AE6.5

[ploo...@adobeforums.com]

Looks like AE6.5 will be coming out on April 21, according to this:

http://www.chumbo.com/info.asp?s=718659361426

[tomohik...@adobeforums.com]

I think I'm going to be sick... I only just upgraded to 6.0 Pro last month and with all the trouble I'vegot already what with memory leaks and abnormal errors etc... you'd think they'd publish a patch or something but NO!, they'd rather get us to pay for a new version. Well I won't do it. I won't you know!

[Andrew...@adobeforums.com]

That reads 21st of May to me...

[Fredo...@adobeforums.com]

sooooooooo lame. If this is true. Great to know Adobe has been listening!

[Andrew...@adobeforums.com]

A Google search this morning also showed this French retail site offering the same product.

<http://www.ldlc.fr/fiche/PB00021614.html>

I suspect it's all true, particularly as an Adobe guy on this forum aluded to a "big announcement" at NAB. The May release date would fit fairly well if the upgrade is announced next week.

Frankly, I don't care if I have to pay a little, so long as the bumps are properly ironed out and there are some cool new features to warrant a substantial number revision. Nested comps within one timeline window (a la layer sets) would be worth it alone.

But I also get it that others may be a bit pissed if they've still had no joy with 6.0. I've been lucky and had very few problems.

[Navarro...@adobeforums.com]

To quote a famous TV celebrity: "Wha Happened???"

I hope NAB is filled with good news like this. As long as it isn't "AE 6.5 for PC only!"

[Ryan...@adobeforums.com]

I for one think it is robbery.

I just hope that anyone who has had trouble with AE6 like I have will be angry enough to NOT upgrade for this iteration of AE.

The only way we can send these people a message as consumers is by denting their profits enough to cause them concern. No one wants to see AE thrive and improve like I do, but AE6 and software like it is quite simply unacceptable. Something has to be done about it... especially as there are no real laws in effect to protect us. Companies like Adobe and Microsoft who have cornered market categories can just keep ripping us off with buggy software and suffer no ill consequences. Unless... we as consumers make their sad attempts to make money off their own bugs a losing propostion.

I don't want this to sound like one of those gasoline emails telling people not to buy gas on certain days. All I am saying is for those of us who have experienced AE6 bugs and were unable to get work done as a result should NOT buy the upgrade. I have switched back to AE5.5 and am very happy. I would love to use some of the new features of 6, and I can only imagine what 6.5 will have... BUT, I am not going to reward these people for what amounts to extortion. And you shouldn't either.

RR

[tomohik...@adobeforums.com]

Quote: "All I am saying is for those of us who have experienced AE6 bugs and were unable to get work done as a result should NOT buy the upgrade."

But then how will I get any work done? It's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I need to buy 6.5 that, hypothetically at least, fixes all the bugs that's affecting my work flow. But if I buy it, it's sending the wrong message to Adobe (that I'm happy that they're providing me with inferior product). How can I send the right message and at the same time get some work done?

[Fredo...@adobeforums.com]

work in another system. Learn to use Combustion and convert your work to that program. I think AE, and to some extent Adobe, is starting to get a pretty bad reputation among professionals. At least the ones I know in NYC. I'm trying to do music as much as possible and so don't have the time or energy to convert to another app, but four years ago I would have. This is robbery. It's the second time they have done this in a row and it's shameful.

[Ryan...@adobeforums.com]

Tomohiko,

I would suggest finishing any current projects as best you can with AE6, and then switch back to AE5.5 (if you have that version). Otherwise, you may very well need to upgrade.

I understand your quandry by needing the fix, but hating to reward them for the terrible job they did on 6. You may not be able to skip this upcoming version. My message is for those of us who have AE5.5 and/or Combustion. Those of us who can feasibly skip this upgrade and effectively "vote" our conscience.

I hope the next version of AE has the most dismal sales of any in the company's history. Only because I want them to know that we have the buying power and that we will not settle for sub-par software. I want AE to progress and get better, but... paying for apps to discover bugs for Adobe so they can release fixes that I must then pay for again is ridiculous.

It is my contention that even though AE6 has some great new features, there is really nothing I can't do with 5.5. I still turn out great animations each week for my company. Having the features of AE6 does not make me a better animator/compositor.

RR

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

I hope the next version of AE has the most dismal sales of any in the
company's history. Only because I want them to know that we have the buying
power and that we will not settle for sub-par software.

Judging by how Adobe interpreted lagging sales of Premiere for Mac, I wouldn't count on the Adobe execs drawing the right conclusions from a dip in AE sales.

Aaron

[Rick_...@adobeforums.com]

Gripe, gripe, gripe,

Fred says:

work in another system. Learn to use Combustion and convert your work
to that program. I think AE, and to some extent Adobe, is starting to
get a pretty bad reputation among professionals.

Funny, I'm not seeing this. Not one professional I associate with is disgusted with AE. I find quite the opposite. They are excited about and using AE's increased capabilities. If you check most MO Graphics sites like Design In Motion you'll see a larger and larger number of high end projects created in AE. As for Combustion - I've never found C* as stable as AE. I'd look for some significant upgrades in performance and capabilities - the announced inclusion of Grid Iron alone would be worth the price of an upgrade IMHO. It's not that I think Adobe walks on water, but they still make the most versatile and stable compositing software I've ever seen. If you HATE AE, don't whine – just pick another app. There are plenty to choose from.

[Ryan...@adobeforums.com]

Rick,

I am curious, what system do you use and what is your configuration?

I am using the most qualified PC according to posted Adobe specs. If you have had such success with AE6 I'd like to know what hardware config you've managed to do this on.

Mainly because I want whatever it is you have so the damn thing will work.

Futhermore, if AE6 is so sensitive to hardware configuration, as it seems to be, I think Adobe should have been more specific with their hardware suggestions instead of duping people into believing that whatever they ran AE5.5 on would definitely work with 6.

RR

[Fredo...@adobeforums.com]

Rick, the name's Fredo, and believe me there are plenty of professionals who are less than thrilled with AE and Adobe in general. Everybody knows that it is a wonderful jackknife, but several of the most important aspects of the software are awkward and don't seem to be improving version after version, which is very disappointing. This is not whining, and I resent your attitude enormously. The point here is to try to get some folks at AE to recognize some justifiable criticisms. If you don't like it can't you just please ignore such posts and refrain from personal insults. Thank you. (the finger)

[Mike_M...@adobeforums.com]

Being relatively new to AE and starting on AE 6, I have found that everything I do appears to work as it should. I do not use AE every day. In fact, I typically use it for about 2 or three days strait and then do not use it again for two or three weeks. This being said, it is likely that I am not tasking AE as hard as most of you and just may not have encountered any bugs yet. So I am curious what all of the bugs are that everyone is finding.

As a user of Premiere since version 4, I am quite familiar with bugs in Adobe software. This discussion reminds me much of threads that were going around when Premiere 6 was out and 6.5 was being released. While the latest offering of Premiere (Pro) is not 100% bug free, it is a huge improvement over any other Premiere version and I commend Adobe for starting over to improve it. So far, I have as many good things to say about After Effects 6 as I do about PPro.

Back in the bug riddled Premiere days, I was as outspoken about the problems as anyone. And would agree that consumers should never reward manufacturers by upgrading from a defective product. But in this case, I think that we may be putting the cart before the horse. Adobe has not announced what 6.5 is or how much it may cost to upgrade from 6.0. Based on historical precedence, there will likely be a charge, but until Adobe lets us know what it is, I'd refrain from getting to hyped up about it. Maybe its a remote chance, but perhaps there will be a patch to fix whatever is so terrible with 6 that will be released at the time 6.5 is released. Or, perhaps, 6.5 will be a free upgrade. This may be a bit Pollyanna of me to suggest, but lets wait a few weeks until Adobe announces something before we get too mad about paying for bug fixes. Are we even sure that these web sites are reputable that they know there even is a 6.5?

[Steven_...@adobeforums.com]

All,
I have been using AE for only 5 years, although pretty non-stop. I came in on the tail-end of the AE3.5 days. I have seen logical improvements with each upgrade/update on both platforms and have always been exceptionally happy with each one. The one exception would be 5.5 on the Mac side as its interface was sluggish on EVERY SINGLE Mac I ever used (I won't listen to any arguments about that). I have taught a AE class since 2000 in a Mac lab and have had the opportunity to see how students react to each aspect of the program.

ANYWAY...My studio is doing quite well and with the advent of the G5, my studio has moved over to be about 90% Mac-centric. Likewise, I am fortunate that my studio is booked solid on AE projects from last December through Summer 2005. So far, I or my video team have yet to have ANY problems with AE6. Solid as a rock. Previewing is amazing, rendering is rediculously fast and all that sluggishness of 5.5 is gone.

The common denominator is that the whole team is on G5 Dual 2.0 with 512megs of RAM in OSX.3. That's it, nothing special. I am so thoroughly satisfied with AE and Photoshop which are the only 2 Adobe products I use. I am certainly trying to maintain my Combustion chops and want to learn Shake, but for now, it's ALL AE.

My 2 cents,

steven
<http://www.horsebacksalad.com>

[Rick_...@adobeforums.com]

I use AE6 on a three year old 1Ghz Duron powered laptop for demonstrations and lectures, on a Dual Athlon MP 1900 with a GForce 5200 display card for paying work, and will soon be running an Ailenware Dual Xeon workstation. I’ll let you know how it works. My drivers are all up to date and my systems are clean. NO games, no freebee programs downloaded from the net. I also occasionally use 6.0 on a G4 and G5 for some of my clients. I recently taught a class in Dayton Ohio where we had about 40 single processor P4 IBM machines with 512 MB ram running AE6 and the students put the workstations through their paces using only the plug-ins that come with the Pro version. I don’t recall a single student machine hanging up. I also have Combustion, Commotion, and Avid software running on some of the PC's. AE is the most stable of all. There have been problems with 3rd party plug-ins – most have been fixed by their authors, some have not and probably will not be fixed. There have been problems when the OS or the service packs change. Most have been dealt with. There are a few known bugs, but all in all, whatever I need to get done I get done on time and on or under budget with AE. Is it the best compositing software on the planet? NO. Does it feed my family? Yes.

Why do I sound irritated. I probably shouldn’t have opened my mouth. If I offended any I apologize. It just makes no sense to me at all to start bitching about a product, a company, and an army of beta testers that devote a big part of their lives to trying to improve a product before the product is even released. Some of you sound like Adobe is squeezing every last dollar they can out of your pockets, then planning to run away and leave you with a product that just won’t work. I have a hard time being that cynical.

Is Adobe doing a good job? I think they produce, overall, one of the best applications out there. Was AE 6 the best upgrade ever? Nope – but it was well worth the money. Does the marketing department put too much pressure on the developers to release the next version? If you ask the developers the answer is probably yes. Am I encouraging you to run out and buy 6.5? Nope. I’ll reserve that until I’ve seen the release. Will Adobe remain the leader? I don’t know. If something better, cheaper, faster, easier to use were to come along would I jump ship? Sure, if it made economic sense. I’m no dummy and the last thing that I want to do is sit around and wait for a re-boot. Do I whine about spending a little money on an upgrade? Not if the upgrade will give me more tools and save me time. I’ve never seen an upgrade from Adobe that didn’t deliver in these areas. While there have been some disappointments, I’ve never thought that I was gypped. I have seen other companies completely drop a product without so much as a ‘thank ya mam.’ Adobe hasn’t left me high and dry yet and I don’t think that’s their new MO.

So I guess I’m done with this thread. If you don’t want to upgrade – don’t. If you want to bitch about Adobe, have fun. If you’re mad as hell and you just aren’t going to take it anymore, then don’t take it anymore. It’s not going to hurt my feelings a bit. I’ll just go on trying to provide the best customer service and product to my clients that I can while devoting most of my time to my family – which is really the only thing that really matters in my life.

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

5.5 on Mac OS X was something of a breaking point for me in my attitude toward AE. I still love the program's capabilities, but it is infuriatingly sluggish. I have been forced to stay with 5.5 due to client needs (I don't get to upgrade until they do) and going back to OS 9 simply is not an option. I simply can't understand why this version was never fixed.

So, although the outrage is a bit premature, I can understand those who are angry about the potential for the same thing happening to 6.0, though I have no experience with it myself. Sometimes upgrading isn't an option, and each time we have to pay for major bug fixes Adobe's credibility gets eroded.

Aaron

[Navarro...@adobeforums.com]

Aaron, AE 5.5 on Mac OS X works great in the graphics department I work in. Have you applied the 5.5.1 update?

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

Yep, 5.5.110 here., and I've seen this problem on every machine I've tried it on. AE is fairly responsive for simple projects, but once I get into anything complex the difference between AE on OS 9 and AE on OS 10 goes through the roof. On OS X AE draws the interface (i.e. the timeline and other elements) AFTER it redraws the comp view, which is completely backward. It also registers mouse-up events late, meaning if it takes a few seconds to redraw the interface, you can end up dragging an element (a keyframe, a layer, anything) halfway across the screen even though you released the mouse button at the appropriate place. It is VERY frustrating.

Aaron

[Michae...@adobeforums.com]

I found out that removing the OpenGL plugin from the plugins folder solved most of my problems. Thank goodness as it was becoming a real nightmare. I'm using AE6 on two PC's as well as on two Dual G5's. I feel that it performs better on the PC's for sure.

[Tim_Ca...@adobeforums.com]

After effects has never crashed for me. I am glad I haven't bought After Effects 6.0 yet, I've been using the demo for about 3 months becuase I heard that another version was going to be coming out!

[Futur...@adobeforums.com]

You've been using the 30 day trial version for 3 months? hmmm... :)

[Mike_...@adobeforums.com]

In our 24/7 production environment, a product must work, work predictably, and reliably, all the time.

AE 5.5 has been our PC-based renderfarm workhorse without hitch for a long time now.

AE 6.0 has tons of problems, and is unstable. We cannot afford to use it. It is being removed from the system now, and we're returning to 5.5, with a big "F-you" to Adobe for releasing what they knew was buggy software. Trust me, if an end user can find 3 problems with an app within 10 mins of working with it, the company knows about it.

Mike

[steve_...@adobeforums.com]

After Effects 6.5 was announced today. See:
<http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/main.html> for details.

[Mike_...@adobeforums.com]

So what? Haven't you heard the expression, "Fool me once..."

Mike

[nick/slic...@adobeforums.com]

Shit I only bought the Digital collection 1 or so month ago :-(((((
Who qualifies for free upgrade? Isn't there a grace period?
I am sure I am past it bahhhhh!!!!!

[Navarro...@adobeforums.com]

How much for earlier versions to 6.5? It looks like owners of 5.5 will have to pay full price?

<http://www.adobe.com/store/products/master.jhtml?id=catAfterEffects>

[tomohik...@adobeforums.com]

$99 for an upgrade from 6.0 to 6.5. Not as much as I expected. I will probably get it for that price. Even though it is morally wrong.

Does anyone know when the upgrades are coming to UK?

[tomohik...@adobeforums.com]

The PDF on the site says:

Upgrades from 3.x, 4.x, 5.x Standard version to AE 6.5 standard $199.

<http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/pdfs/aftereffects_nfhs.pdf>

[Navarro...@adobeforums.com]

Ah! thanks! I wish their website and their PDF would have the same info...

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

The added a Light Burst effect! Does this mean no more Shine questions?

Also, it looks like they put a new particle system in 6.5.

Oh, and a 5.5 PB->6.5 Pro upgrade is still $300, Navarro.

Aaron

[nick/slic...@adobeforums.com]

One thing I don't understand. I have the video collection (Pro) version.
Now if I want to upgrade to Video Collection (Pro) 2.5.
Its $200 something dollars. As Photoshop CS is the only product not getting updated in the collection. What will I get in the Video collection upgrade pack with regards to Photoshop?

[Sean_...@adobeforums.com]

I have AE 6 standard which came with my standard video collection. To upgrade AE 6 standard to AE 6.5 PRO is $499 US. But to upgrade my entire video collection to the new Pro collection is only $799 plus I get Photoshop CS with it (which is the insentive to upgrade the bundle). The question now will be whether this version is also plagued with bugs or not. I don't want to have to buy AE 7.0 in 6 months!

[nick/slic...@adobeforums.com]

I am thinking of missing this one and getting the full upgrade along with full PS CS upgrade whenenver it comes out.

[Scot_...@adobeforums.com]

People are having different experiences here. I used AE 6 on a dual G5 for a 38 minute animation piece with 3D layers and it didn't crash on me once. That doesn't mean the people who are experiencing problems aren't. It only means I'm not using the application in the same way that exhibits the bugs.

Benchmarks show the dual G5 smokes every other system with AE 6.

The only thing I would agree on in regards to criticisms is it's not good at all when a developer doesn't issue a single free patch for their application before asking for more money with a new upgrade.

6.5 looks to have some features I would gladly pay $99 for. If I were experiencing a lot of problems created by bugs, I would be very pissed too. Macromedia is infamous for this behavior, and it's one of the reasons I gladly give Adobe my money. I hope isn't going the way of Macromedia in this regard (free patches).

[Ryan...@adobeforums.com]

"Benchmarks show the dual G5 smokes every other system with AE 6."

Oh really? Have you checked out the latest dual AMD 64bit machine from Boxx Technologies? It is hands down faster than the G5. In fact, there are plenty of PC workstations faster than the G5. Are you getting your info from Apple, or MacWorld. Of course the Mac is faster there... in Macland Apple is always on top, somehow.

Apple marketing never changes. Tell the faithful what they want to hear and it becomes truth. Enjoy it while you can, before Apple becomes a music broker full-time. They sure as hell aren't selling an apreciable amount of workstations. Their cute laptops and iPods are popular, though...

The G5 is really not as fast as they claim it to be. And whenever the PC or the G5 wins, the difference really isn't all that appreciable. All Apple did was sort of catch up to everyone else.

RR

[Scot_...@adobeforums.com]

Total Training guy's benchmarks:
<http://www.media-motion.tv/aebenchmarks.html>

After Effects Night Flight benchmark with dual Opteron:
<http://www.barefeats.com/g5op.html>

AE is now optimized for the G5 with version 6.5, so I would expect much better results now.

[Mark_...@adobeforums.com]

Call me naive, but I'm really shocked that Adobe would do this... Granted, I've only been using their products on my system for a couple of years now, but I hadn't seen anything like this in the past, where they'd offer an "upgrade" (read 'fix') less than a year after the Video Collection 2 bundle was released. Sure, the "upgrade" is ONLY $249 (according to their HIGHLY qualified phone rep), but shouldn't they take care of fixing the bugs before they go charging for extras?

As an early adopter of this bundle, I am outside of the grace period...

Would somebody help me get this knife outta my back?

[nick/slic...@adobeforums.com]

I would gladly pull the knife out of your back but I am on the floor bleeding myself ...my heart got pierced by a similar knife:-)

[Andrew...@adobeforums.com]

I think Adobe have gone out of their way to make this upgrade worthwhile. Consider what you get for a $99 upgrade:

Substantial components of Final Effects Complete plugins, and newly optimized and upgraded: $795

Synthetic Aperture's Color Finesse plugin: $460

Firewire output for PC owners - Echofire would have cost them $205 previously (although I concede that this was LONG overdue!)

Gridiron X-factor grid-computing engine (for two additional machines) - ??? Dunno, but for me with three G5 Dual 2's, this is absolutely awesome!

I know I'm one of the lucky ones - AE 6.0 has been rock solid from the day it arrived - but I think Adobe are offering a hell of alot for the small upgrade price,

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

Sure, but good customer service would involve fixing the bugs for free and offer the new features for pay. As it is, we still have to wait to see if 6.5 includes any substantial bug fixes and not more bugs. How do we know 6.5 won't be just like 5.5 and 6.0 were for many of us?

Aaron

[Ronald_An...@adobeforums.com]

what about the Gridiron X-factor grid-computing engine? where did you see that being included?

[Steven_...@adobeforums.com]

<http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/pdfs/gridiron_xfactor_faq.pdf>

[soni...@adobeforums.com]

The only part of the upgrade that bums me is that you don't get Invigorator when you already have the Pro Bundle.

From the AE6.5 New Features pdf:

"The Professional edition of After Effects 6.5 also includes Keylight from The Foundry, 3D Assistants Lite from Digital Anarchy, and Zaxwerks 3D Invigorator Classic.

"Customers who purchase the Standard edition of After Effects, or who upgrade to version 6.5, will receive a $200 (USD) discount coupon from Zaxwerks good toward the purchase of 3D Invigorator (Classic or Professional versions)."

So, to add Invigorator and upgrade--essentially matching the capabilities of a new full version purchase--costs $350.

I really felt nailed when I went from 4.1 to 5.5, and then 6.0 came out 2 months later. Two $200 upgrades in 4 months and I still didn't get Invigorator! I guess I can settle for having a color corrector and a healthy portion of ice fx, though.

[jyo...@adobeforums.com]

IMHO, until Adobe addresses the lame excuse of curves that they have going, it'll never be a powerhouse app.

Too bad really, because I've been using AE since CoSA, and while I do use AE 80% of the time, I find myself using Combustion and/or Shake even more than ever before. Once you get around the GUI and the learning curve of those apps, AE becomes less and less of a professional application.

[Mark_...@adobeforums.com]

This is really frustrating. I just spoke with an ADOBE rep at 1(800)833-6687, and neither he nor his "supervisor" could help me. I told them that they should open up the upgrade grace period to all licensed users since the product itself, for which we had paid good money, was inherently flawed. I was told to call ADOBE HQ at (408)536-6000, fax (408)537-6000, or snail mail:
345 Park Ave.
San Jose, CA 95110-2704
Reps there were also unable to help... ADOBE's stance is that there are no major flaws in their product. Apparently they don't use their own stuff...

I guess the "upgrade" (read=patch) fee is to cover the salaries of the phone reps who can't do anything for me...

[Ronald_An...@adobeforums.com]

ok, just my thoughts here...

first of all AE 6.0 works pretty solid for me (except for some crashes that are really...). Looking at the price for the update and the things i'm getting for it (especially the x-factor thingy) really makes me wanna say: great job adobe!!! really dont get it why people keep complaining about a and keep complaining about paying for updates or $200 for upgrading plugins. i mean how long do you have to work to get those bucks back in? one job (i dont even think so)? work in a company where we use all kind of compositing apps, also the highend discreet stuff, and i keep on beating the crap out of those systems when comparing the final result and in a lot of cases renderingspeed and the time to get the job done. oh, and in case you are wondering, i'm not getting paid to write this...

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

This isn't just about the purchase price, Ronald, but about what we get for the money, and what we lose in income thanks to this kind of developer behavior. Yeah, we get new features, but do we get bug fixes? Do the new features actually work as advertised? Does other stuff get broken that won't get fixed before the next paid upgrade, if then?

How much income have users less fortunate than you lost due to these productivity-draining problems, and how much more is lost when bug fixes are held hostage until a new full- or half-version rollout, complete with new features, pressed installer discs, printed manuals, physical distribution, website redesign, ad campaigns, etc., all timed for a big broadcaster's conference? Why not post a downloadable patch for the old version's major bugs, then capitalize on that good will to entice us to spend money on the great new features, instead of effectively blackmailing us into spending money in the hope that this version will be more stable and responsive than the last?

Aaron

[Andrew...@adobeforums.com]

While I sympathise with those users who have experienced problems, the vast majority of designers I know are having very few problems with AE 6.0, on either platform.

Forums tend to push negative feedback (coz who posts on a forum to let everyone know how fine and zippy their software is behaving?) and rightly so, they're purpose is for problem solving.

I truly believe that Adobe would have addressed the issue by now if there were clearly defined major bugs that they could address. A guy from Adobe even posted on this forum (hinting about 6.5) and stated that the vast majority of their users on both platforms are happy with AE 6. Company line? Maybe, but a company like Adobe spends millions on market research, quality assurance and product assessment. I can't believe they'd sit idly by if a large majority of their customers were grossly disatisfied.

I'm with Ronald, I'm more than happy with the update and it's price. If I can use X-Factor to halve or better my preview and render times, I'd pay triple the price in a heartbeat.

[Curtis...@adobeforums.com]

Obviously the people that aren't having problems are not pushing the software to any extremes. I have had nothing but hassles with 6.0 and I truely thought Adobe would step up and deliver a 6.1 version to get rid of the bugs. After seeing that I have to pay for a "Bug FIX" upgrade I am thinking of ditching AE altogether. 5.5 was rock solid and 6.0 is a joke. POOEY on Adobe for screwing it's long time and loyal customers.
Curtis

[Steven_...@adobeforums.com]

"Obviously the people that aren't having problems are not pushing the software to any extremes."

HA!!! Yeah, right, buddy. Come sit by me at work.

Jesus...

-s

[Scot_...@adobeforums.com]

Well, I animated a couple black words on a sold white background. That's the stuff I typically do. :)

[Philo_...@adobeforums.com]

Scot, how did you do that? A couple = two words. That's cool!!! And on a white background. Wow. ;-)

[Scot_...@adobeforums.com]

Well, of course I used a plug-in. :)

[Navarro...@adobeforums.com]

Get outta town!! I thought that was something only a Flame could do!

[Curtis...@adobeforums.com]

Steven,
I don't need to. I sit in front of the program daily. It(6.0) is the buggiest version yet. I am a long time user (since 3.0) and not a happy animator.

My machine is capable...Dual Xeon 2 Gig, 2 Gig Ram, 128 MB nVidia Card under XP Pro...with all of the latest drivers etc.

Adobe should be embarassed for releasing it and not fixing all of the bugs for it's users.
Curtis

[Steven_...@adobeforums.com]

Curtis,
Blanket comments are silly. I too have a team of artists who work in AE full-time. We haven't had a crash since moving from 5.5. We've obviously had very different experiences. I too am a long-time user. Between the animated cartoon series and 3 educational titles we're currently working on, we push the program pretty fuggin hard. We're working on both Macs and PCs.

I don't know what to tell you. I would be mad too. I'm just not having ANY problems (now Lightwave and Flash are another story).

Good times!

-steven

[Steven_...@adobeforums.com]

Curtis,
Word.
-steven

[Curtis...@adobeforums.com]

Steven,
Congrats! It seems from the rest of the messages that you are one of the few that didn't have problems with it. Funny thing is I rarely have problems with Lightwave and the great thing about NewTek is that they DO release updates for buggy software for free. Go figure.
I guess it comes down to customer service.
Curtis

[Andrew...@adobeforums.com]

Curtis, I output 3 - 6 intensely graphic TV spots per week, I'm working on a music clip with upward of 800 layers (spread through lots of nested comps), and produce a series of corporate award shows which take at least 24 hours of rendering each week. Across 3 AE 6.0 seats I might experience one or two crashes a week.

I'm sorry your experience is not as positive.

[Curtis...@adobeforums.com]

Andrew,
Hmmmmm...guess I better jump back into troubleshooting again then. My stuff is generally not THAT intense. Mac or PC? Video cards? Ram? BTW, I'm sorry my experience isn't as positive as yours too...believe me! :)
Thanks,
Curtis

[Char...@adobeforums.com]

"I output 3 - 6 intensely graphic TV spots per week"

Fangoria?!?!?

:)

[David_...@adobeforums.com]

I'd like to personally apologize for the reliability problems that some people are having with AE6.0, and explain a bit about what I think is going on. I’ll try not to be too defensive, but as I’m defending our honor, that will be hard.

One of my least favorite things in the world is unreliable software, so I hate to think some people now put AE in that category. I've spent the last 12 years working on After Effects, and this is quite upsetting to see.

Up until 5.5, our reputation for stability was well known. So what was different about 6.0? Not the staff -- the engineering & QA team has remained remarkably stable. I think there are two major factors that affected stability for some people: 1) we decided to take a risk we had always avoided -- hardware dependence (OpenGL), and 2) we under-estimated the importance of 3rd-party effects.

Starting with AE6.0, when OpenGL is enabled, we are now dependent on the card & driver installed on the machine. We’ve had to work around or get the manufacturer to fix an incredible number of platform/card/driver-specific bugs, on both Mac & Windows.

Also in AE6.0, for performance reasons we had to start enforcing existing rules for how effect plug-ins work. This revealed bugs in 3rd-party effects. For a certain type of misbehavior, we worked around all the offenders we found, and left in a back-door to cover for any others found after shipping (see <http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/3164e.htm)>. But in some cases there is no work-around besides getting an update from the plug-in manufacturer.

After AE6.0 shipped, we were concerned about the number of crashing reports. Once we removed all the configuration-specific OpenGL problems and 3rd-party plug-in bugs, we were left with 3 repeatable problems. They were fixed in the plug-in update we posted in December (Radial Wipe, OpenGL (win), Colorama (mac)).

So to everyone saying we should have released a bug-fix-only update, that’s what that plug-in update was. It covered _all_ the critical problems that we’d heard about up until that time. And no new critical issues have been confirmed. That’s not to say they don’t exist, just that we haven’t seen them.

So I ask for your help in making AE better. If you’ve downloaded the December update, disabled or updated 3rd-party effects, followed the OpenGL troubleshooting document, and still have a problem, please report it to us at aeb...@adobe.com. We’ll need specific information on your hardware & system config, and how to reproduce the problem. Thank you.

-DaveS, AE Engineering Manager

P.S. We have no plans to drop the Mac.

P.P.S. I think the $99 upgrade price for 6.5 is a total steal – if someone had offered Color Finesse, Grain Surgery, and Final Effects Complete to you for $99 a week ago, you’d think they were selling pirated software. Of course you get all the new 6.5 features too.

[Andrew...@adobeforums.com]

David, many thanks for taking the time to post, its always reassuring to hear from the source! If anyone tries to follow the techdoc link in David's post it has a stray bracket at the end. Correct link is <http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/3164e.htm> I would REALLY appreciate some clarity on the Final Effects info, just to know which plugins are included.

Char Siu: Heh heh, I'd rather be makin' a Zombie movie, believe me! :-)

Curtis: For the really tough stuff (in the office) I'm using 3 x Mac G5 Dual 2Ghz machines, pretty standard except 2GB RAM and Decklink Cards with Medea Drive Arrays via SCSI. I use PC at home, a P4 2.8, GeForce 9600 video, only 768 Mb RAM. The post above has stolen most of my thunder - had a friend who was having all sorts of problems with AE6 on a Dell Laptop, we clean installed everything from the OS up, only adding 3rd party plugins after confirming the regular app worked fine on its own. Eventually discovered an older version of Zaxwerks and display drivers were both causing problems. I really do sympathise, I know how much time and hair these kinda problems rob you of. Good Luck!

[Curtis...@adobeforums.com]

David,
Thank you for your input. I am glad that you are listening. I did not mean to infer that the upgrade would not be worth the measly $99. And I am excited about the new additions to the software! Of course I will upgrade as I always have.

I did go through all of the troubleshooting tasks early in the year. I still am having issues. Unfortunately(fortunately?) I have been too busy to spend the time to jump into troubleshooting mode again and therefore dealing with the crashes on an almost daily basis. I hope to get a break and try to see if I can solve these problems. If not I will get in touch as you suggested.

Again, thanks for jumping in.

Andrew,
Thanks for getting back to me. I had heard (don't know if it's true or not) that there are not as many problems on the Mac. Guess I need to work my machine over one more time. The thing is, on several projects I was not using any plug-ins, just the basic Pro package.

Thanks again all,
Curtis

[-st...@adobeforums.com]

must agree.
great to hear from you, dave!
thanks for letting us know that you're not planning on dropping Mac development too!

-stev=o

[Navarro...@adobeforums.com]

An actual AE staff member posting on the Adobe Boards?!?! GAAAK!! Heart... exploding... need... ambulance.....

David, thanks for posting. You guys should make it a habit!

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

David,

First, thank you for responding to this thread personally.

When I suggested Adobe should have fixed bugs earlier instead of simply rolling them into a paid update, I was referring not just to 6.0 (which I haven't personally used, beyond spending a few minutes with the 30-day trial), but also to 5.5 for Mac OS X. I know folks on the PC side see 5.5 as a paragon of stability and responsiveness, but for Mac OS X users who work on complex projects it is slow, slow, slow due to the baffling de-prioritization of the interface. On top of that are myriad interface bugs which hamper workflow.

I also am cognizant of the fact that 5.5 will never be fixed, and this is not just a bout of self-pity. My concern prior to your post was that a pattern appeared to be developing: major bugs are introduced in one paid upgrade but go unfixed until the next paid upgrade, if then. Of course, based on what you are saying, the problems folks are complaining about in 6.0 is all configuration- and plugin-specific, so I suppose this means there really aren't any significant bugfixes in 6.5. If this is the case, I apologize for any suggestion that 6.5 represents more of the same, and those individuals who won't even find resolution in the paid upgrade have my sympathies.

And, to reiterate my previous statement, yes, the new features are clearly worth the upgrade price. That fact is tangential to the issue of stability and usability, which I hope you agree are features for which users should not have to pay extra, and for which users should not be made to wait while a whole- or half-version is developed, tested, and shipped. If history hasn't repeated itself, then I feel a little better as an Adobe customer. Now I'm off to, unfortunately, continue using v.5.5, which I can't upgrade without breaking compatibility with my major clients.

Thanks,

Aaron

[David_W...@adobeforums.com]

I've got to agree that I've had less crashes with Lightwave 7.5 than AE6.0.. Most of my problems seem to be caused by ram previews. Perhaps it tries to render too much, but it usually tries to play it back (at prob 5fps) and then plays fine after that.. Sometimes I get jumpy and hit a key and then bam it crashes. It's fairly uncommon, so I don't get that pissed.. I've learned SAVE SAVE SAVE..

Always good to hear from the source. Thanks for posting Adobe!

Now.. Is the new particle engine going to be better than Particle Illusion? <http://www.postmagazine.com/post/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=92720>

I just hope there's finally a lifetime control in it...

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

The product sheet mentions lifetime control.

Aaron

[tomohik...@adobeforums.com]

I think certain crashes may be prevented by the disk caching in 6.0. God! that's sooooo long over due isn't it.

Not that I get a lot of crashes any more now that I've reconfigured my PC. It takes a lot of guess work and trial and error to get this right though.

[David_...@adobeforums.com]

I would REALLY appreciate some clarity on the Final Effects info, just
to know which plugins are included.

I don't have a list, but I can tell you that the effects are being bundled on our CD in a separate installer. It's an updated version of Final Effects Complete, from Cycore once again. One change is that Particle World now honors AE's comp camera.

David, thanks for posting. You guys should make it a habit!

I would like to post more often, but the volume here makes it prohibitive to keep up. If you see a thread that really needs my attention, please let me know: ae...@cosaXXX.com (drop the XXX's).

new features are clearly worth the upgrade price. That fact is tangential
to the issue of stability and usability, which I hope you agree are features
for which users should not have to pay extra, and for which users should
not be made to wait while a whole- or half-version is developed, tested,
and shipped.

Agreed.

Now I'm off to, unfortunately, continue using v.5.5, which I can't upgrade
without breaking compatibility with my major clients.

You probably already know this, but just in case, there's a 5.5.1 updater in the downloads section. I'm surprised to hear of your UI slowness issues on OS X. My guess is a 3rd-party OS extension that is slowing down event propagation. We had a situation like that under OS9, but it's the first I've heard under OS X.

-DaveS

[Aaron...@adobeforums.com]

5.5.110 is installed on all the machines I use, including my home machine. Did you guys really not get any bug reports about this issue? It has been many months, so I could be misremembering, but I thought I submitted bug reports on this and several other major issues with AE 5.5. And I realize this isn't an official channel, but 5.5's unresponsiveness on OS X has certainly been discussed on this forum at some length.

Aaron

[Mike_...@adobeforums.com]

David -

Glad to see you're listening! If, while defending the issues with 6.0 you could please tell me why Collect Files now takes a prohibitivley long period of time, even for "Project Only", I'd appreciate it. 5.5's Collect Files dialog box pops right up, but 6.0's (we do a lot of film work, so the media is usally, say 20,000+ 2k frame sequences) dialog box doesn't come up sometimes for hours, sometimes never.

We collect files to our Linux based 2 terrabyte array, and still have no issues with 5.5. We'd LIKE to use 6.0, but we can't use this feature, and without it, we can't do the work!

Thanks!

Mike

[-st...@adobeforums.com]

hey mike,
I know it''s not a solution, but if you have 5.5 and 6 on the same machine/server, then couldn't you launch 5.5 to import the sequence(s), save/quit 5.5, launch 6, and import the 5.5 project that has the imported sequences? kind of a pain in the hairy arse, but it would beat the livin' daylights out of waiting for hours for a dialogue box to pop-up (if it DOES pop up to begin with).
| ; D
what kind of system are you running, and the the images stored locally, or are you pulling 'em off of a network?

-stev=o

[Felix...@adobeforums.com]

AE 6.0 has been working quite well for me on OSX, except that the opengl seems to be slower than adaptive resolution previews.

My main wish for future versions of AE is to be more compatible with PS files. I still want to see the advanced blending option in AE layers, and better integration of the layer effects. I spend a lot of time having to flatten effects and layers before I can continue working in AE. Most of the time my comp looks NOTHING like it does in PS, and most of it is due to the fact that AE doesnt honor the advanced blending settings, most importantly the fill opacity.

For example, check out this file (96KB):
Test.zip <http://www.nightjarco.com/test.zip>
This is a simple psd file. Try opening it in PS, and then importing it as a comp into AE.

I've also noted this in previous posts:
Felix Mack "AE / PS compatibility Issues" 2/22/04 7:04pm </cgi-bin/webx?14@@.2ccfe921/3>

[david_v...@adobeforums.com]

Another note of thanks for posting here from Adobe!
It really does help. (And, as a software engineer,
hoo boy do I hear you when you talk about the risks
of relying on outside hardwares, softwares, &c!)

About Mac OS X and clunky UI --

I have a project with a 2k x 2k composition in it, and bunch of layers. I find that when working with it, AE often loses the mouse-up event, and leaves my cursor dragging things even though I've lifted up my finger. If I'm very careful, and stop moving the mouse, wait 10 seconds, then lift my finger, all is well.

This is a 5.5 project; for obscure Expression reasons (nothing intractable, just haven't done the work) I haven't used it in 6.0 yet.

-- dvb

[David_...@adobeforums.com]

Aaron: we have a bug filed on Collect Files in 5.5 being slow on OS X while the progress bar is showing. Workaround is to put AE in the background. Fixed in 6.0.

Mike: please file your Collect Files issue ASAP at aeb...@adobe.com, including platform & server details. Might be too late for 6.5 though. BTW, 20,000 files in one directory can stress the OS (performance), so consider breaking up into smaller sets.

Felix: please send your requests for PSD support to aftere...@adobe.com, ranked in order of importance. Every cycle we add more PSD compatibility, for example in AE6.5 PS Layer sets are imported as subcomps, and text on a path from PS CS comes in and remains editable.

david: I haven't heard of that one. Besides upgrading AE, you could try upgrading your OS X if you're not on the latest.

As for bug fixing, I'm sorry that we can only work on bug-fixes for the current version. We're still just a small team -- 10 engineers.

-DaveS