Is Swiss 721 close to Helvetica?
Doug Schaefer
Thanks for any advice.
Doug Schaefer
Ramón G Castañeda
Swiss 721 is Helvetica, just with another name, presumably for copyright avoidance purposes.
You can check it out for yourself at the Bitstream web site:
<http://www.bitstream.com/>
If you still have any doubts, check the quintessentially ugly Helvetica capital G in Bitstream's Swiss 721 and Adobe's Helvetica; it's the same, as are all the characters in the face. It's easy to recognize that G because it does have a vertical serif-like bar at its bottom right, very unusual and, in my personal opinion, inappropriate for a sans serif typeface. To me the G in Helvetica (and therefore in Swiss 721)looks more like a graphic instruction on how to take off the lid of a jar than a letter.
People tend to focus very critically on the capital letters of a typeface that correspond to their own initials; G is my middle initial.
Trust me, it's the same butt ugly typeface by any other name.
Ramón
Ramón G Castañeda
As a further reassurace to you, I'd remind you that "Helvetia" means Switzerland, therefore "Helvetica" means precisely Swiss. "Confederatio Helvetica" and "Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft" or Swiss Confederation all denote the official name of the country of Switzerland.
Bitstream simply chose a different name with exactly the same connotation and denotation to market the same typeface. It's strictly about trademarks and copyrights.
Ramón
Dominic Hurley
Gene Trujillo
Trust me, it's the same butt ugly typeface by any other name.
Ah, heck, Helvetica has had it's place in the world. I think it looked quite handsome during the 50s Swiss design movement (International Style) it was re-named after. It's just overused now.
Doug Schaefer
I didn't mean to doubt you. I was just confused by the fact that Bitstream offered Swiss and I couldn't understand that if it was simply Helvetica which we all have. I never thought about the Helvetica/Swiss connection but it makes perfect sense (why didn't I think of that????).
Thanks very much.
Doug
Ramón G Castañeda
Respectfully, I totally disagree. Helvetica was, from day one, a face designed for signage and for use in catalogues. It was misused almost from the very beginning.
Its static design is strictly utilitarian. Compare it to the dynamic design of a sans-serif typeface like Univers: look at the clumsy uniform strokes of a character like the letter 'n' in Helvetica, then look at the way the upper arch of the same letter in Univers subtly tapers and blends into the left vertical stroke.
One could keep on pointing out such details for quite some time, but it's not worth it. Those who are "used" to Helvetica will continue to use it anyway.
As for the various design movements of the 20th century, there are much better examples of typefaces produced elsewhere, as in the German Bauhaus movement, etc.
The Swiss make great chocolate and cheese, though.
Ramón
Ramón G Castañeda
The Swiss-Helvetica link is often overlooked, but it comes instantaneously to me. I lived in Switzerland in 1962 and 1963 as a student at the University of Zürich and simultaneously at the Eidgenossische Technische Hochschule one block down the street.
Neil Keller
I'm gonna disagree about your reasons for preferring Univers over Helvetica. To my eye, Univers is more static, stiffer and colder in appearance than Helvetica. In addition, without playing with the tracking, I find that it just sets too open for my taste. However, in text sizes, Univers might just be a tad more readable than Helvetica.
As far as it being misused or overused, there are many, many far worse choices than Helvetica.
My view is admittedly highly subjective, and I'd just as soon "agree to disagree" on this, rather than argue about which is a better typeface.
Neil
Ramón G Castañeda
"agree to disagree"
Agreed. :-)
On the use of the term “static,” it is a term of art used by type designers to define a uniform-stroke face like Helvetica in contrast to a dynamic one. I was not using it in a subjective fashion, and it does not have a pejorative connotation per se.
Arguing over two sans serif faces would be akin to discussing the merits of two types of enemas, both of which may be useful but unpleasant. That being said, on a subjective level I still think Helvetica is particularly ugly even among sans serif faces.
One of my daughters borrowed a lot of my type design books, but when I retrieve them I'll try to post a reference to at least one article in English on the design of Univers and how it contrasts with statics faces like Helvetica.
Ramón
Guy Smiley
Good one!
COMALite J
Helvetica / Swiss (in every variant I’ve encountered), as well as Univers / Zurich, Arial, etc., all have this problem. There are many common sans-serif fonts that do not, including Microsoft’s Verdana (“Il”), Tahoma (“Il”), and Trebuchet MS (“Il”). Verdana, of course, gets installed on every Windows or Mac computer with Internet Explorer 4 or later. Trebuchet MS used to be available as part of an extended Web fonts package from Windows Update, or as a separate free download for Mac or Windows from the Microsoft Typography website <http://www.microsoft.com/typography>. Tahoma gets installed with any Microsoft Office (at least 97 or later, if not before), for Windows or Mac.
Don McCahill
Neil Keller
A very long dynasty, indeed!
Neil
Don McCahill
Neil Keller
OK, so what did happen to the other 9 wars? Unfortunately, if you've ever seen Jay Leno asking "common knowledge" style questions of the man in the street, you could quickly come to the conclusion that Americans are raising a nation of idiots.
...and on election day, their votes count just as much as mine.
Actually, recalling that you're up in Ontario, I should add that this is probably not just a problem indigenous to the USA.
Obviously, I'm opening a really big door that takes us to places far astray from the topic at hand. So, in the spirit of these forums, I think we should try to get this back to the exciting controversy of Helvetica v Swiss-whatever. <vbg>
Neil
Marilyn Langfeld
Ramón G Castañeda
While typing the paragraph about Spanish typography, another factor came to mind why I prefer Univers over Helvetica: German typography.
The German Es-Zet character ("German double-s"), ß, in Helvetica is as ugly as a sin on Good Friday and contrary to the very essence of the glyph. Compare it to the same glyph in Univers, a family which, by the way, comprises 21 different typefaces.
Ramón
Ramón G Castañeda
In many European countries the design of a typeface is protected by copyrights just as much as its name. In other parts of the world, and this includes the USA, the design of a typeface is not protected, only its name.
In the US, anyone can digitize a typeface, create a digital font, give it a new name and market it freely.
If you print a document set in Helvetica and then try it again with Swiss 721, you won't see any difference --with a very minor exception.
That exception has to do with Bitstream corporate policy to place the Spanish initial question mark (¿) and initial exclamation point (¡) resting on top of the baseline, rather than as characters with descenders reaching below the baseline as is customary in traditional Spanish typography, in all of their typefaces, not just Helvetica. All of their fonts are like this.
I contacted Bitstream about this years ago and they stand by their decision, for reasons that are not convincing at all. (I can elaborate on that if anyone is interested.)
Because of these deliberate quirk, Bitstream typefaces in general are not suitable for Spanish traditional typography.
Bitstream is a legitimate type foundry and a fine company, but I have no knowledge as to the internal decisions that led to Swiss 721. One could speculate that they could not acquire total rights to the name Helvetica because other foundries already had the license for the name. They may well have reached a deal as to the design, I don't know.
The original holders of the rights to the Helvetica typeface is Heidelberger Druckmaschinen A. G., who in turn license it to Linotype, and Linotype sublicenses that to others.
Bottom line: if you don't deal with the Spanish glyphs mentioned above, you will not see any difference in the design of any of the characters of Swiss 721 in comparison to Helvetica. They are one and the same.
Ramón
Ramón G Castañeda
Don McCahill
I am indeed a Canadian, and up here we are way to condescending about the average US citizen's intelligence. A popular comedian up here likes to go down to the US and ask opinion poll questions about silly things, such as global warming causing the igloos we live in starting to melt.
It is unfair, since Canadians study both US History and Geography in high school, and are bombarded with your cultural media, while the opposite does not happen. It should be no surprise that the US man on the street sounds stupid.
I also suspect that 20 people may have given perfectly logical answers, but these would not be funny, so they get left on the cutting room floor.
One difference between Canadians and Americans, I think, is that more people there will do ANYTHING to get on TV, and as a result will make stupid comments rather than admitting they don't know anything about a topic. Alas, I find increasing numbers of Canadians are also developing this trait ... we are starting to get local reality shows where people trade their pride for false fame.
Gordon Missimer
A popular comedian up here likes to go down to the US and ask opinion
poll questions about silly things, such as global warming causing the
igloos we live in starting to melt.
A popular comedian in the US does the same thing. Two of his so-called "all stars" once came to the conclusion that there are no North and South poles, because they cancel each other out. :0)
Neil Keller
Here in the States, we have "Canadian" jokes. And French jokes are ever popular. But we also have "New Jersey" jokes and "Arkansas" jokes, among others.
My point is that too many people just don't seem to get the education they should -- and that they are entitled to. And they aren't trained properly for their chosen (or current) professions.
I wonder how many cashiers would be able to keep their jobs today if cash registers couldn't figure out change for them. Try this the next time you buy something for an odd amount. such as $16.37. Give the cashier a $20; let him or her ring it up and have the register calculate the $3.63 change. Then announce that you've got some change. Hand over another 12в -- and watch the blank facial expression as the cashier first tries to figure out why you gave just 12в, and then watch as this person attempts to figure out just what change to hand back to you. I've actually seen one such clerk reach for a pen and a scrap of paper and spend the next minute-and-a-half to do some heavy-duty manual calculating.
How would these people function with an old-fashioned cash register that just rang up the grand total; no addition or change calculations.
Meanwhile, back at the Typography forum....
Neil
Thomas Phinney
Aside from one or two odd issues, such as the Spanish punctuation, Bitstream's fonts are generally well made, serviceable renditions of the originals. Some of them may even be artistically better. However, users should be aware that the character widths and kerning will not be identical to the authorized versions, so switching from one to the other is likely to cause reflow.
Of course, the relevant foundries later changed their minds about licensing. Who knows, maybe Bitstream will clean up this bit of unpleasantness from their past one of these days?
Regards,
T
Ramón G Castañeda
Not wanting to expose myself to a libel suit, since I did not know the facts for sure, I refrained from dumping on Bistream and hedged a bit.
Yes, they have a whole bunch of other renamed clones.
Ramón
P.S. -- The darn spelling checker keeps on wanting to change Bitstream into “Pastrami.”
Neil Keller
The darn spelling checker keeps on wanting to change Bitstream into “Pastrami.”<
Same thing, no? Not a bad sandwich either: Pastrami & Swiss on rye.
-----------------
The point of text reflow is one main reason I don't have more than a handful of Bitstream fonts on my drive; moreso than any concerns for their fonts' integrity. If I have to share an editable document with someone, it's going to be set in Helvetica, not Swiss 721.
Neil
Thomas Phinney
I hope nobody took my comments on Bitstream's history as criticism. Given that the fonts in question weren't available in digital form at the time, and licensing wasn't an option, I don't view their actions back in the early 80s as terribly immoral. I'll also note that in a number of cases they went out of their way to work with the original designers, who got royalties or payments from the new Bitstream work.
I'm not defending their actions, either. But there was a lot worse than that going on in the type industry 10-20 years ago, and beginnings of Bitstream were a long time ago with different people running the company, anyway.
Bitstream has generally offered decent technical quality, and their artistic/aesthetic quality varies from passable to outstanding. In some cases their versions may be "better" than the originals.
Of course, I don't think anybody holds a candle to Adobe as far as technical quality goes. AFAIK, no other type foundry has anything approaching our rigorous font testing program (though the OS vendors may). Adobe also has mostly done a pretty careful job in selecting fonts for artistic/aesthetic quality, whether it's licensed designs from other foundries, or the select few that make it as "Adobe Originals."
Regards,
T
Ramón G Castañeda
I also have a handful of Bitstream's fonts, though I don't even remember the last time I used any of them.
Among them are "Zapf Elliptical 711" (Melior, really); "Square Slabserif 711" (City); "Kuenstler 480" (Trump Medaeval"); "Flareserif 821" (Albertus"); Engraver's Gothic; Cloister Black; "Exotic 350 BT" (Peignot); Belwe; Amerigo; Arrus; Bremen; and a few others.
I get a kick out of the names they picked for their unlicensed face names.
Ramón
Ramón G Castañeda
I don't think anybody holds a candle to Adobe as far as technical quality
goes.
I agree.
In an earlier post I described Bitstream as a legitimate digital type foundry and a fine company. The fact that they chose such funny names for some of their fonts does not detract from that. Generally, and with the caveat about Spanish typography, I find their fonts to be superior to all their cheap competitors', though not quite in the same league as Adobe's.
Ramón
Neil Keller
I hope my gentle jabs at Bitstream's font names aren't misinterpreted. One could do far worse than to spec Bitstream fonts. But, of course, with Adobe as the de facto font standard, I reach first for the Adobe catalog when designing a job. But I also consider the thousands of other choices out there, many of which are quite good.
Neil
Thomas Phinney
Regards,
T
Thomas Phinney
Some time in the last couple of days, Bitstream and Linotype have announced that they have come to a licensing arrangement for the Lino trademarks, as well as Bitstream licensing the Linotype library itself.
T
Dominic Hurley
Ramón G Castañeda
If you do talk to them, would you mind asking whether they will retain their scheme for Spanish punctuation (initial exclamation point [¡] and initial question mark [¿]) or will they adopt the universal way of doing things that Adobe, Linotype and every other foundry follow?
Thanks.
Ramón
Thomas Phinney
T
Thomas Phinney
I will ask.
Neil,
Hard to say. If one looks at ITC's licensed faces, for many years they only licensed the trademarks and artwork, so that each foundry had their own versions of the fonts. So I wouldn't *assume* that Bitstream must change their outlines, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did.
Regards,
T
Neil Keller
In such a licensing agreement, how far astray can Bitstream (or any other licensed foundry) stray from Linotype's intended or expected use of the glyphs, kerning pairs, tracking, etc.? Or even in the very appearance of individual glyphs (such as Ramón has pointed out)?
Neil
Thomas Phinney
"Linotype has granted a license to the designs themselves, not the names, so the current names of the Bitstream fonts, Dutch 801, Swiss 721, or Original Garamond for instance, will not change."
Ramón G Castañeda
Dutch 801, Swiss 721
Times, Helvetica.
Original Garamond
Stempel Garamond
I'll stick with Adobe, thanks.
Thomas Phinney
T
Ramón G Castañeda
But it is nice to know that Bitstream is resolving these licensing issues.
Agreed.
Dov Isaacs
- Dov
Dominic Hurley
billd...@xk9.com
> "Arguing over two sans serif faces would be akin to discussing the merits of two types of enemas"
>
> Good one!
Proctologists might argue over enemas. Typographers certainly can argue over typefaces.