ADF estimation
Vik
Grant Ronald
If your legacy app is in assembler its probably going to take longer to
write as an ADF application that if it was a Java application.
There is also the point to consider as to whether you are going for a
like-for-like application or are intending to rearchitect. And related
to that point might you also consider what technologies you will be use
for the rewrite. Will you ONLY use ADF or might you use other products
like BPM/BPEL etc?
Maybe with a few more details we can give you some guidance.
Regards
GRant
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Vik
Chris Muir
Vik
Olivier MARTIN
In my company, we have successfully developed our first standalone ADF 11g application. This application was just a pilot project for ADF.
Our main application is an 9 years Oracle Forms application (version 10g)
Our challenge is to migrate progressively old modules and developped new one with ADF.
We can't do a big bang scenario, developping from scratch the whole system.
Questions regarding such migration for us are:
* security (authentication and authorization) strategy to adopt
* how to implement communication between ADF and Forms (Screens flows, user context's share, parameters)
* how to mix visually Forms and ADF screens inside the same browser to show a unique application
* Is it possible to share a transaction through a mix of technology.
I think we are not the only one company with such needs and a real strategy of migration is something important for many client in order to adopt ADF as their new strategy.
I guess if some of you have some experience feedbacks, best practices or methodology for such migration project.
Best regards
Olivier
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Jean-Marc Desvaux
Jean-Marc Desvaux
Grant Ronald
Lynn Munsinger Brown and I are working on a Forms to ADF case study/blue
print/POC/whitepaper (call it what you want) in which we are aiming to
show some of the decisions/techniques/etc involved as well as showing
technical solutions to common problems. The aim is to have this
published (the first iteration at least) in the next month or so and it
should cover many of the points you raised here.
Some responses to your questions.
I agree, very few customers (in this financial climate) can afford a rip
and replace approach. However one subtle difference I would make is I
would rather a mindset of not so much "replacing" Forms with ADF, but
"extending" the business solutions with ADF. So for example, if you have
back office system in Forms that is functioning well, I'd be more
hesitant to replace that like-for-like with an ADF implementation, but
instead would look at adding business benefit using ADF, where Forms
doesn't meet the requirement - e.g. adding an internet facing
application to take load of the back office business. That doesn't mean
you shouldn't/won't replace the Forms application over time but I do
sometimes question the perceived benefit of replacing a back office c/s
style of application with a web application but don't consider changing
the business model or event the style/flow of the application. Haven't
you invested effort and cost to just get to where you are now?
Regarding your specific questions, the most obvious place to share FOrms
and ADF application would be through the business layer or database. So,
refactoring Forms logic into the database or a web service and sharing
between Forms and ADF is a reasonable approach, and technically is not
so difficult. You might choose to exploit SOA technologies like BPEL and
share these between old and new.
Mashing up Forms and ADF applications on the same page is also possible
but you have to remember that while you might visually be one
application, you still have two separate applications with different
sessions. Commit Consulting developed a solution for embedding the Forms
applet as a JSF components (OraFormsFaces) and I know Wilfred (the
founder and designer of this) has used it in production systems. But as
I said, it will still fundamentally be two separate applications. We
have added features in Forms 11g (JavaScript API) which makes the
communication on the client side easier so you can also do this natively
in Forms.
Having said all that, these are two different technologies with there
own sweet spot and while there are natural share and hook points
sometimes trying to force the two together in areas where the ways of
doing things are just too different might be more effort that its worth.
For example, a database package which is written assuming a dedicated
user connection, might have to be rewritten, or at least other code
might have to cope with the fact that an ADF application may be
utilising connection pooling. Security might move from being based on
individual database accounts etc
I don't know if any of that answers any of your questions (probably
not!) but one closing shot is that we know (and have references) of many
customers who have successfully redeveloped applications - so there is
alot of knowledge in this areas.
Regards
Grant
> Capital Social : �10.000.800
> SIREN/SIRET : 493 732 713 00018
Grant Ronald
study of redeveloping a forms application in ADF. While we haven't
specifically set the stopwatch on our development time to compare it,
we've documented the steps and process involved which will help give
some idea of the work involved - so you can guesstimate how that might
map to your rewrite. The first release of this paper should be out in
the next month or so.
What I can say, is that with a background in Forms and a reasonable
grounding in ADF the development effort so far has been not far from
what would be involved in writing in from scratch with Forms. In come
cases it was easier in ADF, in others, we dropped down a few holes and
had to code our way out. I suppose in ways, regardless of where you are
coming from, you'll probably be doing many of the same things as we did
in this project - e.g. set up config management, build framework
classes, business services, validation, page flow, UI layout, look and
feel, etc etc, So it might help give you an idea of the effort involved.
As I said, we are aiming for an initial release April/May timeframe.
Regards
Grant
Vik wrote:
> This is a web application only no desktop part.
>
>
> Yes I understand it is near to impossible to talk estimations without
> knowing anything about the application in question. Though what I am
> really looking for is some doc/ analysis by someone/oracle taking some
> sample use case and doing the effort estimations to build it using ADF.
>
> I can use such study to estimate our application on similar grounds.
> So, I am not looking someone guessing the estimates for my app but
> some sort of guidelines for effort estimation in general for adf
> applications.
>
> I hope I made my point clear. Please advise ...
>
>
> Thankx and Regards
>
> Vik
> Founder
> www.sakshum.com <http://www.sakshum.com>
> www.sakshum.blogspot.com <http://www.sakshum.blogspot.com>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Chris Muir <chris...@gmail.com
> <mailto:chris...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Estimates are normally done by breaking down a set of requirements
> into it's discrete work items then placing an estimate against
> each item. As it's not possible for us to know your requirements,
> we can't provide estimates, beyond what I've described - break the
> problem down.
>
> But your post doesn't seem to be about estimates, it seems to be
> focusing on technologies such as the Tuxedo APIs, integrating
> these with ADF, making the UI behave like your current UI and so
> on. Is your concern instead, a question around will developing
> with the Tuxedo API and trying to meet your current UI behaviour
> going to effect your plans/estimates? Or in other words has
> anybody experience with developing and integrating ADF and Tuxedo,
> or, is ADF suitable for replacing your current UI?
>
> In answer to the Tuxedo question, I don't know.
>
> In answer to the suitability of ADF for your current UI, it
> depends. Is your current application a web application? Then the
> answer is maybe. Is your current application a desktop
> application? Then I doubt it. But as we know little about your
> current UI, again how can we answer this?
>
> CM.
>
>
>
> On 18 March 2011 11:52, Vik <vik...@gmail.com
> <mailto:vik...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hie
>
> So here are some more details...
>
>
> The current system's data management layer is built using
> oracle and a tuxedo wrapper. So, ui of the legacy system gets
> data from the tuxedo apis. All transaction management etc too
> happens within tuxedo.
>
> The requirement is to built the adf app behaving as close as
> the current UIs. And is intended to use same tuxedo apis as
> data source for ADF model part.
>
> Pure ADF is needed to build the stuff. So no
> SOA/BPEL/WS/Webcenter/Portlets etc.
>
> Does this help to provide more in this? Please let me know I
> will try to provide as much details as i can...
>
> Thankx and Regards
>
> Vik
> Founder
> www.sakshum.com <http://www.sakshum.com>
> www.sakshum.blogspot.com <http://www.sakshum.blogspot.com>
>
>
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Maroun
I answer to your first question how to secure the adf application and
how to authenticate automatically user in ADF application already
authenticated in Forms.
1- Create Custom Identity Asserter in Weblogic that takes Token from
HTTP header to Authenticate the user without password
2- Create SQLAuthenticator because your users and groups are in
Database or you can create LdapAuthenticator if the users are now in
Ldap
3- Add to your ADF application in web.xml
<auth-method>CLIENT-CERT,FORM</auth-method>
Login by ADF Form page if session is expired or by Token if he is
coming from Oracle Forms screen
4- In Form when you call ADF page you add to the http header the token
or you can pass the Token like a parameter and Servlet Filter take the
token from request and added it to http header and forward the request
to adf page. The identity Asserter is fired when the Token is passed
in header http and you can in IA validate the Token in assertIdentity
method by calling Webservice or Stored procedure….
You already developed POC to communicate ADF <==> Forms using
JavaScript and Applet it’s nice to share it with the community
Regards,
Maroun
> < 1KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
ainara harina
Hi Olivier,
We are on the same boat,
I can tell you what we are doing, the big forms app, is divided on modules, finnancial, wharehouse...
So we are migrating, those modules one by one.
About security i can tell you, please use adf security, and after that you can map weblogic authenticated user with database user.
Dont use Dynamic Credentials, we have done that, and we have lost months. To finish using ldap.
...
That is a big work what you are going to start
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mrs.o...@cma-cgm-systems.com
Sorry for my previous post on an existing topic...
So here the problem:
Andreas Leidner
we're in the same situation. We're an ISV with a Forms 10gR2-based
solution and we're looking at extending the Forms application with ADF
features in a new version. The application is too large to migrate it
as a whole so we'll implement new features in ADF and probably begin
migrating it in a second phase.
Since our customers expect to just use one application and are blind
to technology issues like Forms vs. ADF we feel we've to integrate
Forms and ADF at the front-end. The project just started (we needed a
long time to decide to go this way) and regarding ADF Forms
integration the current plan is as follows:
- Integrate the Forms applet via Java-to-Javascript and use the applet
legacy_lifecycle. Implement a custom declarative component to be able
to embed a "FormsView" in any JSP.
- Use ADF connection pooling (where database packages are used we'll
implement a wrapper to handle with session state)
- Use Proxy Authentication in ADF to cope with connection pooling and
database user identity (override prepareSession to switch the user
identity / open proxy session)
- Use a common context in the database to exchange authentication
information between ADF and Forms. Although I'll have a look at the
approach Maroun described (thanks!).
I'd be glad to hear more from you regarding your approach to
integration and issues you've identified.
Best regards
Andreas
On Mar 18, 8:10 am, Olivier MARTIN <mrs.omar...@cma-cgm-systems.com>
wrote:
Grant Ronald
ADF, then what are you looking to gain from moving from Forms to ADF.
Maybe understanding that might help offer some ideas.
Regards
Grant
>> Capital Social : �10.000.800
Andreas Leidner
I think I haven't been very clear, sorry. What I mean by being blind
regarding the technology is that our customers and their users
generally aren't interested in the technology itself which we use to
develop our application. They don't care if it's Forms, ADF or
whatever else (though their IT departments might care if it's Oracle
or WebLogic since they might be more comfortable with that regarding
support and training / administration). However, they do care a lot
what we, i.e. our solution, and thus the technology it's built upon
can offer feature-wise. And we all know that ADF is now - finally! -
at a point where it can compete with Forms w.r.t. developer
productivity and on the other hand it offers far superior features for
end users, e.g. nicer & more modern UI look and feel, resizable
layouts, can run in the browser without applets/plugins, diverse and
feature-rich component set (DVT components in particular), UI
personalization with MDS etc.
Regards
Andreas
> < 1KViewDownload
poelger
are you going to write this forms-ADF integration yourself?
Or are you going to use OraFormsFaces?
Best regards,
Gert
On Mar 18, 8:10 am, Olivier MARTIN <mrs.o...@cma-cgm-systems.com>
Howie Legge
I am very eager to read that paper !
I am currently working on an Oracle Forms to ADF re-write, extension,
replacement, etc.. (whatever you want to call it!)
Our application was written on Forms 1.0 (pre-production) back in the
early 1980's. It is still in production currently on 10g with plans
to migrate to 11g to allow better integration with ADF.
We are also looking to move the business from a data-entry application
to a business process based application. We are using SOA, BPEL, BPM,
and BAM in addition to ADF.
We have been chosen by Oracle (Duncan Mills is involved (he'll know me
and my project)) as a use case for the conversion.
If by any chance I miss the publication, I'd appreciate a poke to say
it's available.
Howie
Howie Legge
I'm curious as to the issues you experienced that would lead to a
statement of "Don't use Dynamic Credentials" ?
I am involved in a Forms to ADF application, and Dynamic Credentials
was one of the very first things I implemented.
Very interested.
Howie
Andreas Leidner
yes, we plan to do this by ourselves. We've got a first proof of
concept running using ADF 11.1.1.4 + Forms 10gR2 but plan to migrate
Forms to 11g to make integration easier.
Regards
Andreas
On Mar 24, 2:56 pm, poelger <Gert.P...@iadvise.be> wrote:
> Andreas,
>
> are you going to write this forms-ADF integration yourself?
> ?
Aziz Acar
--
Mukesh Kesa
Hi Aziz Acar,
Thanks for your posting. This is most beneficial to us that are sitting with 100s of Oracle forms programs to be converted.
I like the “lipstick on the pig” phrase. At this point in time we favour the idea of calling ADF pages (form those programs converted to ADF) from our Oracle forms menu driver. This we thought will allow us to convert to ADF in a phased approach.
Regards
Mukesh
Steven Davelaar
There is a sophisticated third party product called OraFormsFaces that is doing exactly what you are looking for: it allows you two embed Forms in ADF apps, and allows for two-way communication between the form and ADF app.
More info: http://www.commit-consulting.com/oraformsfaces/
Regards,
Steven.
On 23/03/2012 02:17, Aziz Acar wrote:
Hi Olivier,�
Apologies for the extremely late response but non-disclosure constraints prevented me from answering effectively when this post was originally started.
But I can talk now and for what it's worth will try to answer some of the questions.
You are right on the money as far as others in the same boat.
�
A couple of years I decided to tackle this problem of "we have 1200 forms that we need to transform to ADF pages" and was thinking "there's got to be a better way!".So I thought probably the easiest and most efficient method (BANG-FOR-YOUR-BUCK approach) was to have one single jspx page with an iFrame that would host all/any form in the way of an Oracle applet. So instead of writing a jspx page to represent each oracle form I would only use one iFrame to dynamically load any oracle form applet.
It looked like lipstick on a pig in some respects because the pages still for the most part looked like they contained Oracle Form controls (b/c they did). I didn't try to hide it, as I said it was about BANG FOR YOUR BUCK! Our users just wanted a single place to access all the pages rather than flicking from forms to browser and back again and again and again. And this solution provided that requirement in an extremely cost-effective way.
�
That being said there were a few serious issues that required working through:
�1. Security, using legacy_lifecycle=true�(attribute defined either in URL or in oracle formsweb.cfg file) will cause same forms session to be used for each form load. Hence you only need to log into forms session once for the first form. HOWEVER this will only apply if and only if the applet url is the same. Therefore you need a landing page (the same url that will use the same session) that will then route you to the actual page you meant to open.�
2. Oracle form applet, the applet name needs to be set in the formsweb.cfg file. This will be the DOM id (even though the formsweb.cfg implies 'name') used for acquiring the applet element.
�
3. iFrame cross-domain security. There is an intentional blockage of Javascript access to iFrame contents for obvious security reasons. However if the DOM document.domain value for the housing iFrame and the applet are the same (or compatible) then you can get a hook to the applet DOM element. What this means is that if your oracle applet server and 11g App Server are hosted by the same domain then document.getElementById(<applet_name>); will work otherwise you get security breach exception.
�
Also please note that on Firefox document.domain = <host>:<port number> whereas on IE it equals <host> only (no port number).
�
4. Assuming you work all that out and finally get a handle of your forms applet here is how you could communicate with your form:
�
var oracle_forms_applet_node = document.getElementById(<applet_name>);oracle_forms_applet_node.raiseEvent(<eventName>, <eventValue>);
�
This will invoke the form's (whichever one happens to be open) WHEN-CUSTOM-JAVASCRIPT-EVENT trigger. This trigger is new to 11g and is editable via whatever tool you use to develop your forms (in my case FormsBuilder). That trigger may then process these passed parameters via :SYSTEM.JAVASCRIPT_EVENT_NAME and :SYSTEM.JAVASCRIPT_EVENT_VALUE. Do with these values what you will based on your own defined protocol.
�
5. As for sharing transaction through mix of both technologies, I never went there, transactions were isolated within each form and never shared across any called ADF page.
Hope this helps.
�
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 6:10 PM, Olivier MARTIN <mrs.o...@cma-cgm-systems.com> wrote:
Hello everybody,
In my company, we have successfully developed our first standalone ADF 11g application. This application was just a pilot project for ADF.
Our main application is� an 9 years Oracle Forms application (version 10g)
Our challenge is to migrate progressively old modules and developped new one with ADF.
We can't do a big bang scenario, developping from scratch the whole system.
Questions regarding such migration for us are:
* security (authentication and authorization) strategy to adopt
* how to implement communication between ADF and Forms (Screens flows, user context's share, parameters)
* how to mix visually Forms and ADF screens inside the same browser to show a unique application
* Is it possible to share a transaction through a mix of technology.
I think we are not the only one company with such needs and a real strategy of migration is something important for many client in order to adopt ADF as their new strategy.
I guess if some of you have some experience feedbacks, best practices or methodology for such migration project.
Best regards
Olivier
--
Olivier MARTIN
JEE Architect� - Industrialisation
CMA CGM SYSTEMS
Siege Social : 4, Quai d'Arenc, 13002 Marseille
Forme juridique : S.A
RCS Marseille 493 732 713
Capital Social : �10.000.800
SIREN/SIRET : 493 732 713 00018
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�
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Lakshminarayanan Narasimhan
thanks. I will use it and post my feed back...
On Mar 23, 12:02 pm, Steven Davelaar <steven.davel...@oracle.com>
wrote:
> Olvier, Aziz,
> There is a sophisticated third party product called OraFormsFaces that
> is doing exactly what you are looking for: it allows you two embed Forms
> in ADF apps, and allows for two-way communication between the form and
> ADF app.
>
> More info:http://www.commit-consulting.com/oraformsfaces/
>
> Regards,
> Steven.
>
> On 23/03/2012 02:17, Aziz Acar wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Olivier,
> > constraints prevented me from answering effectively when this post was
> > originally started.
>
> > But I can talk now and for what it's worth will try to answer some of
> > the questions.
>
> > You are right on the money as far as others in the same boat.
> > forms that we need to transform to ADF pages" and was thinking
> > "there's got to be a better way!".
> > So I thought probably the easiest and most efficient method
> > (BANG-FOR-YOUR-BUCK approach) was to have one single jspx page with an
> > iFrame that would host all/any form in the way of an Oracle applet. So
> > instead of writing a jspx page to represent each oracle form I would
> > only use one iFrame to dynamically load any oracle form applet.
>
> > It looked like lipstick on a pig in some respects because the pages
> > still for the most part looked like they contained Oracle Form
> > controls (b/c they did). I didn't try to hide it, as I said it was
> > about BANG FOR YOUR BUCK! Our users just wanted a single place to
> > access all the pages rather than flicking from forms to browser and
> > back again and again and again. And this solution provided that
> > requirement in an extremely cost-effective way.
> > through:
> > be used for each form load. Hence you only need to log into forms
> > session once for the first form. HOWEVER this will only apply if and
> > only if the applet url is the same. Therefore you need a landing page
> > (the same url that will use the same session) that will then route you
> > to the actual page you meant to open.
> > formsweb.cfg file. This will be the DOM id (even though the
> > formsweb.cfg implies 'name') used for acquiring the applet element.
> > Javascript access to iFrame contents for obvious security reasons.
> > However if the DOM document.domain value for the housing iFrame and
> > the applet are the same (or compatible) then you can get a hook to the
> > applet DOM element. What this means is that if your oracle applet
> > server and 11g App Server are hosted by the same domain then
> > document.getElementById(<applet_name>); will work otherwise you get
> > security breach exception.
> > number> whereas on IE it equals <host> only (no port number).
> > forms applet here is how you could communicate with your form:
> > oracle_forms_applet_node.raiseEvent(<eventName>, <eventValue>);
> > WHEN-CUSTOM-JAVASCRIPT-EVENT trigger. This trigger is new to 11g and
> > is editable via whatever tool you use to develop your forms (in my
> > case FormsBuilder). That trigger may then process these passed
> > parameters via :SYSTEM.JAVASCRIPT_EVENT_NAME and
> > :SYSTEM.JAVASCRIPT_EVENT_VALUE. Do with these values what you will
> > based on your own defined protocol.
> > never went there, transactions were isolated within each form and
> > never shared across any called ADF page.
>
> > Hope this helps.
>
>
> > Hello everybody,
>
> > In my company, we have successfully developed our first standalone
> > ADF 11g application. This application was just a pilot project for
> > ADF.
> > Our challenge is to migrate progressively old modules and
> > developped new one with ADF.
> > We can't do a big bang scenario, developping from scratch the
> > whole system.
>
> > Questions regarding such migration for us are:
> > * security (authentication and authorization) strategy to adopt
> > * how to implement communication between ADF and Forms (Screens
> > flows, user context's share, parameters)
> > * how to mix visually Forms and ADF screens inside the same
> > browser to show a unique application
> > * Is it possible to share a transaction through a mix of technology.
>
> > I think we are not the only one company with such needs and a real
> > strategy of migration is something important for many client in
> > order to adopt ADF as their new strategy.
>
> > I guess if some of you have some experience feedbacks, best
> > practices or methodology for such migration project.
>
> > Best regards
>
> > Olivier
>
> > --
> > Olivier MARTIN
> > CMA CGM SYSTEMS
> > Siege Social : 4, Quai d'Arenc, 13002 Marseille
> > Forme juridique : S.A
> > RCS Marseille 493 732 713
> > Capital Social : �10.000.800
> > SIREN/SIRET : 493 732 713 00018
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>
> --
>
> Steven Davelaar| Consulting Solutions Architect
> Oracle Webcenter | FMW Architecture Team (A-Team)
> A-Team Webcenter Blog <https://blogs.oracle.com/ATEAM_WEBCENTER/> |
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