Sleep and Awareness
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Gary
Aug 31, 2010, 1:52:30 PM8/31/10
to AdvaitaNow
I think this one causes some confusion.
Does awareness go away in sleep? Does awareness change?
Does awareness go away in sleep? Does awareness change?
Mahakali
Aug 31, 2010, 2:23:39 PM8/31/10
to AdvaitaNow
Gary wrote:
...
>Does awareness change?
No. It moves all the time...
Yours..
Kali
...
> Does awareness go away in sleep?
Only if you think about it...
>Does awareness change?
No. It moves all the time...
Yours..
Kali
empty2
Aug 31, 2010, 6:26:31 PM8/31/10
to AdvaitaNow
Immediate thought here is, - away from where/what?
And just to be different, Kali, - does it change? - no!
And just to be different, Kali, - does it change? - no!
Mark Ty-Wharton
Aug 31, 2010, 8:03:19 PM8/31/10
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Thanks for pointing that out :-)
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Gary
Sep 1, 2010, 8:08:57 PM9/1/10
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I asked the question because many think that awareness is not present
in sleep. Of course, awareness never changes, but the mind states
alter. Another way to say this is that thought happens in awareness
and when thoughts (I'm including all mental activity) quiet there is
awareness. So, there are two seeming states. Mental activity within
awareness and silence n awareness. So, I ask you this question, how
is it that one can be aware, without object and know that this is
happening? How can there be the experience of pure awareness? I
hesitate to call this experience in that the boundary of subject/
object is not present.
in sleep. Of course, awareness never changes, but the mind states
alter. Another way to say this is that thought happens in awareness
and when thoughts (I'm including all mental activity) quiet there is
awareness. So, there are two seeming states. Mental activity within
awareness and silence n awareness. So, I ask you this question, how
is it that one can be aware, without object and know that this is
happening? How can there be the experience of pure awareness? I
hesitate to call this experience in that the boundary of subject/
object is not present.
Mahakali
Sep 2, 2010, 2:58:58 AM9/2/10
to AdvaitaNow
Gary
if you open your hand,you bat or blink an eyelid or get up the chair
you were sitting on, were you present as a subject when that happened?
Did you decide to open your hand or did the hand just opened and,
then, you noticed/realized it?
When you just moved from the chair, was it a subject and an object
being present or was it just getting up/moving?
Of course, on second thoughts, the mind can make it an experience or a
story out of anything, even out of moving a finger or opening the palm
of a hand. All is needed is to recognize that the mind can make
stories out everything. The important thing is to stay within the
description rather than make it a prescription.
Love
Kali
if you open your hand,you bat or blink an eyelid or get up the chair
you were sitting on, were you present as a subject when that happened?
Did you decide to open your hand or did the hand just opened and,
then, you noticed/realized it?
When you just moved from the chair, was it a subject and an object
being present or was it just getting up/moving?
Of course, on second thoughts, the mind can make it an experience or a
story out of anything, even out of moving a finger or opening the palm
of a hand. All is needed is to recognize that the mind can make
stories out everything. The important thing is to stay within the
description rather than make it a prescription.
Love
Kali
godszen
Sep 2, 2010, 4:24:07 AM9/2/10
to AdvaitaNow
David said that in very deep awakening's, one is
aware that they are asleep,
aware that they are asleep,
empty2
Sep 2, 2010, 7:26:38 AM9/2/10
to AdvaitaNow
>how is it that one can be aware, without object and know that this is
happening?
Hi Gary, - how indeed? To talk of a 'one' being aware and knowing it
happening?
is inappropriate imo. If 'ones' happen at all, as you say, they happen
in awareness, but awareness, though being all of them, is not one of
them!
Gary
Sep 2, 2010, 11:26:37 AM9/2/10
to AdvaitaNow
I think that you meant 'is not exclusively one of them.' Please
correct me if this is not what you meant.
I find this aspect of awareness/duality to be without explanation. As
Kali points out, it is just another story. The 'experience' of pure
awareness does seem as if awareness is cognizing itself. This would
be in line with the "inappropriate" nature of talking "of a 'one'
being aware and knowing it."
correct me if this is not what you meant.
I find this aspect of awareness/duality to be without explanation. As
Kali points out, it is just another story. The 'experience' of pure
awareness does seem as if awareness is cognizing itself. This would
be in line with the "inappropriate" nature of talking "of a 'one'
being aware and knowing it."
empty2
Sep 2, 2010, 6:19:24 PM9/2/10
to AdvaitaNow
I think I meant that awareness without objects is by definition
without a subject (one). As you say, without explanation. a mystery
for a 'one' who, as Kali says, thinks about it. End of story!
(sorry, I've just been watching 'Horton Hears a Who')
without a subject (one). As you say, without explanation. a mystery
for a 'one' who, as Kali says, thinks about it. End of story!
(sorry, I've just been watching 'Horton Hears a Who')
Gary
Sep 2, 2010, 7:10:27 PM9/2/10
to AdvaitaNow
Fun movie... If you like New Orleans jazz... try The Princess and the
Frog.
Frog.
empty2
Sep 3, 2010, 5:23:34 AM9/3/10
to AdvaitaNow
Sounds fun, will do.
>The 'experience' of pure awareness does seem as if awareness is cognizing itself.
All terms of reference are by nature dualistic, thus I don't see how
'pure non-dual awareness' can be grasped/cognized by any one. However,
as long as there appears to be a 'being here', all we have is
'awareness as this'........ and since there can be nothing that is not
'it', the idea of any coming and going seems quite superfluous.
>The 'experience' of pure awareness does seem as if awareness is cognizing itself.
'pure non-dual awareness' can be grasped/cognized by any one. However,
as long as there appears to be a 'being here', all we have is
'awareness as this'........ and since there can be nothing that is not
'it', the idea of any coming and going seems quite superfluous.
Ram
Sep 5, 2010, 12:48:56 PM9/5/10
to AdvaitaNow
What is it that knows that the sleep state has come and gone?
It is the same knowledge/awareness that sees the waking and dream
states come and go.
Just because there are no thoughts or objects present in sleep, does
that somehow indicate that the awareness is gone somewhere or is
lacking.
The content of of the waking and dream states change, what is aware of
them is like the space that they appear in. In this regard, the three
states of waking, dream and sleep are also like objects appearing in
awareness in that they come and go, but the awareness, whether
containing objects or simply being objectless, is aware, as it is.
Even though there were no objects in dreamless sleep, from where is it
that one can say "I slept well last night," or that one knows, "I
didn't have any peaceful sleep"? Sleep is where awareness finds rest
from the activities of the waking and dream states. If we don't get
any deep sleep(even if there is much restless dreaming sleep) there is
a great sense of restlessness(lack of rest) or fatigue. When awareness
is ready to throw off the world, the deep sleep state is found quite
easily.
Marcus
Oct 19, 2010, 10:48:44 AM10/19/10
to AdvaitaNow
.
Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive.
We can only ever conclude awarness as sentient. If you slept for a
week you would presume you lost a week of your ability to be you.
This of course does not mean you where-not you for that week. Only
you failed in that week to be you. Everyone else watch you as you
slept saying “look she is still asleep”
I think conscious awarness is no different to the solar winds that
drift from one village to another. An energy which steps through
cicumstance by rooting itself within certain moment. We will always
contemplate conscious awarness form a human stanpoint, yet clearly
conscious awarness is not bound by human limitations.
Human awarness rises and falls like the tides of the sea.
.
Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive.
We can only ever conclude awarness as sentient. If you slept for a
week you would presume you lost a week of your ability to be you.
This of course does not mean you where-not you for that week. Only
you failed in that week to be you. Everyone else watch you as you
slept saying “look she is still asleep”
I think conscious awarness is no different to the solar winds that
drift from one village to another. An energy which steps through
cicumstance by rooting itself within certain moment. We will always
contemplate conscious awarness form a human stanpoint, yet clearly
conscious awarness is not bound by human limitations.
Human awarness rises and falls like the tides of the sea.
.
Message has been deleted
empty2
Oct 20, 2010, 7:40:34 AM10/20/10
to AdvaitaNow
On Oct 19, 9:48 pm, Marcus <marcus.hug...@tubelines.com> wrote:
>...We will always
I agree with the above. It seems we cannot help being 'waking state'-
centric. After all, this is the only state in which there is anything
to say.
From this stand point, I find Ram's post to be 'existence-centric'
also.
e.g....
> > What is it that knows that the sleep state has come and gone?
The appearance of individual consciousness as manifested in and as the
waking state.
> > It is the same knowledge/awareness that sees the waking and dream
> > states come and go.
I'd suggest (as I often have to Ram), that knowledge is irrelevant to
awareness 'as it is'.
> > Just because there are no thoughts or objects present in sleep, does
> > that somehow indicate that the awareness is gone somewhere or is
> > lacking?
But just because we see the waking state as different to the absence
of the thoughts and objects of the sleeping state, does not somehow
indicate that awarenes 'as it is' has undergone, nor witnessed, nor
'been aware of' any change whatsoever. It is only from the waking
state that there appear - to the 'appearance' of an individual
consciousness - to be any states whatsoever.
Awareness 'as it is', as we are told, is non-dual. In the waking state
there is a perceiver and perceived. If, as we are also told, there is
in fact no difference between perceiver and perceived, then there is
no essential difference between one thing and another..... indeed,
there IS no 'one thing and another'.
Wind is the movement of air. It is only air. Just as awareness being
'gold' there are no such things as ornaments. Wind blows, air remains
air. That which appears to move, remains as it is. Movement, as a
whole, has no movement!
Surely awareness as it is, is unaware of 'awareness'. From our point
of view, that's 'nothing'.
What's wrong with nothing?
MT2
>...We will always
> contemplate conscious awarness form a human stanpoint, yet clearly
> conscious awarness is not bound by human limitations.
> Human awarness rises and falls like the tides of the sea.
Hi Marcus! Quiet around here, isn't it!
> conscious awarness is not bound by human limitations.
> Human awarness rises and falls like the tides of the sea.
I agree with the above. It seems we cannot help being 'waking state'-
centric. After all, this is the only state in which there is anything
to say.
From this stand point, I find Ram's post to be 'existence-centric'
also.
e.g....
> > What is it that knows that the sleep state has come and gone?
waking state.
> > It is the same knowledge/awareness that sees the waking and dream
> > states come and go.
awareness 'as it is'.
> > Just because there are no thoughts or objects present in sleep, does
> > that somehow indicate that the awareness is gone somewhere or is
But just because we see the waking state as different to the absence
of the thoughts and objects of the sleeping state, does not somehow
indicate that awarenes 'as it is' has undergone, nor witnessed, nor
'been aware of' any change whatsoever. It is only from the waking
state that there appear - to the 'appearance' of an individual
consciousness - to be any states whatsoever.
Awareness 'as it is', as we are told, is non-dual. In the waking state
there is a perceiver and perceived. If, as we are also told, there is
in fact no difference between perceiver and perceived, then there is
no essential difference between one thing and another..... indeed,
there IS no 'one thing and another'.
Wind is the movement of air. It is only air. Just as awareness being
'gold' there are no such things as ornaments. Wind blows, air remains
air. That which appears to move, remains as it is. Movement, as a
whole, has no movement!
Surely awareness as it is, is unaware of 'awareness'. From our point
of view, that's 'nothing'.
What's wrong with nothing?
MT2
Mark Ty-Wharton
Oct 21, 2010, 6:17:29 AM10/21/10
to advai...@googlegroups.com
Awareness as it is can only be aware of awareness where something is happening.
Think about a battery.
The battery is full of energy, it would be true to say there is a
concentration of energy in one area of the atomic structure that we
are calling awareness.
It does not know itself to be any different to any other aspect of
itself unless the right connections are made for it to know itself.
A battery has two terminals.
Unlike a battery, human beings lots of those connections.
In fact more possible combinations of connections in one human being
than the number of known atoms in the universe.
We might think that in order for awareness to have the profound
understanding of what it means to have taken on form, we are designed
to think.
Of course we will think that.
Ultimately all philosophy, religions and science shares one common theme.
We have no idea what we are doing here so we make something up.
Making things up perhaps is our true purpose.
There is what's happening and we provide the story line to go with it.
Listen!
Do you have a narrative about this?
Even if you are an advanced mediator, if you read the above at some
point during this day you will have an opinion about it.
Remember, no opinion is also an opinion.
Plurality, many stand points observing the same thing.
Illusion :-)
Kind regards
Mark
Think about a battery.
The battery is full of energy, it would be true to say there is a
concentration of energy in one area of the atomic structure that we
are calling awareness.
It does not know itself to be any different to any other aspect of
itself unless the right connections are made for it to know itself.
A battery has two terminals.
Unlike a battery, human beings lots of those connections.
In fact more possible combinations of connections in one human being
than the number of known atoms in the universe.
We might think that in order for awareness to have the profound
understanding of what it means to have taken on form, we are designed
to think.
Of course we will think that.
Ultimately all philosophy, religions and science shares one common theme.
We have no idea what we are doing here so we make something up.
Making things up perhaps is our true purpose.
There is what's happening and we provide the story line to go with it.
Listen!
Do you have a narrative about this?
Even if you are an advanced mediator, if you read the above at some
point during this day you will have an opinion about it.
Remember, no opinion is also an opinion.
Plurality, many stand points observing the same thing.
Illusion :-)
Kind regards
Mark
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Marcus
Nov 16, 2010, 11:01:14 AM11/16/10
to AdvaitaNow
.
Mark said :
“Making things up perhaps is our true purpose.”
This is the stuff ………. Break free form that egotistical notion that
“WE” or even conscious awareness is adorned with the universal
prestige of purpose. As a singularity it is, shifting dancing the
dance of cosmic energy. Beautiful in it’s elegance she creates and
destroys to create again. Just as we do. The cosmic purpose of
making things up. Our behaviour being indicative of the universal
Behaviour.
Why not ………… it seems to fitin with that illusion stuff …….. ?
.
> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/advaitanow?hl=en.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark said :
“Making things up perhaps is our true purpose.”
This is the stuff ………. Break free form that egotistical notion that
“WE” or even conscious awareness is adorned with the universal
prestige of purpose. As a singularity it is, shifting dancing the
dance of cosmic energy. Beautiful in it’s elegance she creates and
destroys to create again. Just as we do. The cosmic purpose of
making things up. Our behaviour being indicative of the universal
Behaviour.
Why not ………… it seems to fitin with that illusion stuff …….. ?
.
>
> --
> mark ty wharton
> †µ€_©0Nç∑P†_Hµß
> ___________________________________________________________________________________________
> --
> mark ty wharton
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> The contents of this email and the context of the message and any
> attachments are intended for the recipient only.
> You may not copy, or redistribute the contents of this email without
> the express, written consent of the author.
>
> mark ty-wharton is a composer, philosophical speaker and writerhttp://mark.ty-wharton.com
> @mark_tywharton- Hide quoted text -
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> You may not copy, or redistribute the contents of this email without
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> - Show quoted text -
Anandanand
Nov 16, 2010, 11:25:28 PM11/16/10
to AdvaitaNow
I thought we are the made up things.
An illusion calling itself an illusion.
An illusion knowing something as not-illusion.
THAT not-illusion appearing as this illusion.
Kali says see it as unity, my fault, but what I could see was illusion
of separation.
An illusion calling itself an illusion.
An illusion knowing something as not-illusion.
THAT not-illusion appearing as this illusion.
Kali says see it as unity, my fault, but what I could see was illusion
of separation.
Marcus
Nov 17, 2010, 4:23:50 AM11/17/10
to AdvaitaNow
.
Yep ........
There is a constant need to step outside of the duality of illusion
verses reality. The delusion of duality is an essential
observational instrument which assists a spices in survival. The
universal intelligence on the other hand has no need of such
assistance. Yes, we are the illusion and rightly so. The universe is
reality. Yet we are bound by circumstance to witness the universe
from this view point. Circumstance dictates that we can only glimpse
the real world beyond our illusions. Never the less, this universal
intelligence has been felt by many humans and that is why we are
having this discussion.
The mystics art is to dance with the mystery. Safe in the knowledge
that we and our illusions can only be essential in a universal
reality.
This in heart and mind, having a good day becomes an illusionary
preference. Master the self becomes the only true achievement or
benefit or profit or ownership or relationship or religion or politics
or consumerism.
“To thy own self be true.” “Know thy self.”
It’s all been discovered defore.
.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Yep ........
There is a constant need to step outside of the duality of illusion
verses reality. The delusion of duality is an essential
observational instrument which assists a spices in survival. The
universal intelligence on the other hand has no need of such
assistance. Yes, we are the illusion and rightly so. The universe is
reality. Yet we are bound by circumstance to witness the universe
from this view point. Circumstance dictates that we can only glimpse
the real world beyond our illusions. Never the less, this universal
intelligence has been felt by many humans and that is why we are
having this discussion.
The mystics art is to dance with the mystery. Safe in the knowledge
that we and our illusions can only be essential in a universal
reality.
This in heart and mind, having a good day becomes an illusionary
preference. Master the self becomes the only true achievement or
benefit or profit or ownership or relationship or religion or politics
or consumerism.
“To thy own self be true.” “Know thy self.”
It’s all been discovered defore.
.
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