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Namaskaram,
Thank you for sharing this "mahavakya".This brings up the following question in my mind: what makes a vakya a "mahavakya"?
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Then I wonder why Sri Mani Dravid Shastri calls the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad quote above a mahavakya.
I was guessing that perhaps a mahavakya is description by meditating on which a person can realize the Truth. Perhaps by meditating on the vijnanamaya jiva, i.e., the consciousness as ajaa (unborn and therefore eternal) one realizes the Truth and this is why the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad quote is a mahavakya?
Namaste,On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 4:34 PM Vinodh <vinod...@gmail.com> wrote:Then I wonder why Sri Mani Dravid Shastri calls the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad quote above a mahavakya.Because the mantra is स वा एष महानज आत्मा योऽयं विज्ञानमयः is essentially so'yam - ie conveying the identity of sah with ayam. sah (He), mahAn (the Great), ajah (Unborn one), which refers to Brahman, is the same as ayam vijnAnamayah, this conscious jIva.
I was guessing that perhaps a mahavakya is description by meditating on which a person can realize the Truth. Perhaps by meditating on the vijnanamaya jiva, i.e., the consciousness as ajaa (unborn and therefore eternal) one realizes the Truth and this is why the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad quote is a mahavakya?No meditation is necessary, knowing the truth that jIva is Brahman is sufficient. A mahAvAkya does not convey a meditation, it simply reveals that the jIva is Brahman.
RegardsVenkatraghavan
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In the Brahmasutra Bhashya 4.3.43
If meditation is taken to mean “upasana” (imagining one thing to be like another for the purpose of worshipping), it is right that a mahavakya conveys no such upasana. This is because a mahavakya is simply conveying a fact, and is not conveying any action (meditation is also an action).However, by “meditation” here, I mean the mananam and nididhyasanam of the statement (that is, a thorough analysis and reflection on the statement) that reveals that jiva is Brahman until one attains firm conviction of this Truth. Why is this required?
By knowing a mahavakya, do we all immediately “know” the truth that jiva is Brahman? Clearly, we all seem to “know” that jiva is Brahman because we have heard it, but do we still not fall under the illusion of maya?
So what does it really mean to “know” the truth? Is it the same as “knowing” the mahavakya as an object of knowledge (like we know “this is a blue lotus”)? Clearly not, because if so, by simply “hearing” this statement one “knows” it, but this does not seem to liberate one from the spell of maya.
Therefore one has to go beyond “knowing” the truth, wherein there is still the difference of knower and known, to having the firm conviction in the truth, wherein all subject-object differences disappear completely, at which point the one knowing and the one known are no longer seen as separate. At this point, one no longer knows the truth, but rather one is identical with the truth.
--Of course, for those whose minds have become purified through karma and bhakti, just hearing (i.e., knowing) the mahavakya (sravanam) immediately results in such a realization and all subject-object differences disappear. However, for those of us who have not attained that level of purity of mind yet, a meditation (read mananam + nididhyasanam, i.e., repeated analysis and reflection) on the statements conveying the truth is still necessary. In a way, this sort of meditation on the mahavakya is also just purifying the mind until the truth of the mahavakya shines through clearly.--RegardsVenkatraghavan
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praNAms
Hare Krishna
If meditation is taken to mean “upasana” (imagining one thing to be like another for the purpose of worshipping), it is right that a mahavakya conveys no such upasana. This is because a mahavakya is simply conveying a fact, and is not conveying any action (meditation is also an action).
Ø Yes, meditation is purusha taNtra, kartuM, akartum anyathAkartum shakyaM says sUtra bhAshya. dhyAna is vidhi para as per yOga whereas in Advaita vedAnta dhyAna is not something that is explained in ashtanga yOga and not vidhipara but jnana para. But bhAmati relates dhAraNa-dhyAna-samAdhi with Advaita-s sAdhana sharavaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsana and darshana, darshana as per bhAmati is samAdhi which is experienced in an inert state of mind.
However, by “meditation” here, I mean the mananam and nididhyasanam of the statement (that is, a thorough analysis and reflection on the statement) that reveals that jiva is Brahman until one attains firm conviction of this Truth. Why is this required?
Ø In bruhadAraNyaka bhAshya AchArya explains what is shravaNAdi sAdhana, shravaNaM is listening and understanding the shruti vAkya, mananaM is contemplating the shruti vAkya in line with shrutyanugraheeta tarka ( mantavyaH tarkataH) and nidhidhyAsanaM means synching the contemplating vichAra till it is realized. For some (uttamOttama adhikAri), as you mentioned below, this realization happens just by shravaNaM without taking the subsequent steps i.e. mananM and nidhidhyAsanaM. But here point to be noted is here shravaNAdi sAdhana not just on traditionally believed mahAvAkya/s but vedAnta vAkya / shabda / shruti vAkya in general.
By knowing a mahavakya, do we all immediately “know” the truth that jiva is Brahman? Clearly, we all seem to “know” that jiva is Brahman because we have heard it, but do we still not fall under the illusion of maya? So what does it really mean to “know” the truth? Is it the same as “knowing” the mahavakya as an object of knowledge (like we know “this is a blue lotus”)? Clearly not, because if so, by simply “hearing” this statement one “knows” it, but this does not seem to liberate one from the spell of maya.
Ø Yes that is right, it is just an additional knowledge included in data base in our mind and nothing more or less than that. My teacher used to say, one shishya after being convinced that he is indeed brahman, asked his guru : OK OK, now I am completely convinced that I am brahman, so what’s next !!?? 😊 this sort of mere intellectual understanding that I am brahman is nothing but another face of avidyA.
Therefore one has to go beyond “knowing” the truth, wherein there is still the difference of knower and known, to having the firm conviction in the truth, wherein all subject-object differences disappear completely, at which point the one knowing and the one known are no longer seen as separate. At this point, one no longer knows the truth, but rather one is identical with the truth.
Ø Hence there is lot of difference in mere ‘knowing’ and ‘realizing’. So the question is till what time we have to do the shravaNAdi sAdhana or how many times we have to do nidhyAsanaM to elevate ourselves from mere knowing to realizing?? Shankara replies no need to ask this question, it is not a sane question if someone asks till what time we have to cook raw rice to eat it. So till what time sAdhana till we don’t get mundane doubts like this 😊 bhidhyate hrudaya granthiH, chidyante sarva saMshayAH says mundaka.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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It is also worth noting that shravanadi are called "sadhana" merely out of limitation of language and from the point of view of an ajnani. This is because the Truth, which is eternally present, need not need be attained as a siddhi after performing some action.
praNAms Sri Vinod prabhuji
Hare Krishna
Yes, jnApakaM hi shAstraM na tu kArakaM, shAstra would teach us only bhUta vastu ( that which is already exists) and it does not create anything new. shravaNAdi sAdhana is ofcourse for the ajnAni, who still see the pramAtru, pramANa and prameya triputi rvyavahAra. For him the direct means is shravaNAdi sAdhana says bhAshyakAra : sAkshAdeva cha kAraNatvAt shravaNamanananidhidhyAsanAnAm because shruti itself says AtmA vA Are drashtavyaH shOtavyaH, maNtavyO nidhidhyAsitavyaH.
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However, by “meditation” here, I mean the mananam and nididhyasanam of the statement (that is, a thorough analysis and reflection on the statement) that reveals that jiva is Brahman until one attains firm conviction of this Truth. Why is this required?
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Mananam and nidhidhyAsanam (in the context of Advaita vedAnta) are of the nature of vastu-tantra manovRttis - being pramANa-based and serve only to highlight the Gyaanam itself. They are surely different from upAsana (be it even nirguNa upAsana) which is puruSha-tantra.
For example mithyAtva niscaya through the yukti using the prasiddha hetu would be part of mananam. Does such mananam constitute karma/upAsana? It would appear not. The yuktis used in mananam only give rise to "seeing rightly" and removing false notions. All such pramANa vyApAra is not really karma, don't you think? I do understand the commonality of the result being pratibandhaka nivRtti for both karma/upAsanam and mananam/nidhidhyAsanam. Yet I understand the latter to be not karma. Is that tenable?
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Would you also agree that mahavakya shravana also falls under the same category of manana and nididhyasana?
If you do see it differently, how do you explain the difference given that shravana also requires an action from the purusha just like the other two do?
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praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
Hare Krishna
the hearing of the texts (sravana), thinking about their meaning (manana), and meditation on them (nididhyasana). This leads to intuition."
and
"Mere hearing does not result in full comprehension of realization of Brahman."
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praNAms
Hare Krishna
I am not able to understand this googlegroups.com vyavahAra 😊 I have received Sri Vinod prabhuji’s mail in my inbox whereas not received the mail of Sri Venkataraaghavan prabhuji !!! Sri Venkat prabhuji have you written your mail addressing Advaita-L group or Advaitin group?? I think I am not getting any mails from Advaita-L group.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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Subject: Re: [advaitin] Yet another Mahavakya in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
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Namaste Anand ji,
That is a wonderful quote, not sure where it occurs! Yes it is possible for
one to recollect what one heard in shravaNam and that recollection leads to
the cognition of Brahman, provided the obstacles that prevented the rise of
brahmajnAna in the past have subsequently been overcome in the intervening
period. We do hear stories of Mahatmas who ostensibly attain brahmajnAna
without any shAstra abhyAsa in the present birth, simply on account of some
samskAra triggering the recollection of the mahAvAkya which leads to jnAna
the present.
However, moksha is not an event that occurs due to jnAna though, it is ones
nature. The vRtti simply removes the veil that obscures it.
Regards,
Venkatraghavan
Namaste.Reg << Yes it is possible for
one to recollect what one heard in shravaNam and that recollection leads to
the cognition of Brahman, provided the obstacles that prevented the rise of
brahmajnAna in the past have subsequently been overcome in the intervening
period >>,Can you please cite any Bhashya reference for this, that recollection also can lead to cognition of Brahman. My understanding is that this is not admitted by Sri Bhagavatpada. Realization is coterminus with MahAvAkya shravaNam as per Sri Bhagavatpada.Regards
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Vidyāraṇya narrates the story of the tenth man in Pañcadaśī 7.23-7.27. In verse 7.33, Vidyāraṇya mentions these seven stages and then follows a discussion on them
अज्ञानमावृतिस्तद्वद्विक्षेपश्च परोक्षधीः ।
अपरोक्षमतिः शोकमोक्षस्तृप्तिर्निरङ्कुशा ||३३||
ajñānamāvṛtistadvadvikṣepaśca parokṣadhīḥ ।
aparokṣamatiḥ śokamokṣastṛptirniraṅkuśā ||33||
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Namaste Raghavji, Bhaskarji, Venkatraghavanji,Very interesting points Raghavji!Three points in this regard:1) Swami Dayanandaji used to give an example of a person who is told a joke by his friend. He doesn't get it at that point, and the one who told the joke is a bit disappointed. But a few days later, when showering with water falling on his bald head, that person recalls the joke. Perhaps the warm water falling on his head improved the blood circulation or perhaps due to some other reason reason which we cannot pinpoint, his joke understanding pratibandha was removed. He suddenly got the meaning of the joke and has a hearty laugh! Thus the same words have a delayed result.2) With regards to vAmadeva, vichAra sAgara discusses this point in detail (please see reference below from Topic 467). sAdhu nishchaladAsa says that generally an action produces an adRRiShTa karma phala which is experienced in entirety in some future janma and exhausted completely in that janma itself. However, there are certain rare cases in which a single action produce a karma phalam which cannot be exhausted in one janma but requires multiple janmas to exhaust. Now,let us consider the case of a sAdhaka who has such a karma phala fructifying which has to yield its result over multiple janmas. In that case, even if such a sAdhaka is qualified and does shravaNam, such a karma phala which mandates more janmas will act like a pratibandha. After shravaNam, the shAstra janya aham brahmAsmi vRRitti may be there, but that vRRitti will not act like a GYAna vRRitti (as in case of bharcChu kathA example, bharcChu directly saw his minister but could not accept that it was his minister due to some pratibandha). Hence, that vRRitti is unable to destroy aGYAnam. This will continue to be the case until the last janma mandated by that special karma phala is taken. When the last janma is taken, the special karma phala is totally exhausted, the pratibandha is automatically removed. The same vRRitti which was incapable of acting as an aGYAnA nAshaka GYAna vRRitti now suddenly acts like a GYAna vRRitti and destroys aGYAnam. The job is done!यत्रैकेन कर्मणा अनेक शरीराणि जायन्ते, तत्र चरम एव जन्मनि ज्ञानम् जायेत, न तु पूर्वतन शरीरेषु ।अनेक शरीरप्रदप्रारब्धस्य तत्र प्रतिबन्धकत्वात् । यथा (१) विषयासक्ति: (२)बुद्धिमान्द्यम् (३) भेदवादिद्वैवैतशास्त्रवचनविश्वासश्चेत्यादिर्ज्ञानप्रतिबन्ध: तथाविलक्षणप्रारब्धमपि ज्ञानप्रतिबन्धकमेव । प्रतिबन्धसद्भावदशायां क्रियमाणम् ज्ञानसाधनीभूतंश्रवणमननादिकं सर्वं प्रतिबन्धकनिवृत्त्यनन्तरमेव चिरकालप्रतिबद्धमपि प्रथमजन्मकृतमेव सत्शरीरान्तरे ज्ञानमुत्पादयति । तद्यथा "वामदेवस्य किलर्षे: पूर्वजन्मनि कृतश्रवणदेरपिप्रारब्धकर्ममफलभूतेनैकेनेव शरीरेण शेषभूतेन बलवता प्रतिबन्धात् न ज्ञानम् उद्भूतम् श्रवणद्यनुष्ठायदशायमेव । शरीरपातेन शरीरानन्तरप्राप्तिसमये पूर्ववजन्ममकृतमेव श्रवणदिकम् तस्यगर्भ एव ज्ञानम् जनयति स्म ।3) panchadashIkAra in Chapter 9 extensively discusses this situation where a student has done shravaNam, has parokSha GYAnam but doesn't yet have aparokSha GYAnam. He can come to the aham brahmAsmi vRRitti with the help of the mahAvakyam but it doesn't destroy his aGYAnam. There is presence of some pratibandha tha blocks the vRRitti from acting like a GYAna vRRitti. VidyAraNya suggests nirguNa brahma upAsana. The nirguNa bramha upAsanadoesn't directly contribute to rise of GYAnam. However, the puNyam that the upAsana generates counters the pratibandha. When the pratibandha is removed, the same vRRitti becomes a GYAna vRRitti and destroys aGYAnam.Regards,--SatyanOn Thursday, October 28, 2021, 01:33:53 PM GMT+5:30, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
There do not seem to be any references to say that shravaNam has to be done
afresh once again after manana and nidhidhyAsanam have already removed the
samshaya and viparyaya obstacles.
Also if it is insisted that hearing the words tat tvam asi from the outside
is required once again after SMN, then the samskAra can be used to utter
the words aloud by oneself because tAtparya niscaya is already present.
Once tAtparya niscaya is there, it does not seem logical to assert the need
for once again repeating the entire long shravaNa process over again.
In laukika cases, samskAra is not regarded as a independent pramANa, but
the samskAra of shravaNam has the capacity to produce vRttis which then
remove the avidyA. It is shravaNam alone that is producing the GYAnam even
in laukika cases.
Even in the initial shravaNam, the use of air waves and the indriya golakas
for receiving the vAkyas is permitted. Also there is a time delay between
the utterance by the Guru and hearing by the student. These physical
transmission mechanisms (avAntara kAraNas) do not alter the fact that it is
shravaNam alone that is the cause of the GYAnam.
Laukika examples are plentiful. A lecture on physics or maths by the
Acharya is not understood when initially heard but later by dwelling on
what is heard, the laukika GYAnam of physics or some mathematical theorem
does indeed arise in the case of manda madhyama students.
In such laukika cases of Gyaanam arising after a time delay, the samskAra
is accepted as facilitating the pramANa giving rise to Gyaanam. Even in
such "delayed" Gyaanam the samskAra is not the pramANam but it does play a
facilitative role.
It can be asserted that same holds for GYAnam produced by shravaNam
facilitated by its samskAra.
Even in the case of the immediate arising of GYAnam upon shravaNam , as
indicated in brahma sUtra bhAShya (1.3.28) on shabda pramANam in
devatAdhikaranam, the samskAra of the varNas of the words of 'tat' and
'tvam' produces the vAkya GYAnam (upon 'asi' being heard) and without the
facilitative role played by the samskAra of the chronologically earlier
words tat and tvam whose sounds are no longer present, the Gyaanam does not
arise. Therefore the mere mediacy of samskAra in the shravaNam process does
not render a given GYAnam as "not due to shravaNam".
Om
Namaste Vinodhji,
Happy to know that we are on the same page!
Please see dakShiNAmurti Stotram
बाल्यादिष्वपि जाग्रदादिषु तथा सर्वास्ववस्थास्वपि
व्यावृत्तास्वनुवर्तमानमहमित्यन्तः स्फुरन्तं सदा ।
स्वात्मानं प्रकटीकरोति भजतां यो मुद्रयाभद्रया
तस्मै श्रीगुरुमूर्तये नम इदं श्रीदक्षिणामूर्तये ॥७॥
This verse refers to the “I am” that continues unchanged in all states from childhood, to youth, to old age, in waking, dream, deep sleep and I own up all those states as mine by saying I was a child, the same I now am young, I am old, I dreamt, I slept, I am now awake. The AtmA persists in all these states and that is what leads to my experience of “continuity“ across these states that have nothing else in common. The continuing “I am” is called “aham iti antaH sphuraNam”. Please see the meaning of this verse as explained by Swami Paramarthanandaji here from page 192
https://arshaavinash.in/index.php/download/dakshinamurthy-stotram-by-swami-paramarthananda/
Can also be called AtmAnubhavaH as explained in the above note.
Regards,
—Satyan
On 31-Oct-2021, at 5:58 PM, Vinodh <vinod...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Thank you all for a wonderful and enlightening exchange of thoughts and contents
Ram Ram
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praNAms Sri Suresh Prabhuji
Hare Krishna
There are many pramANas for the existence of Atman/Brahman in the body and here is one:
Brahman in the body is the prasiddha Brahman according to Shankara BSB and this is identified with the
Shruti prasiddha NirguNa Brahman.
Ø And in the bhAshya itself there is a mention of existence of two Atma-s in shareera !! One is jeevaatma whose existence restricted only to shareera and another Atma (paramAtma / Ishwara) is not only in shareera but he is sarvavyApi. But this does not mean there are two Chaitanya-s in one shareera, contextually without doing the siddhAnta hAni of AtmaikatvaM we have to understand all these vAkyas.
The Aikya of Shiva/Rudra and Vishnu (yes, with attributes) is available in the following mantra from Sri Rudram:
Om Namo Bhagavate RudrAya Vishnave mrutyurme pAhi.
Ø Yes this aikya is same not only shiva & rudra but sakala jeevarAshi as the Chaitanya behind ALL is ONE. yekO devaH sarvabhuteshu gudhaH, sAkshi cheetah kevalO nirguNascha says shvetAshvatara. Is there any difference between Chaitanya in me and Chaitanya that we worship in shiva/vishNu ?? absolutely no, because this chaitanya / svarUpa jnana is upAdhi vishesha rahita jnana. That is the reason why a jnAni who realized his svarUpa exclaims in ecstasy chidAnanda rUpaH shivOhaM shivOhaM.
Also in B.Gita Sri Krishna identifies himself with kAla who is none other than Rudra who is mahAkAla/laya karta.
Ofcourse fanatic devoties of Vishnu and Shiva may not agree with the above 🙂
Ø That is dvaitins’ problem we cannot help it. They can even argue for ages which is more powerful weapon whether sudarshana chakra in vishNu’s hand or trishul in shiva’s hand 😊
While the Advaitic Brahman points to the unknowable and unthinkable, the same truth is also manifesting
and announcing its existence through every name and form. The following Shankara B.Gita bhAshya states
that explicitly.
Ø Yes but it is just an upAya to teach the nirvisheshatva of brahman. In that sense kAryAkArOpi kAraNarupameva satyaM. And it is for this reason only Advaita holds for the jagat the brahman is abhinna nimittOpadAna kAraNaM.
I am in agreement with whatever you have written with regard to Nirguna Brahman. But there are pramANas to prove that the same Nirguna Brahman can manifest as Ishwara to protect ajyAnIs like me. 🙂
Ø Absolutely true. For maNda and madhyama adhikAri-s or ajnAni-s like us, personification of nirguNa, nirAkAra, nirvishesha brahman is very much required like above. Here nirguNa brahman with full of compassion *see* the ajnAni-s like us and would like to *become* soPAdhika kArya / apara brahman or Ishwara and *bestow* the krama mukti etc. But for the advaitins like us, nirguNa nirvishesha brahman is final and supreme even there is equal mention of upAsya and jneya brahma in shruti-s. The verdict given by bhAshyakAra in vedAnta sUtra bhAshya 3-2-14. If there is any conflict between saguNa and nirguNa brahman we chose nirguNa aspect of brahman only as final because it is the shruti tAtparya ultimately.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
.