Embedding fonts in pdf's and eps dramas!!!
David Rafferton
Is there anyway to force them to be embedded? My printer's filmhouse is all mac (I am PC) and can not read my True Type fonts. The lack of embedding is causing major headaches, I had to create eps files of every page which is another problem in itself.
Some pages wouldn't convert to eps- I got an Adobe printer error msg. I had to save the problem pages as a pdf, then open that page in Acrobat, save to eps, open eps in photoshop, crop out printer marks and inside bleed and save as final eps.
Any help with either problem would be a huge help.
Thanks,
David
Dominic Hurley
David Rafferton
Any ideas why it wouldnt save some pages to eps? I even tried removing each object or text and save as eps with no luck.
It wouldn't even save to eps for some pages with NOTHING on the page. What's up with that? What would have been a simple thing to do (save each page to eps) turned out to be a total pain in the rear.
Any suggestions? I don't want to have to go through this hell everytime I do an issue of this magazine that I had the problems with.
George Bilalis
1. You can not change this, without violating the licensing agreement.
2. If 'embedding' is not allowed, this applies in general: NOT allowed in PDF, NOT allowed in EPS (for the same reason of not exporting the design of the font for further use). This limitation is encoded in the font itself by the font manufacturer and there is nothing you can do about it.
3. You can use other fonts that allow embedding, or
4. You can buy fonts that allow 'embedding' in place of what you have.
regards
George
Dominic Hurley
Don't know. You'd have to provide us with more information about your setup and how you're trying to creating the eps files before we could hazard a guess.
Andrew da Smith
Distiller v3 might not cope with high-end InDesign output .... practice will tell.
Otherwise you will just have to make a final copy where you convert the type to curves throughout the docuement. This will then go in to a PDF as your "type" is now actually a graphic.
Andrew
David Rafferton
Anyway, converting to outlines isnt an option considering it is body fonts that are the main problem.
Somene on another forum suggested that with fontographer I can open up a font and actually turn off the "non-embedding". Yes I know this is probably a naughty thing to do but as I said- I dont want to distribute the fonts... I just want my printers film house to be able to read my pdf's properly as they are all mac (and I am pc with TTF fonts).
I'll give the ps file to distiller idea a go and see how it works out. Cheers.
Dominic Hurley
Well, yes it does. Whether it's in a form that the average person can extract or not or is really irrelevant. The simple fact is that digital fonts are software programs and if you want to use them legally you have to abide by the terms the manufacturer has set. I think the argument against allowing embedding has to do with the added value that this provides.
If embedding is an issue for you, then simply buy fonts from a foundry whose policy is to allow embedding (like Adobe). You can get round restrictions by using Type 1 fonts, font editors or font utilities, or early versions of Distiller, but it doesn't make it any less a breach of the licensing contract you agree to when you buy the fonts.
Your problems are by no means unique. OpenType fonts make it much easier to go from Mac to PC and vice versa, but, short of embedding, the only sure way to deal with the issue is to make sure your service bureau has the equivalent fonts to the ones you use.
George Bilalis
Somene on another forum suggested that with fontographer I can open up
a font and actually turn off the "non-embedding". Yes I know this is probably
a naughty thing to do but as I said- I dont want to distribute the fonts...
I just want my printers film house to be able to read my pdf's properly
as they are all mac (and I am pc with TTF fonts).
Doing this is like erasing the copyright sign from a product and change it with yours. Believe it or not, by embedding you actually distribute the font, since this way the code of the font is transfered intact along with your document to somebody else. Using a font editing program to modify copyright limitations actually proves intention, in case the font owner might ask his rights.
The best solution is to either find a service bureau better equiped with fonts, or buy yourself new fonts. I think going to Acro3 isn't an option these days.
Regards
George
Mike Witherell
"When you embed a font ... that doesnt mean you are distributing the font
does it? Well, yes it does."
Of course it doesn't, in actual practice. It is no different than using your licensed fonts for output of your particular job. I, the average recipient of your PDF, could not extract your embedded font for use on my computer, could I? So how does it constitute distribution?
But how some companies want to view that issue, and then also, what many assume the *law* to be on such issues varies widely. While not exactly law, a software company still may choose to build such limitations into the software font file and into their agreements with you the licensor (licensee?). It strikes me as needlessly protective toward no real end.
Mike Witherell in Washington DC
Ian A. Wright
> ... everytime I do an issue of this magazine ... <<
If you mess with the fonts so you can use them illegally you're wide open to legal action. As a professional, you should not even consider it. Your best bet is to not purchase or use those fonts. That way the font factory will get the message and you'll stay out of court!
Mike Witherell
Bah!! This whole issue is just plain dumb to me. ... Talk about stupidity!!!
To quote Ferris Bueller: "...but so is the legal system... " I may not have quoted that accurately, but don't run afoul of money interests and have your magazine be opportunistically victimized.
Mike Witherell
David Rafferton
I'm not in a position to use a different film house (thats the printers issue to deal with) and nor am I an a position to use a different printer (clients choice). As for using a different font... well... again that seems a stupid idea. Why comprimise the look and feel of a magazine over a simple issue like being able to embed a font into a pdf. Talk about stupidity!!!
Copywrite is one thing.. but this is over the top! Bah to you FontFont...
Guy Smiley
George Bilalis
I suggest you start your editing with spelling. You wrote :
Copywrite is one thing.. but this is over the top! Bah to you FontFont...
Using the correct spelling it goes "copyright" - the owners right to limit illegitimate copies. Using your spelling "copywrite" I read "to write copies". If FontFont so wishes, so it is: no embedding.
It's up to you not to buy and use their product, it's not up to you to violate the license agreement that you first accepted pressing the button "Accept". End of story.
George
Dominic Hurley
It is different because you are including font code in the PDF. And, as I wrote, I believe some foundries view the embedding of fonts as an added value over and above the ability to print out a document using that font. And it's pretty hard to dispute this - I certainly think it's an advantage to be able to supply a PDF that will print out with the font I chose to typeset it with. Let's be clear, though - I'm not saying that I agree with this position. And if you don't agree with a foundry's licence conditions, then simply don't buy fonts from that foundry and let them know that's why you won't buy from them.
David, you say that using a different font "seems a stupid idea". I guess the response is that, if you plan to distribute a document with fonts embedded, then you have to choose a font whose licence allows this to begin with. Just as you have typographic considerations that you must consider before choosing a font (space, audience, styles required, etc, etc), so must you consider distribution issues (PDF embedding, whether your service bureau holds the font or will buy it, etc). To me, it's akin to me choosing a font, setting the copy, then finding I need a bold variant for a heading but the font I've chosen doesn't come with a bold. All these things have to be thought of up front.
David Rafferton
Sheesh.. this has got to be the most uptight forum I have ever been on in over 8 years of design and forum interaction. Just relax a bit boys...
Spelling... I have a heck of a lot more important things to do that carefully edit my posts to a fricken forum... I bang out my message and then get on with my work... which I have more than I can handle as it is without having to deal with this crap!
And as for FontFonts licencing aggreement.. yes.. im sure it does specify somewhere in the fineprint of the purchase that it does not allow embedding... but who the hell reads all the fine print of every peice of softwear???? I know I sure as hell don't have the time to do that? Talk about anal!
I'm not about to go breaking the law and ripping oh mighty fontfont off... and I'm not stupid either(which many of your posts seem to sarcasticly indicate that I am thanks very much!). I was JUST looking for a way to quicken my workflow without hurting anyone. And NO, I still dont belive that embedding a font is distributing the font.
Im sure I will be flamed for this post but at this stage I think if i said - "shit" or "poo" I would be censored for that too. Yes I am pissed off!
ALL I asked was a simple damm question.. and then I expressed an opinion that the lack of ability to embed was a serious lack or usability in this day and age of wide use of pdf's, and I get jumped on.
I am sooo damm over this... just move on guys... let it go and breath... while you are it, loosen the top button of your shirt too!
Let the flaming commence ->
Dominic Hurley
As for not reading all the fine print, I guess that's up to you, but I'm just saying that if you plan to create PDFs then maybe you should check the embedding restrictions of your intended font before you get so far down the track that it becomes a major pain to change the font. Hardly seems like a major imposition on your time to do that. Especially not given the consequences of not checking. And if you really don't want to read the fine print, just check the embedding permissions with a font utility. I think the extended Windows font utility shows them.
By the bye, you didn't come back with any further details on your eps problem. Did you sort that out?
Ken Grace
compatibility - that David is working on PC, his prepress people are on
Macs, and that he wants to send a PDF as a means of bridging the gap?
As PDF is meant to be platform-independent, shouldn't a PDF containing
non-embedded fonts from a PC open OK on a Mac with the Mac versions of those
fonts installed?
k
George Bilalis
what you say is basically correct. My opinion is that you should be able to do so (Cross-platform use of referenced fonts, generally speaking).
It seems that when the concept was defined there was no cross platform possibility to think about, so maybe this has to be redefined.
On the other hand it's totally amazing for people to show such misunderstanding of legal obligations and show disrespect of intellectual property and software copyrighting (even more so from a country standing out first among others in promotting a justified international war against software piracy).
And David, it's clear you don't have time to read the small print, but this doesn't mean we are fricks (as you wrote) because we do.
It's each man on each own. Thanks
George
Guy Smiley
Showing a little respect for the people from whom you are trying to get free troubleshooting help goes a long way towards actually getting you the help you need.
tys
I'm new here. It seems a great forum but I also think the reactions you got are a bit anal ;). Some people tend to behave like that when it involves legal issues I've noticed. Not that there is anything wrong with that..but I think in your case it wasn't really necessary.
Anyways..so what about converting your text to curves within Indesign 'n then export ur doccie as pdf. I think this way you're not gonna have those irri embedding probs and.. it's legal (as far as I know) :).
Hope this helps,
Tys
Dominic Hurley
tys
;)
Andrew da Smith
Andrew
David Rafferton
Tys, thank you for noticing the anal responses.
And yes, converting to curves is what I will be doing next time I can tell you. After all the headaches that makes my life sooooooo much simpler, even if its not a particular graceful sollution.
I wasnt able to sort out the eps problems. What i had to end up doing was- saving to pdf, opening pdf and convert that to eps, opening eps in photoshop, cropping and then do a final save to eps for EVERY page. That is just way too much hassel.
For the future, I'll just save one version of the mag as text and another with all text converted to outlines (tho any outlines on text become a problem when converted to curves but there is a work around for that). Then all I have to do is save to pdf and the job is done.
Now I have the first issue done (60 pages in 1 week including writting a few stories!) I will work on testing things out before the next issue so i dont have any 4 am problems again.
Yes i could get mac versions of the fonts but the client I am doing this mag for has a zero budget and I'm not about to go spending my hard earned cash on fonts I can't use.
BTW- The first issue came out a charm.
George Bilalis- Try re reading my post. I said "fricken forum"... I did not call you a frick. Fricken is a nice way of saying fucking.
Guy Smiley- I did show plenty of respect to the forum members to start with. And even after i had people be somewhat sarcastic to me in their replys I continued to show respect towards them. however once i was tut-tuted about my spelling and for my apparent lack of brains- yes I got shitty. If you are refering to my spelling as a lack of respect for others... gimmie a break! I make no appologise for that either by the way. I stand by my words (even if the spelling is incorrect)!
Ken Grace
mag for has a zero budget and I'm not about to go spending my hard earned
cash on fonts I can't use.
When I referred to that I had in mind that the printer/repro company would
get them. In my experience any company that wanted to handle my repro has
been prepared to invest in the fonts to do it. That's one way repro
companies get to build font libraries.
k
David Rafferton
Film houses don't want or need fonts.. they only have them to output clients work and if a client supplies the font- the film house saves costs which can be passed on to the client.
Anyway, who here can honestly say they don't have at least one font they didn't pay for (ie a font from a friend, supplied by a client, etc)?
John O
didn't pay for (ie a font from a friend, supplied by a client, etc)?
I can. Scout's Honor. :-) But I'm my own client; we write and publish the
books we sell.
John O
Dominic Hurley
One thing I think you are overlooking is that this is a forum provided by Adobe. I'm sure you're not alone in thinking the licensing requirements for fonts are not realistic, but, given that the forum is Adobe's, and Adobe is a major font foundry, I think many posters here bear that in mind when replying to posts that deal with legal issues. I'm sorry if I misintrepreted your original post, but I did take it to be partly a query as to how to circumvent the licensing restriction and embed the fonts.
Thomas Phinney
One way in which fonts differ from a lot of other software is that fonts are not a very profitable business. Making them is at once a very creative and highly technical endeavor, and yet very few of the people who do it make a very good living. A major reason for that is that the ratio of piracy to legitimate licensing is so much higher for fonts than for other software. However, even those who think it's okay to steal from huge "faceless" software companies ought to be thinking twice before ripping off fonts.
A few words about licensing terms and the like. On the one hand, Adobe chooses to have all of its fonts allow embedding for output. Some of them even allow "editable embedding" so you're allowed to change the document with the embedded fonts. Adobe's license even allows you to modify the fonts (for example, convert them for compatibility with another application or OS platform), which few other foundries allow these days. So Adobe strongly favors enabling users to do what they need to do in order to get their work done. That's our choice, and one which I think users should appreciate.
That being said, we completely support the right of each font vendor to set the licensing terms for the fonts they sell. If the terms are too onerous, don't buy the fonts!
David:
It's too bad that you think that for members of this forum to support font vendors' freedom to make choices about others' use of their property (and hence their livelihoods), they are being "anal" and "uptight." If they were suggesting that it would be wrong for some third party to steal your work, would you still call them names?
(Note: I have retroactively edited one forum post which suggested non-obvious methods to violate font embedding restrictions, to eliminate the details of the methodology.)
Thomas Phinney
Fonts Program Mgr.
Adobe Systems
David Rafferton
I wasnt saying that people were being anal because they were pointing out font licening issues.. I said they were being anal in their picking on my spelling and for a lack of "real world" thinking when it comes to font embedding.
As for calling names... the tone of several of the posts was pretty heavey handed and uncalled for and I didnt appreciate it one little bit. Hence my aggressive post. If you are unable to see that... well I guess theres nothing I can do about that can I?
ALL I WAS SAYING (ONCE AGAIN) WAS IT SEEMED A BIT STUPID TO NOT ALLOW EMBEDDING OF A FONT INTO A PDF, CONCIDERING THAT THE THE FONT CAN NOT BE EXTRACTED FROM THE DOCUMENT (AS FAR AS I CAN SEE ANYWAY). I DIDNT REALISE AN OPINION WAS A DIRTY WORD ON THIS FORUM.
Thanks anyway guys.. I was prepared to play nice, offer help to others and be a good forum member but this one just plain gives me the creeps (well, thats too general.. some of you do).
I'll just go back to the forum where I usually find a wealth of help and support... and a lack of moral judgement and tut-tutting.
Lifes too short for crap like that. Cya!
Andrew da Smith
Your words speak for you better than anyone elses can.
Thomas, I never thought that I would get [deleted] by Adobe. Still, it's always good to know that you guys are listening. The Adobe staff difference is worth a lot to me.
Andrew
Ian A. Wright
Just for clarification, Thomas is NOT a Host here -- he's another User just like you and I who happens to work for Adobe. We are absolutely correct that, "The Adobe staff difference is worth a lot ..." to all of us.
P.S. I did the [deleted by Host] stuff. That's a tiny part of my job. And I don't work for Adobe or even live in the USA! (grin)
Thomas Phinney
Actually, I think Andrew was referring to my editing of message 5 of this thread, which I made a reference to in my message 30.
So, actually, I'm not exactly just another user. AFAIK, very few Adobe staff do have such "sysop" powers on the fora. I requested them a while back when I spotted somebody asking somebody to email them fonts, and all I could do was send an email to somebody I knew who had appropriate sysop powers.
The only things I have ever used this ability for are:
- to hinder piracy and illegal activities
- to correct a significant typo
Other than that, yes, I'm just a user. I generally don't try to police the fora in any way. But if something egregious or dangerous comes up, I'll deal with it.
Regards,
T
Dominic Hurley
Ian A. Wright
Thanks for clarifying ... again! (grin)
Andrew da Smith
It costs me an arm and a leg, but I do take much enjoyment from being legal with my software.
<Andrew pays homage to Thomas (o' great type guru) and Ian (holder of the big red button) :-) >
Andrew
Dominic Hurley
Andrew da Smith
Unless New Zealand win the rugby or cricket or something .... :-)
Andrew