The Predicament of a Sadhaka

[putran M]

Namaskaram,

The few words that perhaps are easy for the intellect to admire (or scoff at) don't get assimilated. The system keeps rejecting them, confusing them, no matter how much and in how many ways we try to push them in. We strike a wall of resistance. Life exposes us again and again. 

The essence of Religion in terms of words and logical description is probably simple. We seem to be saying one thing variously, trying to impress and appeal by logic, intuition or grand constructions; but in a way it is repeated variously because that one thing is being opposed internally, either because it is itself false or because we are having shraddha elsewhere from this truth. Its depth, difficulty, complexity is not revealed by models, equations, theorems; just by the mere fact that despite all our formulations we remain anchored verily in what is deemed Ignorance in those formulations. It is almost embarrassing often times. 

The biggest sorcerers of intellectual whataboutery in our world, yup the same lost dummies from the standpoint of this Religion and its proclaimed Knowledge. Such folk and their fans don’t win applause here.

Realization is said to effect a perennial stabilization in, a perfect synchronization with Truth. For us however the smallest twist in life and the buffoon desperate for his smallness leaps back out. Same desires, same fears, willingly and knowingly we return to our old form as if that is exactly where we belong. 

Why are we thus opposed to this Knowledge? Obstructions everywhere to its assimilation. It seems in spite of all these cogitations, we can’t separate what is real and what is make-believe, can't believe the stated problem as the problem, the solution as solution, the path or process to achieve it, nor that we can or should follow it. That all this talk is more than a imagined "Theory". That if we had full awareness of certain Knowledge in the way it is to be had, we will obtain liberation from sorrow here and now, because ignorance is the cause of sorrow. In a hocus-pocus that if we had that realization, it will cut the knots of the heart asunder and end the “embodied atma's” search for new destinations (bodies) in search of freedom, peace, fullness - the knowledge having eliminated all notion of embodiment and limitation.

The theory is nice. Perhaps a coherent universe could be modeled on it. But surely not this, not mine?

But then the Religion says ours is that Universe. And so we continue the talk, the regurgitation, the reiteration, the repeated resurrection of shraddha and sadhana, no matter the setbacks. There must be light at the end of the tunnel, as they say.

(this came out a bit of a whining rant. The “we” is generic, not necessarily reflecting my present state of mind.)

thollmelukaalkizhu

[Vinodh]

:)

Your post made me smile. 

Especially since I was just reading about Sriharsha's Khandana Khanda Khaadya and your post reminded me of his arguments against the logicians to establish the indefinability of this universe of experiences, which includes all these discussions about the words of Truth and 'becoming one with It'. 

Thank you for sharing. 

🙏

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[Vinodh]

Here is an excerpt from the Introduction of the English translation of Khandana Khanda Khaadya, which was shared in another thread:

[sunil bhattacharjya]

The Supreme consciousness is beyond anybody’s grasp, yet

 it is worth learning about it. We should learn and practice, and leave the rest to Lord Krishna.

Krishnam Bande Jagadgurum

skb

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2021, at 9:25 AM, Vinodh <vinod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is an excerpt from the Introduction of the English translation of Khandana Khanda Khaadya, which was shared in another thread:

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[putran M]

Namaskaram, some contemplation.

When I wake up each morning, a stream of thoughts and images, mental states - call them objects - run through the mind’s eye.

I am not searching for them consciously.

It seems Ishvara brings them to my consciousness, or shines the light of my awareness upon these objects existing in my mind-world. And thus I cognize/know them.

This cognizant power of self, to know objects in the mind-world and sense-world, is its jnana shakti.

And the cognition results in corresponding modification in mw.

Why however does Ishvara connect my consciousness with an object or experience of the world?

Ishvara is karmaphaladaata.

So that cognition that is bestowed on the jiva without its conscious willing should also be understood as “karmaphala”.

At the causal level, the ‘jiva’ is manifestation of Ajnana. In its manifestation as the subtle body, Ajnana is encoded as the knowledge of anatma (world) and identification of self with anatma (body), desires, fears, etc.

This identification with anatma is a corollary of past karma done by this jiva in order to reinforce prior state of Ajnana. And the present identifications in turn come with the desire to reinforce them and the corresponding limited embodiment of self.

——-——————————-

The jiva is a state/locus of karmic in-equilibrium.

The Lord thus sends to the jiva’s cognition the entities/experiences manifest in mw/sw that will dissipate or mirror the karmic imbalance/stress built up in the jiva.

So if i have indulged in ice cream or developed desire for it, it is normal that the thought of ice cream is sent to my consciousness. 

The Question is “how do i understand or respond to this cognition?”

(will add some thought on this later)

thollmelukaalkizhu

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 6:41 PM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram,

The few words that perhaps are easy for the intellect to admire (or scoff at) don't get assimilated. The system keeps rejecting them, confusing them, nohat is exactly where we belong. 

[putran M]

Namaskaram,

Continuing thoughts …

So how might a sadhaka respond to a cognition?

Firstly with the recognition that the cognition is karmaphala for my past karma.

Secondly that the cognition is itself only atmasvarupa.

The cognition bifurcates into two sub-cognitions. To know it as anatma and to know it as atmasvarupa.

When known as anatma, it points to desire/choices that reinforce the Bheda in and bandha of Atma, that direct in the path of preyas.

When known as atmasvarupa, it redirects (the astika) to cognition of Ishvara-tattva, to Shastra pramana, to the path of sreyas; question becomes what is my svadharma right now, even as Ishvara has granted this cognition as karmaphala?

Sreyas or preyas. Now choose.

———————————————————

The cognitions that Ishvara gives the jiva conjoin two dimensions of knowledge: 1. the inherent awareness of the self reality, that I am free, unlimited, immutable, of the nature of sat-chit-ananda; and 2. the identifications of self with anatma due to Ignorance. Due to the latter the jiva feels limited, but due to that being conjoined to the former, the jiva is ever trying to actualize its reality through karma and thereby become unlimited and blissful. The jiva is in truth seeking liberation from this Ignorance that is manifest in the superimposition of anatma on Atma.

The entanglements brought on by karma require karma to disentangle. Wrong desire (for anatma Bandha, samsara) has to be replaced with right desire (for atmajnana, moksha); wrong action has to be replaced with right Dharmic action. The jiva has to dream its way out of the dream. Each choice and action (through mind or body) is karma of its own making, that moulds its subtle body correspondingly, and Ishvara bestows the corresponding karmaphala suitable to it. For past choices on the path of sreyas, the Lord later gives opportunities to progress in that path towards atmajnana; whether it be through a religious family, a guru, awareness of Shastra as pramana, special knowledge of svadharma such as one’s varna dharma. Greater the opportunities earned, keener the demands, the tests and margins for error. But for past choices on the path of preyas, the same jiva still not liberated will also find the pull of anatma. The Lord thus gives both choices in the jiva’s cognition, in accordance to its fitness. It has to choose, again. Depending on its choice (iccha and kriya), doors open and doors close; Snakes and ladders.

——————————————————

Nothing is arbitrary to the jiva’s experience. Ishvara runs the show and gives karmaphala according to our iccha (mentally pursued) and kriya. Order is His, the chaos that seems to us is also part of His Order manifesting, according to the jivas’ karma. If the Shastra is revealed to a jiva (again by the Lord) and the jiva takes right action with right intent to follow Ishvara’s Order as revealed by the pramana, to its best ability and available knowledge, then that can be righteous karma that will lead to resolution of its bondage in this or a future birth. Whereas the same jiva that has earned the opportunity to enter the path of sreyas also has before it the path of preyas due to unresolved Ajnana. If it chooses this path instead, it potentially loses the opportunity to rectify its mind-chaos and progress. Etc.

thollmelukaalkizhu 

[putran M]

Secondly that the cognition is itself only atmasvarupa.

The cognition bifurcates into two sub-cognitions. To know it as anatma and to know it as atmasvarupa.

(In the triple manifestation seer-seeing-seen, the seen is not-self and hence anatma whereas the seer is inextricably tied to and bounded by this anatma. However the Reality/Atman is nondual. The seen rightly known therefore is atmasvarupam (in the sense of being appearance or projection of Atma) and not anatma; likewise any notion of seer/jiva separate from seen/jagat.)

When known as anatma, it points to desire/choices that reinforce the Bheda in and bandha of Atma, that direct in the path of preyas.

When known as atmasvarupa, it redirects (the astika) to cognition of Ishvara-tattva, to Shastra pramana, to the path of sreyas; question becomes what is my svadharma right now, even as Ishvara has granted this cognition as karmaphala?

Sreyas or preyas. Now choose.

———————————————————

——————————————————

thollmelukaalkizhu 

[Vinodh]

Sound analysis. 👌

The question regarding the thought of an ice-cream still remains. 🙂

I have a guess, but would like to hear your thoughts first. 

Namaskarams 🙏

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[putran M]

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

Some free thinking on this topic below. At some point I decided to turn back and finish.

The jiva’s Shakti has three functionalities.

First is Jnana-shakti which allows the jiva to know/cognize (by causing necessary modification in subtle body and shining light of consciousness on it) the object/experience shown to it by the Lord. We cannot in general chart out the whys and wherefore of what and when Ishvara decides to give the jiva. However what we can say is that it befits the jiva’s own state of ajnana as carved by its past karma.

One analogy is the virus-receptor correspondence. In order for certain virus to bind, the cell must have the corresponding receptor, and if a virus is found to have bound to a cell, we know that the cell had the receptor. Likewise, the jiva’s karma creates the receptor or shape in the subtle body that become the lamp-post to which Ishvara can send certain cognition, experience, karmaphala. 

So if I wake up and think icecream, my mind has a karma-developed shape in which the cognition of icecream as a mind-object is appropriate karmaphala-fit at this moment; the Lord directs my awareness to it and by my jnana-shakti I cognize the same. Alternatively we can also understand that the jiva’s jnana-shakti projects the object (gross or subtle) shown by the Lord onto its own subtle-body’s unique karma landscape and according to which the cognition happens.

This initial cognition leads to subsequent cognitions within the mind world. How so? There is definitely the association of icecream with sensual pleasure and of “my happiness” with that. But these days, there may be alongside cognition of “sugar”, “fat”, health-issues, and the fear “icecream can lead to unhappiness”. All this is as per Ishvara bringing to the jiva’s consciousness a neighbourhood of the icecream cognition within the jiva’s mind-world and the jiva’s jnana-shakti enveloping and grasping those objects. 

Thus whereas during childhood, the neighborhood of “icecream” cognition may only have had association of pleasure, later on the karma of learning and contemplating (possibly after experiencing Phala of sickness) has planted or uncovered the knowledge of health-issues; now when icecream cognition comes to the adult, the jnana shakti expands naturally to the developed neighborhood and reveals knowledge of both pleasure and pain possibilities.

In the backdrop of the functioning of Jnana Shakti and the knowledge of anatma it reveals is the inherent shining of the Self, contradicting the limitations imposed by anatma identifications. As I said in the previous mail, the conjoining of these two dimensions of knowledge and the urge to dissolve the temporal/unreal in the eternal beckons the jiva to desire and act.

This is where the jiva’s iccha Shakti and kriya Shakti come in. Taking into account the knowledge revealed by Jnana-Shakti, which can include notions of desire and projections of potential manifestation, the jiva ultimately has to make a choice, or actively desire/indulge a direction and destination. This power to choose/desire is its iccha shakti, and when the choice is made, the jiva also employs its kriya shakti to manifest new thought and (possibly physical) action - i.e. to modify its mind and sense worlds. Ishvara modifies the subtle body correspondingly. That is to say, the jiva is effecting new karma by employing its iccha and kriya shakti. 

Now whether the jiva chooses to eat icecream for the sake of pleasure or avoids it for fear of disease may indeed lead (over time) to different trajectories of its physical and mental well being. But both choices apriori are established in ajnana of self, in the belief “i am the body” and their concept of svadharma in terms of the body, its wants and needs. Their karma therefore, though apparently different and leading to different karmaphala, may only serve to reinforce the common ajnana and they cycle around in samsara.

But perhaps for the guy who over-indulges in pleasure and suffers, a frustration happens. And for the guy who fights to avoid the pleasure, a keener awareness of freedom sets in. In that soil near that icecream cognition sprouts by the Lord’s anugraha the saplings of a higher knowledge of self that is always beckoning just below the surface. And the Lord shows them to this jiva. 

The jiva having cognized it has now the choice to desire its growth, to seek out the right actions and methods to water and nurture; to plant it within and beside the neighborhood of every anatma cognition that the Lord grants as karmaphala, so that eventually every cognition is known as nothing but atmasvarupa. Will it make this choice?

That was the essence of the first few lines in my earlier mail. It applies to icecream as anything else. It is not that we give up icecream or not. Our focus has to switch from anatma to Atma and we seek to manifest our iccha and kriya shakti in ways that align with this focus. It may be not pursuing further the thought of icecream and instead asking what is my svadharma now; it may be eating icecream at a social gathering as Ishvara prasada. Ishvara will order the details according to our karma and decisions in this regard. Snakes and Ladders.

thollmelukaalkizhu 

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[Vinodh]

“It is not that we give up icecream or not. Our focus has to switch from anatma to Atma and we seek to manifest our iccha and kriya shakti in ways that align with this focus. It may be not pursuing further the thought of icecream and instead asking what is my svadharma now; it may be eating icecream at a social gathering as Ishvara prasada.”

Well said!

Thank you also for the elaboration. 

Namaskaram 🙏

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[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Putran prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Just on the lighter note, I did not know as an advaitin I have to think so deep just to have icecream 😊 The advaita way of thinking snatched away the joy of eating in me and now I cannot eat ice cream peacefully 😊 Henceforth, there will be lot of conflicts among jnana, iccha and kriya shakti due to the confusion of Ishwara prasaada as per my karmaphala. 

 

But as a sAdhaka bhakta ( not as an Advaita jnana sAdhaka)  I would like to cultivate the iccha shakti after exercising jnana shakti keeping this one verse from 9^th chapter of geeta :  yat karOsi, yadashnAsi yat juhOsi dadAsiyat yat tapasyasi kaunteya tat kurushwa madarpaNaM.  So, eating icecreams, gobi Manchurians, drinking milkshakes everything would like to surrender unto the lotus feet of the lord.  I don’t know how far I am going to succeed in this task.  Yes as you rightly observed its all depends on  Ishvara who will order the details according to our karma and decisions in this regard.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

Some free thinking on this topic below. At some point I decided to turn back and finish.

 

The jiva’s Shakti has three functionalities.

 

First is Jnana-shakti which allows the jiva to know/cognize (by causing necessary modification in subtle body and shining light of consciousness on it) the object/experience shown to it by the Lord. We cannot in general chart out the whys and wherefore of what and when Ishvara decides to give the jiva. However what we can say is that it befits the jiva’s own state of ajnana as carved by its past karma.

 

One analogy is the virus-receptor correspondence. In order for certain virus to bind, the cell must have the corresponding receptor, and if a virus is found to have bound to a cell, we know that the cell had the receptor. Likewise, the jiva’s karma creates the receptor or shape in the subtle body that become the lamp-post to which Ishvara can send certain cognition, experience, karmaphala. 

 

So if I wake up and think icecream, my mind has a karma-developed shape in which the cognition of icecream as a mind-object is appropriate karmaphala-fit at this moment; the Lord directs my awareness to it and by my jnana-shakti I cognize the same. Alternatively we can also understand that the jiva’s jnana-shakti projects the object (gross or subtle) shown by the Lord onto its own subtle-body’s unique karma landscape and according to which the cognition happens.

 

This initial cognition leads to subsequent cognitions within the mind world. How so? There is definitely the association of icecream with sensual pleasure and of “my happiness” with that. But these days, there may be alongside cognition of “sugar”, “fat”, health-issues, and the fear “icecream can lead to unhappiness”. All this is as per Ishvara bringing to the jiva’s consciousness a neighbourhood of the icecream cognition within the jiva’s mind-world and the jiva’s jnana-shakti enveloping and grasping those objects. 

 

Thus whereas during childhood, the neighborhood of “icecream” cognition may only have had association of pleasure, later on the karma of learning and contemplating (possibly after experiencing Phala of sickness) has planted or uncovered the knowledge of health-issues; now when icecream cognition comes to the adult, the jnana shakti expands naturally to the developed neighborhood and reveals knowledge of both pleasure and pain possibilities.

 

In the backdrop of the functioning of Jnana Shakti and the knowledge of anatma it reveals is the inherent shining of the Self, contradicting the limitations imposed by anatma identifications. As I said in the previous mail, the conjoining of these two dimensions of knowledge and the urge to dissolve the temporal/unreal in the eternal beckons the jiva to desire and act.

 

This is where the jiva’s iccha Shakti and kriya Shakti come in. Taking into account the knowledge revealed by Jnana-Shakti, which can include notions of desire and projections of potential manifestation, the jiva ultimately has to make a choice, or actively desire/indulge a direction and destination. This power to choose/desire is its iccha shakti, and when the choice is made, the jiva also employs its kriya shakti to manifest new thought and (possibly physical) action - i.e. to modify its mind and sense worlds. Ishvara modifies the subtle body correspondingly. That is to say, the jiva is effecting new karma by employing its iccha and kriya shakti. 

 

Now whether the jiva chooses to eat icecream for the sake of pleasure or avoids it for fear of disease may indeed lead (over time) to different trajectories of its physical and mental well being. But both choices apriori are established in ajnana of self, in the belief “i am the body” and their concept of svadharma in terms of the body, its wants and needs. Their karma therefore, though apparently different and leading to different karmaphala, may only serve to reinforce the common ajnana and they cycle around in samsara.

 

But perhaps for the guy who over-indulges in pleasure and suffers, a frustration happens. And for the guy who fights to avoid the pleasure, a keener awareness of freedom sets in. In that soil near that icecream cognition sprouts by the Lord’s anugraha the saplings of a higher knowledge of self that is always beckoning just below the surface. And the Lord shows them to this jiva. 

 

The jiva having cognized it has now the choice to desire its growth, to seek out the right actions and methods to water and nurture; to plant it within and beside the neighborhood of every anatma cognition that the Lord grants as karmaphala, so that eventually every cognition is known as nothing but atmasvarupa. Will it make this choice?

 

That was the essence of the first few lines in my earlier mail. It applies to icecream as anything else. It is not that we give up icecream or not. Our focus has to switch from anatma to Atma and we seek to manifest our iccha and kriya shakti in ways that align with this focus. It may be not pursuing further the thought of icecream and instead asking what is my svadharma now; it may be eating icecream at a social gathering as Ishvara prasada. Ishvara will order the details according to our karma and decisions in this regard. Snakes and Ladders.

 

thollmelukaalkizhu 

 

.

[putran M]

Namaskaram Bhaskar-ji,

Replace icecream with whatever you gave up or plan to give up in your trip to Kasi. That solves the problem!

Sri Krishna is the Boss. 

thollmelukaalkizhu 

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[putran M]

It is not that we give up icecream or not. Our focus has to switch from anatma to Atma and we seek to manifest our iccha and kriya shakti in ways that align with this focus. It may be not pursuing further the thought of icecream and instead asking what is my svadharma now; it may be eating icecream at a social gathering as Ishvara prasada. Ishvara will order the details according to our karma and decisions in this regard. Snakes and Ladders.

Namaskaram, 

Bhaskar-ji's question in the other thread (paradox of advaita upasakas) on upasana and advaita made me think of this ice cream example in a different sense. 

Getting and eating ice cream is kaamya karma. The jiva is conducting a particular upasana, puja, prayer, yagnya to the Lord in order to obtain a specific result. What is this upasana?

1. Travel to the ice cream shop (at the appropriate time when shop is open)

2. Choose the ice cream

3. Pay for the ice cream (when the shop-owner jiva fulfills his svadharma and does the upasana of serving us the ice cream)

4. Eat the ice cream

Then we can savour the "yummy" taste and be happy. 

 The jiva has shraddha that this upasana if done correctly will yield the desired result; and has conviction that that result is worth obtaining. So deep, that the advaitin in that jiva is kept aside for the moment: no question like "sarvam kalu idam brahma, why seek icecream particularly"? And unlike doing Sandhyavandanam at sandhya kala, or waking up at brahmamuhurta, the jiva knows that for the getting-ice cream upasana, there is no question of getting the right result if any of these steps is done incorrectly, hence is diligent to do it precisely. For other things like "Getting A in the exam", we have clarity in the general upasana "Study", even if we cannot map out the path to the Result exactly due to ignorance of other obstructions; so we keep praying to the Lord through the Study-worship even when we happen not to get A in an exam.

Part of the problem is that when it comes to ice cream, the jiva does not realize the associated upasana as a formal prayer-transaction with Ishvara but rather as being only with humans and laws of nature that it can separate out from religious thinking for the time being. For this jiva, only the puja done in the puja room or to Saguna Brahman particularized as a deity or God, falls in the category of upasana. Otherwise, the (otherwise religious) jiva will ask itself everytime it embarks in goal-oriented action, "Should I be praying to the Lord in this elaborate yagnya for this type of result?" And that perspective and questioning can itself become the basis for its viveka and vairagya. If the karma is required for the objective of dharma and (ultimately) moksha, then we diligently do the corresponding upasana (think: prayer to the Lord) as taught by shastra and/or in accordance with laws known via pratyaksha related pramanas. Then be detached about the results; for the Lord is the impartial giver of the phala. If the karma is determined as seeking only self-gratification, devoid of the objective of aligning with Dharma and clearing the path to Moksha, then we may opt to desist from going through the "elaborate yagnya for this type of result".

thollmelukaalkizhu

[Vinodh]

Sri Putran ji,

Once again I enjoyed reading your train of thought. 

WIth regard to the last thought: 

"If the karma is determined as seeking only self-gratification, devoid of the objective of aligning with Dharma and clearing the path to Moksha, then we may opt to desist from going through the "elaborate yagnya for this type of result".", 

I would like to make the following observation:

Even if a karma is determined as seeking only self-gratification, to avoid the self-gratification karmas having undesirable consequences later on, one well-versed in the shaastras will only align with Dharma. In other words, for a shaastra-jna, self-gratification is always aligned with Dharma. 

It is also worth noting that such alignment with Dharma does not necessarily mean detachment from results because the purpose of the various dhaarmic (kaamya) karmas is for the very purpose of enjoyment of the results: from being able to pass an exam all the way to becoming Prajapathi himself. One may even perform nithya and naimitikka karmas with a desire to enjoy the results of these (like expiation of sins, svarga, etc.).

Performance of nithya and naimitika karmas with detachment from results (and the subsequent negation of the notion of doer and enjoyer or kartrtva and bhoktrva) is a requirement only for moksha. 

Om tat sat 🙏

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[putran M]

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

Adding some thoughts.

 

Even if a karma is determined as seeking only self-gratification, to avoid the self-gratification karmas having undesirable consequences later on, one well-versed in the shaastras will only align with Dharma. In other words, for a shaastra-jna, self-gratification is always aligned with Dharma. 

The jiva has a body. It must eat everyday. That is self-gratification that is aligned with the Dharma corresponding to its state of existence. Some jivas may have further 'spoiled' their body-mind with addiction to caffeine, that they cannot function properly without having coffee in the morning; so we may say taking coffee corresponds with the Dharma of that being. For a King (in old days), his svadharma may include seeking to establish supremacy and expand empire, do the Rajasuya etc. Lot of self-gratification there but which becomes subordinate to the dharma of his position.

Basically the Dharma of a being (animate or not) is the natural law of its existence in Ishvara. It is how that being given its present state will exist and move in Ishvara's Order, if Ishvara alone is the Operator. For He runs the Universe in an optimal manner to obtain the jivas their karma-phala and clear the obstructions to their jnana, and is entirely detached/impartial about it. As in the examples above, this natural flow may include in jivas, their seeking and obtaining certain aspects of self-gratification according to their body-mind state as well as their social and other circumstance. For example, a person who may not seek ice cream himself may do so in the birthday party of his child: he is fulfilling his dharma as a parent given that he has become a part of that party circumstance already.

Ishvara also does not have the burden of Ignorance that prompts Him into action that reinforces that Ignorance. Whereas the jivas are conditioned by this Ignorance of Self, hence they are motivated into action (or decisions) that affirms and solidifies their wrong notion of self. This is where the jiva can for the sake of "self-gratification" deviate from Dharma, for its choice in the direction of preyas vs sreyas can constitute reiteration of its Ignorance or progress to Jnana/Moksha. The natural Dharmic flow in Ishvara's Order leads to a resolution or dissipation of the karmic accumulations of Ignorance due to and in jivas, and the jiva has the ability to align itself to this flow or to create instead new karma that adds to the karmic tension in Hiranyagarbha (total subtle body), which in turn becomes the succeeding basis for the flow of Dharma. A jnani is aligned to Dharma because he lacks the ajnana that alone can be cause for deviation from Dharma.

I am not sure if being well-versed in shastra is sufficient to align with Dharma. An ajnani though knowing the shastras thoroughly is an ajnani because his shraddha is in his ajnana and not the shastras. So, push comes to shove, we need not be surprised that he looks past shastraic injunction and knowledge and panders to his desire and wrong notion of self in ways not aligned with dharma. 

 

It is also worth noting that such alignment with Dharma does not necessarily mean detachment from results because the purpose of the various dhaarmic (kaamya) karmas is for the very purpose of enjoyment of the results: from being able to pass an exam all the way to becoming Prajapathi himself. One may even perform nithya and naimitikka karmas with a desire to enjoy the results of these (like expiation of sins, svarga, etc.).

Yes it is an ideal situation. The point is not whether the self-gratification we seek may be dharmic to our state of existence and hence that we can feel joy or sadness about getting or not getting the desired result. The point is that we may seek it by doing the appropriate upasana prayer to the Lord, but that there is no place for regret about the actual result for it is exactly what was appropriate for us given our present and past karma. If the Lord gives us a B in the exam, we must be perfectly clear that that is what we deserved (as phala). If we still wish for an A, then we have to strive to do the upasana more perfectly next time around and clear other obstructions to our knowledge. 

 

Performance of nithya and naimitika karmas with detachment from results (and the subsequent negation of the notion of doer and enjoyer or kartrtva and bhoktrva) is a requirement only for moksha. 

Agree. Technically we are forum of "mumukshus" and "Shaastrajnas" :) I am talking sometimes to people like myself who may speak advaita and yet run to youtube for sports commentaries. Thinking of Upasana in the general manner has helped me get a better grip on viveka and vairagya.

thollmelukaalkizhu

 

Om tat sat 🙏

On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 10:21 PM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is not that we give up icecream or not. Our focus has to switch from anatma to Atma and we seek to manifest our iccha and kriya shakti in ways that align with this focus. It may be not pursuing further the thought of icecream and instead asking what is my svadharma now; it may be eating icecream at a social gathering as Ishvara prasada. Ishvara will order the details according to our karma and decisions in this regard. Snakes and Ladders.

Namaskaram, 

Bhaskar-ji's question in the other thread (paradox of advaita upasakas) on upasana and advaita made me think of this ice cream example in a different sense. 

Getting and eating ice cream is kaamya karma. The jiva is conducting a particular upasana, puja, prayer, yagnya to the Lord in order to obtain a specific result. What is this upasana?

1. Travel to the ice cream shop (at the appropriate time when shop is open)

2. Choose the ice cream

3. Pay for the ice cream (when the shop-owner jiva fulfills his svadharma and does the upasana of serving us the ice cream)

4. Eat the ice cream

Then we can savour the "yummy" taste and be happy. 

 The jiva has shraddha that this upasana if done correctly will yield the desired result; and has conviction that that result is worth obtaining. So deep, that the advaitin in that jiva is kept aside for the moment: no question like "sarvam kalu idam brahma, why seek icecream particularly"? And unlike doing Sandhyavandanam at sandhya kala, or waking up at brahmamuhurta, the jiva knows that for the getting-ice cream upasana, there is no question of getting the right result if any of these steps is done incorrectly, hence is diligent to do it precisely. For other things like "Getting A in the exam", we have clarity in the general upasana "Study", even if we cannot map out the path to the Result exactly due to ignorance of other obstructions; so we keep praying to the Lord through the Study-worship even when we happen not to get A in an exam.

Part of the problem is that when it comes to ice cream, the jiva does not realize the associated upasana as a formal prayer-transaction with Ishvara but rather as being only with humans and laws of nature that it can separate out from religious thinking for the time being. For this jiva, only the puja done in the puja room or to Saguna Brahman particularized as a deity or God, falls in the category of upasana. Otherwise, the (otherwise religious) jiva will ask itself everytime it embarks in goal-oriented action, "Should I be praying to the Lord in this elaborate yagnya for this type of result?" And that perspective and questioning can itself become the basis for its viveka and vairagya. If the karma is required for the objective of dharma and (ultimately) moksha, then we diligently do the corresponding upasana (think: prayer to the Lord) as taught by shastra and/or in accordance with laws known via pratyaksha related pramanas. Then be detached about the results; for the Lord is the impartial giver of the phala. If the karma is determined as seeking only self-gratification, devoid of the objective of aligning with Dharma and clearing the path to Moksha, then we may opt to desist from going through the "elaborate yagnya for this type of result".

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[putran M]

Namaskaram,

For He runs the Universe in an optimal manner to obtain the jivas their karma-phala and clear the obstructions to their jnana, … its choice in the direction of preyas vs sreyas can constitute reiteration of its Ignorance or progress to Jnana/Moksha. The natural Dharmic flow in Ishvara's Order leads to a resolution or dissipation of the karmic accumulations of Ignorance due to and in jivas, and the jiva has the ability to align itself to this flow

I do not mean above that alignment to dharma will itself clear Ajnana and obtain Jnana/moksha. If I understand correctly, it will clear karmic obstructions like with attaining  chitta shuddhi and perhaps also present the jiva with spiritually favourable life, etc. But the jiva still has to actively make further choices to further progress in the spiritual path and realize the Self. That is to say, Ishvara will at the right time give the jiva the opportunity to upgrade itself, at which time the sreyas choice for that fit jiva may be to utilize that opportunity. It still has to commit via its iccha and kriya shakti.

thollmelukaalkizhu 

[Vinodh]

Namaskaram Putran ji,

I like your thoughts on the choice of a jiva to follow dharma and the implications of the choice being made, leading either to dissipation of karmic accumulations or to add to it.   

It makes sense to think about our lives in terms of upasana in a general sense. Fundamentally it is one’s desires to experience some result that drives one towards upasana, which could be interpreted more generally as “meditation towards attaining desired results”. When one sees it this way, everything that one does is an upasana only, albeit done with ajnana by imagining to be the doer and the enjoyer. Some of these lead one towards removing this ajnana (considered dharmic), some keep one within it. 

However, only the ones that help one go towards  removing ajnana (i.e, only those prescribed by the shaastras) appear to be referred to by the word “upasana” by the sampradaya. Upasana (up+asana) literally means to “sit closer” implying the process by which one’s mind becomes firmly established closer to the Truth. In these, the object or concept that one focuses one’s mind on is prescribed by the shaastras (and therefore unlikely to be something like an ice-cream for example).

Sankara defines Upasana as the inner transformation to acquire a higher mental state, where one concentrates on one object constantly recommended by the Scriptures like the uninterrupted flow of water or oil etc.

“upasanam nama yatha sastramupasyasyarthasya visayikaranena samipyamupagamya tailadharavat samanapratyayapravahena dirghakalam casanam tadupasanamacaksate” Shankara Bhashya on Bhagavad Gita, 12.3

In another place he says that when one has taken an object following the Scriptures and penetrates into it by surpassing all fluctuations of mind and thought, so that no disturbances are further caused anymore, then that is called Upasana. 

“upasanam tu yatha sastrasamapitam kincidalambanam-upadaya tasmin samanacittavrttisantanakaranam“ Shankara Bhashya on Chandogya Upanishad, Intro.

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[putran M]

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

these, the object or concept that one focuses one’s mind on is prescribed by the shaastras (and therefore unlikely to be something like an ice-cream for example).

Sankara defines Upasana as the inner transformation to acquire a higher mental state, where one concentrates on one object constantly recommended by the Scriptures like the uninterrupted flow of water or oil etc.

Please note that the object in what I termed general upasana is not ice cream or YouTube videos. It is Ishvara (having all Shastra and Sampradaya stamp of approval) who is being concentrated upon as karmaphaladata, by the jiva, in every karma that it volitionally initiates. For that jiva, every such karma becomes upasana of the Lord, and because He is being focused upon constantly, there should naturally be an inner transformation in the jiva, which I suggested can correspond in stabilizing viveka, vairagya, etc.

Even leaving aside the inner transformation part, I am pretty confident what I said comes inside the second half of Shankara’s definition as you have translated.

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste

On Mon, 15 Nov 2021, 08:00 putran M, <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please note that the object in what I termed general upasana is not ice cream or YouTube videos. It is Ishvara (having all Shastra and Sampradaya stamp of approval) who is being concentrated upon as karmaphaladata, by the jiva, in every karma that it volitionally initiates. For that jiva, every such karma becomes upasana of the Lord, and because He is being focused upon constantly, there should naturally be an inner transformation in the jiva, which I suggested can correspond in stabilizing viveka, vairagya, etc.

These words reminded me of the famous verse from Shivamanasapuja stotra.

आत्मा त्वं गिरिजा मतिः सहचराः प्राणाः शरीरं गृहं

पूजा ते विषयोपभोगरचना निद्रा समाधिस्थितिः ।

सञ्चारः पदयोः प्रदक्षिणविधिः स्तोत्राणि सर्वा गिरो

यद्यत्कर्म करोमि तत्तदखिलं शम्भो तवाराधनम् ॥

Regards

Venkatraghavan

[Vinodh]

Thank you for the clarification, Putran-ji. I had misunderstood what you had intended to mean by the object of the upasana in the examples of eating ice cream and watching YouTube videos. If, like Venkatraghavan-ji points out, all these activities which involve sensual pleasures are also seen as worship of the Lord (“पूजा ते विषयोपभोगरचना”), then indeed the object of the upasana in all these activities is the Ishwara only. 

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[Bhaskar YR]

Agree. Technically we are forum of "mumukshus" and "Shaastrajnas" :) I am talking sometimes to people like myself who may speak advaita and yet run to youtube for sports commentaries.

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

Recently seen one video clipping of Sri bhagavAn ramaNa maharshi, after a walk he came and sat on the cot and opened the *news paper* read some news by turning over the pages!!!  So, it is not big issue for Armchair mumukshu-s and shAstrajna-s like us to closely follow IPL matches and supporting our home team and shouting slogans like “E sala cup namde”  😊  

[putran M]

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

I probably meant it slightly differently than how you put it since I see this Upasana (as I initially proposed it) leading to (“inner transformation”) viveka and vairagya for the sadhaka. Perhaps in tantra, there are modes of worship where one tries to invoke the presence of Ishvara within the practice of sensual enjoyment for indeed He is the source/substratum/power of all. But I meant in a more preliminary sense, where the frivolous karma we typically indulge in when not thinking of Ishvara, we may have greater viveka and vairagya towards them when we realize and remind ourselves methodically all such karma as upasana of the Lord since Vedanta teaches that He is the karmaphaladata. Our bhakti to Him replaces and dissuades our interest in them; energies become focused and channelized; gaps and leaks are shut.

Now if the question is “why have vairagya from any of this when all is Ishvara svarupa?” etc., that can be a separate thread; it will likely be of theoretical interest to others. 

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[Vinodh]

Thank you for the clarification, Sri Putran ji. 

In this case, I have the following question. Perhaps one may consider this theoretical (although I do not), but it is not entirely clear to me how viveka and vairagya would arise by reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata in all our karma and therefore perform karma as an upasana to Ishwara. 

It could be contended that reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the phaladhaata may not lead to viveka and vairagya. I am assuming here that the viveka and vairagya you are referring to are nitya-anitya viveka (discrimination between the permanent and the ephemeral) and vairagya (dispassion) toward the ephemeral that arises out of such viveka. 

How so?

Suppose we remind ourselves everytime we perform a karma, like getting an ice-cream, for example, that it is because of Ishwara that we are able to get the ice-cream, enjoy its taste, and derive pleasure. This will only make us dependent on Ishwara for all our pleasures while performing any karma toward attaining those pleasures, even if done so as an upasana. Even the pleasure of being a bhaktha is included in this set of pleasures. Even a Jiva's attainment of Kailsha or Vaikuntha and the "moksha" of being always near the Lord is such a pleasure. In all these pleasures, there is a dependence of the Jiva on the Ishwara because the Jiva thinks "I am the doer who is performing this karma / upasana" and "I am the enjoyer of the phala that Ishwara provides". This corresponds to the Dvaitin view that there is a Paramatama (Ishwara) who is a svatantra (independent) entity and the other Jivas are paratantra (dependent) entities. In such a view, the Jivas are always dependent on the Paramatma. Moreover, the Jivas and Paramatma are all considered real and permanent. This clearly does not match with the viveka of Advaita, which establishes that only the Atman is permanent and real and that everything else is ephemeral and therefore illusory. Without such a nitya-anitya viveka, vairagya is also not possible because a Jiva will always be assumed to be dependent on the Paramatma, even while in the supposed "Moksha" of being in Kailasha or Vaikuntha (because the Jiva needs the Ishwara to be present there to be able to have the pleasure of worshipping Him). While the Jiva's bhakti to Ishwara may have replaced its interest in other pleasures, the Jiva still derives pleasure out of worshipping with the notion of "I am the worshipper of Ishwara" and "Ishwara provides me the refuge that I seek". The Jiva does not realise the oneness of the Atma of the Jiva and the Atma of the Ishwara, and remains dependent on Ishwara, because the Jiva does not have the vairagya to let go of the last remaining thing, which is its Bhakti to Ishwara. 

Therefore, simply reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata and performing all karma as an upasana to Him does not lead to nitya-anitya viveka and vairagya. This is why it is also of practical relevance for an Advaitin, not just theoretical.

On the other hand, if one dedicates all of what one assumes is the doer (e.g., You are my Atma, etc.) and the enjoyer (e.g., all the pleasures of my senses are for Your pooja, etc.) to Ishwara, like how Shankaracharya does in the quote by Sri Venkatraghavan-ji from Sivamanasapuja, then such an upasana naturally assigns all doership and enjoyership to Ishwara. This strikes at the root of ajnana, which is the assumption that "I am the doer of karma" and "I am the enjoyer of karmaphala", by asserting that the doer of the karma is also Ishwara and the enjoyer is also Ishwara. By doing so, it removes this ajnana and reveals the true nature of the Upasaka, which is neither a doer of actions nor an enjoyer of fruits. 

I am not saying that it is useless to remind ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata. This is certainly useful because it reminds us that there is a higher being that determines the results of our actions. It also helps us in following the Shaastras and the Dharma which are none other than Ishwara's prescriptions for us. Following them will make a Jiva eventually realise the ephemeral nature of the pleasures of the world around us. This will make the Jiva start to yearn for something permanent, to become a mumukshu, to become truly independent. At this point, the Jiva's attention happens to fall on Vedanta and one learns about the Mahavakyas that point to the identity of the Atma (the Jiva's Self) and Brahman (everything around the Jiva). Reflecting on these statements, the Jiva concludes that holding onto the concept of Ishwara as a separate entity on which the Jiva is dependent is contradictory to these statements that assert the oneness of these entities. Therefore, in realising the Advaita moksha the notions of Jiva, Ishwara, karma, phala, etc. are naturally lost. 

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[putran M]

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

I don't want to get into the details of your full mail. I look at this topic at a basic sadhaka level where too much advaita technicality is not going to matter. I will give a summary of my thinking for the basic question.

In this case, I have the following question. Perhaps one may consider this theoretical (although I do not), but it is not entirely clear to me how viveka and vairagya would arise by reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata in all our karma and therefore perform karma as an upasana to Ishwara. 

We have to approach this from the position of a jiva for whom Ishvara is as real as your mother is real to you. And in the presence of your mother, how will you talk, act, behave? What will you watch on TV? And if you have to ask of your mother - say, the Lord of your home, what will you ask for, a cigarette? According to the nature of the relationship, our behaviour is solidly modified in the presence of the other. It is not a logical choice in many cases. There are some limits that we or our body-mind simply cannot cross in the presence of our mother; and there are some emotions that we simply cannot experience expect with mother. 

My point is that we should not be simplistic in underestimating the efficacy of bhakti. If the jiva has that bhakti to Ishvara (as its source, the Ruler of its Home, who works non-stop that this jiva can clear its karmic balance and eventually attain moksha, i.e. transcend His domain) and is conscious of His presence in all its activities, naturally that will ("spiritualize") have a profound effect in the jiva's body-mind. The nitya vastu for the Jiva, life after life until it attains moksha, is Ishvara; any vision of existence that is devoid of the awareness of Consciousness-shakti aka Ishvara, is anitya. And desires for this anitya will naturally vanish or alter profoundly when there is consciousness of the presence of nitya Ishvara. So, the bhakti to Ishvara will aid in viveka-vairagya of a sadhaka.

Now our trouble is that unlike mother, we don't seem to have a natural way of mentally experiencing the reality of Ishvara. We see a bunch of body-mind jivas and an apparently jada universe that science seems to map out reasonably well. Anything beyond, that suggests an underlying Reality that manifests all this existence, with a profound karma-karmaphala causality focused on the resolution of karma-obstructions of these mini jivas in this mini-earth, all that and however you put it, seems mystical, not directly accessible. Ishvara has to be known through shastra, how to understand Him, how to relate to Him, etc. 

I remember Samskrita Bharati session: "Ishvarah kutra asti?" Students say: "Ishvarah sarvatra asti". So, we have to teach ourselves to see/know Ishvara everywhere and in everything, to relate to Him as Lord, Mother, Friend, etc. One intimate way of knowing Him is as the Karmaphaladata. What's intimate about this!?! Tag on Mother if you wish, but He is the One who gives phala for our actions past and present. Every karma we do, with a purpose, goal, desire for result - whether it be a huge project at work or the smallest indulgence in a thought for a ego-boost - we don't know it perhaps but we are formally praying to Him for the phala through an upasana - a method of worship for the sake of attaining a certain phala. 

But if you knew that you are asking your Mother, the only karmaphaladata, constantly and incessantly through such upasana, perhaps you will rightaway cease the request-petition for 90% of the things you seek. Because those desires of anitya vastu vanish when there is consciousness of the presence of the nitya Ishvara: your interest transfers to knowing or relating to this Ishvara rather than the cream-coloured lollipop. There is a bit of viveka and vairagya for you.

So I said, we can remind ourselves that everything we do with intent or goal is a form of prayer/upasana to the Lord, and not to some hocus-pocus physical jada universe. Then ask the question "Should I be praying to the Lord in this elaborate yagnya for this type of result?" And such perspective and questioning can aid in viveka and vairagya, as I outlined above.

thollmelukaalkizhu

 

It could be contended that reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the phaladhaata may not lead to viveka and vairagya. I am assuming here that the viveka and vairagya you are referring to are nitya-anitya viveka (discrimination between the permanent and the ephemeral) and vairagya (dispassion) toward the ephemeral that arises out of such viveka. 

How so?

Suppose we remind ourselves everytime we perform a karma, like getting an ice-cream, for example, that it is because of Ishwara that we are able to get the ice-cream, enjoy its taste, and derive pleasure. This will only make us dependent on Ishwara for all our pleasures while performing any karma toward attaining those pleasures, even if done so as an upasana. Even the pleasure of being a bhaktha is included in this set of pleasures. Even a Jiva's attainment of Kailsha or Vaikuntha and the "moksha" of being always near the Lord is such a pleasure. In all these pleasures, there is a dependence of the Jiva on the Ishwara because the Jiva thinks "I am the doer who is performing this karma / upasana" and "I am the enjoyer of the phala that Ishwara provides". This corresponds to the Dvaitin view that there is a Paramatama (Ishwara) who is a svatantra (independent) entity and the other Jivas are paratantra (dependent) entities. In such a view, the Jivas are always dependent on the Paramatma. Moreover, the Jivas and Paramatma are all considered real and permanent. This clearly does not match with the viveka of Advaita, which establishes that only the Atman is permanent and real and that everything else is ephemeral and therefore illusory. Without such a nitya-anitya viveka, vairagya is also not possible because a Jiva will always be assumed to be dependent on the Paramatma, even while in the supposed "Moksha" of being in Kailasha or Vaikuntha (because the Jiva needs the Ishwara to be present there to be able to have the pleasure of worshipping Him). While the Jiva's bhakti to Ishwara may have replaced its interest in other pleasures, the Jiva still derives pleasure out of worshipping with the notion of "I am the worshipper of Ishwara" and "Ishwara provides me the refuge that I seek". The Jiva does not realise the oneness of the Atma of the Jiva and the Atma of the Ishwara, and remains dependent on Ishwara, because the Jiva does not have the vairagya to let go of the last remaining thing, which is its Bhakti to Ishwara. 

Therefore, simply reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata and performing all karma as an upasana to Him does not lead to nitya-anitya viveka and vairagya. This is why it is also of practical relevance for an Advaitin, not just theoretical.

On the other hand, if one dedicates all of what one assumes is the doer (e.g., You are my Atma, etc.) and the enjoyer (e.g., all the pleasures of my senses are for Your pooja, etc.) to Ishwara, like how Shankaracharya does in the quote by Sri Venkatraghavan-ji from Sivamanasapuja, then such an upasana naturally assigns all doership and enjoyership to Ishwara. This strikes at the root of ajnana, which is the assumption that "I am the doer of karma" and "I am the enjoyer of karmaphala", by asserting that the doer of the karma is also Ishwara and the enjoyer is also Ishwara. By doing so, it removes this ajnana and reveals the true nature of the Upasaka, which is neither a doer of actions nor an enjoyer of fruits. 

I am not saying that it is useless to remind ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata. This is certainly useful because it reminds us that there is a higher being that determines the results of our actions. It also helps us in following the Shaastras and the Dharma which are none other than Ishwara's prescriptions for us. Following them will make a Jiva eventually realise the ephemeral nature of the pleasures of the world around us. This will make the Jiva start to yearn for something permanent, to become a mumukshu, to become truly independent. At this point, the Jiva's attention happens to fall on Vedanta and one learns about the Mahavakyas that point to the identity of the Atma (the Jiva's Self) and Brahman (everything around the Jiva). Reflecting on these statements, the Jiva concludes that holding onto the concept of Ishwara as a separate entity on which the Jiva is dependent is contradictory to these statements that assert the oneness of these entities. Therefore, in realising the Advaita moksha the notions of Jiva, Ishwara, karma, phala, etc. are naturally lost. 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 5:22 PM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

I probably meant it slightly differently than how you put it since I see this Upasana (as I initially proposed it) leading to (“inner transformation”) viveka and vairagya for the sadhaka. Perhaps in tantra, there are modes of worship where one tries to invoke the presence of Ishvara within the practice of sensual enjoyment for indeed He is the source/substratum/power of all. But I meant in a more preliminary sense, where the frivolous karma we typically indulge in when not thinking of Ishvara, we may have greater viveka and vairagya towards them when we realize and remind ourselves methodically all such karma as upasana of the Lord since Vedanta teaches that He is the karmaphaladata. Our bhakti to Him replaces and dissuades our interest in them; energies become focused and channelized; gaps and leaks are shut.

Now if the question is “why have vairagya from any of this when all is Ishvara svarupa?” etc., that can be a separate thread; it will likely be of theoretical interest to others. 

thollmelukaalkizhu

n on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAC%2BJcJJDDESzH58%3Dgs110b1sU0zppTwp%3DYAtiTCfpzs2kH4YKA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Vinodh]

Thank you once again for your clarification, Sri Putran ji. You have expressed very well how thinking of Ishwara as karmaphaladhaata aids the Jiva in developing viveka (that the Ishwara is the nitya vastu) and vairagya (toward mundane things of desire). I agree with all of that completely. 

My point was relating to the technical difference between Dvaita and Advaita Vedanta, which becomes relevant at the very last stages of a sadhaka before Advaita Moksha. However, for the most part until that stage, this difference is irrelevant and thinking of Ishwara in all our karmas is indeed important. 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 12:57 AM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

I don't want to get into the details of your full mail. I look at this topic at a basic sadhaka level where too much advaita technicality is not going to matter. I will give a summary of my thinking for the basic question.

In this case, I have the following question. Perhaps one may consider this theoretical (although I do not), but it is not entirely clear to me how viveka and vairagya would arise by reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata in all our karma and therefore perform karma as an upasana to Ishwara. 

We have to approach this from the position of a jiva for whom Ishvara is as real as your mother is real to you. And in the presence of your mother, how will you talk, act, behave? What will you watch on TV? And if you have to ask of your mother - say, the Lord of your home, what will you ask for, a cigarette? According to the nature of the relationship, our behaviour is solidly modified in the presence of the other. It is not a logical choice in many cases. There are some limits that we or our body-mind simply cannot cross in the presence of our mother; and there are some emotions that we simply cannot experience expect with mother. 

My point is that we should not be simplistic in underestimating the efficacy of bhakti. If the jiva has that bhakti to Ishvara (as its source, the Ruler of its Home, who works non-stop that this jiva can clear its karmic balance and eventually attain moksha, i.e. transcend His domain) and is conscious of His presence in all its activities, naturally that will ("spiritualize") have a profound effect in the jiva's body-mind. The nitya vastu for the Jiva, life after life until it attains moksha, is Ishvara; any vision of existence that is devoid of the awareness of Consciousness-shakti aka Ishvara, is anitya. And desires for this anitya will naturally vanish or alter profoundly when there is consciousness of the presence of nitya Ishvara. So, the bhakti to Ishvara will aid in viveka-vairagya of a sadhaka.

Now our trouble is that unlike mother, we don't seem to have a natural way of mentally experiencing the reality of Ishvara. We see a bunch of body-mind jivas and an apparently jada universe that science seems to map out reasonably well. Anything beyond, that suggests an underlying Reality that manifests all this existence, with a profound karma-karmaphala causality focused on the resolution of karma-obstructions of these mini jivas in this mini-earth, all that and however you put it, seems mystical, not directly accessible. Ishvara has to be known through shastra, how to understand Him, how to relate to Him, etc. 

I remember Samskrita Bharati session: "Ishvarah kutra asti?" Students say: "Ishvarah sarvatra asti". So, we have to teach ourselves to see/know Ishvara everywhere and in everything, to relate to Him as Lord, Mother, Friend, etc. One intimate way of knowing Him is as the Karmaphaladata. What's intimate about this!?! Tag on Mother if you wish, but He is the One who gives phala for our actions past and present. Every karma we do, with a purpose, goal, desire for result - whether it be a huge project at work or the smallest indulgence in a thought for a ego-boost - we don't know it perhaps but we are formally praying to Him for the phala through an upasana - a method of worship for the sake of attaining a certain phala. 

But if you knew that you are asking your Mother, the only karmaphaladata, constantly and incessantly through such upasana, perhaps you will rightaway cease the request-petition for 90% of the things you seek. Because those desires of anitya vastu vanish when there is consciousness of the presence of the nitya Ishvara: your interest transfers to knowing or relating to this Ishvara rather than the cream-coloured lollipop. There is a bit of viveka and vairagya for you.

So I said, we can remind ourselves that everything we do with intent or goal is a form of prayer/upasana to the Lord, and not to some hocus-pocus physical jada universe. Then ask the question "Should I be praying to the Lord in this elaborate yagnya for this type of result?" And such perspective and questioning can aid in viveka and vairagya, as I outlined above.

thollmelukaalkizhu

 

It could be contended that reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the phaladhaata may not lead to viveka and vairagya. I am assuming here that the viveka and vairagya you are referring to are nitya-anitya viveka (discrimination between the permanent and the ephemeral) and vairagya (dispassion) toward the ephemeral that arises out of such viveka. 

How so?

Suppose we remind ourselves everytime we perform a karma, like getting an ice-cream, for example, that it is because of Ishwara that we are able to get the ice-cream, enjoy its taste, and derive pleasure. This will only make us dependent on Ishwara for all our pleasures while performing any karma toward attaining those pleasures, even if done so as an upasana. Even the pleasure of being a bhaktha is included in this set of pleasures. Even a Jiva's attainment of Kailsha or Vaikuntha and the "moksha" of being always near the Lord is such a pleasure. In all these pleasures, there is a dependence of the Jiva on the Ishwara because the Jiva thinks "I am the doer who is performing this karma / upasana" and "I am the enjoyer of the phala that Ishwara provides". This corresponds to the Dvaitin view that there is a Paramatama (Ishwara) who is a svatantra (independent) entity and the other Jivas are paratantra (dependent) entities. In such a view, the Jivas are always dependent on the Paramatma. Moreover, the Jivas and Paramatma are all considered real and permanent. This clearly does not match with the viveka of Advaita, which establishes that only the Atman is permanent and real and that everything else is ephemeral and therefore illusory. Without such a nitya-anitya viveka, vairagya is also not possible because a Jiva will always be assumed to be dependent on the Paramatma, even while in the supposed "Moksha" of being in Kailasha or Vaikuntha (because the Jiva needs the Ishwara to be present there to be able to have the pleasure of worshipping Him). While the Jiva's bhakti to Ishwara may have replaced its interest in other pleasures, the Jiva still derives pleasure out of worshipping with the notion of "I am the worshipper of Ishwara" and "Ishwara provides me the refuge that I seek". The Jiva does not realise the oneness of the Atma of the Jiva and the Atma of the Ishwara, and remains dependent on Ishwara, because the Jiva does not have the vairagya to let go of the last remaining thing, which is its Bhakti to Ishwara. 

Therefore, simply reminding ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata and performing all karma as an upasana to Him does not lead to nitya-anitya viveka and vairagya. This is why it is also of practical relevance for an Advaitin, not just theoretical.

On the other hand, if one dedicates all of what one assumes is the doer (e.g., You are my Atma, etc.) and the enjoyer (e.g., all the pleasures of my senses are for Your pooja, etc.) to Ishwara, like how Shankaracharya does in the quote by Sri Venkatraghavan-ji from Sivamanasapuja, then such an upasana naturally assigns all doership and enjoyership to Ishwara. This strikes at the root of ajnana, which is the assumption that "I am the doer of karma" and "I am the enjoyer of karmaphala", by asserting that the doer of the karma is also Ishwara and the enjoyer is also Ishwara. By doing so, it removes this ajnana and reveals the true nature of the Upasaka, which is neither a doer of actions nor an enjoyer of fruits. 

I am not saying that it is useless to remind ourselves that Ishwara is the karmaphaladhaata. This is certainly useful because it reminds us that there is a higher being that determines the results of our actions. It also helps us in following the Shaastras and the Dharma which are none other than Ishwara's prescriptions for us. Following them will make a Jiva eventually realise the ephemeral nature of the pleasures of the world around us. This will make the Jiva start to yearn for something permanent, to become a mumukshu, to become truly independent. At this point, the Jiva's attention happens to fall on Vedanta and one learns about the Mahavakyas that point to the identity of the Atma (the Jiva's Self) and Brahman (everything around the Jiva). Reflecting on these statements, the Jiva concludes that holding onto the concept of Ishwara as a separate entity on which the Jiva is dependent is contradictory to these statements that assert the oneness of these entities. Therefore, in realising the Advaita moksha the notions of Jiva, Ishwara, karma, phala, etc. are naturally lost. 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 5:22 PM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram Vinodh-ji,

I probably meant it slightly differently than how you put it since I see this Upasana (as I initially proposed it) leading to (“inner transformation”) viveka and vairagya for the sadhaka. Perhaps in tantra, there are modes of worship where one tries to invoke the presence of Ishvara within the practice of sensual enjoyment for indeed He is the source/substratum/power of all. But I meant in a more preliminary sense, where the frivolous karma we typically indulge in when not thinking of Ishvara, we may have greater viveka and vairagya towards them when we realize and remind ourselves methodically all such karma as upasana of the Lord since Vedanta teaches that He is the karmaphaladata. Our bhakti to Him replaces and dissuades our interest in them; energies become focused and channelized; gaps and leaks are shut.

Now if the question is “why have vairagya from any of this when all is Ishvara svarupa?” etc., that can be a separate thread; it will likely be of theoretical interest to others. 

thollmelukaalkizhu

n on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAC%2BJcJJDDESzH58%3Dgs110b1sU0zppTwp%3DYAtiTCfpzs2kH4YKA%40mail.gmail.com.

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[putran M]

Namaskaram, 

The Goddess Kali appears terrible; She seems to embody death and destruction, the fearful elements of life. Yet Hindus worship Her as the same Mother of Existence as Parvathi, Lakshmi, etc. In spite of the terrible outer form, the devotee is not repulsed or scared but rather finds an ecstatic ananda, seeing and contemplating on Her. 

I look at Kali as She manifests in life, the opposite of the 'Pleasant', the Preyas. And I do not find Ananda. 

All is Brahman and Brahman is sat-chit-ananda: the knowledge should release me from fundamentally differentiating the self in one form from another, so that I am content/fulfilled in seeing the same Lord however He/She is presently manifest - whether as Kali or Parvathi, as sugar or salt, as internet or no-internet, as Yudhishtira or Duruyodhana. 

However the intellectual affirmation of the non-dual adhishtana, based on superficial knowledge, fails to overcome the gravity of my vasanas. They invariably posit 'ananda' in certain nama-rupas and unhappiness/misery in others. 

I find greater joy in the world of sports, greater meaning in religio-political fighting, greater attraction sitting in front of a screened machine continuously, than in reading the shastras, doing my nitya karma, communing with my Ishta-devata, in letting dharma and mumukshatvam determine the path for my thoughts and actions ...

Or simpler yet, than in just affirming advaita tattva even as the vasanas harass the compromised mind. Why, it is a movie! All this is quite clearly anitya, a show of Consciousness taking on various temporal identities. I can intellectually comprehend the mithyatva even. But to what avail? I still want the movie to move in one direction, still have my heroes and villains, still get disappointed and disturbed when it doesn't go 'my way'. I am quite intent and desirous of running the mind in the same cycles of titillations. 

Why am I not finding ananda in Knowledge of the Real and complete detachment from the ups and downs of the movie? 

There is an unwillingness to let go of the false and affirm the true constantly. It is always too easy and too near at hand to re-drug the system with the same old sense-objects and movie themes for that quick dose of pleasure and postpone the shreyas path - which must be one of no return. If I were to abstain from the trodden paths of delusion, I would feel miserable in the restlessness of the fears wrought by Self-Ignorance, and soon yearn to fall back and escape into the movie. So the battle continues, back and forth, years and years of life are lost dashing at mental walls and moving no further. 

Not all the Gold in the palace could balance Krishna as a tulsi leaf with the chanting of His name. Not more and more of books and talk, but the right sadhana is needed to back up the message, the right renunciations and abidance in svadharma as shown by shastra (or our best understanding of it in the uncertain contexts of our life) - all of which, can they be centered in unbroken mananam of satyam-jnanam-anantam brahma? That is the test, the challenge; success I imagine will correlate with a continuous ananda that follows from the conscious awareness of being rooted in the Knowledge of immutable Self/Reality.

thollmelukaalkizhu

PS. [Although written as self-analysis, the "I" is meant to be representative of spiritual aspirants caught in samsara.]

[Aravinda Rao]

It is almost like forceful poetry pouring out from your heart, Putran ji. You have given expression to the predicament of all sadhakas who comprehend the mithyatva intellectually, but cannot feel it in daily life. I have to confess that I am in the same predicament. 

Aravinda Rao

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 10:58 AM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram, 

The Goddess Kali appears terrible; She seems to embody death and destruction, the fearful elements of life. Yet Hindus worship Her as the same Mother of Existence as Parvathi, Lakshmi, etc. In spite of the terrible outer form, the devotee is not repulsed or scared but rather finds an ecstatic ananda, seeing and contemplating on Her. 

I look at Kali as She manifests in life, the opposite of the 'Pleasant', the Preyas. And I do not find Ananda. 

All is Brahman and Brahman is sat-chit-ananda: the knowledge should release me from fundamentally differentiating the self in one form from another, so that I am content/fulfilled in seeing the same Lord however He/She is presently manifest - whether as Kali or Parvathi, as sugar or salt, as internet or no-internet, as Yudhishtira or Duruyodhana. 

However the intellectual affirmation of the non-dual adhishtana, based on superficial knowledge, fails to overcome the gravity of my vasanas. They invariably posit 'ananda' in certain nama-rupas and unhappiness/misery in others. 

I find greater joy in the world of sports, greater meaning in religio-political fighting, greater attraction sitting in front of a screened machine continuously, than in reading the shastras, doing my nitya karma, communing with my Ishta-devata, in letting dharma and mumukshatvam determine the path for my thoughts and actions ...

Or simpler yet, than in just affirming advaita tattva even as the vasanas harass the compromised mind. Why, it is a movie! All this is quite clearly anitya, a show of Consciousness taking on various temporal identities. I can intellectually comprehend the mithyatva even. But to what avail? I still want the movie to move in one direction, still have my heroes and villains, still get disappointed and disturbed when it doesn't go 'my way'. I am quite intent and desirous of running the mind in the same cycles of titillations. 

Why am I not finding ananda in Knowledge of the Real and complete detachment from the ups and downs of the movie? 

There is an unwillingness to let go of the false and affirm the true constantly. It is always too easy and too near at hand to re-drug the system with the same old sense-objects and movie themes for that quick dose of pleasure and postpone the shreyas path - which must be one of no return. If I were to abstain from the trodden paths of delusion, I would feel miserable in the restlessness of the fears wrought by Self-Ignorance, and soon yearn to fall back and escape into the movie. So the battle continues, back and forth, years and years of life are lost dashing at mental walls and moving no further. 

Not all the Gold in the palace could balance Krishna as a tulsi leaf with the chanting of His name. Not more and more of books and talk, but the right sadhana is needed to back up the message, the right renunciations and abidance in svadharma as shown by shastra (or our best understanding of it in the uncertain contexts of our life) - all of which, can they be centered in unbroken mananam of satyam-jnanam-anantam brahma? That is the test, the challenge; success I imagine will correlate with a continuous ananda that follows from the conscious awareness of being rooted in the Knowledge of immutable Self/Reality.

thollmelukaalkizhu

PS. [Although written as self-analysis, the "I" is meant to be representative of spiritual aspirants caught in samsara.]

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 9:11 AM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram,

The few words that perhaps are easy for the intellect to admire (or scoff at) don't get assimilated. The system keeps rejecting them, confusing them, no matter how much and in how many ways we try to push them in. We strike a wall of resistance. Life exposes us again and again. 

The essence of Religion in terms of words and logical description is probably simple. We seem to be saying one thing variously, trying to impress and appeal by logic, intuition or grand constructions; but in a way it is repeated variously because that one thing is being opposed internally, either because it is itself false or because we are having shraddha elsewhere from this truth. Its depth, difficulty, complexity is not revealed by models, equations, theorems; just by the mere fact that despite all our formulations we remain anchored verily in what is deemed Ignorance in those formulations. It is almost embarrassing often times. 

The biggest sorcerers of intellectual whataboutery in our world, yup the same lost dummies from the standpoint of this Religion and its proclaimed Knowledge. Such folk and their fans don’t win applause here.

Realization is said to effect a perennial stabilization in, a perfect synchronization with Truth. For us however the smallest twist in life and the buffoon desperate for his smallness leaps back out. Same desires, same fears, willingly and knowingly we return to our old form as if that is exactly where we belong. 

Why are we thus opposed to this Knowledge? Obstructions everywhere to its assimilation. It seems in spite of all these cogitations, we can’t separate what is real and what is make-believe, can't believe the stated problem as the problem, the solution as solution, the path or process to achieve it, nor that we can or should follow it. That all this talk is more than a imagined "Theory". That if we had full awareness of certain Knowledge in the way it is to be had, we will obtain liberation from sorrow here and now, because ignorance is the cause of sorrow. In a hocus-pocus that if we had that realization, it will cut the knots of the heart asunder and end the “embodied atma's” search for new destinations (bodies) in search of freedom, peace, fullness - the knowledge having eliminated all notion of embodiment and limitation.

The theory is nice. Perhaps a coherent universe could be modeled on it. But surely not this, not mine?

But then the Religion says ours is that Universe. And so we continue the talk, the regurgitation, the reiteration, the repeated resurrection of shraddha and sadhana, no matter the setbacks. There must be light at the end of the tunnel, as they say.

(this came out a bit of a whining rant. The “we” is generic, not necessarily reflecting my present state of mind.)

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[putran M]

Namaskaram Aravinda Rao-ji,

Yes, we are all dealing with this tug of war. If I look at the original writing from nearly a year back (below this one), it is pretty much the same complaint; only a year has passed by. This time, I am cutting out certain internet routes and the mind is suffering from withdrawal symptoms and it led to what you call "poetry pouring out" - the silliness of myself is too amusing sometimes. We add baggages and burdens and hew and haw about throwing them off! 

We should however look at it positively as well, that we are that close to effecting advaitic mananam into our lives and leaping forward in sadhana. Our sravanam has given us a tremendous advantage already. Most of the trouble is simply this mind; we have to commit to its chess game using our sravanam. I have some shraddha that Ishvara will reveal the crack in the wall at the appropriate time (well, why not now); we just have to be ready and willing to punch our way through - then do it. Key is to be prepared in the details sufficiently that we don't fall back trivially.

thollmelukaalkizhu

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[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

PraNAms - this is a common problem for most of us.

 Hence Swami Paramarthanandaji calls this as FIR reduction - As one progresses, it is difficult to measure on a day-to-day basis - one only sees ups and downs.

 As nidhidhyaasana continues, slowly the FIR gets reduced. F= Frequency of perturbation, I= intensity of perturbation, and R= recovery time from perturbation decreases. 

It is not a discrete process but occurs slowly depending on the purity (or impurity) of the mind. 

The problem appears to be even more as one ages and when the pains of the body become slowly unmanageable. 

I am reminded of Shree Kulashekara Alwar sloka in Mukundamaala - The last two lines - 

praaNa prayaana samaye kaphavaata pittaiH kanTaavarodhanapidhou smaraNam kutaste||

Hence he says - chitayaami harimeva santatam - Essentially keep reflecting on the sat chit ananda swaruupam of oneself - to the extent mind can do and leave the rest to HIM. 

My 2c

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Putranji and friends,

You wrote as follows:

The Goddess Kali appears terrible; She seems to embody death and destruction, the fearful elements of life. Yet Hindus worship Her as the same Mother of Existence as Parvathi, Lakshmi, etc. In spite of the terrible outer form, the devotee is not repulsed or scared but rather finds an ecstatic ananda, seeing and contemplating on Her. 

I look at Kali as She manifests in life, the opposite of the 'Pleasant', the Preyas. And I do not find Ananda.

That is how most people visualize mother Kali's role, but why not look from another angle. When Uddalaka, (who taught his son Svetaketu, the nature of Brahman), attained Videhamukti, Mother Kali danced with joy (as the Yogavasistha Maharamayana tells us), when one of her worthy sons attained the oneness with Brahman. Mother Kali (whom the Tantras tell us to be the Female Roopa of Lord Krishna) immediately took Uddalaka's skull to adorn her garland of skulls, This is the Mother Kali, who wants all of her children to follow Uddalaka's way and be one with the Brahman, which she Herself is, though we see her differently because of Her Maya. 

JAI MA KALI

my 2 cents

sunil kb

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:28 PM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram, 

The Goddess Kali appears terrible; She seems to embody death and destruction, the fearful elements of life. Yet Hindus worship Her as the same Mother of Existence as Parvathi, Lakshmi, etc. In spite of the terrible outer form, the devotee is not repulsed or scared but rather finds an ecstatic ananda, seeing and contemplating on Her. 

I look at Kali as She manifests in life, the opposite of the 'Pleasant', the Preyas. And I do not find Ananda. 

All is Brahman and Brahman is sat-chit-ananda: the knowledge should release me from fundamentally differentiating the self in one form from another, so that I am content/fulfilled in seeing the same Lord however He/She is presently manifest - whether as Kali or Parvathi, as sugar or salt, as internet or no-internet, as Yudhishtira or Duruyodhana. 

However the intellectual affirmation of the non-dual adhishtana, based on superficial knowledge, fails to overcome the gravity of my vasanas. They invariably posit 'ananda' in certain nama-rupas and unhappiness/misery in others. 

I find greater joy in the world of sports, greater meaning in religio-political fighting, greater attraction sitting in front of a screened machine continuously, than in reading the shastras, doing my nitya karma, communing with my Ishta-devata, in letting dharma and mumukshatvam determine the path for my thoughts and actions ...

Or simpler yet, than in just affirming advaita tattva even as the vasanas harass the compromised mind. Why, it is a movie! All this is quite clearly anitya, a show of Consciousness taking on various temporal identities. I can intellectually comprehend the mithyatva even. But to what avail? I still want the movie to move in one direction, still have my heroes and villains, still get disappointed and disturbed when it doesn't go 'my way'. I am quite intent and desirous of running the mind in the same cycles of titillations. 

Why am I not finding ananda in Knowledge of the Real and complete detachment from the ups and downs of the movie? 

There is an unwillingness to let go of the false and affirm the true constantly. It is always too easy and too near at hand to re-drug the system with the same old sense-objects and movie themes for that quick dose of pleasure and postpone the shreyas path - which must be one of no return. If I were to abstain from the trodden paths of delusion, I would feel miserable in the restlessness of the fears wrought by Self-Ignorance, and soon yearn to fall back and escape into the movie. So the battle continues, back and forth, years and years of life are lost dashing at mental walls and moving no further. 

Not all the Gold in the palace could balance Krishna as a tulsi leaf with the chanting of His name. Not more and more of books and talk, but the right sadhana is needed to back up the message, the right renunciations and abidance in svadharma as shown by shastra (or our best understanding of it in the uncertain contexts of our life) - all of which, can they be centered in unbroken mananam of satyam-jnanam-anantam brahma? That is the test, the challenge; success I imagine will correlate with a continuous ananda that follows from the conscious awareness of being rooted in the Knowledge of immutable Self/Reality.

thollmelukaalkizhu

PS. [Although written as self-analysis, the "I" is meant to be representative of spiritual aspirants caught in samsara.]

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 9:11 AM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram,

The few words that perhaps are easy for the intellect to admire (or scoff at) don't get assimilated. The system keeps rejecting them, confusing them, no matter how much and in how many ways we try to push them in. We strike a wall of resistance. Life exposes us again and again. 

The essence of Religion in terms of words and logical description is probably simple. We seem to be saying one thing variously, trying to impress and appeal by logic, intuition or grand constructions; but in a way it is repeated variously because that one thing is being opposed internally, either because it is itself false or because we are having shraddha elsewhere from this truth. Its depth, difficulty, complexity is not revealed by models, equations, theorems; just by the mere fact that despite all our formulations we remain anchored verily in what is deemed Ignorance in those formulations. It is almost embarrassing often times. 

The biggest sorcerers of intellectual whataboutery in our world, yup the same lost dummies from the standpoint of this Religion and its proclaimed Knowledge. Such folk and their fans don’t win applause here.

Realization is said to effect a perennial stabilization in, a perfect synchronization with Truth. For us however the smallest twist in life and the buffoon desperate for his smallness leaps back out. Same desires, same fears, willingly and knowingly we return to our old form as if that is exactly where we belong. 

Why are we thus opposed to this Knowledge? Obstructions everywhere to its assimilation. It seems in spite of all these cogitations, we can’t separate what is real and what is make-believe, can't believe the stated problem as the problem, the solution as solution, the path or process to achieve it, nor that we can or should follow it. That all this talk is more than a imagined "Theory". That if we had full awareness of certain Knowledge in the way it is to be had, we will obtain liberation from sorrow here and now, because ignorance is the cause of sorrow. In a hocus-pocus that if we had that realization, it will cut the knots of the heart asunder and end the “embodied atma's” search for new destinations (bodies) in search of freedom, peace, fullness - the knowledge having eliminated all notion of embodiment and limitation.

The theory is nice. Perhaps a coherent universe could be modeled on it. But surely not this, not mine?

But then the Religion says ours is that Universe. And so we continue the talk, the regurgitation, the reiteration, the repeated resurrection of shraddha and sadhana, no matter the setbacks. There must be light at the end of the tunnel, as they say.

(this came out a bit of a whining rant. The “we” is generic, not necessarily reflecting my present state of mind.)

thollmelukaalkizhu

[putran M]

Namaskaram Sunil-ji,

When Uddalaka, (who taught his son Svetaketu, the nature of Brahman), attained Videhamukti, Mother Kali danced with joy (as the Yogavasistha Maharamayana tells us), when one of her worthy sons attained the oneness with Brahman. Mother Kali (whom the Tantras tell us to be the Female Roopa of Lord Krishna) immediately took Uddalaka's skull to adorn her garland of skulls, This is the Mother Kali, who wants all of her children to follow Uddalaka's way and be one with the Brahman, which she Herself is, though we see her differently because of Her Maya. 

This reminded me of a song of Ramprasad that I had read in the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

https://thecosmicmother.org/2016/02/19/o-shyama-thou-art-flying-kites/

Out of a hundred thousand kites,
at best but one or two break free;
And thou dost laugh and clap Thy hands,
O Mother, watching them!

thollmelukaalkizhu

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Putranji,

Thanl you for this nice piece on Mother Kali by Ramprasa Sen.

I also appreciate your following statement:

I find greater joy in the world of sports, greater meaning in religio-political fighting, greater attraction sitting in front of a screened machine continuously, than in  . . . . 

However,  sometimes the religio-political fighting  takes pathetic turns. Take the case of  the great animosity (arising out of jealousy) of the Sringeri math against the benign Kanchi Kamakoti math, which pains us the Advaitins.

Why the Sringeri Math is against the Kanchi Kamakoti Math

The history of this animosity is as follows. After setting up the four Amnaya mathas for the four disciples, Adi Shankara went to Kanchipuram, which is considered to be the Kashi of the South. Adi Shankara wrote his last bhasya on the Lalita Trishati and he set up a Shri-Chakra in the Lalita Devi temple in Kanchipuram. Though Adi Shankara might not have pre-planned a fifth Shankara- Matha, he found a promising young boy who appeared to him to be suitable to be a future Mathadhipati in Kanchipuram, and accordingly Adi Shankara trained this boy as a new disciple in Kanchipuram and he had to call Shri  Sureshvaracharya from Dwarka  to Kanchipuram,  to look after this young disciple,after Adi Shankara's taking Samadhi. That is how Sureshvaracharya succeeded Adi Shankara as the mathadhipati of the Kanchi Kamakoti Math. Later on the Mathadhipati of the Shringeri math wanted to retire in the Kasi of the South (i.e., Kanchipurama) and he requested Shri Sureshvaracharya to relieve him. That is How Sureshvaracharya became  the second mathadhipati of Shringeri math. Since late 19th century AD, the  Swamijis of the Sringeri math  became more egoistic and  they wanted to be the sole Shankara math in the South. So the Shringeri math started calling the Kanchi Kamakoti math as fake and all that. This is the root- cause of the animosity, which the Sringeri math has for the Kanchi Kamakoti math. 

There is yet another reason for which the Singeri math is more furious against the Kanchi Kamakoti math, as the latter had the great Scholar, Abhinava Shankara in the 8th century AD, who was a great versatile personality like Adi Shankara. This Abhinaba shankara was the author of the Bhagavad Gita Bhasya. All these reasons made the Sringeri math mad in anger against the Kanchi Kamakoti math and the Sringeri math falsely claims Adi Sankara to be born in the 8 th century AD, even though Adi Shankara was actally born in 509 BCE.

Such religio-political fighting is unwelcome in any civilized society.

My 2 cents

skb

a

skb

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[putran M]

Namaskaram,

The below was sent to me by a member as a private mail; am posting it without mentioning his name. If members have any further comments regarding the understanding of Ananda visavis Brahman (referred to as sat-chit-ananda), the jiva and a jnani, they can elaborate.

Quote

When the mind is strong , I have seen similar flow of thought. Why do we think we need Ananda? - is the question we must ask ourselves- to quell this thought.

If such an Ananda is 'felt' then it is only mithya.

Prakruti is neutral even in its ebbs and tide since its essence 'Brahman' does not experience the effects though it 'as though' joins the journey of Prakruti. I often feel I am at once the observer who projects "the one who  experiences and reports" what is happening in his realm and also decides what is good and bad and tells himself or herself to do Preyas or Shreyas. 

I have nothing to do but journey along without giving up my identity. 

FIR is a good measure but an even better measure is are beings happy around you. This is a good measure of the Jiva's progress. 

It does not matter in the end whether you(Jiva) feel good about it or feel bad when you perceive differently. You (Brahman) were/are/will be always free.

Why bother where this body falls ( extend to say - 'lives') either in the gutter or in holy Ganges.

Thank you for the post.

With loving pranams.

Om tat sat.

[Name] (the Jiva) on behalf of ourselves (B). 😀

Unquote

thollmelukaalkizhu