Re: InDesign CS3 -> PDF = fuzzy font, and random bold

[Luke_...@adobeforums.com]

I would say the text is being made up in CMYK in the pdf not just K.

If you check the output preview in Acrobat. Hide the Black plate does the text still appear?

If so you need to look at your colour settings when exporting the PDF from InDesign.

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

Hello,

When I print straight from InDesign CS3, Garamond font looks fine. When I export to PDF, then print from Acrobat Professional 8, version 8.1.2, the Garamond font is not as crisp-looking. Also, when I print the PDF from Acrobat, there are a 2 or 3 lines of Garamond text (seemingly randomly dispersed among the rest of the text, although they're the same lines every time) that actually look like they're bold, even though they're not, in the original.

The fonts seem to be embedded. I am printing to a Ricoh Aficio MP C2500 PCL6 printer in both cases. I am running Windows XP Professional (Version 5.1) Service Pack 2.

This happens when I print in color. When I print in black and white, everything looks pretty crisp from Adobe Acrobat Professional.

Thanks so much for your help.

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

In the Output dialog, I changed Color Conversion from "No Color Conversion" to "Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)". Destination is "U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2)". Profile Inclusion Policy is "Include Destination Profile".

Then, in Acrobat I check output preview and hide the Black plate. The text does not appear. However, I get the exact same result with the same lines looking bold when I print in color from Acrobat. (Also, there is some color text, and it looks slightly out-of-focus as well. This color text is using BellGothic Blk BT font.)

Thank you so much for your help.

[Luke_...@adobeforums.com]

If the text only appears on the black plate your PDF is getting made correctly from InDesign. Sounds like you may have a print setting wrong in Acrobat instead.

You don't have "Print as Image" turned on in the Advanced print settings in Acrobat do you?

This could cause fuzzy text and slower print times.

Actually, now that I think of it probably isn't a wrong setting in Acrobat because your distilled file prints fine from Acrobat.

Now I'am thinking it is a print driver problem.

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

It seems that if I print to PDF, and then print to the printer from Acrobat, I don't see anything fuzzy or bold, the text looks just as good as printing directly from InDesign.

I looked into it some, would it be because of CID fonts? Is Garamond converted to CID by the "export" command? And then the printer can't handle it?

I guess the problem is solved but it would be great to know why. Also we do have some pdfs around that are printing fuzzy. I exported one to Microsoft Word and it looks better when printed directly from Microsoft Word. ????

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Could be a color conversion in the Acrobat print dialog. Click the advanced button and see what the color management settings are in the output section.

Peter

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

In one test, I did turn on the "Print as Image" setting -- that made everything consistently fuzzy and bold-looking, instead of just those few lines.

What should I have in the color management settings in the output section? I have the following:

Color: Composite
Color Profile: Printer/PostScript Color Management
Transparency Flattener Preset: [Medium Resolution]

and "Use Maximum Available JPEG2000 Image Resolution" is checked.

Thanks again for all your help...

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Try "Same As Source (No Color Management)"

Peter

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

Hi there, I tried "Same As Source (No Color Management)" but it did the same thing as before--with a few of the lines of Garamond text looking bold.

I've tried quite a few different options, but only these options actually seem to have any effect:

1. Print from InDesign
looks good*
2. In InDesign: Print to PDF, then print from Acrobat *looks good*
3. In InDesign: Export to PDF, print from Acrobat
Print as Image checked *everything fuzzy*
3. In InDesign: Export to PDF, print from Acrobat
Print as Image unchecked *only a few lines fuzzy*

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

A few lines fuzzy or bold sounds as if it might be a transparency flattening issue. Is there any transparency in the problem areas -- drop shadow, blend mode, anything at all?

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

Hi, is there any chance I could email it to you? Otherwise, it might take a while to set up...

Thank you so much for all your help.

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

Hello,

I changed the original InDesign file to make it as simple as I could. It now has one text box. Within the text box is one word in BellGothic Blk BT, in color. Next are 5 lines of b&w Garamond text. The first line looks crisp, but the 4 lines after look bold and fuzzy when I export to PDF and then print from Acrobat. They all look crisp and good when I print to PDF and then print from Acrobat.

There is no transparency anywhere (that I can figure out). The Page Master is [none]. There is only one layer.

I did CTL-A in InDesign to select everything. I looked at "Effects" in the tool palette and it says "Normal" for everything, and Opacity is 100%.

????

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

Hi Peter, you are right. I will try to look for a place to post it. Meantime, I am emailing you. Thanks again.

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

Hello again,

Here's something I just tried that gave interesting results.

In the exported version of the PDF, from Acrobat, I did the following:

* Tools -> Advanced Editing -> TouchUp Text Tool

* Select one of the lines of text that is coming out bold and fuzzy.

* Right-click -> Properties

* Font: "Garamond" change to "AGaramondPro-Regular"

* Click "Close"

* Select same line of text.

* Font: "AGaramondPro-Regular" change back to "Garamond"

* Click "Close"

* Save

* Print

That line of text comes out crisp now.

Makes me think it's an issue with CID fonts.

????

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Can you package, zip, and post the file on a server somewhere?

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

You are welcome to mail it to spammercatch at comcast dot net.

The advantage to posting would be that more people will have a chance to download and have a look at it, so your odds of getting a really good, and fast, answer are increased.

Peter

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

Or, is it multibyte fonts? Is there a difference between CID fonts and multibyte fonts? I am thinking the problem is with our printer driver, as Luke thought before.

Thanks again...

[Denise_...@adobeforums.com]

I am having exactly the same problem that Andrea Matthews is. I have the same computer and software setup, and the same printer which I've also been using for the past year, although I just had a scanner driver installed over the weekend to scan from the printer.

I am working off InDesign files that I use all the time, just change text and resave. I haven't had this problem before with the same file, same fonts I've been using for the past year, it just started to happen a couple days ago. One thing I have noticed is that when I export to "smallest file size" as opposed to PDFx-3 I don't get the fuzzies or bolds.

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Andrea,

I just got back from school and took a look at what you sent.

Number one, you haven't used the same settings when exporting as distilling, and I don't know what they were in either case. Can you let us know. The distilled PDF (Printed to PDF) is in RGB, the exported is in CMYK.

Number two, I've printed the exported PDF to my PCL monochrome laser and my Xerox Phaser 790 which is a genuine postscript printer, and they both show jagged type, which is due to the color being only 95% black, and no emboldening anywhere.

Number three, I've exported a couple of PDFs myself, and they also show the font embedded in both regular and CID encoded subsets, which is not surprising since there are ligatures, but in my attempts there are only two subsets, one for the first line (not CID) and the CID subset for the remainder. In your export, the five lines are each a separate subset and text object. Your distilled version has three subsets, but only one text object, mine are also a single text object.

At this point I don't know if the differences in the my PDFs are due to settings or the font itself. My Garamond font is TrueType flavored OpenType, version 2.30 from Monotype. The actual filename is GARA.TTF.

Can you tell us what settings you are using to both export and print these PDFs? I must say, though, that I think your fuzzies are the color tint, and the bolding problems are probably the print driver since I don't see them here.

[Andrea_...@adobeforums.com]

I am only now learning about CID fonts and subsets...

I guess I am most concerned about the bold effect, which seems directly related to wherever there is a CID font. The text that is not bold looks okay to me.

I am now thinking pretty definitely that the problem is with the CID fonts, and I am following up with our printer provider.

I did notice that I could only select one line at a time with the exported version using the TouchUp Text tool. However, with the distilled version, I could select the whole thing at once. Is this caused by some kind of setting when I export?

Is there a way to make export not do CID fonts?

My Garamond font file name is: GARA.TTF and version 2.3
from Monotype. The icon has an "o" so I assume it's OpenType.

Thank you so much for your help. I have really learned a lot about fonts this week.

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

CID encoding is used for characters and glyphs not included in the standard ASCII 256 character map, such as ligatures, ornaments, swashes and the like, in OpenType fonts. With older formats these extra characters required additional special fonts.

Support for this has been part of the Postscript specification for quite some time, but many applications (like Microsoft word)and some printer drivers are unable to properly process the font information with a variety of results.

You and I are using the same version of Garamond, so I would say that the number of text objects (what you can select at once with the touch-up tool)in the PDF must be a result of differences in the export settings we used. I used the press quality preset, and the same preset modified to Acrobat 1.5 compatibility, to try to match your output, but I didn't go further. My guess would be that you may have used the "Standard" preset when printing to PDF because I'm pretty sure that is the default unless you change it in the printer properties.

I saw absolutely no difference in the type between any of the samples on screen, and no differences in my prints from two different printers, but I can't test on your model because I don't own it. I'm also running ID 5.0.2 and Acrobat 8.1.2 on XP pro SP2, so I think it's fair to say the only significant difference in the tests is the printers.

Peter

[Alo...@adobeforums.com]

I have a similar problem, I have just sent a document to print. It looked fine in the pdf and on the cromalin proofs, but when it went through the Rip to plate and printed 3000 copies, the text(where it was over an image) seemed to have rasterised to a low quality making it darker than the other text and have jagged edges but only where it was over a watermark image? the even stranger thing is that the text that is in colour over the image did not do this it was fine, only the black text? The printer is saying it is my fault and its a fault with indesign, and the client has rejected the job. Please can someone help and tell me wethere this is my fault or not.
Thanks
Alonso

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Alonso,

Your problem sounds like a transparency flattening problem, which could be happening at either your end, or the printer's, depending on the workflow.

Did you deliver PDF or Native files for printing? If PDF, what settings did you use?

One way to reduce the risk of this sort of thing is to properly prepare your file. Keeping text above transparency in the stacking order will help, as will eliminating the use of transparency altogether when possible. I see a lot of new users, and some experienced ones, too, using transparency when they should be using tints, and as a shortcut for things like watermark images which can be made in Photoshop.

While technically there is nothing wrong with using transparency in this way, unless you need the interaction between the colors of two objects that transparency introduces, you are adding an unnecessary risk that the printer either will not know how or have the equipment able to handle the job correctly.

I agree with Simon, though. If the job didn't match the proof they should have stopped and called you. At that point it's time to figure out what happened and find a solution.

Peter

[simonwarner]

Whenever a printer cannot print what was on the proof I approved, I say
it is his fault. If the output from his press did not match the proof,
why did he keep printing. Isn't that what a proof is for.

[Marc_B...@adobeforums.com]

Hello Andrea,

We have the same problem on Ricoh MPC 2500.
Did you already find a solution?

If so, would you like to share it?

Thanx.

Marc Bogemans.

[lucy_...@adobeforums.com]

We've been going crazy with this same thing... sometimes it prints random fuzzy text directly from InDesign. Sometimes when I save it as a pdf first, there are fuzzy lines, plus it seems to lose overall quality.

I was thinking it was a problem with indesign and the copier not working together right. We have a Canon Imagerunner 5885

I have spent MANY MANY hours trying to fix this.
between indesign, pdf settings and the copier settings there are literally 100's of variations of settings to try.

[lucy_...@adobeforums.com]

Another weird thing... On this one brochure I've been trying to get PERFECT... when I deleted 2 of the words in each of the lines of fuzzy text, it printed ok.

We shouldn't have to go thru and delete random words just to make our documents print ok!!

[lucy_...@adobeforums.com]

I solved the problem (at least with printing on our copier)
I noticed the only 'fuzzy' lines had 'f' words in them...
like flesh, fulfill, field... etc.
When I capitalized the f words, there was no fuzzy text.

I called adobe a couple of times and the last time I called after discovering that it was only the "f" words... he said 'that sounds like ligatures'

So under the character tab, ligature is checked by default... unchecked it, and so far (knock on wood) everything is printing just fine.

[Som_...@adobeforums.com]

I have had this same problem. Certain sections of type print heavier or apper bolded when they are not actually bold type.

For Acrobat I just fixed the problem. Printing on the same printer (HP9500 Colour LaserJet) from the Mac is OK. From the PC random bolded type. From another PC to a different printer was fine. So it is the printer DRIVER. SO I went to the HP web site and looked for an updated driver. What I found was two kinds of drivers. PCL and PS (post script). I was using the PCL5 driver. I downloaded the post script driver and installed it as a new printer. Problem solved. All the type prints nice and crisp and clean. Much better than the PCL5 driver made it, even when it wasn't randomly bolding type.

Makes sense since everything is post script, a PS driver would work best.

On a side note: Illustrator - Set the printing/export output to vector maximum, not raster. This keeps illustrator from combining areas into images and miing vecotr and rastered objects. Most annoying

[Charles_...@adobeforums.com]

The random bolding problem is caused due to Acrobat not handling
ligatures correctly. Ligatures are special characters created
automatically for letters like "f" in relationship with other letters.
The problem must be fixed in InDesign by turning off "Ligatures." To
do this select all the text in a text box, select the "Character" tab,
and then select the character options menu in the upper right hand
corner of the dialog box (small triangle and three lines). In this
menu uncheck the check mark next to "Ligatures."

You must repeat these steps for all text boxes. Save the file and then
re-export a new PDF. This will fix the problem. Of course you can't
use ligature characters...but that will be something Adobve will need
to fix in Reader.

[Dominic...@adobeforums.com]

The random bolding problem is caused due to Acrobat not handling ligatures
correctly.

I've not heard of any such problem and I've never had any issue with ligatures myself. It should not be necessary to turn off ligatures to obtain correct PDFs. Just ensure that fonts are set to "download complete" or "download subset" and that "download PPD fonts" is checked.

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Looking back through this thread, ligatures were identified as a problem several posts back, but I believe only in relation to the specific printing scenario, i.e. on the Ricoh.

Peter

[Dov Isaacs]

Adobe knows of no such problem in Acrobat that you describe as Acrobat not handling ligatures correctly. Where did you get such misinformation?

Acrobat and Reader render whatever characters are in the PDF file with either the font embedded in the PDF file by the software generating the PDF file or if the font is not embedded, using a host version of such a font if the user's system has that same font (i.e. the same name). Lacking either an embedded version of the font or the font being installed on the system of the user with Acrobat or Reader accessing the PDF file, an Acrobat substitution font is used.

Problems with display of ligature characters can only occur as follows:

(1) Exporting PDF from InDesign, the designated font was protected and thus was not embedded. (You would have received a warning from InDesign when doing such an export operation!) In this case, when the resultant document is opened by Acrobat or Reader, an attempt is made to find the umembedded font on the user's system. If not found, a substitution font is used by Acrobat or Reader. If the substitution font does not contain the desire ligatures, you could get either square box (.notdef), a bullet, or a space character in place of the desired ligature. The same problem would occur if you used an exotic symbol or ornament character in a font. Note that the symptoms occur in the case of the unembedded font if Acrobat or Reader uses a font with the same name that differs in character set from the font composed with in InDesign; thus if you compose with a Helvetica, Times, Garamond, Arial, Palatino, etc. font and due to lack of font embedding, you display with a different version, character set mismatches will cause same symptoms to occur.

(2) Producing a PDF via distillation of PostScript, you specified "no embedding" or the font could not be found by the Distiller. The same symptoms will occur as in (1) above.

Otherwise, we are not aware of any situation (i.e., a bug associated with improper embedding or display) in either InDesign or Acrobat that would cause ligatures to not work for display in Acrobat. We are aware of some printers/RIPs that do not use Adobe-licensed PDF or PostScript that override either PDF-embedded or PostScript-embedded fonts with "printer resident" versions of same with matching names, but different character sets and metrics, that would cause these symptoms when printing.

- Dov