Stupid master pages question
Jeffrey Smith
Dr. Smoke
In InDesign, select Window > Pages.
This brings up the Pages palette.
I keep my Pages palette set to vertical display. This give me something like the following display in my Pages palette:
Master-1
Master-2
Master-3
================
Page1 Page2 Page3
Page4 etc.
Double-clicking a master in the top half of the Pages palette brings up the selected master in the editing window.
Double-clicking a page in the bottom half of the Pages palette brings up the selected page in the editing window.
Does this answer your question?
Amanda Smith
I assumed that it was some sort of a "bring forward" issue but that's not it. I click and click and click and nothing. I go back to the master pages and, yes, they are still there.
I went to sleep in tears last night. I loaned my InDesign manual to a friend because I didn't think I'd need it. I can't go back to Quark.
Oh, please help. Please?
Amanda
Jeffrey Smith
Dr. Smoke
Dr. Smoke
I spent several days with the ID manual before working on my first project, though I bought ID based on the marketing literature and a perusal of some related books in a local bookstore. I did not use the demo.
Maybe I'm a bit "old school" but I've found demos can sometimes be more of a headache to uninstall, but they're a good second step in a purchasing decision after getting a feel about the product. Reviewing the manual or a book about a product is a good way for me to get the feel to determine if I want to try a demo, especially for a complex product like ID.
To each their own ;-)
Amanda Smith
I'm glad I got a manual, too. Mine has stickies and stuff on it, and notes in it. This will be added, too, once I understand what I'm doing wrong.
Dr. Smoke, thank you, but I meant on a standard layout page. I can make a master page and select it without problems. What I can't do is select items that the master has applied to my "regular" pages.
For example, I made boxes for text on the master pages, so the boxes would be in the same place on every page. But, I can't select the box to put text in, reshape, or do any of the other things I want to do to those text (or picture, etc.) boxes.
Sorry I didn't explain well.
Sandee Cohen
Dr. Smoke, you have not understood the question.
Jeffrey Smith, I don't think you understand the program.
Amanda,
Your question has nothing to do with the Pages palette. Ignore all suggestions about it.
What you are experiencing is that InDesign puts a form of electronic "protection" on the elements of a master page.
This ensures that the elements don't get moved inadvertently.
All you have to do is Cmd/Ctrl-Shift-click on an element to release it from the protection. Then you can do anything that you want with it. Bring forward. Add an image. Etc.
You really should get that manual back from your friend. But the Help pages do have everything in the manual.
Or better still buy a good third party book (like mine?) that will explain many of these things in a much more visual, human manner.
And now, if the fellas want to keep up their argument, go right ahead.
Amanda Smith
And, we'll stop to get a Quick Start Guide at lunch today. It's super cool that you're hanging out, answering questions. Thanks!
Sandee Cohen
It's super cool that people like you come here to ask questions.
Quite frankly, if I didn't read the kind of questions you people have, I wouldn't know what special tips, sidebars, and explanations to put in my book.
Thanks!
Sandee
Lukas Machata
> I'm glad I got a manual, too. Mine has stickies and stuff on it, and notes in
> it. This will be added, too, once I understand what I'm doing wrong.
If you select InDesign Help from the Help menu or simply press the Help key
on an extended keyboard, the *complete* manual will open in your default
browser (works best in Mozilla and Explorer, on OS X also in Safari).
--
Lukas Machata | www.machata.ch
stewart tower
For images, you don't have to create a picture box first. Just place or drag your image file into ID and it will appear, already in a box. This is a one-step approach as compared to Quark's two-step approach.
Text boxes on a master page are pretty much just for auto flowing text throughout a document (IMHO). If you want to create text boxes separately on a page(s), just click or drag with the text tool. The text box gets created with the cursor already flashing and ready for text. You use the guides you created on the master page to arrange your new text box(es).
Did I interpret your question correctly?
Dave Saunders
Dave
Dave Saunders
Dave
christi faris
christi faris
christi faris
christi faris
christi faris
guess it does help to start from scratch ; )
when puter don't do what i want them to i get a bit agitated
again i am soory for my attitude -- christi ; )
Dave Saunders
Lose the attitude and tell us more about the problem.
Which layer do you have the page number on?
Which layer do you have the image on?
Which is nearest the top in the Layers palette.
Dave
christi faris
Jeffrey Smith
Amanda Smith
Kisses to Pixel and thanks again for your help this morning.
Amanda
Jeffrey Smith
Unknown
Ken
christi faris
Sandee Cohen
Sandee Cohen
Is it me, or am I the only one who thinks that women [in general] are
too sensitive and easily agitated?
No, it's not only you. There's a whole world of misogynistic men just like you.
Fortunately most of them do not hang around on this forum.
Of course I could be wrong. You also fall into the category of misanthrope, curmugeon, agitator, provocateur, and malcontent.
But you do so without any legitimatacy to your comments.
Jeffrey Smith
Sandee Cohen
Not directed at you Jeffrey, but not nice to read, none-the-less.
Sandee Cohen
the light-hearted poke at gender difference they were intended.
That is always the excuse of the misogynist. Same thing the racist, homophobe, and other bigots do.
Why would you, in the middle of a thread on working with master pages come out with that nasty comment. Was it directed at me?
Why? Whatever did I do except point out, (once again), that you don't know beans about InDesign. In fact, I am beginning to doubt you even know anything about page layout in any computer application.
But when your ignorance is shown up, you retaliate with a nasty comment about women in general.
If you had simply stated that I am "too sensitive and easily agitated" then I would have chalked it up to you being your usual nasty self.
But when you say that this is women in general, you show yourself to be a bigot.
But once again, you have managed to deflect attention off the fact that you contributed nothing of any substantive help in this thread.
You don't know InDesign well enough to answer any specific question.
But when confronted with your own ignorance, you make nasty jokes. Bigot!
Dave Saunders
You do seem to be ignoring Jeffrey's sensitive side.
Dave <<g>
Jeffrey Smith
Jimmy P
Unknown
Ken
Richard Sohanchyk
Sandee: Calm down. Not worth getting an ulcer over.
Mike Doyle
Thank you.
Sandee Cohen
Dr. Smoke, yours was a very civil, complete and correct answer. It's help
such as this that users look for, not smart-ass upbraiding.
Ahhh, would that every answer on this board were as correct as Dr. Smoke's.
peterpica
Dave Saunders
A quick read of the two center columns of pages 74 and 75 of the User Guide (on overriding and detaching master items) will give you the basics.
Dave
Julian Berdych
Let's say we're making a 9-page booklet, with three sections, each containing three pages. But we want to colour-code the different sections, right? So our master page would be a white background (with a page number in the bottom corner), but the section pages would override the white master page by making it, say, red, green, or blue.
The problem, as I understand it, is that by cmd-shift-clicking the page background to override its colour, this brings the page background FORWARD, obliterating the page number on the master page. Not a pleasant situation. This is because InDesign puts master layers behind page layers, like so:
Layer-1 (page) - contains overridden page background & page text
Layer-1 (master) - contains page number and original page background
But if we create a new layer beneath the default layer (I like to call it "basement", because that's where I put the things that I want left in the background), and move the overridden page background to it, the layer structure looks like this:
Layer-1 (page) - contains page text
Layer-1 (master) - contains page number
Basement(page) - contains overridden background
Basement (master) - contains nothing
And now we have the ordering we want -- our page text is on the desired background colour, but the page number is in front of the background.
This is what the InDesign manual means when it says that page and master layers alternate. Unfortunately, the manual does not offer an adequate explanation of what this really means. Hopefully, Adobe will address this in a future version of the manual (or perhaps Sandee will explain this in a future book).
Now as for the nasty comments exchanged earlier in this thread, I'd like to counter them with an invitation for anyone who happens to be in the Montreal area to come and visit my home studio and meet my lovely Persian cats (Griffin and Sabine), inspect my recent InDesign work, and be treated to a home-cooked dinner.
So no more spitting, OK, people?
...Julian (Montreal, Canada)
514.697.5995 or Julian....@sympatico.ca for reservations.
Sandee Cohen
No, InDesign does not put master page layers behind page layers. The z-order of master page layers is the same as the z-order of page layers.
The only thing that could confuse people is that when a master page item is released from its protection, it automatically comes to the top of the z-order of the document page.
This is why page numbers can be obscured when picture frames are released.
The very simple fix (which Dave Saunders explained) is to put the page numbers on their own layer, ABOVE, the picture frames on the master page.
Then when the picture frames are released, the page numbers are still above
However, there are a few things that should be mentioned regarding this.
#1: XP doesn't allow layers on master pages.
#2: Using ID's "based on" master pages, it is possible to have two different page numbers. One page number master page would show the page numbers in black over the released frames. The other, based on the first, would show the page numbers in white. That would make it easier to read page numbers over images.
Diane King
#2: Using ID's "based on" master pages, it is possible to have two different
page numbers. One page number master page would show the page numbers
in black over the released frames. The other, based on the first, would
show the page numbers in white. That would make it easier to read page
numbers over images.
This is the exact reason that I switched to ID from Pagemaker when it first came out (version 1.0). I was doing magazine layout and I needed to be able to create full graphic spreads that did not obscure the footer on the Master spread. I was so enthused about the layering that I was willing to put up with the bugs and printing problems with version 1. While everyone else was claiming that it was worthless--I was in full production with it and loving it. It's only gotten better since.
I love InDesign!
Marco Antonio SantaMaria
Anothr reason your page number might not be showing is that is being puch by a frame wrap on your layout, just make sure yhour frame is ignoring the wrap of the frames. Go to OPbejtct menu/TEXT Frame Options, when you have selected your page number frame and check the "Ignore Text Wrap"
hope it is not too lae for this tip.
Sandee Cohen
What's really cool about the protection applied to master page elements on document pages is that text wrap does not affect the elements.
So unless you release a page number applied from a master page, any text wrap applied on the document page won't cause the page number to disappear.
The more I work with this program, the better I like it.
Marco Antonio SantaMaria
Julian Berdych
It's difficult to explain the "alternating layers" concept in words, but here's what I did some time ago to get REALLY clear on how ID's layers work:
a) create a simple one-page new document, with no facing pages.
b) go to the A-master page and create a second layer (one already exists by default), and rename the two layers "Upstairs" and "Downstairs".
c) create three partially overlapping text frames on the Upstairs layer, with text like "Upstairs 1", "Upstairs 2", etc. Give the frames a stroke and fill so you can see their stacking order.
d) do exactly the same thing on the "Downstairs" layer, but perhaps with a different fill colour.
e) Now go the the document page (which should be based on A-master). Cmd-shift-click the middle "Upstairs 2" frame to override it. It moves to the top of the stacking order, and there's no way to push it underneath its upstairs neighbours (which are still back on the master page). All page objects (both overriden or created) will always appear in front of all master objects on the same layer. Note also that you cannot push the upstairs frame behind anything on the downstairs layer.
f) Do the same for the "Downstairs 2" frame. You'll find you can't push it behind its downstairs neighbours, and also that you cannot bring it above any frames on the Upstairs layer.
In both cases above, you'll notice that the Object>Arrange options are grayed out. That's because we've only overriden one object on each layer, and there are no other objects on the "page" layers (the remaining objects are on the "master" layers). So although ID shows only two layers in the Layers pallette, there are in fact four layers in the following order (top to bottom):
Upstairs/page
Upstairs/master
Downstairs/page
Downstairs/master
Perhaps in ID 3.0, we'll have an expandable layers palette which will make this more obvious.
In the meantime, I've learned that it ALWAYS helps to have a second layer in every document (I usually call it "Basement", and put it on the bottom) to deal with those pesky overridden objects that insist on coming up to the front and obscuring other master page objects. Just send 'em back to the basement!
...Julian (Montreal, Canada)
Diane King
Anything I want on the very bottom of the stack (master or page) is on the background layer. Anything I want hanging above the background (or anything with transparency that is not a background item) I put on the middle layer. I keep text only on the top layer to avoid the rasterizing of text near transparent objects. I've been working with ID since version 1 and have rarely had to add a fourth layer to my workflow. My masterpage items are almost exclusively on the middle layer allowing me to work around them easily on the pages (with the exception of background colors or screens which are always on the background layer regardless of the page).
Jeff Pazen
I am a newbie, and assumed that ID would be similar to that other program, and set off trying to use it without reading (I am familiar with Pagemaker)
It's from Adobe, should be pretty intuitive, right??
Anyway, I always go to forums before I pick up a dreaded manual - but I have one thing to mention - I assumed that this would be a protection issue, that things were locked down... but I want to ask: is there a way to unlock every item throughout the document?
I am using ID to create simple wirteframes - there are twenty+ pages, and each item will be modified on each page.
I know I will get used to Cmd-Shift-clicking, but wish I didn't have to.
I wish that there was a preference for master pages to turn this feature off.
Julian Berdych
But if every item on every page is different, then there's not much point to having items on master pages. It just adds extra complexity without any benefits.
It might be easier to place only guides or non-printing guide objects on the master pages, which would ease the placement of all the different items. And there would be nothing to override.
...Julian. (Montreal, Canada)
Jeff Pazen
Don Picard
is there a way to unlock every item throughout the document?
There is through an AppleScript:
tell application "InDesign 2.0.2"
master page items of every page of active document
end tell
This is just a quick-and-dirty script, with no error checking or method of selecting pages, but I use it to "release" all master page items in a document in one project I do.
It's the equivalent of shift-command-clicking on every master page item on every page of the document.
Don
gerard hein
only Cmd Shift click on each element.
rob day
I've used a similar script--the only problem is it won't unlock items when the master based on another master.
The locked down masterpage items is surely InDesign's worst "feature". The user should be able to decide when a master page item is locked (a folio or a background color) and when it's not (an empty text or picture box waiting for content). The changing of z-orders and text wraps when an item is released is absurd.
Rob
Shane Stanley
> I've used a similar script--the only problem is it won't unlock items when the
> master based on another master.
Try it like:
tell application "InDesign 2.0.2"
master page items of every page of every master spread of active document
master page items of every page of active document
end tell
--
Shane Stanley, ssta...@myriad-com.com.au
gerard hein
rob day
Thanks! A while back I went round and round with this over in the scripting forum--as usual your solution is simple and elegant.
Rob
Scott McCullough
In any ID document, regardless of its complexity, I create a Guides layer on the very top of the stacking order (I guess Julian would call this the Attic). I've become spoiled by ID's object-level guides, and it's nice to be able to assign them to a layer, a la FreeHand.
I put my folios on a separate layer just below the guides--this ensures that no page elements block the master-page folios, as can happen in both QXP and PM. If I DO want a page element to knock out the folios, I create a separate layer above the folios but below the guides.
So in a complex document, I usually stack my layers something like this:
* Guides
* Items above folios
* Folios
* Isolate from transparency
* Transparencies above page elements
* Page elements
* Transparencies below page elements
* Backgrounds
* Items below backgrounds
I sometimes add even more layers, as needed. It sounds cumbersome, but it greatly simplifies production for me, especially if transparencies are involoved. Now that I'm accustomed to working with ID's advanced layers and master pages, I have a tough time going back to the shortcomings of QXD or PageMaker.
Scott
Richard Sohanchyk
rob day
Don Picard
Thanks for chipping in with the usual simple-but-brilliant stuff. (Though I have dozens of scripts on the system, only about half a dozen are yours ... but they are about 75% of the ones I actually use.)
Don
Sandee Cohen
The locked down masterpage items is surely InDesign's worst "feature".
The user should be able to decide when a master page item is locked (a
folio or a background color) and when it's not (an empty text or picture
box waiting for content). The changing of z-orders and text wraps when
an item is released is absurd.
Rob,
I love the locked down feature for master page items.
I think it is one of the great innovations of InDesign.
It totally beats anything I ever saw in PageMaker or Quark.
And solves a lot of problems I have.
And the fact that master page items don't respond to text wrap is saving my butt on a job I'm doing right now.
I do think there should be a preference for where master page items appear in the z-order of a page. But right now front does make sense for most people.
Laura Hickle
And using master pages dynamically based on other masters ... I love it. It's brilliant. I rarely did much with QXP masters, because they were just a hassle; but I work with them much more extensively now in ID.
I had run into the problem of having full bleed items covering up the folios, and with text reacting to transparencies ... I'm glad to see so much helpful info from everyone about layers. I hadn't tried using layers yet (and yes I do have a manual, but I'm just too busy to dig through it much!) and you've all explained very good uses for them, and ways to set them up. Thanks all!
Scott McCullough
Once you get accustomed to using layers, you'll wonder how you ever got along without them. Kinda like master pages. The way they're both implemented in InDesign is far better than in Quark. But then, even PageMaker's layers are better than Quark's. I'd say the master pages are a draw--it sucks that PageMaker's master elements are static, but Quark's are way too dynamic. Just one more angle for ID to kick Quark in the hindquarters.
Let us know if you have any future questions.
Scott
Richard Sohanchyk
Scott McCullough
Scott: what the heck are you designing? That's a lot of stuff.
Richard:
Yeah, that is a lot of stuff, but it's sometimes necessary to go to great lengths to make someone else's design work. Over the years I've become accustomed to customers submitting files that won't output without significant rework, but transparency adds a whole new dimension of complexity. One customer, in particular, is notorious for submitting Frankenstein files with all kinds of complex elements interwoven with transparency. We just did an issue of their quarterly 4/C magazine that required tons of work to get to output. That was the example I described in post #57. Guess what? It's a PR magazine distributed free of charge by one of our state agencies. I won't say which agency, but I think about all the money they spend on their fancy magazine every time I hit a pothole. Oh well, it keeps our plant busy! 8^P
Scott
Shane Stanley
> Any other material I should read?
There's lots of good stuff on the InDesign scripting forum.
--
Shane Stanley, ssta...@myriad-com.com.au
Richard Sohanchyk
mary Ann Johnson
Problem: I set up doc in Master Pages. After printing the doc I needed a larger top margin (printer quark) so of course I just needed to drop the margin in the Master Page. Wrong; now I have two seperate masters being printed on the same page. It does not show up on the screen but sure is a mess on the printed page. How do I void out the first Master? I thought I just had to adjust it and it would take care of the shift.
I also have one page in the 40 pg doc that comes out in a larger font. What's with that? When I check the size in the doc it's the same as the rest of the pages? Is there some way to make all the "hidden" stuff appear? I'm not in tears but I am pushing a dead line. Thanks a bunch.
Julian Berdych
Are you really running the old ID 2.0? It has a bunch of known problems, and 2.0.1 is very stable on my 9.2.2. system. There's a 2.0.2 update available also, and I've not heard any complaints about it. So first, get your installation up to date.
Some things to check: (a) How many master pages do you have? Sounds like it should be only one, the A-master. (b) Look at the Pages palette and make sure that every page is based on the master you expect it to be based on (each page should have an "A" in its icon).
If some pages are indeed based on the wrong master, simply drag the correct master to the page's icon in the Pages palette. When there are no more pages that use the errant master(s), you can delete the no-longer-used masters from the Pages palette.
Hope this helps,
...Julian. (Montreal, Canada)
P.S. There's no magic hidden stuff (other than spaces, tabs, etc.) -- the palettes read everything out. But there's a technique involved: you start with a page, select things, look at the palettes, then go to the master that the page is based on, inspect it, go to the master that the master is based on, etc.
Laura Hickle
I just finished working on a magazine, and used layers this time. Awesome! I had two ads that needed to be stripped in after the imposed films were run out, and I needed FPO ads for the client to see, so I created an FPO layer on the very top. One layer down, I had a "window" layer, which contained the black window boxes I needed to leave for the strippers. I turned off the Window layer and turned on the FPO layer for the client, and then switched them when it came time to go to film. Ordinarily I would not want the client to see something different than what was going to film; but in this case, we produce a press version and an online-PDF version of the magazine, and I needed the FPO ad for the web version anyway. Layers made it extremely easy!
This particular mag runs on the press with limited color, but the web version uses full color throughout. I'm thinking that it might make sense to have one layer for the grayscale photos, and another for the color photos -- and just turn off one or the other depending on the output. Before this, I have had two copies of every issue -- a press version and a web version. Now it could all be in the same document! Excellent ...
Scott McCullough
That's great! You'll discover even more uses for InDesign's features as you go. Another thing we use layers for is creating spot varnishes. The possibilities are almost endless....
Scott