्युत्तरग्रन्थस्य
That there are two descriptions mukti, namely sadyOmukti and jIvanmukti is clear from Naishkarmya Siddhi. 4.54 to 59 is sadyOmukti, and 4.60 onwards is jIvanmukti.
Bhaskar YR
praNAms Sri Sudhanshu prabhuji
Hare Krishna
In srishTi-drishTi-vAda, avidyAlesha is present during jIvanmukti.
- Mukti and avidyAlesha both can co-exist like tamaH-prakAsha in SDV!!?? What type of mukti it is when this mukta is still having the traces of avidyA ?? can there be a complete eradication of sarpa jnAna and complete (paripUrNa) knowledge of rajju, when one is still having the traces of sarpa jnAna!!??
avidyAlesha refers taNo that shakti of avidyA which is the cause of objects which are eligible for aparOksha-perception (अपरोक्षप्रतिभासयोग्यार्थाभासजनिकायाः शक्तिः). This continues despite jnAna because prArabdha-rUpa-pratibandhaka is present.
- When you are still talking about pratibandhaka there is no meaning to mukti here…Please share what is your understanding of ‘mukti’ ??
Other shakti namely प्रपञ्चे पारमार्थिकत्वादिभ्रमहेतुशक्तिः and प्रपञ्चे अर्थक्रियासमर्थत्वसम्पादकशक्तिः are removed. Since these two shakti are removed, which are the cause of bondage, the term "mukti" is very much apt for jIvanmukti.
Ø Again big big nomenclature to avidyA shakti!! Which is ultimately concluded as Kalpita and adhyArOpita. Anyway as I said above when you are talking about pratibaNdhaka you cannot talk about jeevamukti. Very sanctity of ‘mukti’ pada will be lost when there is an iota of pratibandhaka / avidyAlesha. Eha brahmaNi nAnA nAsti kiMchana aNumAtramapi. So some sort of pratibaNdhaka and jeevanmukti cannot co-exist in a same person / jnAni.
Someone would even say : brahma jnAna / realization would bring ‘immediate physical death of that jnAni’ as dehadhAraNa (embodiedness) is avidyAkruta. And one who attains this feat (sadyOmukti) is called ‘sadyOmukta’.
Where have you read this that sadyOmukti entails physical death? Please cite a reference other than klesha-apahAriNI.
Ø Just find out in later vyAkhyAna-s it must have been said. And in kleshApahAriNi this type of non-sense stand has been completely refuted by Sri SSS.
SadyOmukti and jIvanmukti are distinguished. Naishkarmya Siddhi, along with commentary by Chitsukhacharya, 4.56 to 4.61 may be perused. The two views are distinguished. Here also, the jIvanmukti is stated as the alternative.
सम्यग्ज्ञानशिखिप्लुष्टमोहतत्कार्यरूपिणः। सकृन्निवृत्तेर्बाध्यस्य किं कार्यमवशिष्यते ॥ ५९ ॥
वास्तवेनैव वृत्तेनाविद्यायाः प्रध्वस्तत्वात् न किञ्चिदवशिष्यत इत्युक्तः परिहारः ।
अथापरस्साम्प्रदायिक:-
निवृत्त
सर्प: सर्वोत्थं
यथा कम्पं
न मुञ्चति I
विध्वस्ताखिलमोहोऽपि मोहकार्यं
तथात्मवित्
॥६०॥
Please note that both views are in accordance with sampradAya as mentioned by Naishkarmya Siddhi. Cgitsukhacharya says -
एवं सद्योमुक्तिपक्षमङ्गीकृत्य
शेषशेषिभावः
परिहृतः
। अधुना
तात्पर्यमाह - वास्तवेनैवेत्यादिना-
जीवन्मुक्तिक्षे
न शेषशेषिभाव
इत्युत्तरग्रन्थस्य
तात्पर्यमाह ।
That there are two descriptions mukti, namely sadyOmukti and jIvanmukti is clear from Naishkarmya Siddhi. 4.54 to 59 is sadyOmukti, and 4.60 onwards is jIvanmukti.
Ø Brahmaiva hi muktyAvasthA, na-cha brahmaNOnekAkArayOgOsti clarifies bhAshyakAra in sUtra bhAshya. The difference you are talking about between sadyOmukta and jeevanmukta is quite untenable considering the fact that sashareeratvasya mithyAjnAnanimittatvAt.
- By the way in SDV and ajAtavAda different types of mukti-s advocated by bhAshyakAra according to you???
Sudhanshu Shekhar
Mukti and avidyAlesha both can co-exist like tamaH-prakAsha in SDV!!?? What type of mukti it is when this mukta is still having the traces of avidyA ?? can there be a complete eradication of sarpa jnAna and complete (paripUrNa) knowledge of rajju, when one is still having the traces of sarpa jnAna!!??
When you are still talking about pratibandhaka there is no meaning to mukti here…Please share what is your understanding of ‘mukti’ ??
Clearly it is said that mithyAjnAna continues for some time, even when it is sublated. This is what is avidyAlesha. Also, प्रारब्धफलकर्मसंस्कारशेषानुवृत्त्या says the same.
Mukti is jIvanmukti and videhamukti, in short. BhAshyakAra says - यथा च वर्तमाना ब्रह्मविदः आरब्धभोगक्षये कैवल्यमनुभवन्ति — ‘तस्य तावदेव चिरं यावन्न विमोक्ष्येऽथ सम्पत्स्ये’ (छा. उ. ६ । १४ । २) इति श्रुतेः. This kaivalya, experienced after exhaustion of prArabdha, is called videha-mukti. The mukti, which is coupled with prArabdha, is called jIvanmukti.
Again big big nomenclature to avidyA shakti!! Which is ultimately concluded as Kalpita and adhyArOpita.
Anyway as I said above when you are talking about pratibaNdhaka you cannot talk about jeevamukti. Very sanctity of ‘mukti’ pada will be lost when there is an iota of pratibandhaka / avidyAlesha.
Just find out in later vyAkhyAna-s it must have been said. And in kleshApahAriNi this type of non-sense stand has been completely refuted by Sri SSS.
Brahmaiva hi muktyAvasthA, na-cha brahmaNOnekAkArayOgOsti clarifies bhAshyakAra in sUtra bhAshya. The difference you are talking about between sadyOmukta and jeevanmukta is quite untenable considering the fact that sashareeratvasya mithyAjnAnanimittatvAt.
By the way in SDV and ajAtavAda different types of mukti-s advocated by bhAshyakAra according to you???
SREENATH N
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
- Just sharing my thoughts on jnAni’s characteristics. Whenever we talk about jnAni’s paramArtha jnAna we are not talking about his mere intellectual understanding of it like any other objective science knowledge. It is his svarUpa jnAna which is trikAla abAdhita and through which he realized that he was / is / always be nitya, Shuddha, buddha, mukta paripUrNa svarUpa and he is neither kartru nor bhOktru at any point of time. With this backdrop would like to share my thoughts:
I think a Jnani should be able to be in Jeevan Mukti state under every situation but still might need some effort.
- Effort means he is still under the influence of his dehAtma buddhi, identifying himself with his antaHkaraNa and not free from the feeling that he is the doer (kartru) enjoyer (bhOktru).
If sense of duty is present then this effort and time window may be large.
- Again sense of duty (kartavya) means he is, like any other ajnAni imprisoned in his own BMI ( upAdhi).
I guess Brahma Jnanam doesn't mean an immediate right response under all situation.
- But the phala of brahma jnAna is : bhidyate hrudagrantiH chidyante sarvasaMshayAH, ksheeyante chAsya karmANi tasmin drushte parAvare. He ( the paramArtha jnAni) transcends all the situations and his drushti is called samyaK drushti or sama drushti. (geeta -sthita prajna).
Its a potency in knowledge which when applied manifests the right way, by consuming time and effort.
- I heard this type of statements somewhere, but effort and responses are time consuming in that whatever little time gap due to rush of blood he may like us commit any heinous act and might succumb to the karma baNdhana again…but Advaita says a paramArtha jnAni never ever gets any vipareeta pratyaya.
Or the settling time for this potency in the manifested domain will depend on the situation.
- Again his paramArtha jnAna will not be influenced by the situation that he is going to face during post period of jnAna. Just to convey the jnAni’s status we can talk about his pre and post jnAna period but his realization would fetch him the nishchita jnAna that he was / is / never will be kartru nor bhOktru. The very fruit of this type of paramArtha jnAna is sarvAnartha nivrutti, sarva purushArtha prApti.
V Subrahmanian
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SREENATH N
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