using transparent TIF or PSD, why are "ghost boxes" showing when printed?

[lark...@adobeforums.com]

Ill have a colored background with a TIF or PSD that was made with layers to show transparency (in this case, a person who was cut out of a photo). When this prints out, you see kind of a ghost box around the shape of the actual image. I find using clipping paths in Indesign instead of transparency prevents this but is there a way to make this work without using clipping paths and using the transparency images?

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

<http://indesignsecrets.com/eliminating-the-white-box-effect.php>
<http://indesignsecrets.com/eliminating-ydb-yucky-discolored-box-syndrome.php>

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Or don't flatten the PDF. Leaving the transparency live (Acrobat 5 or higher compatible and exported, not printed to PDF) should also correct the problem.

I can't tell from you original post if you are seeing one of the problems discussed in the articles, or "stitching" which is a display anomaly associated with flattening transparency. It appears as thin white lines around the image bounding boxes on screen, but generally does not print on high resolution devices. It can be eliminated on the screen by turning off smoothing in the preferences, but you can't control what other users' settings might be.

Peter

[Anne_...@adobeforums.com]

Hope this is the right place - we use CS3 and are working with a client who offers reports to several of their clients and sometimes offers custom logos. They send us the logo (the format and quality varies a lot) and we put it into Photoshop and create a transparent background so it can be placed, as a psd in InDesign on a cover with an image already present Apart from some resolution issues related to the original image, these have not been a problem. They are exported as pdf's on the way to who knows how many printers - from desktops, to whatever they have at Kinko's to prepress. The reports are up to 4 pages with a lot of graphics and as pdf's range from 1.8MB to 3.5MB, and print well. They have asked us to reduce the file size to under a MB. So far I see no problem on the screen, printing to our office Epson, or Kinko's Xerox but on a Canon MP730, apparently (we have not seen it since our client is in another city and we do all our work on line) there is a ghosting around the logo that sounds like stitching. Strangely it looks better lowest res opened in Reader. They use Acrobat 8 Standard on a PC, we use Mac Leopard or Tiger and print from Acrobat 9, Adobe Reader 7.1, and Mac Preview - all look fine at whatever resolution. We have made the file smaller using Docuement, PDF Optimizer, and Preview's reduce file size mode. We have flattened and not flattened transparency. Does anyone have any other ideas? Checked for spot colors. This is not the "white box" but "ghost of white box" from what I understand. Hoping for help, Jan

[Studi...@adobeforums.com]

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

Without seeing anything it's pretty hard to answer this question, but you might want to look at <http://indesignsecrets.com/eliminating-ydb-yucky-discolored-box-syndrome.php>

I might as well start the torrent of posts, too, that are going to tell you that what you are doing to those logos is, in my opinion, criminal. Logos should almost always be vector art, which is scalable and supports spot colors. Rasterizing in Photoshop is extremely destructive of linework, particularly type, and then reducing the resolution to reduce file size compounds the error. A vector logo over 1 mb would be a rare beast, indeed, in my experience, and most would be only a few hundred KB at most.

Peter

[Studi...@adobeforums.com]

Hi, Peter, thanks for your reply. Well, glad you said what you did, we agree, it is VERY uncomfortable doing anything with anyone else's artwork and we were VERY reluctant to do it. Indeed, as you say, Photoshop rasterizes the type, so we match the font and using the original as a template, recreate the fonts. Since the ultimate dimensions of the logo are small (about an inch or inch and a half), they usually look pretty decent. This is not high end presentation, just a courtesy to our client's clients in a small matter - don't want to mention the industry, but imagine a contractor who wants to include a cabinet manufacturers "co-logo" on a client presentation. The cabinet manufacture doesn't want to spend $$$ for that but is delighted with the publicity - they send along whatever jpeg or GIF or whatever they have. They then need to approve the quality of the image, it is at no cost to them and a little extra advertising. All we do is import the image to Photoshop and use the magic wand to make the "white box" transparent, do a little micro clean up and re apply the text in InDesign if needed. The total report itself can be no larger than 1 MB, it ca be several pages long and there are often some larger, intense graphics and graphs - the restructured logo is only a part of it. I did look at your link above - what perplexes us is that the image prints out very sharp on our Epson and at Kinko's - and on the Canon, the results are the opposite of what you outlined in your link - the smaller the file the less obvious the ghost. I wondered if it was a setting they are using in Acrobat Standard 8 - BTW I am not offended at all by yours or anyone else's criticism for this. I agree. The design cops can take us away in cuffs. Just let us work in Design Jail so we can feed our children. Just grateful to have work.

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

In my experience, most manufacturers have vector versions of their logos that they will supply to their clients for exactly this purpose, if someone makes the effort to ask. Often that has to be you, rather than your client, because you speak the language and they don't, and you have to find someone who also knows what they are doing on the other end.

This is far less trouble in the long run, and may eliminate the problem you are seeing.

Peter

[Studi...@adobeforums.com]

Peter, thanks - sounds like a great long term solution. Going forward, we may have to be a little more assertive in requesting to speak directly to the client's client.

Carol

[lark...@adobeforums.com]

Ok, i believe I was the one that started this post originally but I have learned a lot since. I can agree with Peter totally though, always use vector art over TIF and JPG and such, especially for logos. I also see if from your point of view because I work for a printing company and you often have to deal with the gawd awful art they send you that they took off their website that is 72dpi and want blown up to a 10 foot banner. Well to start with the boxes...

It still a nightmare with me too but its different with every printer, some do it and some dont. We have 2 color and 3 BW printers at my job and each react different to different files. for one of my BW printers, i have installed a PS and a PCL driver (Lanier sometimes have both drivers, im sure other brands might too). If one doesnt work, try the other driver.

Also if this happens and it is vector based, open the PDF in Illustrator if you are sure that you will not have any font probs by doing this. After you print it and see where the boxes are showing, you wont see them in Illustrator but if you highlight everything at once and see the bounding boxes for each object, you will probably see exactly the ones that are printing the ghost boxes. Sometimes those boxes seem to serve no purpose in the graphic so you can just delete them. Its a different situation with every file so there will be a little trial and error.

Another way, learn to use the clipping path under the Objects dropdown. Even if your graphic has transparency or just a solid color background to it, use the clipping path to cut around the graphic. This technically makes the shape into the shape of the image itself minus the areas you dont want, it takes away the traditional rectangular shape. Can also do something similar with using the Anchor Point and Direct Selection tools to resize the image frame by adding points to the bounding box and moving them around in more of the shape of the image. I know it a little confusing but hopefully you will see what I mean.

Last, like I said, Im use to getting crappy art that people want miracles done with and also dont realize you cant just take a graphic off a website and its print-ready right there. I also hate to mess with someone elses art only because I dont want to be liable in case i screw up. But often, I can look and will know I could soooo remake that logo easily with Illustrator or InDesign. Sometimes its just easier to do that than having to find the white box ghosts and other problems that arise! Also if you find yourself printing for the same person again, you will have that logo already on file and just have to drop it in place. I think it makes life a lot easier in the long run.

Also like Peter said, sometimes it is up to you to get the correct art from the client, or look around on the net for something better because the clients just dont speak the lingo or know any better. Ill use images.google.com ALL the time! Also another great site I use a lot is www.brandsoftheworld.com. They have just about every major brand name logo in vector format. Im unsure just how this site works but I think users make the art and upload it to them because sometimes I find some tiny mistakes to them but the majority of whatever I find there I need works out, or atleast is a starting point so I dont have to always start from scratch. Its totally free too!

Hope something works out!!

[Studi...@adobeforums.com]

Lark and Peter, Thanks for your comments and advice- We've started to place some of the logos into AI, and even with poor jpegs or gifs to start with, so far I understand that they print out great on the previously troublesome printer (it is hard doing this "blind" over the internet ). We started with our customized covers at our clients' request as a kind of marketing strategy - and in the beginning the point was doing it as fast and simply as possible - file size was not an issue. We were more familiar with Photoshop and getting a transparent background is quick - thanks, Peter, for helping us step outside the box and expanding our repertoire. Thanks, Lark, for the links , I found several of the client's clients logos, in many different settings on the google site- what a neat resource! And your TIP ABOUT THE BOUNDING BOXES is great - I did not understand what you meant at first but by selecting each side of the bounding box with the direct selection tool I was able to remove each side. As Peter predicted, the file size is considerably smaller and the quality better! I'll be back if more problems crop up. Thanks for your time.

Carol

[Peter...@adobeforums.com]

I learned many years ago that trying to cut corners to save time usually ends up with doing the job over again later. Consider the time you spend an investment in the future. :)

Peter