InDesign Missing Font Problems

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

Can't get InDesign to display Adobe Type 1 Zapf Dingbats. I can use ITC Zapf Dingbats, but this is a True Type font, which I would rather not use. I suspect there are other Type 1 fonts ID is not recognizing. This happened after upgrading to ID CS2.

They appear to be OK in Adobe Type Manager 4.1 and I've tried uninstalling and reinstalling them to no avail.

Any help is appreciated.

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

There may be a name conflict if you have both the TT and T1 versions installed.

You can also try deleting all of the Adobefnt*.lst files (do a search).

[Alex_V._K...@adobeforums.com]

Try to uninstall TT version at first.

Well known Zapf Dingbats Type 1 font has the file name: ZD______.pfm, PostScript name: "ITC Zapf Dingbats", and when installed it appears under Windows name: "ZapfDingbats" (no space!).

Make sure TT and Type 1 fonts doesn't conflict by Windows name.
You can detect font conflicts using FontExpert font manager.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

> I can use ITC Zapf Dingbats, but this is a True Type font, which I would rather not use.

Any particular reason why you don't want to use TrueType fonts?

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

I took another look and have the following questions:

How do I tell ID2 to look for Type 1 fonts in the correct folder? In my case it is C:\PSFONTS. It appears ID2 is only looking for fonts in C:\Windows\Fonts\ where I normally keep ttf fonts.

Why does ID2 appear to ignore the installed font lists and locations in ATM?

Any particular reason why you don't want to use TrueType fonts?

No problem using ttf fonts if they are well behaved. I've never had a problem, but my printers urge caution as they have had problems. It's also a pain to change my existing documents from zapfdingbats to dings___.ttf. This problem occurred when I upgraded to ID2.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

You cannot direct ID to look in particular folders for fonts. It will use any system-installed fonts as well as any in the Adobe common fonts folder. Any properly installed fonts being managed by ATM Deluxe will appear in Windows\Fonts (but note that the files do not reside there). Apart from support for multiple master fonts, ATM Light will add nothing to XP's native font support. If you have installed ATM4.0 or you have previously removed ATM4.1, you will likely have disrupted XP's font installation, so you'll need to run the 4.1.2 patch.

What fonts is ID ignoring?

> Using TrueType fonts in pdf files sometimes come out wrong since Acrobat doesn't always convert them correctly.

I'll say it before Dov does, though my words obviously won't carry the same weight as his - utter baloney! Acrobat has had support for TrueType fonts for many years. There should be no problems using TT fonts in any up-to-date workflow, as long as the fonts are properly constructed (and badly made fonts are not restricted to the TT format).

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

I should have clarified that Acrobat can misinterpret badly made TT fonts. I apologize if it sounded like I was criticizing an Adobe product.

Where does one get this 4.1.2 patch? I searched the adobe web site but came up with nothing.

Without going thru every one, it appears there is a good correlation between ID and windows/fonts, except ID is ignoring ZapfDingbats ZD______.PFM and using ITC ZapfDingbats instead (which is turned off using ATM.) I thought I'd use XP to reinstall it, but XP only shows TT and OT fonts.

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

I think this is it, even though it says 4.0.

<http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=1553>

VERY hard to find if you don't search for the filename.

[Dov Isaacs]

Horst,

For what it is worth, Acrobat or anything else also misinterprets badly made Type 1 and OpenType fonts. In my many years in this business, I have seen at least as many improperly / badly made Type 1 fonts as I have seen improperly / badly made TrueType fonts.

(Note that neither Adobe nor I make any money off of TrueType fonts. But the pure drivel about problems TrueType fonts is more related to snobbery related to the font and platform wars of the early 1990s than reality!)

- Dov

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

But the pure drivel about problems TrueType fonts is more related to snobbery
related to the font and platform wars of the early 1990s than reality!

Which is really pretty funny when you consider that TrueType was an Apple-invented technology.

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

You guys are more experienced than me, I've only bought T1 fonts through Adobe, ITC and others, and never had a problem. Most of my font misbehaviors come from the free TT fonts available on the web, which is probably asking for trouble. Sometimes you need them and you just gotta be vigilant about checking proofs.

Remember the 6th (but somewhat dated) commandment of DTP: "Though shalt not bear false witness against thy service bureau's output when thine input is to blame."

[Steve_...@adobeforums.com]

Most of my font misbehaviors come from the free TT fonts available on
the web, which is probably asking for trouble.

Yes, beware of fonts (of either flavor) that hang around in disreputable places!

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Sometimes you need them and you just gotta be vigilant about checking
proofs.

I submit that you never need a bad font. You might WANT the look of some free piece of (insert word of choice here) font, but you NEED to be able to send your work to print, so you NEED to use fonts that you can rely on.

Most fonts are inexpensive enough that their cost can be recovered in the time you don't spend redoing a job that wouldn't output or in not troubleshooting application or system crashes caused by defective fonts, plus the output will probably look better to boot.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

Like Peter, I've never needed a bad font. Many free fonts are just bad conversions or ripoffs of reputable fonts, so you should go to the source.

> I apologize if it sounded like I was criticizing an Adobe product.

You can criticise Adobe products as often as you want - I really don't care. I'm not an employee or shareholder of Adobe and I do criticise its products myself. I challenged your comments (which I actually read as more a criticsm of the TrueType format than Acrobat/Distiller) in the interests of not perpetuating urban legends about TT fonts.

> Note you have to google from outside adobe.com or you won't find it.

There is a link in the ATM forum, though I admit that might not be where people would look.

> ID is ignoring ZapfDingbats ZD______.PFM and using ITC ZapfDingbats instead (which is turned off using ATM.)

The Adobe Type 1 Zapf Dingbats displays here in IDCS2 as ITC Zapf Dingbats. Have you checked under find font to make sure it's not using the Type 1 version?

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

Printing companies are probably the biggest critics of TT fonts.

ID Find Font lists "ITC Zapf Dingbats (TT)" only. No Adobe Zapf Dingbats on the font list even though it's installed.

Quark does the opposite, it recognizes the installed T1 Zapf Dingabats and doesn't see the ITC version.

Maybe I just won't worry about it. Possible that ITC Zapf Dingbats (TT) came with my HP laser printer.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

It's probably just another of the font conflicts. Like with Arial and TNR, if you have the TT version active, you won't see the T1 version and vice versa. The only strange bit is that said the TT font was deactivated in ATM. Are you sure it's not in activated in another set in ATM or that you've reactivated it by opening the Windows fonts folder? Where does find font say the file is located?

> Printing companies are probably the biggest critics of TT fonts.

Possibly because they're used to people using free downloaded rubbishy TT fonts, in which case they're using TT as shorthand for rubbish fonts.

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

In the Windows/Fonts folder I have
ZapfDingbats ZD______.PFM which is a shortcut to the original .PFM and .PFB files in my PSFONTS folder.

I reinstalled ZD______.PFM in case it was corrupt.

Searching under ITC, dings, and Zapf for this font. No instances of ITM Zapf Dingbats in Windows/Fonts. I removed altogether from ATM.

Did a search for adobe*.lst and deleted them.

Open up an .indd file and get the warning about missing ITC ZapfDingbats (TT)

ID2 "Find Font" lists ITC ZapfDingbats (TT), which of course doesn't exist. The installed T1 ZD doesn't show up.

Open up a Quark document. It correctly shows the installed T1 ZD.

The bottom line is why does ID2 refuse to display T1 ZD when other programs do? Why does ID2 list ITC ZD which isn't installed on my machine?

All this started with an upgrade from CS1>CS2 and WIN2K>WXP and a new HP color laser printer (which introduced ITC ZD into my system). As all Windows users know, upgrading a bunch of stuff at once is asking for trouble, but that's the the IT department does it.

I'm not too worried about this problem, but ID seems to be much more fussy about fonts that Quark.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

This is getting confusing. Earlier, you said that the TT version was turned off in ATM. But now you seem to be saying that it wasn't actually on your system at all (and maybe was a printer font). So, what path did ATM give for the font or did you not check before you removed it?

> ID2 "Find Font" lists ITC ZapfDingbats (TT), which of course doesn't exist. The installed T1 ZD doesn't show up.

Unless I missed it, you didn't say until now that we're dealing with a missing font in a file. Just to rule out a possibility, where exactly are you looking to see if ID recognises the T1 font? You shouldn't see it in the find font dialogue (except in the "replace with" drop down). Find font lists the fonts used in the active file, whether or not they're currently installed on your machine. It's not a general font menu. Look in any of the font menus (eg, in the character attributes toolbar or in the character and paragraph styles dialogues).

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

Sorry the sordid tale got a little confusing...
1. ITC and Adobe T1 ZD were both active. I discovered ITC ZD in my HP fonts folder. Ahaa! That's where ID2 was getting it from!
2. Turn off ITC ZD using ATM.
3. delete adobe*.lst files
4. reboot
5. open up an .indd document
6. Missing font warning about ITC ZD
7. click Find Font button
8. "Replace With" drop down list shows ITC ZD even though it is turned off in ATM.
9. ID2 is still finding it somewhere.
10. Move ITC ZD file (dings___.ttf) to somewhere else and rename it.
11. delete adobe*.lst files
12. reboot
13. open up an .indd document
14. Missing font warning about ITC ZD
15. click Find Font button
16. "Replace With" drop down list shows ITC ZD even though it is moved, renamed and not in ATM.

Where is ID2 finding ITC ZD? Turns out it isn't.

When I turned/off removed ITC ZD, of course you get the pink boxes for the missing fonts. I can replace the missing characters with the missing ITC ZD, but they are actually Adobe T1 ZD. The name on ID2 font list never changed from "ITC Zapf Dingbats" to "ZapfDingbats".
The font is now shown as "ITC Zapf Dingbats T1" (formerly "ITC Zapf Dingbats TT") and the packaged font is now the T1 ZD .pfm and .pfb files.

I guess that solves the mystery, but doesn't explain why ID2 behaves this way. Maybe "ITC Zapf Dingbats" is the proper name no matter what the file source.

[Thomas_...@adobeforums.com]

Yes, that is correct. The only versions of Zapf Dingbats anywhere are licensed from ITC, as it is an ITC design. The only question is how the name is displayed.

T

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

> Maybe "ITC Zapf Dingbats" is the proper name no matter what the file source.

Yes, well, Horst did point that out way back in post 2: "Well known Zapf Dingbats Type 1 font has the ... PostScript name: 'ITC Zapf Dingbats' and I repeated this in post 13: "The Adobe Type 1 Zapf Dingbats displays here in IDCS2 as ITC Zapf Dingbats. Have you checked under find font to make sure it's not using the Type 1 version?"

The answers to these things are often minor details, so it does pay to carefully read the posts. This could all have been sorted out after post 2.

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

"Have you checked under find font to make sure it's not using the Type 1 version?"

No, they were separate fonts and with both lodaed, ID2 used the TT font by default:
ZapfDingbats (T1) ZD______.PFM
ITC Zapf Dingbats (TT) dings___.ttf

Now that I removed dings___.ttf, ID2 reverted to ZD______.PFM which keeps me from having to change numerous documents.

I hope font management is more interactive and informative in future ID versions. I could manage my fonts better, but this is a corporate computer on a network remotely managed by the IT department. Sometimes they change stuff.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

> No, they were separate fonts

Actually, my question there related to your statement that ID was continuing to use TT ITC ZD even when the TT version was deactivated or removed. I was asking whether you were sure the ITC ZD you were seeing in the font menus was in fact the TT version and that you were not just assuming it was because you were not expecting to see the ITC designation in the T1 version. And, indeed, as far as I can tell from your posts, what you were seeing at that point wasn't the TT version.

with both lodaed, ID2 used the TT font by default

Yes, this is a common issue with fonts with the same name and it's an issue that predates ID and affects many apps. You should never have two fonts with the same name active at the same time. If you look back, Peter told you this right in the very first post ("There may be a name conflict if you have both the TT and T1 versions installed"), and Alex repeated this in post 2 ("Make sure TT and Type 1 fonts doesn't conflict by Windows name"). I repeated this advice again in post 15. ("It's probably just another of the font conflicts. Like with Arial and TNR, if you have the TT version active, you won't see the T1 version and vice versa." Though I don't know what I was thinking with the vice versa bit - at least in my setup, the TT version always takes precedence.)

> I hope font management is more interactive and informative in future ID versions.

Well, ID doesn't actually do font management. That's up to the user and specialised font-mangement software. The issue is that you had two fonts with the same name active at the same time. An app is not a mind-reader - how can it know which of the two fonts you want to use? In any case, under Windows these days auotactivation of fonts is just about impossible, so font management will remain a user task.

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

"what you were seeing at that point wasn't the TT version"

I saw "ITC Zapf Dingbats (TT)" even though it was inactivated. It was not until I physically removed it that I saw "ITC Zapf Dingbats (T1)" in ID2

"You should never have two fonts with the same name active at the same time"

I didn't know I did since "ITC Zapf Dingbats (TT)" came with the HP printer and was installed without me knowing it.

"Well, ID doesn't actually do font management."

I didn't mean to imply that it does the font management. It probably more accurate to say ID is dumb about fonts. It would be an improvement if future versions of ID would let you pre-build a list of fonts that you plan to use in a document, allow you to see the path to them, let you know if they are TT or T1, allow you to call up the sample page, etc. Choosing fonts is one of the first steps in designing a document, and once you have your layout, you don't need to see the other 200 fonts you have installed. The next step would then be to create your style sheets.

"The issue is that you had two fonts with the same name active at the same time. An app is not a mind-reader - how can it know which of the two fonts you want to use?"

Because the app is dumb? They have different files names. Files with different names shouldn't conflict. It's poor font management software that causes the problem. Good font management software would warn of the conflict or simply list them both.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter as either one will work.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

I have to say I'm completely confused by all this. Earlier, you said that, after deactivating the TT version you got a missing font warning for ZD TT version in ID but that the ZD TT was still showing up in the find fonts dropdown. I don't see how you can get a missing font message when the font is available - that's something I've never seen. I've also never had a problem with ID not recognising that a font was deactivated in ATM; you should not have to delete a duplicate font, just deactivate it. Perhaps you had another copy of ZD TT somewhere or maybe you were reactivating it by opening the Windows fonts folder.

> Because the app is dumb? They have different files names. Files with different names shouldn't conflict.

Apps don't care about font filenames. These days, font filenames do usually carry the font name, but how would an old 8.3 filename have reflected the name "ITC Zapf Dingbats"? What matters is not the filename but the internal font name. Thomas Phinney of Adobe explained the situation as follows:

No application I am aware of ever cares about the font file name. InDesign
stores the PostScript FontName and the Adobe menu name (which is the "preferred"
menu name in an OpenType font, else is derived from a database for Type
1 fonts in the Adobe Type library, else is derived from several other
name fields in a Type 1 or TrueType font).

> It would be an improvement if future versions of ID would let you pre-build a list of fonts that you plan to use in a document, allow you to see the path to them, let you know if they are TT or T1, allow you to call up the sample page, etc.

Personally, I don't want ID to stray into font management. All this can (and, I think, should) be done with a font manager. But, in ID, find font will show you the path and the font format, plus a bunch of other things, of only the fonts used in the document. The one thing I agree with you on is that ID should have more options for the font menus - something like Ventura, where you can choose to display only publication fonts (or only TT fonts or only T1 fonts).

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

I'm just reporting what I saw. Don't worry, I think I got it figured out. I think we all get confused when software doesn't behave in a manner we expect. I suggest reading www.asktog.com

"Personally, I don't want ID to stray into font management. "

That's not what I meant, and using font management outside of ID to manage document fonts is impractical. I meant more font information for the document being worked on. We do a good job of interactive management of document colors, why not the same with fonts?

I would like to declare which fonts I'm going to use in a document ahead of time and it would probably make setting up character styles faster and less error prone. It would also reduce surprises when you package or preflight. You could have a floating window called "document fonts" that shows a list of all the fonts you are using (checked), or plan to use (unchecked). Of course you need the flexibility to add or delete fonts from the list.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

> That's not what I meant, and using font management outside of ID to manage document fonts is impractical.

It may not be what you meant, but the features you listed (see font path, show format, show sample page, show only the fonts you want to use) are exactly the core features of a font manager. And using a font manager to manage document fonts not only is not impractical but is common industry practice (and is the whole point of a font manager). While I would want ID's font menus to be customisable as I described, I can't see the point of having floating windows to build up font lists when I already can do all of this in my font manager. I'd rather see new features added to ID rather than see it duplicate existing software.

[Horst_...@adobeforums.com]

I suppose 20 years from now we'll be laughing about how primitive computers used to be.

[Ken_...@adobeforums.com]

In 20 years from now I'll probably be laughing at the colour of the
wallpaper and dribbling gently.

k

[pierr...@adobeforums.com]

Indesign type/font list spoiled;
can anyone give me a useful hint concerning my Type/fontlist in Indesign CS2 4.04 ( Mac OS X ) as a Myriad Font is appearing on different places in this alphabetical list ( at places letter B or G or elsewhere ) wheras a Gil I use has disappeared although installed in the Library/Fonts menu. By opening Indesign, the file claims all the time the missing GIL but the document seems to print OK.
Regards
Pierre

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Try doing a search for adobefnt*.lst and delete all files that are found. They will be rebuilt automatically as required. Do not delete any adobefnt*.db files.

[pierr...@adobeforums.com]

Thanks
This helped clear up the alphabetical list; but I still have instead of a GIL a Myriad Pro at that place followed by " building" instead of "Sample"; Anything wrong with the Gil Font ?
regards
Pierre

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

Seeing as you're using OS X, you might get more help posting in the ID Mac forum.

[mikes...@gmail.com]

I just updated from InDesign CS5 to CS6. So all of the system fonts are the same. Now when I try to open files in CS6 I get the dreaded "itc zapf dingbats (t1) medium" missing message. I went through suggested solutions and nothing helped.

Then I started searching for *.pfb files on a copy of CS5 installation and found that there were a bunch of fonts installed under
c:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe InDesign CS5.5\Fonts
I believe these were installed by Adobe Type manager. So I copy all files to CS6 Fonts folder and all is working now.