Black is Black??????? Guess again!

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

In a previous thread I found no satisfactory solution to Pantone-libraries being different between apps. But the problem gets bigger! I now end up with two plates called Black, a ps-black and an ind-black. (By the way, I also ended up with pantone 280 cv and pantone 280 cvc - which I fixed by deleting the last -c in ps - what a way around a STUPID problem!) When printing separations I end up with two different plates. Now ofcourse I know my printer can fix this by linking the colors but I am totally unhappy having to sent them a fixer-upper-file. If I'm doing something wrong I would love to know but as I interpreted before this comes with the software??? Why??

[Robert...@adobeforums.com]

>If I'm doing something wrong I would love to know...

You are obviously doing something wrong. The fact that you think its the
software's fault that you are using multiple names for spot colors is a
dead giveaway.

ID doesn't know what you want. It only knows what you tell it. You told
it to use two different spot colors so it did.

Bob

[Larry_...@adobeforums.com]

" Now ofcourse I know my printer can fix this by linking the colors but I am
totally unhappy having to sent them a fixer-upper-file".

By this do you mean they must use ink manager to map the inks? If so, that
is exactly what ink manger alias is intended for, and for what it is worth,
we get lots of files from customers that require mapping. This is no big
deal as long as they are not defined as process colors instead of spots.

If you want to eliminate this sort of thing, you need to be careful with
spot color definitions from the start, and make sure they are all exactly
the same.

Larry

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

so importing the eps will give me A color. then I'll have to tell the printer what it should resemble. I know there will not be any problems when the printjob is based on pantone, but what if i need to turn the doc into fullcolor. Which one do you pick?

[Robert...@adobeforums.com]

First you should place the Photoshop duotone EPS file. This will
automatically give you the Pantone color in your color palette. Use that
color to fill or stroke any objects you create in ID.

As for the blacks, without looking over your shoulder I have no way of
knowing what happened there.

Bob

[Richard_...@adobeforums.com]

You can alias the cvc to the cv so that it prints on one plate.

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

I found that a lot of pantones in qxp convert wrongly in ind. sometimes even without an obvious sign of warning. the names will still be the same but their cmyk values change dramatically. our printers are complaining as well. i guess this could be solved by careful monitoring but it slipped past us a few times as we weren't aware of the possibility of this happening.
This still does not solve the 2 Blacks and the different values for pantones between ps and ind.

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

Bob, when I choose pantone 116 solid coated in ps - create a monotone 100% fill 116 C, create a square in ind, fill with pantone 116 solid coated, place the 100% monotone from ps - what do I get? two different colors.
And how do I get two identical colors, both called Black?

[Marco_Antoni...@adobeforums.com]

Form what I have noticed, the our biggest complaint should not be toward Adobe or brand X, but towards Pantone, they are the ones that supply the values informations to the different vendors. Probably the naming convention is a problme of the Adobe and QXP Inc. or any other SOftware developer out there that to amke their software unique change the names for the pantone swatches. What we should do is to start requesting to have a standard naming convention among all this applications so that we stop this non-sence color discrepancy.

ABout this especific problme, I have never notice another black coming to my InDesign document form Photoshop or Illustrator, unless it is name differently or has different values thatn what the actual Black is in InDesign--I will have to run some test to see if ZI can reproduce the problem, though--Same happens when in applications that only support CMYK values but where I can assign the name to a color, InDesign, upon placemnet, tells me that the color already exist in my docuemnt with a different value and how would I like to proceed, add the new color or replace it weith the color already in used; I generally select the last so that the color I am using in inDesign still the same.

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

by the way, the 280 cvc/cv issue was an old imported freehand eps.

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

but when adobe calls a library 'solid coated', they should make sure the values are the same troughout their variety of programs. I'm not talking about differences between, for example 'solid to process' and 'uncoated', but solid coated in ps and ind. I think adobe is responsible there!

[Robert...@adobeforums.com]

> How hard is that to understand?

Thanks, I was beginning to think I was the crazy one.

Bob

[Marco_Antoni...@adobeforums.com]

I very respectfully disagree tineke, las t time a downloaded the new version for pantone swatches was from the Pantone website, because they, Pantone, have updated the infomation on the swatches. Adobe only works with the information that they received from Pantone.

But I am with you in the thought that they should be consistant in all the swatches for all applications.

[Robert...@adobeforums.com]

No, it will give you THE color you specified. This whole conversation
about different CMYK values is useless. We're discussing spot colors
here. If you want to know what they will look like or you need to show a
client, buy a Pantone swatch book.

Bob

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

first of all I DO own a pantone book - even a solid to process one. But as I stated, when I have to import into a full color doc. the spot thing becomes obsolete and the cmyk values start counting as you well know.
But besides, how do I explain two different colors on screen??

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

wasn't adobe so proud of the way their programs worked together?

[Richard_...@adobeforums.com]

I've had several people give me publisher files for election campaign material with purple pantone color instead of the 286 I specified they should use as we use 286 (blue) and 185 (red) exclusively for the American flag in all spot color political literature. Their logic? It looked blue on the monitor. Worst, they forbade me to change the ink color when prepping the file even when I showed them a swatch book! Old Glory looked hot in purple and red.

[Robert...@adobeforums.com]

No they're not. Pantone is. They're the ones that channge the formulas.
And this type of thing is one of the reasons for the Creative Suite. All
apps released at the same time using the same color libraries.

Besides, this whole point is moot anyway. We're discussing SPOT colors.
What difference does it make what the CMYK or RGB representations are?
You can't duplicate them with an inhouse printer and you'll never get a
dead on screen representation anyway. Those are custom colors mixed by
your printer.

To repeat my earlier point: Buy a Pantone book.

Bob

[Bu...@adobeforums.com]

how do I explain two different colors on screen??

Pantone had one color build when ID2 was released, then Pantone decided to change the color build so it is different for Photoshop.

[Mike_D...@adobeforums.com]

How hard is that to understand?

A better question might be, how hard is it to fix? Any one know if it's been fixed in CS?

[wa_v...@adobeforums.com]

Stiil, I wonder: if spot is converted to proces, one can have a problem due to different CMYK values (it is a UCR/GCR problem) but if ONE name a a spotcolor is present, wheter it is made in Photoshop or Indesign it does NOT matter: spot gets one plate, the printer uses the ink.
All these problems are ONLY interesting the moment TWO but the SAME named Spot colors are present, this is a problem when printing spots (you get two plates, a common mistake by beginners, Warm Red CV AND Warm Red CVU) or when converting to CMYK.

So when an EPS is imported with a spot, this spot name is shown in Indesign. Can not go wrong.
Mind you, there is a problem when placing a native PSD file that is 'transparent' as in 'No background': making a PDF directlly from Indesign keeping it Acrobat 4/PDF 1.3 compatible causes differnt colors in the PSD frame and the surrounding background. PDF 1.4/Acrobat 5 does not have this problem but still us difficult to process. BUT... printing to file (.PS postscript file) and then distliing this PS file with Acrobat distiller using PDF 1.3/Acrobat 4 compatible works 100%.
This problem is promised to be solved in InDesign 3/CS

[Just_A_...@adobeforums.com]

Spot colour swatches should be used only to represent spot inks... not to choose CMYK.... Pantones ever changing definitions are a "close enough guess" at best...

Calibration of Colour management {or lack thereof}, imagesetters. platemakers, film processors, and presses can all make changes of a few percentage points to the line screen of the printed material...

Spot colours are ripped as single colour black and clear Film/Plates and colour becomes a physical property of the chosen ink...

The operator/Artist is solely reponsible for colours chosen and separations made... it is you job... Software makers offer choices and tools, you are the one using them... any way you want....

The computers are inanimate machines that don't give a rat's ass about you or your deadlines... they just mindlessly follow your instructions...

That being said they also can feel how tight your deadline is and instinctively crash 15 minutes before you are done...

I sympathize with the original post but there are so many different ways to represent Black as a printed colour that I have stopped counting...

MS Puslisher or Office being the absolute worst...

Black is Black? Nope never was, never will be....

[Marilyn_...@adobeforums.com]

First Tineke, what versions of Photoshop and InDesign are you using? If Photoshop 7.0x and InDesign 2.0x, the next question is are your color management settings the same in both? color management definitely should be on. If you have color management on with the same settings, have you calibrated your monitor with a hardware calibrator? If the answers are all yes, then you can worry about color differences onscreen. If not, you need to upgrade and set up color management correctly.

I do believe one reason for CS is to be sure all color management systems are the same across all your Adobe applications. It wasn't always the case in the past, since apps came out at different times, which may contribute to your problems.

Have you made up a special black in InDesign, so that it looks blacker onscreen? If so, that may have created your two blacks problem, if you haven't used it everywhere. It is unnecessary to create another black, since again, InDesign's black is a little greyed out only onscreen, so that the darker, rich blacks (with some cyan and/or magenta added) that you can also build if you are using 4-color process will look darker onscreen .

[Emily_...@adobeforums.com]

Mac_Guy,

Some printers who work with inkjet output request the use of Pantone Spot colors for color accuracy. It has become a widely accepted stndard for colors beyond the traditional spot color inks on a printing press.

[Just_A_...@adobeforums.com]

Emily,

I understand where you are coming from, but the fact that it is widely accepted to choose Pantone colours and then convert to CMYK... does not make the practice accurate in any way...

There are a tremendous amount of factors that contribute to colour shift. the vast majority of spot inks are outside of CMYK's ability to represent. accuratly... That is a big part of why they exist in the 1st place...

Choosing PMS in place of CMYK is accepted and will get you close to where youi want to be, but it is not inherently accurate...

[Richard_...@adobeforums.com]

Emily: all you need to do is look at a solid to process swatchbook to see the fallacy of that line of thinking.

[Tra...@adobeforums.com]

The whole "C," "CV," "CVC" suffix/separations nightmare has caused untold millions of wasted hours in prepress departments worldwide. What a horrible idea this was. There really isn't that much difference in viewing "computer video" color and "computer video coated" color anyway; even if there was it would not have justified this idiocy. If you want to know what the spot color looks like buy a swatch book fer crissakes. Thank God for ink aliasing in ID.

[Richard_...@adobeforums.com]

Sometimes I think if another idiot tells me they want 185 coated NOT185 uncoated I'll have to slap them silly. But customers don't know, that's what they have us for.

I have a strict rule in my shop that only the pantone solid coated swatches are to be used in any application. Just makes life simpler. And aliasing inks in ID is great.

[Just_A_...@adobeforums.com]

Richard...

"I have a strict rule in my shop that only the pantone solid coated swatches are to be used in any application"

I do that too... It is funny how many people finicky about colour don'tor can't tell the difference...

[Mike_D...@adobeforums.com]

Sometimes I think if another idiot tells me they want 185 coated NOT185
uncoated I'll have to slap them silly. But customers don't know, that's
what they have us for.

Sure, if sitting around fixing files at $75.00 an hour is your idea of being productive. It's not mine. Pushing $400.00+ worth of film through our imagesetter and creating another $200.00-400.00 worth of proofs in an hour is. It's basic math. I'd much rather educate the customer so I receive good files. Everyone seems to think job security comes from knowing more then the next guy, you're wrong. It comes from bringing enough revenue through the door to exceed the company expenses. Now if you can do that AND know more then the next guy you're in great shape.

I have a strict rule in my shop that only the pantone solid coated swatches

are to be used in any application.

What about in PS7? The Pantone Coated library is based on LAB color info that doesn't match the color info of the same named libraries in AI and ID. It'll work if you stick strictly to spot output, but if you ever need process sep's you gotta go back and change the files. And you're likely to have color mismatching going to a composite proofer like an ink jet printer. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So back to the original point of the post. Since everyone seems to agree that this naming issue isn't the best setup, why, in all this time (nearly 3 years) hasn't it ever been corrected? I asked it before and got no response, so I'll ask it again. Does anyone know if this is fixed in CS? If not, why isn't everyone getting on Pantones butt like they do Adobes?

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

Marilyn: about the 2 blacks issue - ind has its own standard black and the other comes from a PS duotone. They're both called exactly the same, be it that the ind one is between brackets. They print seperately.

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

Marilyn, ofcourse all cm is set to the same, screen has been calibrated and I use all the latest versions, so there's no problem there. To some of you other guys: don't treat me like I'm some sort of inexperienced idiot. It is obvious that I'm not the only one having problems with this and stopconsidering YOUR way of working the only way. After years of university training and years and years of working experience I still find it unexplainable why solid coated is not the same between apps. I DoO understand what some of you are saying about pantone being rather fickle but in my opinion that doesn't excuse the fact. In Holland things are rapidly moving towards digital printing so the cmyk values Do matter. And when I have a pantono logo in PS which the client at the end of the job decides will have to be placed when the file is already created in IND - using pantone converted to cmyk then there is a big problem.
Richard, can you explain what you mean by aliassing colors?

[wa_v...@adobeforums.com]

Tineke,
you are Dutch, or Flemisch Belgium?
Where do you work at?

Just curious... ;-)

[wa_v...@adobeforums.com]

Tineke,

if you get two blacks, one from an photoshop EPS, one of these things happend:
OR:
Although they both seems to be called Black, something may differ in the name: ex: Black (with capital) or black (no capital); or a space before or after the name etc.;
OR:
The black in Photoshop is NOT a CMYK proces color but a spot named 'black';
OR:
The black from the Photoshop EPS is NOT defined as 100% K and nothing else

Please check this, and let us know!

[Richard_...@adobeforums.com]

When I said that's what clients have us for that includes educating them how to prepare files. I have a printout I give all clients about preparing files for spot and process printing. I also charge a $50 minimum to convert and/or prep all PC files in apps other than Quark or ID. Normally I fold it into the print price so people don't complain about the charge.

I very rarely use pantone colors out of PS. So it's just a matter of AI and ID having the same pantone name. I always match the ID color to whatever AI is. If AI is cvc, then the color is cvc in ID. Or I simply alias the color.

[Marco_Antoni...@adobeforums.com]

Black is Black in Photoshop or InDesign, if it is name exactley the same way in both applications. It does n ot matter that the one in InDesign is in brackets, if the color is Black, InDesign will recognize it as Black. About spot colors, when we import them to InDesign we will get a window that tells us that we alreeady have the color we are bringing form photoshop or Illustrator, it will also tell us if it has different values, then asks us if we want to replace the color with the one we are importing or retain the color InDesign has, so if we replace the color with the new values, we SHOULD not have any problems with output colors.

tineke, ALIASING in InDesign is the feature that if you get the same color with different names such as: Pantone 647 C, and Pantone 647 CUC, or PMS 647, you can from the Color Palette pull down Menu select Ink Manager and Alias the colors into one. It is really handy when you cna not delete for any reason the colors from InDesign.

About if this is fixed in InDesign only a beta tester should be able to tell us, but I am not sure how willing they are in sharing their experinece with the applications becasue I created a topic asking the beta testers to share their experience with ID CS and did not have too much response. SOme say because of NDA, which it did not made any sence to me since I did not want to know about the features that did not made the final version, but to know if the features they announced really work and if some of the bug--we were complaining about were fixed, such as deleting unwanted colors (Spots).

[Don_P...@adobeforums.com]

Marco,

One reason so few beta testers are making comments might be that not only are not all -- and maybe very few -- of them using the final beta version that will become the Golden Master, but many may not even be using the most-recent beta. There are many beta builds during the beta-test phase, and while beta testers should always download the latest versions, not all do.

In which case, they may hesitate to talk about features in the final release. Even though the features may be announced by Adobe, they may or may not be implemented the same way in the final version as in one of the betas.

Also, when you discuss things like bugs in earlier releases, that's particularly touchy, because some bugs show up in early betas, disappear as the betas progress, and then, inexplicably, show up in a later beta or even the final version, when some last minute bug fix or feature tweak restores the bug. I've seen that happen more than once.

I've been a beta tester in the past on a number of Adobe programs, but I wouldn't have dreamed of commenting on what the final version will or won't do, NDA or not, before the final version is on the streets -- too many things may change in that final version from whatever beta I was working on, and I really dislike eating my words.

Don

[Larry_...@adobeforums.com]

> Black is Black in Photoshop or InDesign, if it is name exactley the same
way in both applications. It does n ot matter that the one in InDesign is in
brackets, if the color is Black, InDesign will recognize it as Black.

Not entirely true... It depends on how the black is defined. If the second
black is defined as a process color, (0-0-0-100) then it will be separated
on the K plate. If however, it is defined as a spot color, it will separate
on it's own plate. Of course this too can be fixed with ink manager, by
simply clicking the icon, and changing it to process instead of spot.

Larry

[Marco_Antoni...@adobeforums.com]

true, I was just commenting to the thought that Phtoshop was bringing a Black color different that InDesign, ut the truth is that if it is the exact same name as you ahve in InDesign there is no extra plate.

[Larry_...@adobeforums.com]

I figured you knew what you were talking about... just wanted to make it
clear for some here that might get confused on this color definition thingy.

Sometimes it's just not black and white (pun intended)

Larry

[Marilyn_...@adobeforums.com]

Tineke,

I suggest you read the pdf entitled, New Feature Highlights, found here: <http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/newfeatures.html>

Page six answers your question about color management in CS. Yes, all the apps share the same Adobe Color engine (ACE). This is one of the major benefits of the Creative Suite. Though I haven't yet seen it, I take that to mean that color definitions have also been standardized across the suite. We;'l all know for sure very soon.

By the way, when you title a post provocatively (in a negative way), you can expect to receive answers in the same vein. Ask simply, and the folks here will do everything possible to help. Ask angrily or sarcastically why nothing works, and those of us who have no problems getting the results we want may respond in a similar tone.

I've been producing a 40 page quarterly magazine full of duotones (Pantone 287 and black) saved from Photoshop 7 as .eps with absolutely no problem for over two years. Your problem must stem from something you are doing differently.

[wa_v...@adobeforums.com]

Laten we het op een rijtje zetten beste Tineke:

Wanneer je bv een document aanmaakt in een Engelstalige versie van Photoshop en plaatst in een nederlandstalige versie van indesign, dan heb je [Zwart] en krijgt er 'Black' bij; ook: wanneer je in een nederlandse versie van Indesign een documnet maakt en dat document zou openen in een Engelstalige versie van Indesign, dan heb je in de engelstalige InDesign [Black] en krijg je er een 'Zwart' bij.
dit is ok; als al deze varianten gewoon zijn gedefineerd al proces zwart, 0C 0M 0Y 100K,
dan maakt het voor de kleurscheiding niet uit,
MAAR: wanneer je 'Zwart overdrukken' hebt aanstaan in je voorkeuren (standaard) dan wordt enkel de kleur zwart overdrukt die tussen de haken [ ] staat! Een andere naam voor een zwart, ook al is het 0C 0M 0Y 100K wordt overvult iov overdrukt!
Dit is tevens de enige manier waarop je op 1 pagina zowel zwart overdrukkende als zwart uitsparend/overvullend kan creeren.

Let dus daarbij goed op.
Wil je alle 'variaties' aan namen van zwart vervangen door een zwart tussen de haken [ ], wis dan simpelweg alle variaties en kies als vervangende kleur de zwart tussen haakjes. LEt OP: dat betekent dus wel dat ALLE zwart wordt overdrukt.

Dan, als je een EPS in Photoshop maakt van een doutoon, zorg dan dat de plaatNAAM voor het gebruikte zwart DEZELFDE is als die in InDesign (dus Zwart in nederlands, 'Black' in engels etc. Let ook op Kapitalen!! Een 'Zwart' is anders dan 'zwart'. nogmaals: als ze 100K proces zijn gaat alles goed met scheiden, maar verschillend voor overdrukken.

Gebruik GEEN zwart in de modellen PMS , OOK niet een Zwart PMS proces. Kies simpelweg Proces, 0C 0M 0Y 100K
(Wanneer je een PMS zwart gebruikt en dit omzet naar proces in InDesign, kun je inderdaad problemen krijgen omdat bij de PMS zwart een andere GCR/UCR wordt gebruikt.)

Over aliassen: open de printdialoog, kies voor kleirscheidingen, ga naar de kleuren en open 'inkmanager', kies daar een van de in je document voorkomende kleuren en maak een 'alias' naar een andere in je document voorkomende kleur: bv: je maakt van PMS 213 een alias naar 'Cyaan': ipv een plaat waarop PMS 123 apart komt te staan komt nu alles in de PMS 123 op de plaat cyaan! Zo kun je evt. dus ook een alias van 'andere zwarten' naar [Zwart] maken.

Wanneer je in nederland werkt, kijk dan eens voor InDesign of QXPress naar InDesign trainingen verzorgd door bv. Opatel (Opatel.nl) of KAO/Kreft advies (Kreft.nl) beide hebben goede omscholingen/bijscholingen en open traingen.

Succes!

For those wondering: it is in Dutch!
Trying to explain that if a differemt name for black is used, one gets two black names, both can be 0C 0M 0Y 110K. Both get seperated on the same proces plate black BUT(!): only the balck between brackets [ ] overprints (if set in prefrences) the other black gets trapped/knocked out!!

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

Dear va (and Larry)
Both blacks are called exactly the same, including caps, lower case spacing etc. Both are 100%K and they still separate. About aliasing, I do undestand the feature in Dutch - have used it in the past - just didn't understand the translation. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of what everyone is saying when your working in a different country with different app-languages. Y'all want to give it a try in Dutch??? So try to be a bit patience sometimes.
To Marilyn and all the other who were trying to be helpful: I sincerely thank you for that. The problem of cmyk values differing hasn't been solved and probably never will be - I guess that's something I'll have to work my way around.
And there's still the 2K thing...
Va - I'm from Holland - you obviously guessed. As for training and courses - I'll not be arrogant and say I don't need them - everyone does. Had my fair share of training - especially in ind. as I had to implement the program at the business I work at and educate the rest of my team. I have done well, if I may say so myself. Thanks to all and if there are anymore suggestions I'd be happy to hear.

[Marilyn_...@adobeforums.com]

Dear Tineke, I do hope (and expect) that your problems will be solved by CS integration. I really don't understand the two blacks problem. Seems it must be something about naming. I've just never had any problems with Photoshop duotones in InDesign.

I love to interact with people from around the world on these forums. It's true that language can be a problem, though. Keep trying with us. It's great to have you join in.

I've traveled to the Netherlands several times, and love it. A good friend of mine was born in Utrecht, so we visited on Queen's Day when she (the Queen) was in Utrecht a few years ago. I visited another friend in Den Haag, another in Groningen (where she was so proud that the art museum had an exhibit about America - we all had a good laugh because it was about the Memphis design group from Italy). I've seen the finish line, though not participated in, the 4-day walking multiple marathon in and about Niemegen, since my frien's 50yr old sister was doing it (you should have seen her feet). And of course Amsterdam. I love your country and your people!

[Emily_...@adobeforums.com]

Richard, Mac Guy-

I mentioned before pantone spot colors are "a widely accepted standard for colors beyond the traditional spot color inks on a printing press"

At the exhibit design firm I work at, we use pantone spot colors for many things, ink-jet output, as well as for matching vinyls, paint, fabric, plastics, and laminate. I was just trying to point out that the Pantone libraries are widely accepted as a standerd by many people beyond the computer graphics industry. Pantone books simply serve the purpose of being able to speak to somebody on the phone about color, and know we are both looking at the same thing. Many companies produce products, colored plastics, vinyls, etc... that are matched to Pantone spot colors, so us designers can make sure things match, and keep us all happy!

[Just_A_...@adobeforums.com]

Emily...

I agree that for most people, that is close enough

and over the phone, as long as you are both looking at the same book, printed in the same year, that has been exposed to similar amounts of light so that they have faded in a similar way...

Sorry if this sounds like nitpicking, not my intent, but most of this discussion comes from the differences in spot colour breakdowns from different software...

Pantone is a wonderful reference point, but unless you are using MS inks, colour matching is not perfectly reliable...

Not to mention the way the same spot ink changes when printed on different paper stocks...

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

But what other woldwide accepted color-reference is there...
I'll have to agree with Emily
Marilyn: thank you. If you'd like to mail sometime, let me know.

[wa_v...@adobeforums.com]

Tineke,

just to be sure: you are certain that both black defintions are both:
Proces
CMYK
C0 M0 Y0 K 100%?

When you select the blacks one by one in Swatches (Stalen) en choose 'Swatch options' (Staalopties...) does in read by both:
'Color Type: Process' (Kleurtype: Proces);
'Color Mode: CMYK' (Kleurmodus: CMYK);
C0%, M0%,Y)5 K100%?

And in the ink manager is the option all spot to proces (Steun naar proces) NOT checked?

[Just_A_...@adobeforums.com]

"But what other woldwide accepted color-reference is there..."

Depends on what you feel is being referenced... Pantone is a standard for recipes for colours of specific spot inks... They offer a best guess at what they feel is the closest possible match in process CMYK. Pantone is operating in good faith and when they feel demand is such they change their definitions of what they believe is close enough... But most PMS inks are outside of CMYKs colour gamut.... which means that cmyk cannot recreate that colour exactly... so here is a break down that Pantone feels is close enough... If you don't agree, feel free to change it...

All would be fine if they left the definitions alone, but they don't... Different software use different descriptions and the user is left to figure it out...

I don't like it either, but thats the way it is... I use the Pantone Solid to process guide as a start, but it is not standard anything...

[John_K...@adobeforums.com]

Tineke

If you are still having a problem with black, maybe following these steps will shed some light.

Create a simple duotone with spot 185 (any pms color will do) and process black. (from the picker, 0c,0m,0y,100K) Save file with name process black.

Modify file and swith the process black to pms spot black. (notice the new name for the black ink) Save file with name pms black.

Modify file again and rename the pms spot color name to Black (same name as the black in InDesign) Save file with name spot black.

Modify file for last time and change the spot black to reflex blue. Rename the reflex blue color as Black. (again, same name as the black in InDesign) Save file with name reflex black blue.

Place the process black file into a blank InDesign document. Did a second black swatch show up? It should not.

Place the spot black file into the same document. Did a new black swatch show? It still should not.

Place the pms black file into the same document. Did a black swatch show this time? Yes, you should have a swatch appear.

Place the reflex black blue file into the same document. Did you get a relflex blue swatch? With overprint preview off, do you see blue in this image? With overprint preview on, do you see blue still? Print out separations, does is separate to the black plate? What happens, when you convert the pms 185 to process in InDesign and output separations? Anything interesting happens?

This post is meant to reinforce the importance of the names of the spot colors and not just the makeup of the cmyk preview. It is up to the individual user to verify the their pantone libraries are up to date and consistent through their applications and to take the necessary steps (even if it means manual labor) to ensure the names and cmyk previews are consistant. I am not handing the information to you (hence the portion of the post above) because, it has already been stated before in one form or another earlier in this thread.

John

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

Beste Wa
de kleuren zwart zijn uiteindelijk anders, nl. de ind Zwart is process (daar kan ik aleen achterkomen door een kopie van de kleur te maken en die via staalopties te bekijken), de geimporteerde ps Zwart is steun. De ps is een geimporteerde duo-eps. De kleurstalen zijn wel beide C0 M0 Y0 K100.
En toch blijft het een raadsel daar in vorige versies van ps de duo Zwart gewoon de programmakleur bleef - er geen tweede zwart meekwam. Wij werken dagelijks met duo's en dit ben ik niet eerder tegengekomen - alhoewel: met 'kleuren' wel.

[wa_v...@adobeforums.com]

jawel!
Zie je: op het laatst dacht ik 'misschien staat er een van de twee 'zwarten' op steun'...
OK, daar zijn we dan gelukkig uit.
Soms is er wel een probleem wanneer bv. documenten opgemaakt worden in een engelstalige versie van InDesign en worden geopend in een nederlandse: wat [Black] heet in de engelse versie wordt geimporteerd als Black en bestaat dan naast [Zwart]
Wis in zo'n geval Black en vervang door [Zwart].
Dit is ook belangrijk omdat enkel de zwart kleur tussen de teksthaken [ ] wordt overdrukt, elke andere zwart definitie (ook al is dat 100% K) wordt overvuld!

Translation in short: Tineke writes: 'one of of the blacks indeed was defined as 'Spot' while the other was 'proces' '

So indeed, the problem is now solved (exept for HOW this came to be ;-) )

[tineke_...@adobeforums.com]

Maar ze heten allebei al Zwart...