Desktop and Mobile Development

[Tapash Ray]

I am trying to revive this old thread on the topic in subject. 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/adf-methodology/2ncOzi1IkeI/hdn483D6lyYJ

Coming from SI partner background, I am seeing lot of traction in this area - most people want their application to 

1. Run on browsers accros devices when they have internet - most people with a desk job in office or home.

2. Run on Devices as a standalone application with offline database connectivity, and auto sync when they get their devices hooked up on internet - most sales or field service people.

#1 above is fairly simple and ADF does it well, most people want to adopt and leverage ADF because of lot of reasons ranging from "single vendor offering" to "comes free with Weblogic" to "already have Oracle stack".

When customers want their SI partners to implement #2, the challenge begins - we start looking at options 

1. ADF swing ? relatively old idea from technology perspective, and then the issue of where to get the offline database from etc, then the pain of justifying google gears and adobe AIR and silverlight etc etc.. and the conversation goes another way.

2. ADF mobile ? works on iPhone and android, has offline database, but does not work on desktop

So the question is - is there something that we can do to make these customers happy in the long term, like telling them that Oracle ADF has plans of suporting this by ... , and then what do we do in the interim ? 

Thanks,

Tapash

[Shay Shmeltzer]

If the requirement in #2 is just ability to work offline but the device is still a regular PC, you could go with a regular ADF Web solution all the way.
When the user is not connected to the server, you can run Glassfish+Oracle XE for free on his machine and still have the same ADF application working locally without accessing the remote server.

Shay

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[Tapash Ray]

Hi Shay,

That is a workable solution, but not likely to sell very well  - practical reasons 

1. Maintenance overhead - No customer wants to have their IT team resolving tickets to bring up and down servers/databases on local machines. Imagine large enterprises with a large sales/service force, I am talking of more than 2000 people worldwide.

2. Resource overhead - It is not easy to have a standard corporate image (with different OS) and push these servers (apps + DB) within the image 

I know there is nothing ADF can offer for now, but this is something Oracle should think of and it will add another feather in the ADF cap.

This is the third client in recent times who wants this kind of a solution. Of course, the world is moving to everything on the internet with Chrome OS and cloud and all, but somehow businesses run the other way round, especially in countries where internet speed is either not as good as it is in the US or they have upload/download limits etc. So, the desktop version of applications and word processors and operating systems will still have to be around. 

Thanks,

Tapash

---

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 16:00:27 -0800
From: shay.sh...@oracle.com
To: adf-met...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ADF EMG] Desktop and Mobile Development

[Tapash Ray]

Hi Shay,

And.. if this was done for ADF mobile (there was a need I am sure), why not for desktops ?

From your other thread - 

"

Just to clarify - ADF Mobile does come with a local DB that can be used on the mobile device - it is SQLite, and this allows you to store data and use the application offline.

"
Thanks,

Tapash

---

From: tra...@outlook.com
To: adf-met...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [ADF EMG] Desktop and Mobile Development
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 18:50:01 -0600

[Chris Muir]

Hi Tapash

If your need is for a desktop solution, then unless you're happy with
our ADF Swing offering (which admittedly is marked as
due-to-be-deprecated), or Oracle Forms (obviously not ADF), then I
suggest the Oracle ADF solution set isn't for you based on the
requirements you describe here.

We don't discount the need for desktop solutions, but, Oracle with ADF
took a fundamental shift to web based solutions from client-server some
years ago and it is core to our ADF server based offerings. As such
we're not looking (what we consider to be) backwards to desktop (Swing?)
solutions and retrofitting them with solutions required for the mobile
space.

While I wont discount a one-size-fits-all solution in the future, at the
moment the ADF platform is what it is today. A key opportunity we see
for consultants and SIs is to understand the different ADF platform
solutions Oracle provides and advising customers on which is best for
their current requirements.

I'm sure you've more to add, but without attempting to be rude, telling
Oracle what-to-do on an ADF EMG thread wont change the dominant IT
strategies decided by the Oracle executive.

Thanks & regards,

CM.

On 9/11/12 9:01 AM, Tapash Ray wrote:
> Hi Shay,
> And.. if this was done for ADF mobile (there was a need I am sure), why
> not for desktops ?
> From your other thread -
> "
> Just to clarify - ADF Mobile does come with a local DB that can be used
> on the mobile device - it is SQLite, and this allows you to store data
> and use the application offline.
> "
> Thanks,
> Tapash

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> From: tra...@outlook.com
> To: adf-met...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [ADF EMG] Desktop and Mobile Development
> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 18:50:01 -0600
>
> Hi Shay,
> That is a workable solution, but not likely to sell very well -
> practical reasons
>
> 1. Maintenance overhead - No customer wants to have their IT team
> resolving tickets to bring up and down servers/databases on local
> machines. Imagine large enterprises with a large sales/service force, I
> am talking of more than 2000 people worldwide.
>
> 2. Resource overhead - It is not easy to have a standard corporate image
> (with different OS) and push these servers (apps + DB) within the image
>
> I know there is nothing ADF can offer for now, but this is something
> Oracle should think of and it will add another feather in the ADF cap.
> This is the third client in recent times who wants this kind of a
> solution. Of course, the world is moving to everything on the internet
> with Chrome OS and cloud and all, but somehow businesses run the other
> way round, especially in countries where internet speed is either not as
> good as it is in the US or they have upload/download limits etc. So, the
> desktop version of applications and word processors and operating
> systems will still have to be around.
>
> Thanks,
> Tapash
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> <mailto:adf-methodolo...@googlegroups.com>

[Joe Huang]

Hi, Tapash, ADF Mobile does come with encrypted SQLite DB.  While most devices comes with a SQLite Engine, it is generally not encrypted.  We licensed the SQLite Encryption Extension and embedded into ADF Mobile, so you get encrypted DB support out of the box.

 

As for desktop support, what Shay is talking about is using Oracle XE or even SQLite/Berkeley DB as the local database.  SQLite and Berkeley DB are designed for mobile usage and has no maintenance overhead.  ADF + Glassfish + one of these lighter weight DB would be a viable disconnected mobile client.  Furthermore, you can use Oracle Database Mobile Server for database synchronization purposes, if your client DB is either SQLite or Berkeley DB.  Oracle Database Mobile Server is used in Oracle applications and also externally by customers, and would be a viable solution for PCs.  We are also considering that for ADF Mobile support, but due to lack of platform support we can’t quite integrate the two yet.

 

One last point – I agree that disconnected laptop client still have many use cases, but as we move forward to develop new products, we have to look ahead.  The trend is moving toward tablets (Android and iPad) that would replace laptop as a rich mobile client device, because they are much more portable and suited for mobile users.  Our resources is limited and it takes time to build products, so we have to place the future ahead of the past.  One point of convergence could be Windows 8 and JavaSE.  Once ADF Mobile converse to JavaSE, then we will have the same JVM that runs on laptops and tablets/smartphones.  We can then unify the framework to support both types of devices.  This however will take time.

 

So in the short term, your best bet is what Shay described.

 

Thanks,

 

Joe Huang

Senior Principal Product Manager

Mobile Application Development Framework

Oracle Application Development Tools

ORACLE

650-506-2271 (Office)

510-282-0369 (Mobile)

 

Check Oracle MEAP, Blogs (for latest updates), and Demos (Hint: open on your mobile phone)

[Tapash Ray]

Hi Chris,

I apologize if I sounded like I was preaching to the choir, I certainly am not in a position to tell Oracle what to do. At one time, I was developing products at Oracle, so I understand the due diligence that gets done to decide what goes into the product and what not.

I was trying to get ideas from the wisdom of the group to solve issues that might prevent customers from uptaking ADF as technology of choice, I would not like that to happen. ADF Swing it is for now  

Thanks,

Tapash

> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 09:26:10 +0800
> From: chris...@gmail.com

[Joe Huang]

Hi, Tapash, I don’t think we can recommend ADF Swing because there is virtually no future for it, and the UI you will end up with will not be ideal. 

 

Thanks,

 

Joe Huang

Senior Principal Product Manager

Mobile Application Development Framework

Oracle Application Development Tools

ORACLE

650-506-2271 (Office)

510-282-0369 (Mobile)

 

Check Oracle MEAP, Blogs (for latest updates), and Demos (Hint: open on your mobile phone)

 

[Tapash Ray]

Thanks Joe,
I agree with you, but then having a offline desktop version is a make or break deal for the client. They have a huge sales force on the road and they need this capability, I would hate to see ADF not getting implemented in this otherwise completely Oracle shop. What other options can I pursue to address this ?

 

---

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 17:52:34 -0800
From: JOE....@ORACLE.COM

[Arun]

Tapash,

Have you considered using ADF Desktop Integration? It provides you the capability of sharing the business logic between the web app and your desktop (MS Excel) and also the offline support.

-Arun

[Mark Robinson]

Tetherable cell phones with a generous data package?

Mark

[Chad Thompson]

On Nov 8, 2012, at 8:16 PM, Tapash Ray <tra...@outlook.com> wrote:

Thanks Joe,
I agree with you, but then having a offline desktop version is a make or break deal for the client. They have a huge sales force on the road and they need this capability, I would hate to see ADF not getting implemented in this otherwise completely Oracle shop. What other options can I pursue to address this ? 

A few thoughts regarding offline / online:

1)  If you are going to have an 'offline' version of your application, it implies that you'll have a (likely) web services layer for communication between a desktop and a server app.  This really isn't fundamentally different than the mobile strategy - except with desktops you have a wider variety of choices and deployment options.  (And you can develop the entire services layer with ADF and/or Oracle SOA Suite in the same way you would create a backend for mobile devices.)

2)  To create the desktop client, it's probably best to determine what environments your apps will need to support and create a desktop app from there.  (You'll also have a choice of temporary data stores for syncing, etc.)  

If you want to stick with the "Java" stack, you can use:

1)  Swing - plain ol' Java Swing will be around for awhile.  (If not the ADF version)

2)  JavaFX - more lightweight than Swing.

3)  You could also create an 'app' that bundles Glassfish (or Tomcat) under the covers with a lightweight DB (MySQL?) that is completely driven using ADF Essentials.

I recall doing this a few times with apps that needed to be 'offline' yet were adapted from a server side app - we took the code, scripted a little app that would launch all of the appropriate servers, etc. (not running as native services) and pop open a browser window as the app interface.  There's an obvious tradeoff here - while packaging is similar to packaging a server app, it was always confusing to users that the 'app' didn't look/feel like a desktop app (it was also considerably slower to start) and the web browser environment running 'locally' was always baffling.  A browser and desktop experience can have different expectations.

Or, you can also create a 'native' (.NET, Mono/GTK, etc.) app that syncs with the web service layer in the same way that companies like Evernote (http://evernote.com)  have created many native clients to access a shared set of services for syncing that also allow you to work offline.

There's quite a few options open to you - it's just that choosing desktop development environments can be more difficult than the typically "one way to deploy and develop" that web application frameworks give you.

- Chad