Problem with noise?
Paddy's Pig
Take a look at the green background behind the hummingbird. It's breaking
up into clumps of pixels and I've never had this problem before now --- I
don't even know what I did that caused it, or how to get rid of it.
http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1GW0nhjfwWrug77rOlDfhhVtJEyrdF1
Any help would be appreciated. Thx,
--
Pat Durkin
email: t o b a c c o h a t e r 1 @ y a h o o . c o m
Geoff J
artifacts. Either your camera is set to compress too much or you have saved
it in too high a compression, or it could be that you have resaved it a few
times.
--
Geoff J.
Paddy's Pig
news:zFhql.1106$Lc7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
It does sort of look that way but I don't think so. Here's how it happens:
I open the RAW image and make appropriate adjustments and at this stage none
of the clumping is evident. But when I convert the image to a JPEG it
appears. This is before I've even reduced the size of the JPEG or placed it
in memory. I'm fairly experienced but self-taught on PS so maybe there's
some nuance I'm missing but I don't think I've made any change from my
normal workflow and I've never had the problem until it suddenly popped up a
few days ago. And it's not isolated on one or two shots. It's on
everything I've shot in the past week.
One thing I've noticed is that after opening the image in JPEG the
phenomenon becomes worse if I attempt to burn a part of the picture.
As far as setting my camera to compress too much, I wouldn't even know how
to do that and I'm not sure if there is such an option on a Nikon D80. I
just shoot in RAW --- Nikon calls it NEF --- and take 'em out of the camera
as shot, without modification.
Geoff J
>> I've seen that bird in a.b.p.o.! The clumps you refer to is jpg
>> compression artifacts. Either your camera is set to compress too much or
>> you have saved it in too high a compression, or it could be that you have
>> resaved it a few times.
>
> It does sort of look that way but I don't think so. Here's how it
> happens: I open the RAW image and make appropriate adjustments and at this
> stage none of the clumping is evident. But when I convert the image to a
> JPEG it appears. This is before I've even reduced the size of the JPEG or
> placed it in memory. I'm fairly experienced but self-taught on PS so
> maybe there's some nuance I'm missing but I don't think I've made any
> change from my normal workflow and I've never had the problem until it
> suddenly popped up a few days ago. And it's not isolated on one or two
> shots. It's on everything I've shot in the past week.
>
> One thing I've noticed is that after opening the image in JPEG the
> phenomenon becomes worse if I attempt to burn a part of the picture.
>
> As far as setting my camera to compress too much, I wouldn't even know how
> to do that and I'm not sure if there is such an option on a Nikon D80. I
> just shoot in RAW --- Nikon calls it NEF --- and take 'em out of the
> camera as shot, without modification.
If you are using NEF files then the problem isn't with the camera but with
the way that you save the image, I gues that when you first saved it the
compression was too much. Every time you save and resave as a jpg the image
worsens a little. I would save the converted RAW file as a tiff (which is
not compressed), then open that and crop and resample to a size for posting
then save as a jpg.
What compression are you using when you save as a jpeg? If you still have
the raw image, try opening it, crop and resample it then "Save for web"
using a jpg quality of about 75, see if that gives a better result.
--
Geoff J.
Paddy's Pig
> If you are using NEF files then the problem isn't with the camera but with
> the way that you save the image, I gues that when you first saved it the
> compression was too much. Every time you save and resave as a jpg the
> image worsens a little. I would save the converted RAW file as a tiff
> (which is not compressed), then open that and crop and resample to a size
> for posting then save as a jpg.
Geoff let me repeat this: The problem occurs immediately as I convert the
file as a JPEG! At that point it hasn't even been saved once ---- at ANY
compression level. It does tend to get worse if I manipulate the image or
modify it by burning, etc. All this happens before it's been saved even
once.
Most often I save by using Save for Web & Devices with the quality at 67.
But that is an after-the-fact occurance. By then the damage is done.
This has never happened to me prior to this week. I may have inadvertently
ticked some kind of option box somewhere that's causing it but I don't think
so. And I've checked all my tool presets. No obvious problem there.
Paddy's Pig
news:UuqdnS-kGKSoaTTU...@giganews.com...
By the way Geoff --- thanks for your interest. I just don't think we're
going in the right direction yet.
I'm hoping somebody has experienced something like this and has a
workaround.
Paddy's Pig
>
> By the way Geoff --- thanks for your interest. I just don't think we're
> going in the right direction yet.
>
> I'm hoping somebody has experienced something like this and has a
> workaround.
> --
> Pat Durkin
Incidentally here's another pixentral link:
http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1IJY1U6RghQ93Tor2BUu5aIYS3VSb1
Note the concentric rings on the wall behind the tree.
The appearnce of these things is almost like Newton's Rings from my old film
days --- although caused by totally different reasons.
Geoff J
">
> By the way Geoff --- thanks for your interest. I just don't think we're
> going in the right direction yet.
>
> I'm hoping somebody has experienced something like this and has a
> workaround.
Pat, I have seen this lots of times, the problem is when you first save the
raw file as a jpg you are saving it with a high compression. You have said
it yourself twice: "But when I convert the image to a JPEG it appears." "The
problem occurs immediately as I convert the file as a JPEG!".
When you first save it, use quality 10, Baseline standard. Better still do
your conversion from RAW to a tiff then you will not get this problem at
all. Jpg was invented for posting pictures on the web, not for saving good
quality pictures such as those that you take. Try it and see.
Good luck, it's long past my bedtime here in the UK.
--
Geoff J.
Geoff J
> Incidentally here's another pixentral link:
> http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1IJY1U6RghQ93Tor2BUu5aIYS3VSb1
>
> Note the concentric rings on the wall behind the tree.
>
> The appearnce of these things is almost like Newton's Rings from my old
> film days --- although caused by totally different reasons.
Pat, I've quickly saved a file twice, one high compression, one low. This is
exagerated but it shows my point. Take a look, see how the background goes
blocky in the high compression jpg? The low one is fairly smooth.
http://www.gjphotographic.co.uk/test/test1_low.jpg
http://www.gjphotographic.co.uk/test/test1_high.jpg
Paddy's Pig
Well I see your point. My only questions are 1) is converting from RAW/NEF
a form of "saving"?, and 2) if so, how can I regulate or choose the saving
compression at that stage (since I've never opted to do that --- high or
low --- in my life prior to now, and 3) how come I've never seen the
phenomonon before?
If I've been doing it wrong all along I should have been getting lousy
results for the past several years but I haven't. Indeed my results are
generally regarded as excellent.
It still seems as though something has changed.
Nonetheless your two examples above are duly noted and somehow may figure
into a solution for this.
Thanks again Geoff.
--
Pat Durkin
email: t o b a c c o h a t e r 1 @ y a h o o . c o m
PS - One other example to illustrate what I mean when I say by my statements
that I have not had this problem before:
http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1yEenMlWtT4evTgLcsgrhkeTWIMDd0
Please note that in this old Packard automobile there is a smooth transition
from high to low tones in all the color ranges in the entire photograph.
And there are no blocks or clumps of pixels. The picture was made a day or
two before I began having the current problem --- while using the exact same
methods. If my methods were faulty, why did I get such an acceptable
result? How, if I didn't change anything, was that possible on a consistent
day-after-day, month-after-month basis? I'm not without experience in PS
and I am confused right now.
Paddy's Pig
> PS - One other example to illustrate what I mean when I say by my
> statements that I have not had this problem before:
> http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1yEenMlWtT4evTgLcsgrhkeTWIMDd0
> Please note that in this old Packard automobile there is a smooth
> transition from high to low tones in all the color ranges in the entire
> photograph. And there are no blocks or clumps of pixels. The picture was
> made a day or two before I began having the current problem --- while
> using the exact same methods. If my methods were faulty, why did I get
> such an acceptable result? How, if I didn't change anything, was that
> possible on a consistent day-after-day, month-after-month basis? I'm not
> without experience in PS and I am confused right now.
Oh crap! Now after posting the above I clicked open the link just to
double-check and I see waves of color gradations in the silver paint on the
car's door. I swear they weren't there in the original.
Maybe I'm having some kind of hardware problem that's degrading everything I
see on this monitor.
Geoff J
>
> Oh crap! Now after posting the above I clicked open the link just to
> double-check and I see waves of color gradations in the silver paint on
> the car's door. I swear they weren't there in the original.
>
> Maybe I'm having some kind of hardware problem that's degrading everything
> I see on this monitor.
>
Pat, perhaps the artifacts have always been there but you have not noticed
them because you were not looking for them?
On a different note, you are posting using a newsreader and your posts do
not show up on the web-based Adobe forum. I suggest that you got to the
forum at www.adobeforums.com/webx/.ee6b366/ and register, then repost your
original question. There are a lot of experienced clever people in there,
including people from Adobe, who will be able to look at your problems. I
guess that they will tell you the same as me, that you should not convert
your NEF files to jpgs, but save them as tiffs, only save as jpgs when you
have to put an image on the web or in a.b.p.o.
--
Geoff J.
Paddy's Pig
>>
>> Oh crap! Now after posting the above I clicked open the link just to
>> double-check and I see waves of color gradations in the silver paint on
>> the car's door. I swear they weren't there in the original.
>>
>> Maybe I'm having some kind of hardware problem that's degrading
>> everything I see on this monitor.
>
> Pat, perhaps the artifacts have always been there but you have not noticed
> them because you were not looking for them?
No - I've got a pretty critical eye and pretty high standards.
But now I think I've found the root of my problem. I went to another
computer and viewed some of my posts and they're fine. The noise in the
hummingbird picture was just that - noise - nothing more, and only because I
shot at a high ISO speed. What really alarmed me was something I was seeing
on other pictures where there was a flat surface in varying shades of light
(like that door on that old Packard). Instead of a smooth transition from
light to dark it was "stepping" in lines about every 1/8 or an inch. Very
distracting. Also showed up as concentric circles in some scenes.
I see no evidence of that on the other monitor so I'll conclude there's
something going wrong with the one I use. I hate to spend the money on a
new one but at least I think I can rule out some kind of PhotoShop
malfunction.
Geoff J
>>> Oh crap! Now after posting the above I clicked open the link just to
>>> double-check and I see waves of color gradations in the silver paint on
>>> the car's door. I swear they weren't there in the original.
>>>
>>> Maybe I'm having some kind of hardware problem that's degrading
>>> everything I see on this monitor.
>>
>> Pat, perhaps the artifacts have always been there but you have not
>> noticed them because you were not looking for them?
>
> No - I've got a pretty critical eye and pretty high standards.
>
> But now I think I've found the root of my problem. I went to another
> computer and viewed some of my posts and they're fine. The noise in the
> hummingbird picture was just that - noise - nothing more, and only because
> I shot at a high ISO speed. What really alarmed me was something I was
> seeing on other pictures where there was a flat surface in varying shades
> of light (like that door on that old Packard). Instead of a smooth
> transition from light to dark it was "stepping" in lines about every 1/8
> or an inch. Very distracting. Also showed up as concentric circles in
> some scenes.
>
> I see no evidence of that on the other monitor so I'll conclude there's
> something going wrong with the one I use. I hate to spend the money on a
> new one but at least I think I can rule out some kind of PhotoShop
> malfunction.
>
>
In that case, check if your display settings have changed from 32bit to
16bit.
--
Geoff J.