Frameworks - ADF, Seam and Spring

[GeneAndJenelle]

Hi,

We've been working with ADF for some time now, and have extensive
experience with what it allows us to do. However, at the moment we're
being asked to compare it with the "cheaper" frameworks and technology
stacks such as Seam and Spring.

Has anyone gone through this exercise, or got any information/
documentation on key areas of difference that may be useful when
discussing comparisons between these 3 frameworks?

For example, ADF can adopt a more declarative approach to development
than I believe the others do.

Regards

Gene

[Chris Muir]

I guess in answering this, to firstly focus on ADF BC vs the ORM
solutions in the other frameworks (which predominately is EJB/JPA as
far as I can tell), is your team made up of experienced Forms and
relational Oracle veterans, or cunning and devious Java ninjas?

Oracle veterans will prefer and be more productive in the declarative
relational style of ADF BC, while Java ninjas will prefer EJB/JPA. So
part answer to your question is not which one is best overall ignoring
skillsets, but which one is best suited to your existing team? Make
the wrong choice and you'll have expensive exercises in rehiring and
training, as well as the lost time in learning and redeveloping with
the new technology. I heard there's lots of Java programmers in
Brazil, but no so in Perth ;-)

Anybody else want to chime in?

CM.

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[grant....@oracle.com]

You might also argue that having one end to end framework (e.g. adf) means less integration, support, license headaches than cobbling together three or four different frameworks.
Just a thought.
Sent from my HTC

[shay shmeltzer]

Seam does target the same issues as ADF (specifically JSF based UI and binding layer), but I believe ADF is more complete and also has technical advantages.

Here are some technical points that I think make ADF better than SEAM:

•  First of all ADF has a much better development experience - we are much more visual and declarative with JDeveloper - SEAM is code centric - all their tooling is at the coding level - no visual or declarative development capabilities.
• A richer set of Ajax enabled JSF components - ADF Faces has more components and better interaction and capabilities compared to rich faces which is used by SEAM. (for example our DVT components - graphs, maps, gauges, calendar, gantt)
• ADF Task flows - a simpler solution for defining process flow in your application that don't require a full jbpm solution like seam does. 
• Taskflows also offer reusability of flows in page regions which is something that is not available in SEAM.
• ADF has End to end security solution - allowing you to secure everything from the DB access to the UI layer
• Declarative customization - our MDS solution and the runtime and design time customization it does - no equivalent in SEAM.
• Mobile - ADF has specific solution for mobile development with both ADF faces and ADF Mobile Browser - and soon the native on device ADF Mobile - all are extensions of the core ADF.
• ADF Desktop Integration - Excel front ends to ADF backend - no equivalent in SEAM.
• ADF Business Components - provide much more functionality out of the box for accessing the database than JPA. And align more closely with the way traditional 4gl developers are thinking. Note that ADF also supports JPA/EJB like seam does.
• WebCenter Portal integration
• SOA Suite/BPM Suite integration
• BI EE integration

As for cost - ADF is free if you have a WLS license - it only costs money if you want to deploy on other servers.
However for tooling JDeveloper (and OEPE which also supports a large part of ADF) are free - Jboss has a simple tooling that is free - but their more complete tooling - JBoss Developer Studio - will cost you $99 per developer.

[D0natas]

Continuing the discussion i would bring a second aspect to compare:

- the Flow

The order express my current (subjective) "ranking" considering
features, design-time and runt-time support for it:

1. ADF - task flow , 2. Spring -web flow, 3. Seam - conversation ?

Donatas

2012/1/25 Chris Muir <chris...@gmail.com>:

[Rob Nocera]

Grant and Chris make excellent points. This is actually the topic of
a talk that I am co-presenting at RMOUG in Denver next month. Not
Seam or Spring specifically but comparing the ADF Stack to another
"cheaper" stack we used in a forms conversion for a customer. That
stack includes Struts 2, Spring, and Hibernate. Having done
modernizations to both types of Java frameworks, all I can really say
is that it depends.

The more I use ADF and JDeveloper the more I dread going back to
Eclipse and some of these other frameworks because it seems like you
have to do a lot just to build up a framework that can do a lot of
what ADF already does. Sure, Struts, Spring, and Hibernate do a lot
for you, but integrating them in a fashion to make building an
application as easy as the ADF stacke makes it takes a lot of effort.

The comparison to me seems to be productivity vs. cost. If you favor
productivity, especially if you already have experience with ADF, it
is the better choice. If you favor cheaper licensing costs, go with
that. Keep in mind, however, licensing costs are only part of the
"cost" of the framework. Productivity gains can more than make up for
that.

-Rob

[Mark Robinson]

Chris brings up some good points about what your current is composed of.  I would say it also depends on how deep into your company is.  If your company is very heavily tied to Oracle DB/WLS then you might not end up saving much money by moving to a cheaper framework.  On the other hand, if your company is ambivalent or you're selling to companies who are ambivalent, then the $50K/Processor cost of a license can go a long ways to other priorities.

It's also a question of the technical community surrounding the framework.  I'd say the free frameworks have  better, more responsive communities on sites like StackOverflow whereas ADF is pretty thin on those sorts of sites.  You can also speak with the dev community on the mailing lists and, hey, source code.  The downside is the documentation might not be as comprehensive as ADF, although Oracle isn't perfect either (see missing ADF-DVT javadoc).

Mark

[grant....@oracle.com]

Hi Mark a few quick points, just to be clear, adf isn't $50k I think you will find that's wls suite. I'd also point out the adf community is very active through other channels like otn. So point taken its less active in some communities but you'll get good support on otn. Finally, as a supported customer you also get free access to the adf source code.
Hope that helps.

Sent from my HTC

----- Reply message -----
From: "Mark Robinson" <ma...@mrobinson.ca>
To: <adf-met...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [ADF EMG] Frameworks - ADF, Seam and Spring

[hasim]

ADF is more Application Dev Framework and good for customer who has forms/report setup already.
If you have Forms/Report to be converted then i will recommend only ADF as best choice to reduce
the development time not Cost.

However , if you are developing new custom product then comes lot of technical aspects like Number of
User that will be using ADF Application concurrently. Honestly , we have real experience
that if number of Users increases you have to buy new expensive CPU License of WLS and then Buy Cluster License
and cost can GO ON and ON until it is too late to think.  Plus ADF Faces have out of  box component which may
not be adopted as standard in your company , so you have to develop your own JSF component. I dont know about
whether HTML5 is supported in ADF. Also ADF has lot of issue when it comes to inter browser compatibility.
Try running ADF in multiple browser and experience the shock. 

Biggest issue that we have faced is ADF Activation/Passivation done in PS_TXN is not working at all , it is broken.
We had the very big issue using locking feature in ADF since Activate/Passivation in ADF is not working.

I have also worked with EJB which seems to be only best choice for BC in java world. I have developed EJB application
with charm with hit of 1 Million per minutes , I doubt ADF BC can survive even 10,000 Hit with same server configuration.
ADF is good for few 100 or 1000 users and consider it more as Intranet application framework not internet framework.

This is pure honest suggestion with my own experience with high end project.

Thanks,
Hasim

[Mark Robinson]

Hi Grant,

It's true that ADF isn't $50K, but it's only officially supported on WLS which is not cheap.  I agree that the ADF community is very much alive but can't help but compare to other communities.  As an example Doug Clarke, the oracle employee responsible for EclipseLink, hangs out on StackOverflow and helps answer questions.

I wouldn't agree that ADF could be considered source available.  You can get the source but it's under a look-but-don't-touch license which I'm sure should really count.

Mark

[Chris Muir]

Thought I'd check some details:

1) ADF is also certified & supported on WebSphere 7 - http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/jdev/jdev11gr2-cert-405181.html#Application_Servers

2) Single processor WLS Standard Edition price with no deals is US$10k + US$2.2k support (or US$200 per named user with a minimum of 10 + presumably same support cost) - I believe this represents the minimum cost for deploying ADF 11g - https://shop.oracle.com/pls/ostore/f?p=dstore:product:4495575221163057::NO:RP,6:P6_LPI,P6_PROD_HIER_ID:4509679181591805719976,4509884312651805720003

3) The JDev/ADF OTN forum since its upgrade a couple years ago has ~91k threads, ~340k messages.
Oracle's own Frank Nimphius has scored in this time ~12k points for that forum alone since the OTN Forums upgrade, providing at least ~1200 correct answers (or maximum ~6000 helpful answers) as voted & validated by other forum members.  This is not to forget John's, Timo's, Shay's and others' contributions.

From what I can see Doug Clarke has been a member of StackOverflow for ~1.5yrs & has accrued 355 points - http://stackoverflow.com/users/382137/doug-clarke?tab=summary

I'm happy to be corrected on any of the numbers above.

CM.

[Mark Robinson]

Hi Hasim,

Thanks for your input.  What sort of cross-browser issues did you encounter?  I found ADF was pretty decent on the whole.  I did find some points where I could burn days just making small things work right though.

Mark

[Mark Robinson]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the updates.

I'd heard that ADF was support on WebSphere.  I'm uncertain of the differences between supported and certified though.

Good to know about different prices for WLS.  The Oracle online store isn't that user-friendly to navigate.

I suppose a meaningful question is what is the relative quality between SO and OTN.  I have to say that I find searching SO much easier than OTN. 

Mark

[Chris Muir]

Hi Mark

On addressing the difference between certification & supported, this is as follows:

"In this document, the term Certified is used to denote a configuration that is tested in house by the Quality Assurance team. The term Supported indicates a configuration that has not been fully tested, but that Oracle believes to be functional. In both cases, customers may log bugs with Oracle Support, and the development team will evaluate them and fix them if feasible."

See: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/jdev/jdev11gr2-cert-405181.html

While I'm not an Oracle employee (yet) even Larry Elison has joked at OOW no customer has paid full price for an Oracle product (and if you have, well, better luck next time ;-). My opinion this is especially true of houses that are heavily invested in Oracle products ... salesmen are known to cut good deals for buying in bulk.

As for SO vs OTN, while I understand the preference for SO, I also understand the need to not split the "go-to" location for help as it becomes difficult for some people to know where to go & makes it difficult for Oracle staff to cover all locations. As example this group itself pollutes the informal ADF support line & we've always been keen to push people back to the forums for the how-do-we-get-this-to-work sort of questions.

However in saying this there's no reason a person such as yourself can't start the ADF push on StackOverflow (if not already). I know personally as I see relatively little ADF content on SO I don't visit it. Yet if there was active participation I would change my behavior.

Of course all this is off topic. Anybody more comments on ADF vs Seam vs Spring?

Regards,

[grant ronald]

Hi Mark, I see Chris has responded to your points, and while it can
sometimes be a delicate task to correct users assertions (however
genuine) on a public forum - its important we address these. What might
also be valuable is to get your feedback on why you were maybe less
aware of the work we do on OTN. You are not alone in missing the value
of specific content/collateral/forums on locations like OTN and what
would be valuable to us is understanding why that value is being missed.
Maybe with your background SO is THE place to hang out, in which case,
how could we better promote the value of OTN to you (and those of a
similar background). Similarly, knowing where to find core information
to make decisions on ADF whether those be pricelists support/source code
or anything.

I hope this doesn't come over as we're picking you up on your answers
;o) but I'm genuinely interested in giving the ADF community the
information/skills they need and how we can better deliver this.

Maybe worth kicking off a new thread if you have some ideas on
promoting/positioning valuable ADF information or feel free to email me
off DL and I can collate your feedback.

thanks

> <mailto:ma...@mrobinson.ca>> wrote:
> > Hi Grant,
> >
> > It's true that ADF isn't $50K, but it's only officially supported
> on WLS which is not cheap. I agree that the ADF community is very
> much alive but can't help but compare to other communities. As an
> example Doug Clarke, the oracle employee responsible for
> EclipseLink, hangs out on StackOverflow and helps answer questions.
> >
> > I wouldn't agree that ADF could be considered source available.
> You can get the source but it's under a look-but-don't-touch license
> which I'm sure should really count.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 1:28 PM, grant....@oracle.com

> <mailto:grant....@oracle.com> <grant....@oracle.com

> <mailto:adf-methodology%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> >
> > All content to the ADF EMG lies under the Creative Commons
> Attribution 3.0 Unported License
> (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/). Any content sourced
> must be attributed back to the ADF EMG with a link to the Google
> Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology).
> >
> > --
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> >
> > All content to the ADF EMG lies under the Creative Commons
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[grant ronald]

Hi Hasim, I'm assuming you are aware of the browser certifications
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/jdev/index-091111.html#Browsers
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/jdev/jdev11gr2-cert-405181.html#Browsers

If you are finding issues with any certified browsers can you please
ensure you log a bug so we can address these. One of the features of a
framework like ADF is protecting your developers from the myriad of
difference in the underlying technologies such as browsers. There may
be the odd issue but I've not see this is a wholesale issue for
certified browsers (I did see something recently where layout got messed
but that was due to CSS corruption)

I'm also hoping you've been able to log a bug on the
activation/passivation. I'm not aware of any customers reporting this
and had a quick chat to our Support people and they didn't see any hot
escalated issues on this major feature not working. (Thats not to say
they may not be bugs logged against the feature but it doesn't seem to
be wholesale failing).

thanks

> *ADF is good for few 100 or 1000 users and consider it more as Intranet
> application framework not internet framework.*

>
> This is pure honest suggestion with my own experience with high end project.
>
> Thanks,
> Hasim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 3:28 PM, grant....@oracle.com

> <mailto:grant....@oracle.com> <grant....@oracle.com

> <mailto:grant....@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark a few quick points, just to be clear, adf isn't $50k I think
> you will find that's wls suite. I'd also point out the adf community
> is very active through other channels like otn. So point taken its
> less active in some communities but you'll get good support on otn.
> Finally, as a supported customer you also get free access to the adf
> source code.
> Hope that helps.
>
> Sent from my HTC
>
> ----- Reply message -----

> From: "Mark Robinson" <ma...@mrobinson.ca <mailto:ma...@mrobinson.ca>>
> To: <adf-met...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:adf-methodology%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

>
> All content to the ADF EMG lies under the Creative Commons
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> the Google Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology).
>
>
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[Saif Kamaal]

Activation/Passivation indeed is what i think is the black sheep which slows down the systems ..atleast in my case. Also a number of times i can see the VOs sql gettnig executing a number of times which again might be an issue in performance. Other than this i will rate ADF aboove SEAM.
On the other hand seam has a option ot create a basic CRUD page by readinging your DB tables which i surely fell should have been part of Jdev/ADF as the same functionality is provided in NetBeans.

All this on te top of my head ..as of now

~Saif Kamaal.

[Joe Greenwald]

Hi Chris,

I'm on SO as well:

http://stackoverflow.com/users/472883/joe

Oracle
Joe Greenwald | Principal Instructor 
ADF, SOA

ADF/SOA/OSB Links

Phone: main: +1 650.355.3501 cell: +1 415.599.6021
Pacifica, California
Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment

Theory <--> Practice 

[hasim]

Grant,

Thanks a lot , this is what i like about EMG where we get reply directly from Product manager to directors
to all sort of management from Oracle not forgetting Oracle Champs ACE like CM , Andrejus , Edwind.
Hat's off. I skeptical that  we can get same reach any where else.

Here is meta link that we have filed with Oracle.

SR 3-5146099611: JBO-28030: Could not insert row into PS_TXN

Second we have to disabled passivation completely from our product and enabled virtual memory + db connection pooling.
i.e.

We have disabled PS_TXN passivation for all AM's and enabled virtual memory storage + DB connection pooling.

This will keep DB connections to minimum. Also, there should not be any performance implications for large SQL's.

it works pretty well - PS_TXN errors were eliminated. And is recommended by Steve Muench as well.

Reference :- http://andrejusb.blogspot.com/2011/11/stress-testing-oracle-adf-bc_16.html

I will update about browser issue in next email and also , some of our customer use OPERA which is
not supported by ADF and we cant force our customer to use some other browser , but still we are trying
to convince them. Also , now a days users are accessing application on IPAD - SAFARI and it too
create issue and our app. is developed on Webcenter Portal + ADF. We are using webcente portal
navigation model menu item to point to ADF taskflow.

Thanks
Hasim

[Manoj kottam]

My two cents:
The main differentiating factors for me to go for a specific framework:
1. What app servers my enterprise already owns?
If my enterprise has already invested in IBM and has a future state built on WebSphere, then even if ADF is certified and supported for WebSphere, I would not go with ADF.

2. How is the community support?
Spring and Seam have a large install base , but ADF is picking up. Thanks to Oracle for eating their own dog food :)

3. How flexible is the client with UI requirements?
Most of the times before you begin development, client would have some level of expectations from the UI via wireframes, be it drag and drop, ajax loading, beautiful skinning/styling etc..
Spring is inherently flexible as it follows the jsp standard and you can achieve 100% matching applications.
ADF on the other hand is a component based approach (JSF) and might not give you that flexibility.

4. How transparent are Framework Upgrades?
I cannot talk to Spring or Seam as I have limited experience with them. But with ADF it has been a pain point. 10g to 11g to 11gR1 (and most definitely to 12c). Every time migration is a 30 to 40% rewrite of the code.
10g ADF view is dumb. 11g showed a major improvement in the UI, but 10g code migration was a nightmare. 11.1.2 was released with the support for facelets. But I couldn't find a migration/conversion path for migrating 11g jspx bsed pages to facelets. This open world Oracle promised a lot of new enhancements, optimized life cycles, possible html5 rendering, but not sure how the migration will be.

5. How is my project Implementation budget?
Most of the times more than the licensing, its the development of the project that eats up the major chunk. So its very important to consider this tradeoff. If you have tight budget and limited timeline, ADF is undoubtedly the best option out there. If time and resources are not a constraint, any other framework will beat the ADF framework in performance by a considerable margin.

The above comments are purely out of personal knowledge (or may be lack of :)).

-Manoj