Can We Break Free from Karma? Understand Cause, Effect & Choice | Ep 07 of Exploring Sanatana Dharma
V Subrahmanian
Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
Why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa if karma is fair? Can Sadhana actually change your destiny? Is doing good enough ? & more from this Must Watch Episode
Ø I don’t know what is there in this link/talk. But I am sure these talks can be possible only in the realm of lower level of reality of Advaita i.e. SDV wherein there is a provision for talking about kartru, karma, karma phala, karma phala dAta, dharma etc. to the maNda and Madhyama adhikAri who cannot elevate himself to the ‘all mind game’ 😊 which are all needs to be discarded at the later stage i.e. at the higher level of reality i.e DSV where all these concepts are just mental creation of the conditioned soul!! Ishwaraanugraha, Ishwara as karmAdhyaksha, sAdhaka, sAdhakArnugraha, krama mukti etc. etc. is a big phantom theory in this superior level of reality 😊
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
V Subrahmanian
उपलम्भात्समाचारादस्तिवस्तुत्ववादिनाम् ।
जातिस्तु देशिता बुद्धैरजातेस्त्रसतां सदा ॥ ४२ ॥
जातिदोषा न सेत्स्यन्ति दोषोऽप्यल्पो भविष्यति ॥ ४३ ॥
उपलम्भात्समाचारादस्ति वस्तु तथोच्यते ॥ ४४ ॥
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
The shAstra has devised varnasrama, and all that is required for sadhana, with a view to help those who are not yet risen to the level of appreciating ajAti - that is no-creation.
- Yes, `but nothing is going to disappear and nothing is going to lose its practicality post jnAna. chAtur varNyam maya srushtaM guNa karma vibhAgashaH says lord, he does this as per pUrva kalpa dues and obligations. There is no entry for jeeva srushti here in this Ishwara srushti. The apavAda drushti does not negate the existence of these varNa-s but jnAni would have the sama drushti in these vagaries of world. What is adhyArOpita will be negated and jnAni see the ekatvaM behind anekatvaM. vidyA Vinaya saMpanne, braHmaNe gavi hastini..verse too shows that there is continuation of variety but with ekatva jnAna. And this Ishwara srushti is required and must to realize that brahman is ultimately prajnAna ghana and nirvishesha.
When they come to that level, it is not that they will discard all that, but will appreciate that this is what has brought them to that higher level.
Ø And in that realization he realizes that he is anna, annaada and shloka karta.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
--
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Akilesh Ayyar
praNAms
Hare Krishna
The shAstra has devised varnasrama, and all that is required for sadhana, with a view to help those who are not yet risen to the level of appreciating ajAti - that is no-creation.
- Yes, `but nothing is going to disappear and nothing is going to lose its practicality post jnAna. chAtur varNyam maya srushtaM guNa karma vibhAgashaH says lord, he does this as per pUrva kalpa dues and obligations. There is no entry for jeeva srushti here in this Ishwara srushti. The apavAda drushti does not negate the existence of these varNa-s but jnAni would have the sama drushti in these vagaries of world. What is adhyArOpita will be negated and jnAni see the ekatvaM behind anekatvaM. vidyA Vinaya saMpanne, braHmaNe gavi hastini..verse too shows that there is continuation of variety but with ekatva jnAna. And this Ishwara srushti is required and must to realize that brahman is ultimately prajnAna ghana and nirvishesha.
When they come to that level, it is not that they will discard all that, but will appreciate that this is what has brought them to that higher level.
Ø And in that realization he realizes that he is anna, annaada and shloka karta.
--
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
Nothing disappears, true. How can something disappear which cannot be said to have appeared?
- There is Ishwara srushti, there is vyAvahArika jagat and it has its own practical validity which we cannot deny it. Why shankara had come back to do the last rights of his mother?? Why this obligation / duty for the brahma jnAni like bhagavatpAda, if nothing is happened anywhere and everything is just illusion?? It is bhAshyakAra who is saying this that ishwara who does this vishama srushti only in accordance with some requirements. What are those requirements? The dharma and adharma of the jeeva-s. Hence this jagat is called karma bhUmi as well as bhOga bhUmi.
Practicality? For whom? Has there ever been such a thing?
Ø Yes, that is the reason why we both are talking about it 😊
Akilesh Ayyar
praNAms
Hare Krishna
Nothing disappears, true. How can something disappear which cannot be said to have appeared?
- There is Ishwara srushti, there is vyAvahArika jagat and it has its own practical validity which we cannot deny it. Why shankara had come back to do the last rights of his mother?? Why this obligation / duty for the brahma jnAni like bhagavatpAda, if nothing is happened anywhere and everything is just illusion?? It is bhAshyakAra who is saying this that ishwara who does this vishama srushti only in accordance with some requirements. What are those requirements? The dharma and adharma of the jeeva-s. Hence this jagat is called karma bhUmi as well as bhOga bhUmi.
Practicality? For whom? Has there ever been such a thing?
Ø Yes, that is the reason why we both are talking about it 😊
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
If you read in a fictional novel that a character goes back to do his mother’s last rites, has that actually happened? Or is it merely letters on a page?
Ø So according to you shankara janana, shankara sannyasa sveekAra, shankara’s promise to his mother, he’s doing last rights to his mother as per his promise, his PTB etc. are mere fictional novel and shankara is just a fictional character like phantom in comic book 😊
From whose standpoint are we both talking about it?
Ø From you standpoint the whole jagat including bhagavatpAda is mere fictional novel and as per my stand point shankara is an incarnation of Ishwara / shiva, no matter who is right here…but this is what is called practical standpoint of vyAvahArika jagat.
Akilesh Ayyar
praNAms
Hare Krishna
If you read in a fictional novel that a character goes back to do his mother’s last rites, has that actually happened? Or is it merely letters on a page?
Ø So according to you shankara janana, shankara sannyasa sveekAra, shankara’s promise to his mother, he’s doing last rights to his mother as per his promise, his PTB etc. are mere fictional novel and shankara is just a fictional character like phantom in comic book 😊
From whose standpoint are we both talking about it?
Ø From you standpoint the whole jagat including bhagavatpAda is mere fictional novel and as per my stand point shankara is an incarnation of Ishwara / shiva, no matter who is right here…but this is what is called practical standpoint of vyAvahArika jagat.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
--
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
So according to you shankara janana, shankara sannyasa sveekAra, shankara’s promise to his mother, he’s doing last rights to his mother as per his promise, his PTB etc. are mere fictional novel and shankara is just a fictional character like phantom in comic book 😊
Yes, well, almost. The actual truth cannot be stated in words, of course, but this is a reasonable approximation in words. Of course when we say they are fictional, that does not mean they are absolutely non-existent. It means they are fictional — i.e. they do not actually exist in the way that they seem to.
- Yes vyAvahArika jagat is like that…it is not absolutely non-existent but not the way we think / perceive it. What is existing as jagat will be there in one or the other form (vyAkruta / avyAkruta rUpa) as it is brahma / Ishwara shakti. Hence bhAshyakAra says as even brahman as cause does exist in the past, present, and future, even the world of effects does exist in the past, present and future in sUtra bhAshya. But what is fictional imagination (avidyA Kalpita) is seeing the snake in the rope or ghost in the post, or seeing the brahmAbhinna jagat as asaMpUrNa, abrahman. (vide Mundaka shruti). vyAvahArika jagat has its substance and that substance is none other than brahman. bhAshyakAra elsewhere talks about nAma rUpa which are available for us for all practical purposes and clarifies the name and forms are indeed of the nature of the cause, the brahman, because there cannot be an effect coming into existence, if it is not of the nature of the cause. Again the caution here is jagat is dependent on Ishwara but Ishwara in his svarUpa not so!!
Gaudapada says in his karika:
"Just as a circle of fire appears when a firebrand is whirled, so too does consciousness, pervading the elements, appear as the world. When the firebrand stops, the circle disappears…”
- Perhaps you might be talking about the alAta shAnti prakaraNa in kArika, Yes, the moment this firebrand stops, the circle etc. disappears (but it can be noted upAdhi does not vanish in thin air after the dawn of upAdhi rahita svarUpa jnAna) but when the burning stick is in motion, the shape of circular light that is seen is not a different object and it has not come from somewhere else and tagged on to the stick. And it is also the fact that when the stick stops movement, that shape of light does not go away to some other place as if it is temporarily visiting the burning stick. This conclusion is logical because the shape does not have the substance of its own. In the same way, there is no jnAtru and jneya duality that appears in connection with the body. This dvaita is imagined due to ignorance / asarvAtma bhAsva. Therefore, it has been said there Atman is neither antaH prajna nor bahirprajna etc. Just as there is no kAraNa-kArya relation between the stick and the circle of light, there is no cause-effect relation between brahman and the different appearances of kartrutva bhAva (knowership). Here what needs to be noted is circle of light has the substance of firebrand / fire stick.
Yes, and this practical standpoint in the final analysis cannot stand.
- But final stand is NOT something that has to be experienced in vyavahAra abhAva state…bhAshyakAra quite clear here.
It is only a provisional teaching tool.
- Yes in this we should not negate the practical utility of shAstra in general and pramANa -prameya vyavahAra in particular as we are still identifying ourselves as pramAtru 😊And in this teaching school, shankara bhagavatpAda is not mere fictional character but he is Jagadguru, dharma pravartaka, jnAna dAta Ishwara svarUpa.
We cannot have our cake and eat it too. We cannot say all is Brahman and then preserve the world as we know it in the usual common sense.
- Seeing and realizing the true svarUpa of the world is called sarvAtma bhAva or Atmaikatva darshana. bhAshyakAra clarifies the nija-svarUpa of the jagat in Mundaka bhAshya, the Jagat in front appears as something other than brahman for those who have avidyA. This appearance of abrahma pratyaya is avidyAkalpita like the rope-snake. But the Jagat in front is not that. It is brahman alone and there exists nothing apart from brahman.
Kuntimaddi Sadananda
PraNAms
As I understand, for a realized master's BMI (body, mind, and intellect) the sanchita karma gets destroyed.
There will still be prarabda karma that has two components - one due to individual and the other due to the collective. Ramana Maharshi had hand operation and Ramakrishna Paramahamsa had throat problem. The collective praarabda involves the seekers' that log for a realized master for their evolution.
This will continue until the body drops - the BMI each will merge with the totals -virat, hiranya garba and Iswara, respectively.
The statements of Goudapaada and Shakara exists - all at vyaavaharika level only - So is Bhagavat Geeta.
avignyaate pare tatve shaastraadiistu nishpalaa|
vijnaatepi pare tatve shaastraadiistu nishpalaa|| - Viveka chudamani.
Only at the paarmaarthika level - nothing - no thing - exists.
All these discussions, including Geeta, Upanishads, karikas, etc. along with bound jeevas and karmas -valid at the vyaavaharika level - only at the paaramaarthika level there are BMIs also.
As long as we are clear about what reference karika statements and including scriptural statements are valid, there should not be any confusion.
Confusion comes only when we mix the two reference states.
Just my 2c
Hari Om!
Sada
sunil bhattacharjya
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Akilesh Ayyar
praNAms
Hare Krishna
So according to you shankara janana, shankara sannyasa sveekAra, shankara’s promise to his mother, he’s doing last rights to his mother as per his promise, his PTB etc. are mere fictional novel and shankara is just a fictional character like phantom in comic book 😊
Yes, well, almost. The actual truth cannot be stated in words, of course, but this is a reasonable approximation in words. Of course when we say they are fictional, that does not mean they are absolutely non-existent. It means they are fictional — i.e. they do not actually exist in the way that they seem to.
- Yes vyAvahArika jagat is like that…it is not absolutely non-existent but not the way we think / perceive it. What is existing as jagat will be there in one or the other form (vyAkruta / avyAkruta rUpa) as it is brahma / Ishwara shakti. Hence bhAshyakAra says as even brahman as cause does exist in the past, present, and future, even the world of effects does exist in the past, present and future in sUtra bhAshya. But what is fictional imagination (avidyA Kalpita) is seeing the snake in the rope or ghost in the post, or seeing the brahmAbhinna jagat as asaMpUrNa, abrahman. (vide Mundaka shruti). vyAvahArika jagat has its substance and that substance is none other than brahman. bhAshyakAra elsewhere talks about nAma rUpa which are available for us for all practical purposes and clarifies the name and forms are indeed of the nature of the cause, the brahman, because there cannot be an effect coming into existence, if it is not of the nature of the cause. Again the caution here is jagat is dependent on Ishwara but Ishwara in his svarUpa not so!!
Gaudapada says in his karika:
"Just as a circle of fire appears when a firebrand is whirled, so too does consciousness, pervading the elements, appear as the world. When the firebrand stops, the circle disappears…”
- Perhaps you might be talking about the alAta shAnti prakaraNa in kArika, Yes, the moment this firebrand stops, the circle etc. disappears (but it can be noted upAdhi does not vanish in thin air after the dawn of upAdhi rahita svarUpa jnAna) but when the burning stick is in motion, the shape of circular light that is seen is not a different object and it has not come from somewhere else and tagged on to the stick. And it is also the fact that when the stick stops movement, that shape of light does not go away to some other place as if it is temporarily visiting the burning stick. This conclusion is logical because the shape does not have the substance of its own. In the same way, there is no jnAtru and jneya duality that appears in connection with the body. This dvaita is imagined due to ignorance / asarvAtma bhAsva. Therefore, it has been said there Atman is neither antaH prajna nor bahirprajna etc. Just as there is no kAraNa-kArya relation between the stick and the circle of light, there is no cause-effect relation between brahman and the different appearances of kartrutva bhAva (knowership). Here what needs to be noted is circle of light has the substance of firebrand / fire stick.
Yes, and this practical standpoint in the final analysis cannot stand.
- But final stand is NOT something that has to be experienced in vyavahAra abhAva state…bhAshyakAra quite clear here.
It is only a provisional teaching tool.
- Yes in this we should not negate the practical utility of shAstra in general and pramANa -prameya vyavahAra in particular as we are still identifying ourselves as pramAtru 😊And in this teaching school, shankara bhagavatpAda is not mere fictional character but he is Jagadguru, dharma pravartaka, jnAna dAta Ishwara svarUpa.
We cannot have our cake and eat it too. We cannot say all is Brahman and then preserve the world as we know it in the usual common sense.
- Seeing and realizing the true svarUpa of the world is called sarvAtma bhAva or Atmaikatva darshana. bhAshyakAra clarifies the nija-svarUpa of the jagat in Mundaka bhAshya, the Jagat in front appears as something other than brahman for those who have avidyA. This appearance of abrahma pratyaya is avidyAkalpita like the rope-snake. But the Jagat in front is not that. It is brahman alone and there exists nothing apart from brahman.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
--
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