BEWARE OF ADOBE’S NEW COPY PROTECTION SOFTWARE – IT CAN SERIOUSLY HARM YOUR COMPUTER

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

Beware of Adobe’s new copy protection software – it can seriously harm your computer!

The FlexNet licensing software that is installed on your computer along with CS3 and CS4, and possibly other, products has the capacity to seriously harm your system. It seems that it relies on some sort of insidious rootkit technology, which hides files on your hard drive. The trouble is that it is not robust and, if it gets broken, has the capacity to render your computer unusable by any product that uses this technology unless and until the hard drive is completely reformatted and everything properly reinstalled. Given that we all pay good money to prevent this doomsday scenario occurring in our computers, this should be unacceptable.

In particular, anyone who thinks that they can rely on disk imaging technology as a means of backing up or migrating system drives containing installations of Adobe CS3/4 should think again. Adobe’s new software and activation technology does not support disk cloning, and the result of using it is likely to render your computer permanently unusable, at least by Adobe products.

I know this because it has happened to me. My computer completely freezes suddenly anytime during or after running CS3. After spending some time investigating the problem, Adobe came up with the following astonishing response:

"We have gone through all the material and logs once again, and came to
the conclusion, the problem was in fact caused by cloning your hard drive.
What happened is, that the FlexNet service, the service responsible for
the activation and licensing of the product, has been damaged. Cloning our
products is not supported by our products, and was therefore not tested
either. The problem is, there are leftovers of the last Photoshop. installation's
FlexNet files present in your system. To make matters worse, these files
are well hidden, to protect our programs from piracy. Therefore, they can't
be removed. Since a deactivation and reinstallation were already done to
no avail, the only thing that's left to do, is a complete reformatting of
your harddrive. We are very sorry to have to tell you this, but it really
is the only option left. Kind regards,
Adobe Technical Support"

Needless to say I am hopping mad! The implication that the problem is somehow my fault for daring to clone my hard drives is absurd! Disk imaging is a perfectly legitimate way of backing up and restoring or migrating hard drives and what they seem to be saying is that disk imaging as a backup & restore solution does not work with Adobe and Macromedia products. If this is so, a warning to this effect should be writ large on all of them.

To top it all, Adobe’s abdication of responsibility shows a blatant disregard for their paying customers. They have rolled out a technology that, by their own admission, has not been fully tested and which has the potential to inflict irrevocable harm on their customers’ computer systems as a result. (Even Microsoft would not dare to try to get away with such a thing!) They have done this to protect their software from piracy and thus to protect their revenue stream. Fine, but they should do this at their own expense, not at the expense of their loyal paying customers, and, when things do go wrong, they should be willing and able to provide a fix. If Adobe lose these paying customers, the piracy issue becomes irrelevant! (If you ask me, a far more elegant solution to the piracy problem would be to lower the price of the software, which is absurdly over-priced, certainly here in the UK.)

As a loyal customer and user of Photoshop virtually from day one, I do expect better than this. For the first time since I took up digital photography, I am looking for a different photo editing solution. I certainly do not think that any more of my hard earned cash will be heading in Adobe’s direction, at least until this is sorted out.

[Ho]

This is completely unacceptable. I Ghost my HD on a monthly basis to guard against untimely meltdowns, which, if they occur at the wrong time, could cost me a lot of money.

Given that the source of this income is work that almost always involves the use of Adobe software, the notion that I could, for any number of reasons, restore a Ghost image and thereby render my computer unusable (especially if it affects *only* Adobe products) is absurd.

Clients, at least the ones that pay a premium, don't want excuses. They want you to deliver what you promised *when* you promised.

Looks like I may stick with CS2 after all.

[Ho]

No.

[chris_...@adobeforums.com]

So have you installed CS4?

[chris_...@adobeforums.com]

So have you installed CS4?

@Basil

[Myle...@adobeforums.com]

I'm not sure what the fuss is all about, frankly. True, it's a pain in the butt if and when it happens, but really - it hits one system in a few thousand and certainly does not occur on a daily basis. Beyond that, it's beside the point - you can't exactly hold Adobe responsible for a third-party technology they have no control over, either.

Mylenium

[John_T...@adobeforums.com]

I Ghost my HD

I tried Norton Ghost once... had problems (not with Adobe)... and found what is, for me, a better product

The imaging software I use runs completely independent of Windoze, with a version that runs from a DOS boot disk or a version that runs on it's own version of Linux (the Linux version will create a custom boot CD)

Either version will span a backup across multiple CD/DVD discs, or to an extra internal or an external USB hard drive

I use drive swap housings and have FOUR boot drives, which I rotate every time I add or remove software, so my most recent working drive is in a drawer before I install anything new onto a boot drive which I have just cloned off of that recent drive

I have had ZERO problems with this imaging software, and that includes having several CS3 products installed

Dos version runs off a 3.5 inch boot disk
<http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image-for-dos.htm>

Linux version creates a bootable CD, use if you have a USB mouse or keyboard
<http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image-for-linux.htm>

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

It is possible that cloning will work for some, maybe, for example, if done between identical disks. Adobe are saying that they do not guarantee that it will; and sometimes it won't.

However that is beside the point. Microsoft, bless their socks, have gone to great lengths to produce an operating system, which, for all its faults, is robust. If something gets broken, it will, 9 times out of 10 repair itself, and what remains is always fixable, once the problem is identified. It is amazing just how much abuse XP can take and still function.

Now Adobe has come along and done something that negates all of that. They have introduced a technology, that, once broken, cannot be fixed. That goes against the principles that everyone else has been working towards.

At the moment, few people may be affected (maybe more than Adobe care to admit to, and perhaps some who do not yet know that they are) but software users need to be wary of the thin end of the wedge. If all software vendors did similar things and played fast and loose with the basic fabric of the operating and file systems, all computers would soon be reduced to piles of junk.

That is why it is wrong.

Until Microsoft themselves support 3rd party product licensing and activation within the operating system, Adobe should hold off on this.

[Ho]

John,

I've used Ghost since it was owned by Binary Research (or whatever it was, pre Norton), and I've never had an issue with it. I still have a version that boots from DOS and I use it every so often as a fail safe backup in addition to my regular backups.

However, I do use Ghost to restore an image at least 3 or 4 times a year just for hygiene purposes, regardless of whether I'm having issues or not. I guess I'll wait and see what others report before I jump to CS4.

[Lynda_P...@adobeforums.com]

I have got CS2 and will definitely not be upgrading until they sort this out. I had to clone my hard drive recently and Photoshop has since been working fine, thank goodness. (CS2 does not use FlexNet) I also take regular images of my drive as back-ups, so if I had CS3/4 then I would not be able to rely on them

Adobe have used inappropriate technology and from what I understand, they will only recommend that you re-install your system from scratch if you get a problem with their licensing software - which is, by any definition, malware!

We pay more than enough to own Photoshop and pay even more to keep it up to date - Punish the Pirates, I say, not us, the honest users!

[Mike_M...@adobeforums.com]

Hard drives fail and good backup plans are a must for operations large and small. Anyone mass-producing software should be testing it using (at least) the most widely used backup and recovery means by its customer base. To state that they simply do not support restoring an OS drive w/o a reinstalling of the software is simply astonishing. Its a good thing that adobe products are not typically used in the medical or financial services industries.

[boblevine]

How many times have we seen post from people that have been given
incorrect info from Adobe CS? I'm not saying that this is the case here,
just that I don't think everyone should be jumping the gun without
confirming it.

Bob

[Jim_J...@adobeforums.com]

There are three possible solutions to the perceived problem that one can try.

1) Buy the version of Photoshop that does not require activation (aka: a site license)

2) Use a disk clone app that does a complete clone of every section of the hard drive. (apparently some here have experience with such)

3) Run the activated version of Photoshop in a virtual machine. The activation data should be written to the easily archived VM disk image file.

[Rob_M...@adobeforums.com]

I find it funny that this thread resurfaces for every major new product release from Adobe. They've been doing activation for what, three releases now? I've never had a problem with it and have backed it up fine, usually it just requires reactivation.

Technically, the point behind activation is to prevent the software from being cloned to other PCs and remain activated. Sounds to me like the activation is doing it's job.

These FUD posts do nothing to help anyone other than freak people out who might not otherwise experience the problems noted within.

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

Dear Bob,

Do you know any different?

I have been both very patient and insistent with Adobe. They have indeed confirmed their position and are adamant that a reformat and system reinstall are necessary to fix the problem on my computer caused by cloning the hard drive. They are standing by what is said in the quote above. (However, I have got an impression that there may be a fix, but they won't tell me what it is, in case I tell the pirates!)

If, you or anyone else, know how the problem can be fixed without going to all this trouble, I will be the first to rejoice, and we can also all sleep well at night knowing that Photoshop will continue to work even after a disaster recovery.

I am only going by what Adobe tech support are telling me. What else can I do?

Please tell me they are wrong!

[David_C...@adobeforums.com]

I use Acronis to both back up and to clone my hard drive. I recently built a new desktop and cloned my current hard drive and restored it to the new one. Worked like a charm. I don't remember having to re-activate Photoshop but I did Acrobat.

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

This only affects CS3 and later. Earlier versions of CS used different activation software.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

caused by cloning the hard drive.

others have reported success, maybe you're just doing it wrong.

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

That a system can be cloned to a new HD and new desktop w/o activation is perplexing, as activation, as I understand it, takes a "picture" of your hardware, and requires re-activation when it detects changes.

Otherwise, cloning would be a perfect pirating tool, seems to me.

[John Joslin]

I couldn't make out amid all the verbosity if the OP had de-activated prior to cloning. That's what I would do.

[Ho]

On an NT based OS, cloning only works when the controllers and chipsets are identical. So, activation parameters notwithstanding, moving software from one computer to another is problematic if the machines are not virtually the same. The OS won't permit it.

Yeah, there are workarounds but most folks wouldn't bother.

[MarkJ]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:11:12 -0700, Basil_...@adobeforums.com
wrote:

OP - Can you elaborate on the exact problem here.

Are you saying all you did was a disk image to a new drive and that
was all and after that Photoshop would not work on the new drive and
the problem cannot be corrected?.
i.e. you didnt try to uninstall/reinstall photoshop or upgrade etc
after you had done the image?

[MarkJ]

Err very few. How many specific and detailed written statements like
this one have you seen from Adobe Systens Inc this year which are
incorrect?

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

so long as you can reconfigure the drivers, one can move from platform to platform, and then re-activation will be called for.

[Buko]

Just so everyone has another perspective.

I use a Mac and have been cloning my System hard drive so I can have a test drive. the cloned drive is viewed by Adobe as a second activation but other than that there are no issues. The situation may be drastically different with MS in the picture, but this sounds more like chicken little crying the sky is falling.

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

If it works (worked) for you, that's just dandy. All I know is that it didn't work for me, and Adobe's response has been less than satisfactory.

Improvised copy protection technology like this is invariably at some risk or loss to the honest user, which is one reason why it is so reviled.

You have been warned.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

all the "copy protection" does is inconvenience legal purchasers. pirates could care less. they're going to get it anyway. AND adobe don't care that they cheesed off yet another long time customer. they know you and millions of others will buy it anyway. we're suckers. face it.

[Buko]

You have been warned.

the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!

HALP! TEH SKY IZ FALLIN!

there, fixed that for ya. :)

[Buko]

tHanX!

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

<http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1qCSHXM941dosh9cZq5arZd4a7YsDh1>

[Robert_...@adobeforums.com]

Is it really so difficult to deactive the software and then just reinstall
it? Have we really gotten so lazy that we can't even install the software we
use.

While I think copy protection of any kind is a joke and a waste of time, the
fact remains the companies don't and it is there. Deal with it and stop
whining. Or go for the GIMP or something.

BTW I bet with in 24 hours of the release of CS4 it will be cracked or a key
generator made for it. If man or woman can make it man or woman can break
it. This is why copy protection is a waste of time and a big old joke.

Robert

[John Joslin]

BTW I bet with in 24 hours of the release of CS4 it will be cracked or
a key generator made for it.

Catch up Robert!

[nospam]

"Ho" <hpowen@*nospam*operamail.com> wrote in message news:59b6b...@webcrossing.la2eafNXanI...

> On an NT based OS, cloning only works when the controllers and chipsets are identical. So, activation parameters notwithstanding,
moving software from one computer to another is problematic if the machines are not virtually the same. The OS won't permit it.
>
> Yeah, there are workarounds but most folks wouldn't bother.

Matching platforms is assumed in most cloning situations.

If "FlexNet" is similar to Adobe's (actually Macrovision's) past copy
protection scheme, use DiskProbe or similar utility to look at your
hard disk's first 64 absolute sectors, immediately before, and after,
installation of CS4. Compare. If you see one or more reserved
sectors are different, it's a disk signature.

Reserved sectors are not copied in most cloning software, unless
certain parameters are used (e.g. "forensic mode" in Ghost). This
might account for why cloning CS4 works for some people but not
for others.

[Lynda_P...@adobeforums.com]

It seems to me there are a few Adobe TechSupport Bods who are promoting the party line in the foregoing threads. I still have not been able to get through to customer service on an issue - the music on hold was delightful but I can't afford the time to hang on for an hour to speak to someone who has no authority to do anything as I found out. "We sell software and you install it at your own risk" is the message that Adobe give out.

If Adobe said clearly on the box to uninstall software before copying the hard drive they might be excused. However, all those people who have copied a drive with CS3 on it will only find they have a problem when they come to reinstate that copy, should it become necessary. It is still not clear whether FLEXNET is uninstalled completely if you deactivate the software - I suspect not. What else might it be spying on for Adobe? Did they use FLEXNET in the Beta version?

[Buko]

Help the sky is falling again!!!!!!

If you guys can't clone your drives using Windows then ya'll need Macs. Quit cher whinin' and buy the hardware that will work the way you want.

Although I must add that I believe most of these problems are most likely PEBKAK.

[Phosąfour dots]

"It seems to me there are a few Adobe TechSupport Bods who are promoting
the party line in the foregoing threads."

Huh? What?

Ain't nobody here but just us other users. No Adobe employees have weighed in on the issue in these forums.

[Myle...@adobeforums.com]

Did they use FLEXNET in the Beta version?

Well, guess why then you are even able to buy Photoshop CS4 since yesterday...? :-| Of course the prerelease software uses the same mechanisms (which would also be clear, if any of you had participated in the Dreamweaver or Lightroom public Betas) and is tested this way. And forgive me for saying this, you don't know dime about these things, so I can only urge you to not further "enrich" this thread by adding more hot air about a fluff issue. Being the advocate of evil I could just as well say: "Well, then get a proper cloning software. If your product is to stupid to copy hidden sectors while keeping the checksums intact, then it mustn't be that good." You see, this can be twisted and turned in any way one sees fit, and threads like this are going _nowhere_.

Mylenium

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

. Being the advocate of evil I could just as well say

I KNEW i recognized that dude! :)

[Buko]

Mylenium, nicely put.

[Buko]

Y'all know that the Gubment is waching us threw r TV sets and our computrs don't u? even wen thay ar turned off. Thats Y U must cover them with tin foil wen U R not using them.

Don't furgit to were ur tinfoil hat to stop them from reedin' ur mind to.

[Buko]

double post

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

Now who is being unhelpful?

Isn't it just as reasonable to expect that all software should be resilient enough to allow any file to be replaced, should it become damaged, without having to reformat the whole damned disk?

..or are we to conclude that there are hidden files and that once damaged, they cannot be fixed?

... and that some cloning software may not copy them properly.

To have to resort to a reformat and full reinstall of Windows and years' worth other software, is hardly a "fluff issue"!

For me, the sky did indeed fall in. So if you guys, who clearly have more than a casual interest in defending Adobe, want to be helpful, please either provide a workable fix, or do something to make sure it cannot happen again to me or anyone else, or preferably do both.

[Myle...@adobeforums.com]

Isn't it just as reasonable to expect that all software should be resilient
enough to allow any file to be replaced, should it become >damaged, without
having to reformat the whole damned disk?

..or are we to conclude that there are hidden files and that once damaged,
they cannot be fixed?

... and that some cloning software may not copy them properly.

Well, then allow me to be blunt: Then why at all are you using Photoshop (or any other software that uses any system of copy protection for that matter) instead of drawing your images on fine grid paper and calculating each cell's position and color with a TI scientific calculator? As I said two times already: The whole discussion is utterly and completely pointless. Use it or loose it. There can be no ambiguities in the matter.

If you, as you claim, really were that concerned, you should have switched to Corel PSP or similar products long ago. But since you haven't, I can only assume that Photoshop (and other tools) offer enough advantages over their competitors to justify higher prices, going through lengthy install procedures and having to deal with activation. So where does that leave us?

Don't get me wrong: On a more generic level I understand you, but you are complaining about a non-issue. Anyone having to deal with much more complex issues like using floating license servers for MentalRay, Renderman, Maya or other 3D programs in a heterogenous environment or people who need to run 5 dongled programs with 5 different incompatible port drivers could tell you much more severe stories, be it for these things not even working after a full re-install or the companies not even providing "qualified" e-Mail or phone support. You know, 2 months ago we got new Avid systems and guess what - it took the techs 3 days to patch the dongles so they accept the new serials. And those guys do this regularly! So for what it's worth: Things are by no means as perfect as they seem elsewhere, too.

Trust me, the Adobe devs, I and many other people involved with the development process are trying to make the end-user experience as good for you as we can, but there are simply limits to how deeply we can influence some matters. Licensing third-party code to manage copy protection or getting such lovable features as actually being able to output MPEG video from After Effects are such things. They may change at one point, they may not. It's just that ranting on forums, least of all the original vendor's ones, isn't helping, either.

Mylenium

[Myle...@adobeforums.com]

I KNEW i recognized that dude!

Dave, please behave. Read this article here <http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b6bec2> and then tell me, how many points you would think you could score if and when the same stuff is rolled into the forum mechanism. There's nothing wrong with having a bad day, but admittedly my tolerance level for you is becoming lower with every of your posts, so take it back a notch, if you can. We all appreciate your input, we just prefer you wouldn't always deliver it with extra decoration.

Mylenium

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

Dave, please behave.

sorry. no can do.

how many points you would think you could score if and when the same stuff
is rolled into the forum mechanism.

on a guess? more than 95% of the posters here. i recon there's only about a dozen of us, give or take a few, who genuinely try to help here on a daily basis. why? because we enjoy helping and this is the best place to learn photoshop from the pros who use it every day. and all i know is that when i go on vacation or get sick and don't show up for a while, when i come back, there are lots and lots of threads that go unanswered with no help at all and no posts in em except the starters.

There's nothing wrong with having a bad day,

if you're having a bad day, maybe you should step away from the keyboard before hitting "Post Message".

but admittedly my tolerance level for you is becoming lower with every
of your posts

tough, bud. you don't like it don't read me.

jeez man. lighten up. if we can't laugh at ourselves we're hopeless. i post a lot of stuff tongue in cheek and i try to keep things very light. most of the regulars here know that. you didn't come across as hopeless to me when you first started posting here. in fact i quite enjoy some of your posts and the fact that finally another techie like me had shown up, thinking we could solve a lot of problems together. but i've been wrong before. and i've been helping people here for a long time. most of those people are quite happy with the way i deal with them. especially when their problem is resolved.

my "rants", as you called em elsewhere, well, everyone's got pet peeves. my main ones are DRM and privacy rights. so if you see a post on those issues, know i'll likely chime in, and if you wish, you can avoid those topics.

so thanks for the advice. i appreciate knowing where you stand.

dave

[Free...@adobeforums.com]

Mylenium,

I'm a great admirer of your to-the point and very informative contributions, but don't pick on Dave. He has a wonderfully wicked - or is that wickedly wonderful - sense of humour that livens up this forum. He knows a thing or two about computers, too.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

He knows a thing or two about computers, too.

nah. i just fake it.

;)

[Bart_...@adobeforums.com]

Yeah, don't pick on Dave, that's my job!

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

Yeah, don't pick on Dave, that's my job!

I do need you to keep me in line sometimes! :)

[Rob_K...@adobeforums.com]

Yeah, don't pick on Dave, that's my job!

What?!? I thought we had equal rights here!

R ;-) b

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

Mylenium, unless I misunderstood you, your philosophy seems to be that, if things could be a lot worse, there is no reason to make them better. Mmmm...

That software licensing and copy protection is something that may be beyond the control of Photoshop developers is a fair point, but that is not my problem. Issues arising from it should still be addressed by someone in Adobe. Indeed you should be supporting us in ensuring that they are.

CS is consumer software, and should not need computer techies to manage it. Its users should never have to face the problems with commercial software you allude to, but Adobe has started down a road where one day they just might.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

but Adobe has started down a road where one day they just might.

my point in post #24 is that we've been down this road before, starting with version cs. they don't care. really.

(ok, big heartless corporations is another pet peeve!)

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

in fact we've been told point blank by adobe engineers "i'm not putting naked bits out into the world anymore. end of story."

[Myle...@adobeforums.com]

Mylenium, unless I misunderstood you, your philosophy seems to be that,
if things could be a lot worse, there is no reason to make them better.
Mmmm...

Nope, I think you misunderstand that. I just have different priorities. Dealing with such trivial matters doesn't really bake my noodle, as they say. I'd rather see progress in the programs themselves. In my view the issue discussed here is a lot of noise about nothing, considering that most people only install a software once throughout the lifecycle of their computer and are perfectly happy. Ultimately it becomes a question whether Adobe should fire X million at developing new licensing mechanisms or just spend a fraction of those millions by advising those 3 out of 10000 users on their phone lines. Simple business math on some level, for sure. And let's not kid ourselves: This is a Windows forum to begin with, so we all have much worse stuff to deal with everyday and have the scars to prove it.

Mylenium

[Myle...@adobeforums.com]

ok, big heartless corporations is another pet peeve!

Don't get started on this one. There are too many people still believing Apple are the savior of the universe... ;-) Anyway, regarding your humor: Sorry, I don't see it. It's either the language barrier or my not having been around long enough in these parts, but you come across as extremely cynical, not even sarcastic. Your comments lack that bit subtlety that would make them amusing and they are very "obvious". The others do think you're an okay guy, though, so I shall therefore try to not comment on your posts any further and leave it to them before we end up hugging and telling each other how much we love us :o]. Maybe we can work this out some day. I'll take the quiet exit from this thread, as it has already gone too far in many ways.

Mylenium

[nospam]

<Basil_...@adobeforums.com> wrote in message news:59b6b...@webcrossing.la2eafNXanI...

This copy protection nonsense is a sure sign that Adobe is headed for demise.
Like Lotus, Novell and a thousand other greedy developers before them.

[John Joslin]

Mylenium

You are so wrong mate!

Why don't you listen to the old hands?

You want to fit in? Don't knock the regulars.

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

I can't agree that this is a trivial matter. Adobe has declared war on the pirates, which is fair doos, but it is us users who are getting caught in the crossfire. As long as you are aware of that.

On a more practical level, can someone please advise on the proper way to clone a disk with an installation of CS3+ on it? The engineer I paid to clone my disks used O&O, which he reckoned to be one of the best. I don't know what went wrong there. It is possible that CS3 was already broken, as the system was staggering a bit due to running out of disk space.

For my backups, I use Macrium Reflect. This offers two backup modes: Intelligent, which copies only sectors used by the filesystem, leaving behind the page file and hibernation files; and Exact Copy which clones everthing. The last is slow and presumably results in a huge backup file that is mostly full of junk. So does anybody know if Intelligent Copy should work? Presumably the licensing files are not so hidden that NTFS can't see them.

Also, are there any other procedural matters? Would it have been better to deactivate and uninstall CS3 first and then reinstall it on the new disk, or would this have made no difference?

[Buko]

Basil if you feel so strongly about it please contact Adobe and talk to them. Crying about the sky falling to other users is pretty pointless especially when the majority of other users don't have the problems you are having.

[Bart_...@adobeforums.com]

Hmmmm, Myles Under a Rock, sounds like a movie.

[jca...@adobeforums.com]

we just prefer...

We...? *ahem* I'm gonna have to echo a lot of other people here and type support for Dave on this one.

support for Dave

This thread got out of hand some time ago, and after the point/counterpoints were made. When that happens, the thread, no matter what it is, tends to devolve to OT chatter for the rest of the day. That's just who these people are, and I count myself among them... just not as skilled with the software as most. :)

Myle, lighten up a bit and you'll be fine.

[Ho]

Seems like some people with legitimate issues are being gang-banged by people with nothing better to do or anything useful to contribute.

All this sky-is-falling crap is a wee bit inflammatory. Just because YOU aren't having a problem doesn't mean one doesn't exist. And I *know* if Adobe had just told me to reformat my HD and reinstall everything while being oh so sorry about my luck, well, you might be able to spout the chicken little nonsense to me over the Internet, but don't try saying it to my face.

Damn! I'm all pissed off over this and it's not even my problem. I must need my meds adjusted.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

but you come across as extremely cynical, not even sarcastic

i'm sorry. don't mean to be. cynical? ya, a little. but with a bit of self-deprecating humo(u)r about it. i'm always learning. maybe i can learn not to be cynical. i wish someone would teach me that!

Your comments lack that bit subtlety that would make them amusing and
they are very "obvious".

well if you need to explain a joke... ;)

Maybe we can work this out some day.

i'd like that. my apologies man.

Adobe has declared war on the pirates, which is fair doos, but it is us
users who are getting caught in the crossfire. As long as you are aware
of that.

100% with you. there's just not much we can do except to voice our opinions. that's why i persist in the occasional "rant" on the subject. the only way they'll know we don't like being treated this way is if we speak up. now that may not do any good (i won't say "won't", that'd be cynical) but i know adobe does monitor these forums, even though direct participation of employees has slackened off in the last couple of releases.

On a more practical level, can someone please advise on the proper way
to clone a disk with an installation of CS3+ on it?

I believe people here (daryl p. and others?) have had good luck with acronis drive image.

<http://www.acronis.com/>

you definitely need to deactivate photoshop first, and i think there's some options you need to set for doing the whole drive, not just the partitions. someone who uses it will hopefully chime in with full info.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

btw mylenium, you mentioned a possible language barrier. where are you from, if you don't mind telling, and what's your native language? i'm from new jersey & now pennsylvania, usa and i usually speak new jersey 'merikun. :)

[Bart_...@adobeforums.com]

Mylie is German!

[Phosąfour dots]

"...but you come across as extremely cynical, not even sarcastic."

I think you'd have a different measure for that had you met me here about 6 or 7 years ago.

:)

[John Joslin]

Never clone a disk under a full moon!

[Robert_...@adobeforums.com]

On the other hand Lynda the drive imaging software used to do this is not
part of Windows or made by Microsoft and is not part of Photoshop, Creative
Suite or from Adobe. So expecting a third party to bend over backwards to
make their stuff work with a third third party is just unreasonable. That
would be like having Ford design their cards to work with Toyota parts.

I also believe you will find that any of the software that you can drive
image, restore the driving image and have it work doesn't come with a
guarantee that that will work. Also, how do you know that the people making
the drive image software knows what they are doing. In the case of Norton
Ghost anyone that thinks Symantec can create any program that isn't cr@p is
out of their mind.

You take your risks and their are no guarantees when it comes to software or
how they work with each other.

Robert

[Trez...@adobeforums.com]

FWIW, I've had excellent results/luck with Acronis True Image. Both in a
restore operation and using it to clone a new disk for the same computer. I
did deactivate my Adobe apps first and, of course, I used a _Drive_ image
and not a _Partition_ image.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

good info trez, wasn't there a switch you need to flip in acronis in order to get it to do the hidden secret sectors that adobe's writing to?

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

Acronis True Image

yes, my bad, sorry for the confusion. true image, not drive image. drive image is some old sw i used to use from power quest (PQDI). and yes, i see it was eventually bought out and became the basis for norton ghost. (which was later bought out by symantec).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DriveImage>

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

The reimaging process i use at work consists of a DVD with the OS and a HD with windows 98 and Ghost on it. Both are connected and when the board boots up, 98 shows up then Ghost. A series of choices are presented and once the final ok, it runs very well.

I am still curious about the Win98 use.

I have a stripped version of Acronis,on my Seagate supporting software. I haven't tried the clone as I don't have a need for it, but I am tempted to try.

The only thing that bothers me is the instructions to remove or reformat the drive from which you cloned. Seems to me one could clone to a disk that is pigtailed to the computer then saved for a rainy day and contunue using the original drive.

[Trez...@adobeforums.com]

Actually, when you tell it to image the drive, it does everything unless you
specify otherwise. It does ignore the Windows swap file, as it should. The
only option I add to the normal routine is to have it verify the backup.
Sure, it takes longer -- but I feel a lot better knowing the backup is
readable. It also can mount the image so that you can access it like a
regular drive(s) if you just want to grab some specific data. No software is
perfect, but I have to say that this one has taken good care of me. And
their support folks are VERY quick with fixes/updates should they be needed.

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

I use Acronis True Image as well, and have had no issues. I use it both to set up a test system using a removable drive tray, and for disaster recovery. Deactivation is required before cloning if you expect to reactivate on the new drive (but even that can be cured with a call to Adobe in the case of hard drive failure that prevents deactivation).

There's no way, however, I'd try to clone the OS when moving onto a new system with other new hardware -- too many wrong driver issues. I had a board failure six months ago and tried a repair installation of Windows on the existing hard drive. It took at least as long as a clean install, maybe longer.

Peter

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

Just to answer a few points made above: I cloned my disks way back in July. I realized there might be an issue with Photoshop activation, but everything seemed OK at first. (If it hadn't been, I would have gone back and tried to fix things while it was possible to do so.) CS2 asked to be reactivated. CS3 was dumb but worked, or seemed to. Then the computer started freezing randomly. At first I suspected a hardware/driver problem associated with the new disks. Tracking this problem to its source has taken a lot of painstaking detective work on the part of myself, Dell engineers and other professionals. Most of the inside of my computer has been replaced in the process. The OS has been upgraded (to SP3). Lots of stuff has been cleaned out or upgraded. The OS is as clean as a whistle. Event errors and warnings are now as rare as hen's teeth. The computer has never run better, - except for this one thing. It will freeze suddenly at random and without warning anytime after CS3 is started, it can be minutes or hours, even after CS3 has stopped.

Yes, I have contacted Adobe, and did so as soon as it became clear that the problem was down to them. They took their time about it, but eventually came clean with the statement reproduced above.

Therefore it strikes me that there could be many people out there experiencing unexplained random freezes of their computers due to this problem, without realising it. Of course, lots of things can cause a computer to freeze, and all of these need to be eliminated. This is painstaking work. It is very frustrating to have tracked the problem down, to be told it can't be fixed.

So if Adobe insist on using this technology to protect their intellectual property, they should at least print a health warning on the packet and maybe include better diagnostics to say when something is not working.

As things stand, the technology Adobe is using is crude and dangerous. I may appear to be a one in a 1000 victim, but this could be due to my perseverence in tracking down a problem that many may have put down to failing hardware, prevalent malware, or even, heaven forbid, to Microsoft.

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

Why would you want to clone from an HD that has failed such that deactivation is not possible?

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

, to be told it can't be fixed.

but it can. with a simple format. given that reinstalling the whole os takes about an hour, that's the 1st thing you should've tried. (or i would've anyway, as soon as it became apparent how bad the problem was).

[John Joslin]

I may appear to be a one in a 1000 victim

I would put it at one in a hundred thousand!

[Basil_...@adobeforums.com]

Why would you want to clone from an HD that has failed such that deactivation
is not possible?

I didn't say that. Everything was working, as far as I could tell, but the computer was getting a bit "sticky" and disk fragmentation was becoming a problem. I was simply running out of disk space.

Activation and deactivation appear to work fine, even after cloning. That is not the issue. In fact everything works, until it freezes. Then nothing works. No warnings, no error messages, nothing. Only way out is a hard reboot.

I would put it at one in a hundred thousand!

There is no way of knowing this. Lots of people experience random freezes on their computer. Some even put up with them and put it down to the "Windows Experience". Others end up ditching whole computers. In cases where the problem is difficult to trace, the statistics is hard to do.

Anyway, I've got some work to do. An OS to reinstall (that's the easy bit) and lots of other stuff to install and configure. Thanks guys for the support, or not as the case may be.

I see that this has generated quite a long thread. One can only hope against hope that it's enough to make Adobe sit up and take notice.

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

In fact everything works, until it freezes.

Um, yes, that is a problem. A rather common one too. What I find interesting is that "it" works for a while. That to me doesn't appear to be an issue with activation.

I work all the time with issues caused by program lockup. The times when I have to reboot as a hard reboot is traceable to problems sometimes all the way to BIOS. The OS is quite robust allowing for separation between program crashes and OS shutdown.

I'd start by looking at the event log immediately after the hard reboot. Another thing is to uncheck the auto reboot in the Startup and Recovery panel. Then you should see a BSOD with info on the crash.
System>Advanced>Startup and Recovery.

[Ho]

Basil, this may or may not work for you, but I use a program called Smart Close <http://bmproductions.fixnum.org/> to shut down nonessential apps and services before a heavy-duty Photoshop session. It is user configurable to allow the things you need (like your Wacom drivers) to remain loaded while turning off a lot of excess overhead; however essential OS stuff continues to run. I also shut down software firewall/anti-virus/malware apps since I'm not networked during PS editing.

I use this in conjunction with the 3GB switch to provide maximum performance in PS. I used to experience an occasional lockup myself and, since the Event Viewer had nothing useful to report, I went this route. Not so much as a hiccup since.

Good luck.

[Dan_...@adobeforums.com]

I have a simple question: if we have Photoshop CS3/4 installed on XP systems, can we reliably make image backups of our disks? If so, how do we do it?

I appreciate best guesses but would prefer advice based on testing.

Dan

(who currently backs up using Acronis True Image v11 on Windows XP-SP3 every week. I also spent 12 hours rebuilding my system because of problems that seemed very similar to Basil's)

[John_T...@adobeforums.com]

If you have not already done so, click the Show All Messages option and read everything

There have been several products mentioned that make an image that works with CS3

[Dan_...@adobeforums.com]

Hey John - thanks. I did read the thread, but the truth is I did not come away with the impression that anyone suggesting a solution had actually backed up their systems, restored them and used the restored system for production.

I have restored from an image backup, and wasted an embarrassing amount of time, trying to diagnose the cause (and I am a computer professional). Was my problem because of CS3 copy protection? I don't know. But I do know that I began to experience frequent hangs. I couldn't even copy any files from Adobe directories as the first operation after a cold boot. And I did virus scans with multiple tools with none found.

Mylenium described a plausible cause, but didn't suggest a solution.

Suggestions like deactivate before backups and do disk clones instead of partition image copies struck me as well-intentioned, but misguided advice from folks that have zero software development experience.

I'm going to go back and look at the prior messages in this thread, and if I am wrong about there not being a viable solution, I retract my "simple question" above with a post here.

Dan

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

that's why i thought i had read there was a special switch that had to be set when backing up. i belive it was forum regular don or daryl who uses true image and posted that this was working, but he had to do something to get it to mirror the full drive, not just the readable partition. a forum search might turn it up. i've looked a couple times but haven't found it. maybe one of those guys will see this and pop in.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

I think the post may have scrolled off the board. it was during the time CS was released.

daryl p! if you read this, what are you doing to make your disk images work?

[Dan_...@adobeforums.com]

OK, I just reread the entire thread. Some folks seem to be saying saying that they've used the same software I use for image backups and restores without any problem. Perhaps deactivating Adobe software before every system backup prevents any Adobe copy-protection induced problem on restore. I can live with that but am not confident that the technique is a real fix.

I don't recall any documents or notes from Adobe sugesting that you should always deactivate before a backup, otherwise your restore may not work. Can anyone point me to a reference?

The OP's quote from tech support says his only option is to reformat and reinstall all (not just Adobe) software. If deactivation before backing prevents the problem, I would have expected tech support to have said so. Basil - did they?

Dan

[Trez...@adobeforums.com]

As I said early on, I have had no problems making and restoring a DRIVE (not
partition) image with Acronis. It images everything, even the manufacturer's
hidden "restore" partition, if present. The only switches I can imagine are
to NOT check "Exclude all system files or folders" and "Exclude all hidden
files or folders". I can only speak from experience. YMMV

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

ya, i'm sorry. this thread i'm thinking of was quite a while ago an i might be misremembering, but i'm sure there are people here doing images successfully and they're still at least semi-active. i see daryl pritchard, the guy who i'm pretty sure has done this, last posted in september.

[Russell...@adobeforums.com]

fwiw I recently tested a disk image (disk with 4 primary partitions) of a multi-boot system (winXP and Vist64) that is managed by a partition manager (BootitNG) in its own partition. The whole thing restored just fine using Acronis True Image 11 (legit version with latest build, backing up to an external eSATA drive).

Being new to multi-booting OS's with a partition manager I wanted to be certain I could restore an image to a new drive in the event of a major failure and the test succeeded. There was an initial BootitNG reactivation issue. But that was solved and the proper procedure has been noted in case it's needed one day.

I did not lose any of my activations.

Russell

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

It appears that successful imaging is by imaging the entire drive, and not just the partition containing the os.

Is this correct? My intention was to clone c only to an 80G drive and store it until needed. Of course, the entire physical drive could be lost, but the second partition is already backed up for the critical files.

Damn! Makes the good ol' days where you only had to worry about being sure your negs were in the right kind of sleeves and in the dark. Even that wasn't all that critical!

[Trez...@adobeforums.com]

> It appears that successful imaging is by imaging the entire drive, and not
> just the partition containing the os.
>
> Is this correct?

You bet. It is critical in this day of multiple copy protection methods --
it isn't just Adobe. Corel relies on a system service. Some smaller programs
and anti-virus setups use the boot sector and hidden sectors. I would never
be comfortable with anything less than a drive image.

One saving grace is that in this day of cheap large drives, it is easy to
have all your data on a separate drive. Acronis does a surprisingly good job
of compressing the drive image when set for "normal" compression. There are
higher settings available. You may not need as much space as you think.

[Dan_...@adobeforums.com]

Trez, I'm glad it works for you, but it didn't work for me and your suggestion to clone the drive sounds like it's based on gut-level intuition rather than any plausible explanation of that should make a difference. At least for the way I use Acronis. A few clarifying comments.

All of my software is legit, registered, activated, fully patched etc. I know there are no hidden partitions on any of my drives because partitioned, formatted and installed all software myself - from bare drives and the base install disks. I always do vanilla full partition image backups of the OS/apps and when I (very ralely) do a restore, I never restore the MBR (with associated partition table) and always restore the backed image to its original location.

My system appeared to work just fine when I restored it too. I was writing some code that was copying files from a hidden directory that kept hanging. It started with a few files and within a week I was getting 10 hangs a day and I was doing as many full chkdsks. The copy hangs were reproducible using just the command line copy immediately after booting into Safe mode. Their were no relevant error or warning events in the Windows system log. I also noticed that a chkdsk c: /P from the Recovery Console always found and corrected errors on the C: partition. Run chkdsk twice in a row, and the second one always reported no errors. Do a boot/shutdown sequence in between and the second chkdsk always reported errors.

The the orginal poster's quote from tech support seems to say that deactivation and reactivation after the restore will sometimes fix the problem. It didn't for me.

I'm going contact tech support, provide them with Basil's quote and ask for advise on making backup copies than can be restored, rather than maybe able to be restored. Since I'm quite comfortable with system logs, hex editors etc, I'm going to try and find out how to detect if I have a problem on a restored drive due to Adobe's copy protection.

Dan

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

thanks for confirming russel1!

sounds like it's based on gut-level intuition rather than any plausible
explanation of that should make a difference.

maybe we're not reading the same thread, but this is now seems verified by 3 people (2 in this thread) you need to do the drive, not just the partitions or data on it. don't leave anything out. deactivate photoshop (and other adobe sw?) first.

I'm going to try and find out how to detect if I have a problem on a restored
drive due to Adobe's copy protection.

that would be a great find for the community. i think you'll need to start looking in areas of the boot sector or in "unused" space on the drive.

[Ed...@adobeforums.com]

I have backed up and restored activated Ps CS3 many times with Acronis TI 11 MBR and image XP Pro SP3 OS. Recently I changed the boot drive to a larger size and created two partitions for dual boot of Vista 64 and XP Pro. I restored XP Pro with CS3 and MBR in the first partition. I installed Vista 64 in the second partition and let Vista setup the dual boot. I have backed up and restored the XP Pro partion with PS CS3 activated many times with no problems. I guess I have just been lucky.

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

Perhaps the others are unlucky, if luck has anything (not!) to do with it.

[Jimmy...@adobeforums.com]

nice!

[Ed...@adobeforums.com]

I am not questioning the existance of the problem only that I did not hit on the combination of steps to reproduce the problem.

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

You really need some sort of debug log to be able to definitively trace it, along with the knowledge of how to use the data.