praNAms
Hare Krishna
The perceptible world, the world which we see through our indriya-s is indeed avidyAkalpita, Gandharva nagari, parichinna, asarvaM, abrahmam etc. hence it is called bhrAnti. It is vyAvahArika, upAdhi parimita drushti (the vision limited within sense perception). And there is another drushti i.e. shAstra drushti, pAramArthika drushti which shruti explains to help us to see / realize the world ‘as it is’ (not limited to only aparipUrNa upAdhi parichinna drushti) when shastra takes this perspective it says : idaM sarvaM yadayamAtma, brahmaivedaM amrutaM purastAt and this is what jnAni’s sarvAtmabhAva. Without knowing this difference if we often announce blanket statement like: prapancha is bhrAnti / abhAva / jeeva mAnasa pratyaya / manOkalpita etc. if we are definitely on par with vijnAnavAdins, who advocates ONLY ‘mind game’ 😊
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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praNAms
Hare Krishna
The Advaitin will not make the mistake that you apprehend. For, the concept of Brahman being the adhishthana of the appearing jagat is well known to us.
Ø H, the brahman, is not ONLY substratum of the ‘nAma rUpa jagat he_is_the abhinna nimittOpadAna kAraNa of the jagat. With this perspective only Advaita has been contrasted from that of Buddhists. Buddhists deny the reality of external objects. For example vijnAnavAdin says object what we perceive outside (external objects) is nothing but idea ( manOkalpita or manOratha which you quoted from bhagavata) since as per them, the’ idea’ of an external object and ‘perception’ of the same through indriya-s both are experienced together. But as per shankara Advaita, jagat, ‘as it is’ not mere manOkalpita or jeeva mAnasa pratyaya, it is from parameshwara, it is parameshwara srushti, it is vedAnta maryAda to adore parameshwara is srushtikarta, so jagat in its own sphere, has its own adhishtAnam, upAdaanaM and nimittaM and that is nothing but parabrahman. And shankara elsewhere in sUtra bhAshya exquisitely emphasizes that conceivability or inconceivability of the existence of a thing to be determined by the valid means of knowledge. Here pramANa or valid means of knowledge is shAstra and that shAstra saying brahman is antaryAmi, upAdAna and nimitta kAraNa for the jagat ‘as it is’ and jeeva’s perception of this ‘as it is’ jagat’ is adhyasta like looking at the jagat as asarvaM, vicchinnaM, asarvaM etc. whereas, in reality jagat is not distinct and does not exist ‘apart from brahman. But what you implied by quoting bhAgavat is jagat is avidyAkalpita and subsequently when questioned this Buddhist like perspective you added NO NO brahman is the adhishtAnaM/kUtastha of this avidyAkalpita jagat!! It is not so, I have quoted what Sri SSS said about it and how he contrasted this shruti pramANita tattvaM of jagat viz a viz manOkalpita jagat of vijnAnavAdin. For that you said Sri SSS is contradicting and deviating himself etc. So, kindly stop quoting Sri SSS in support of your views.
Ø And now the very important question is, can the brahman be the substratum of jeeva parikalpita jagat or illusionary jagat?? Brahman as per shAstra pramANa can be adhishtAnaM/ kUtasthaM, upAdAnaM, nimittaM of the nAmarUpAtmaka jagat he cannot be the adhishtAnaM to the Kalpita jagat of jeeva which he creates on his own due to avidyA. For the Kalpita sarpa adhishtAnaM is nirmita rajju and nirmita rajju is NOT Kalpita nAma rUpa of jeeva because for the nirmita rajju parabrahman is the abhinna nimittOpadAna kAraNa. This has been proved by kArya-kAraNa ananyatvaM. Whereas Kalpita sarpa is kevala jeeva mAnasa pratyaya purely avidyAkalpita ‘adhyasta’ on rajju. So your contention that brahman is the adhishtAnaM for the jeeva Kalpita jagat does not find any place in shruti, yukti and anubhava. So jeeva Kalpita sarpa is due to jeeva’s avidyA /adhyAsa for that stage is brahma nirmita rajju. And rajju is rajju only when jeeva perceiving it as sarpa.
Ø And finally, as I have been observing many times, those who give the existence to bhAvarUpa avidyA in all the three states, comfortably saying jagat is Kalpita and abhAva, those who comfortably pasting the avidyAlesha and prArabdha karma to even paramArtha jnAni saying that jagat which is the stage for all this is manOvikAra….really strange !!
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praNAms
Hare Krishna
We have to see in the first chapter arjuna’s vishAda, his rAga-dvesha, his shOka-mOha, his perception of the battle field, relationship etc. with this backdrop look at the Lord’s advice in the second chapter to Arjuna then only we will come to know what is meant here by indriya janita perception i.e. through shrotra, tvak, Chakshu etc. which is non existent. If the lord meant here battle filed itself non-existent, if the Lord meant what is there on the battle field is non existent like mirage water, he would have not asked and encouraged arjuna to go-ahead with the war. See how Lord puts his effort to convince arjuna to continue with the battle ( verse 31-38 in the 2nd Chapter itself). So out of context quotes like this do not help to prove anything here. Here jeeva (arjuna) parikalpita ‘srushti’ like shOka-mOha, vishAda, rAga-dvesha etc. (due to his conditioned adjuncts) that is what denying by Lord and asking him to follow his kshAtra dharma taking everything in tranquility. If everything is non-existent where is the question of following his kshAtradharma?? Again it is quite evident that this quote is not at all contextually relevant to prove the existence of jagat or otherwise. It is better to try something else rather than quoting geeta which is very practical to prove the events on kurushetra battle field 😊
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
From: adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [advaitin] The perceptible world is not absolutely real - Srimad Bhagavatam
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praNAms
Hare Krishna
By the way, the verse 2-16, nAsatO vidyate bhAvO nAbhAvO vidyate sataH is very potential quote to prove that if the bhAvarUpa avidyA is really existing thing as mUlavidyAvAdins advocates, it cannot be eradicated by any means or any quantity of jnana as jnana does not have the power to create anything new nor it has the power of annihilating anything that is already positively ‘existing’. 😊
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
From: adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of V Subrahmanian
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 4:08 PM
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Subject: Re: [advaitin] The perceptible world is not absolutely real - Srimad Bhagavatam
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न हि शीतोष्णादि सकारणं प्रमाणैर्निरूप्यमाणं वस्तुसद्भवति । In BGB 2.16: Shankara says: the dualities (the whole world) that is perceptible to pramana-s (shrotra, tvak, chakshus, etc.) is non-existent.
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praNAms Sri Rishi prabhuji
Hare Krishna
Even I too have this book of Sri Harshanandaji maharaj. Now I request you to elaborate or share your understanding what Swamiji meant when he said ‘after jnana jagat is cease to exist’.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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Pranam praveen ji,is my reference correct ?g%40mail.gmail.com.
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सर्वतःपाणिपादं तत्सर्वतोक्षिशिरोमुखम् ।
सर्वतःश्रुतिमल्लोके सर्वमावृत्य तिष्ठति ॥ १३
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praNAms Sri Rishi prabhuji
Hare Krishna
Kindly don’t think otherwise for asking that question. I am not even a student of Advaita in any serious way 😊 Why I asked that curious question is, what exactly does it mean when world is ceases to exist after svarUpa jnana?? Is the jnana destroys the already existing thing?? Or this jnana would fetch us the ‘correct’ knowledge of an ‘existing thing’?? As you know shankara says jnana reveals the correct knowledge of an existing thing. The correct knowledge of existing thing here in this case / context is the svarUpa / adhishtaanam of the perceived world. In other words, the essential identity of the universe with brahman. Shankara in ArambharaNAdhikaraNa bhAshya explicitly explains the universe as an effect is non-different from the cause or brahman and essentially one with brahman. Shankara gives some empirical examples like ghatAkAsha, patAkAsha, mrutagrushNa etc. and declares that all this universe of manifold things such as the experienced and the experiencers donot exist apart from brahman. So here ceasing or ending of the existing jagat not to be taken in literal sense (as you have correctly pointed out) but what that ceases is our limited vision or qualified perception of jagat that ceases to exist. And with the bhuma drushti / samyak drushti / sarvAtmabhAva what he realizes is bhOktA, bhogyaM preritAraM cha matvA sarvaM prOktaM trividhaM brahma me tat ( sUtra bhAshya) here the triple distinction of the experiencer, experienced and the ruler is declared to be taught as being the nature of ONE brahman.
This is just ramblings from another not full time student of Vedanta. You are well come to disagree with it.
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praNAms Sri Akhilesh Ayyar prabhuji
Hare Krishna
Bhagavan also asks Arjuna to fight even though at the end in Ch 18:59-61 Bhagavan says “it doesn’t matter what you decide, ishwara will whirl you around like a machine and you will fight, like it or not, compelled by your nature.”
The whole thing from top to bottom is theater. If the battlefield is a mirage (and it is), then so too is the entire discourse to Arjuna and the attempted persuasion of him to fight also part of that mirage. The mirage includes Arjuna-considered-as-an-individual-person…
Ø This is clear digression from what is being discussed here, yes everything here is just like mirage and that includes Lord as jnAni / Ishwara who is giving the teaching to Arjuna. So adhyArOpa on brahman not only battle field/arjuna as ajnAni etc. but ALSO Krishna as jnAni / Lord and his upadesha as well because of the simple fact that there is no jnana – ajnAna vyavahAra in the paramArthika. The arjuna vishAda being talked here is ofcourse from the vyAvahArika adhyArOpita drushti only so is geetOpadesha from Lord 😊 And adhyArOpa does not mean there is something called ‘A’ existing separately at some place and on that we super impose something else called ‘B’ (which is not ‘A’) to know ‘A’ and later on, after the purpose is served, we remove (apavAda) that ‘B’ thing (again not ‘A’ but as a separate thing called ‘B’) to know ‘A’!!?? This cannot be possible since as we know there is nothing exist apart from A and that A is aprameya. What is adhyArOpita here is jeeva’s parichinnatvaM, asarvatvaM, abrahmatvaM etc. due to avidyA and what shAstra apavAda is what is there is nothing but braman, sarvaM and paripUrNam. See br.up. bhA. 1.4.10 for example : tathA ihApi abrahmatvaM asarvatvaM cha avidyAkrutameva nivartyatAM brahma vidyayA na tu paramArthikaM vastu kartuM nivartayituM va arhati brahma vidyA. Arujna drushti here is parichinna drushti, asarvAtma / abrahma drushti / avidyA timira drushti, lord highlight this and gives upadesha what is there in reality and what needs to be done as a kshatriya. And here please note even taken this whole scenario from adhyArOpa apavAda drushti, it does not prove that whole kurukshtra battle filed and lord etc. are mere Arjuna’s Kalpana but it is the contention of some who says everything is jeeva maanasa pratyaya which is as good as Buddhists vijnAnavAda. Yes, here Arjuna’s mithAdrushti does not denied but it is the subjective problem due to which he perceived the whole battle filed wrongly!! Lord through his upadesha eradicated this misconception of Arjuna.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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praNAms Sri Akhilesh Ayyar prabhuji
Hare Krishna
The point is basically that the moment you say the word “jagat” you are already in vyavahara.
Only when you have the knower-known-knowing trio do you have the idea of a world. A world implies distinction. To say that brahamn is the substrate of this world, therefore, is a vyavahara teaching.
Ø Yes prabhuji you are right. Shankara in geeta bhAshya (2-69) very clearly says the same thing : all pramANa-s are such only upto the realization of Atman and subsequent to this there can be no talk of the means and objects of knowledge. The untya pramANa takes away the very nature of being a pramAtru and at the same time invalidates itself as a means just as a means of knowledge gained in a svapna does on one’s jagrat. bhOktru, bhOgya, bhOjya vyavahAra sublimated in paramArtha and what jnAni realizes is he is anna, annaada and shlokakarta. pramAtru-pramANa-prameya vyavahAra adyArOpita in brahman and brahman is sarva vyavahArAteeta.
When jagat is seen for what it really is, it cannot be differentiated as “jagat” anymore.
Does it then still exist? Does it not exist? These questions are themselves products of avidya only — thus why Sankara calls maya neither real nor unreal.
Ø Yes, this is one of the aspects of mAya, some times mAya addressed as brahmAnanya, sometimes addressed as Ishwara shakti, some times addressed as concocted by avidyA and sometimes it is also addressed as avyAkruta beeja shakti for the nAmarUpAtmaka jagat. So, as per the context we have to deduce the meaning of the term called ‘mAya’.
The idea behind Bhagavan’s teaching of Arjuna is to admit as a provisional premise the so-called existence for the so-called jagat… in order first to contrast it with its substrate and cause. But then, by showing their identity… to destroy that very idea.
Ø As you know the geeta is fine blend of jnana, bhakti, karma and raja yoga and ultimately teaching Atman’s ekamevAdviteeya tattvam.
This does not mean that “the world” is in truth Arjuna’s idea alone.
It means “the world as Arjuna imagines it” is Arjuna’s idea alone.
The world in truth is non-different from Brahman — but that non-difference means that it cannot even be spoken of as world!
Ø Yes, as said above same applies to jeeva. Both statements are there to show the non-difference between jeeva-brahman and jagat-brahma. Jeevo brahmaiva na apara, AtmaivedaM sarvaM, vAsudevaH sarvaM, brahmaivedaM vishvaM. When we know there exists neither jeeva nor jagat apart from brahman and at the same time brahman is neither jeeva nor jagat the purpose of shruti siddhAnta served 😊