Trading System Lab (TSL)

[mandelmus]

Mike, how does Builder compare with the features in Trading System Lab
(TSL)? I noticed they also use a separate "in-sample", "validation"
and "out-of-sample" period. I'm not sure of the price, but read
comments that the price is about $60,000 per year + $20,000 annual
maintenance!! Makes me feel a lot better about the amount I spent on
Builder. :)

Ref: http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/introgeneticprograms.aspx

[enz]

Are these programs any different from AB?

Why do they cost so much comapred to AB?

[Wieland Sperr]

TSL is build on Discipulus( http://www.rmltech.com/),  it predicts the next bars in future. Adaptrade uses indicators und builds strategies from thouse. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I had a short look on the example systems of TSL and I'm sure you can create with patience systems with the same results or better. I'm not sure if the examples of TSL are for real trading. The system ES_DT 1 min has a very nice equity curve, but have a look on slipage and commision - would you trade this? Consider how much money you must make with your strategies of TSL to get the money back of TSL.

---

Von: enz <doj...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Feb 29, 2012 12:44:29 PM
An: adaptrad...@googlegroups.com
Betreff: Re: Trading System Lab (TSL)

[mandelmus]

Here's an excerpt from the pdf of ES_DT 1min ...
http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/tradingsystems.aspx

"Patterns and Indicators, the kind used to manually design Trading
Systems, are preprocessed into facts and used as the Trading System’s
basic genetic material, referred to as a Terminal Set. The Terminal
Set is combined at a very high rate with Functional operators, like
addition and multiplication and a Genetic Tournament progresses,
rapidly allowing an evolutionary process to occur. Trading Systems
that can survive, by for example, making a profit, are allowed to
survive while those Trading Systems that do not make a profit are
discarded. Usually, within about 50,000 Trading System productions, a
viable Trading System emerges. ... Typically TSL creates Trading
Systems with 3 to 10 parameters."

In another article on this site, TSL slams software that looks at
indicators (i.e., StrataSearch) and price patterns (i.e., Price Action
Lab (PAL, formerly APS)) but in this excerpt, they say TSL uses
"Patterns and Indicators". The remainder of the description sounds
just like Builder.

[mandelmus]

Looking at the TradeStation Performance Reports listed for their
Sample Systems, I just noticed that commissions and slippage were set
to $0 ... hhhmmm

[Wieland Sperr]

Yes, that was what I meant!  Look also the profit report. Result - Slippage - Commission,  Uppppps!

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: mandelmus <gmb...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Feb 29, 2012 5:28:56 PM
An: "Adaptrade Builder" <adaptrad...@googlegroups.com>

Betreff: Re: Trading System Lab (TSL)

>Looking at the TradeStation Performance Reports listed for their

[mandelmus]

I found this snippet that says "QANT [Pty Ltd] provides development
and support services for Trading System Lab for users of TradeStation,
MultiCharts, SierraCharts, and a number of other platforms." The rest
of the description sounds just like what Builder can do.

Ref: http://www.qant.com.au/automated-trading/trading-system-lab


Wieland, "Mein Hut der hat drei Ecken!"

[mandelmus]

Oh ya, here's the link to Discipulus page for TSL ...
http://www.rmltech.com/traders.aspx

On Feb 29, 6:46 am, "Wieland Sperr" <wsp...@web.de> wrote:

[Michael R. Bryant]

I'm pretty sure TSL uses Discipulus just as their genetic programming
engine. Last I looked into it, TSL wasn't based on predictive modeling of
any kind.

Mike Bryant

[mandelmus]

TSL's ability of finding multi-strategies of combinations of 3-4
overlapping strategies and EVORUN's feature of automatically finding
the best bar size, trade strategy, preprocessing setup all in short
amounts of time sound like some nice features.

How does their GP engine compare with the one we're using? Is there
engine really $58,500 better?!



On Feb 29, 1:44 pm, "Michael R. Bryant" <m...@BreakoutFutures.com>
wrote:

> I'm pretty sure TSL uses Discipulus just as their genetic programming
> engine. Last I looked into it, TSL wasn't based on predictive modeling of
> any kind.
>
> Mike Bryant
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: Trading System Lab (TSL)
>

> Oh ya, here's the link to Discipulus page for TSL ...http://www.rmltech.com/traders.aspx

>
> On Feb 29, 6:46 am, "Wieland Sperr" <wsp...@web.de> wrote:

> > TSL is build on Discipulus(http://www.rmltech.com/), it predicts the
> next bars in future.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Michael R. Bryant]

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Trading System Lab (TSL)

TSL's ability of finding multi-strategies of combinations of 3-4
overlapping strategies and EVORUN's feature of automatically finding
the best bar size, trade strategy, preprocessing setup all in short
amounts of time sound like some nice features.

I agree.

How does their GP engine compare with the one we're using? Is there
engine really $58,500 better?!

I developed my own, which means it's customized to the problem at hand,
rather than being general purpose. That also means I can update, improve,
and extend mine at any time.

[Wieland Sperr]

I don't understand the discussion about TSL. I'm very happy with Builder and made some very profitable strategies which I still trade since 6 month with my own money. Looking the equity curves from the strategies from the TSL website, Builder musten't hint.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "Michael R. Bryant" <m...@BreakoutFutures.com>
Gesendet: Mar 2, 2012 5:44:52 PM
An: adaptrad...@googlegroups.com
Betreff: RE: Trading System Lab (TSL)

[Rick]

Hello - Have you used TSL and any of the other programs? I tried a
demo of stratasearch a while ago but it caused my PC to hang and I
gave up. Maybe I did not have enough memory - I don't know. I also
tried in the past a demo of APS. I liked that program because of its
simplicity and speed. I thought they went out of business. Do you know
if PAL is the same as APS? Is anyone using it?


On Feb 29, 9:59 am, mandelmus <gmb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's an excerpt from the pdf of ES_DT 1min ...http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/tradingsystems.aspx

[Rick]

On Mar 4, 5:24 pm, Rick <rh4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello - Have you used TSL and any of the other programs? I tried a
> demo of stratasearch a while ago but it caused my PC to hang and I
> gave up. Maybe I did not have enough memory - I don't know. I also
> tried in the past a demo of APS. I liked that program because of its
> simplicity and speed. I thought they went out of business. Do you know
> if PAL is the same as APS? Is anyone using it?

I can now answer my question about PAL. After playing with a demo for
a couple of days, I think it is a different program from APS as far as
I can remember. The most interesting feature is the option of
identifying patterns that backtest profitable over many markets.

>
> On Feb 29, 9:59 am, mandelmus <gmb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Here's an excerpt from the pdf of ES_DT 1min ...http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/tradingsystems.aspx
>
> > "Patterns and Indicators, the kind used to manually design Trading
> > Systems, are preprocessed into facts and used as the Trading System’s
> > basic genetic material, referred to as a Terminal Set. The Terminal
> > Set is combined at a very high rate with Functional operators, like
> > addition and multiplication and a Genetic Tournament progresses,
> > rapidly allowing an evolutionary process to occur. Trading Systems
> > that can survive, by for example, making a profit, are allowed to
> > survive while those Trading Systems that do not make a profit are
> > discarded. Usually, within about 50,000 Trading System productions, a
> > viable Trading System emerges. ... Typically TSL creates Trading
> > Systems with 3 to 10 parameters."
>
> > In another article on this site, TSL slams software that looks at
> > indicators (i.e., StrataSearch) and price patterns (i.e., Price Action
> > Lab (PAL, formerly APS)) but in this excerpt, they say TSL uses
> > "Patterns and Indicators".  The remainder of the description sounds

> > just like Builder.- Hide quoted text -

[mandelmus]

My understanding is that PAL is a "new and improved" version of APS.
There was talk on the forums about some financial and/or development
challenges a few years ago which have since been resolved, perhaps
with new investment partners, etc.

Ref: http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-software/107654-price-action-lab.html

[Rick]

Thanks Mandelmus. I also think it is much improved from the old
program. Do you think there is a way to get AB to use the PAL output
to design systems? (Not my idea, I have read that in some other
forum).

On Mar 7, 10:56 am, mandelmus <gmb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that PAL is a "new and improved" version of APS.
> There was talk on the forums about some financial and/or development
> challenges a few years ago which have since been resolved, perhaps
> with new investment partners, etc.
>

> Ref:http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-software/107654-price-action-...

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[mandelmus]

My understanding is that PAL simply searches for recurring price
patterns that have, historically, produced consistent profits. This
is different from the way Builder searches for price patterns.
Builder uses genetic algorithms to discover price patterns (evolve
solutions) that might not be so clear or intuitive to figure out.
Recurring price patterns are pretty easy to find (there is an add-on
to StrataSearch that will partially replicate APS / PAL ...
http://www.stratasearch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=592), there is
no complex solution in how those patterns are discovered. This
approach can add diversity to your trading arsenal.

I can see using statistical analysis (like PAL) on Builder's results,
but I don't see how it would work the other way around. For example,
you could trade the equity curve of Builder's results using a
statistical approach, mean reversion, exhaustion, variance from moving
average, etc. Market System Analyzer (MSA) can help with some of
those. I see the two methods (Builder and PAL) as complimentary, not
as inputs, to one another. But, if you have an idea for how that
might work, please let us know.

[Rick]

On Mar 12, 12:43 am, mandelmus <gmb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that PAL simply searches for recurring price
> patterns that have, historically, produced consistent profits.  This
> is different from the way Builder searches for price patterns.
> Builder uses genetic algorithms to discover price patterns (evolve
> solutions) that might not be so clear or intuitive to figure out.
> Recurring price patterns are pretty easy to find (there is an add-on

> to StrataSearch that will partially replicate APS / PAL ...http://www.stratasearch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=592), there is

> no complex solution in how those patterns are discovered.  This
> approach can add diversity to your trading arsenal.

Thanks. I tried stratasearch with the add-on and it produced a series
of spurious correlations like c[1] > H[12] AND L[7] > H[1], for
example. Plus it froze my PC. It appears to be a naive rule
permutation program. I had to remove it from my PC because I got so
upset with it. That time I think it was selling for about $3,000 one-
time fee. Now it is selling for $30 a month. That figures...

>
> I can see using statistical analysis (like PAL) on Builder's results,
> but I don't see how it would work the other way around.  For example,
> you could trade the equity curve of Builder's results using a
> statistical approach, mean reversion, exhaustion, variance from moving
> average, etc.  Market System Analyzer (MSA) can help with some of
> those.  I see the two methods (Builder and PAL) as complimentary, not
> as inputs, to one another.  But, if you have an idea for how that
> might work, please let us know.
>
> On Mar 10, 11:17 am, Rick <rh4...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Thanks Mandelmus. I also think it is much improved from the old
> > program.  Do you think there is a way to get AB to use the PAL output
> > to design systems? (Not my idea, I have read that in some other

> > forum).- Hide quoted text -

[mandelmus]

What are the specs on your system, Rick?  Your computer seems to be crashing a lot. 

 

I've been using StrataSearch for a few months now (replicating the work of kevin_in_ga from the Stockfetcher.com forums) with some good results, but there is a learning curve and it takes days/weeks to discover promising groups of strategies.  Can't wait for them to produce an intra-day version.

[mandelmus]

I've been watching some more of the TSL demo videos and noticed that the developer "pre-processes" the data from within TradeStation using 62+ inputs.  It's possible that those 'inputs' are simply a basket of 62+ indicators like MACD, RSI, BollingerBands, WR, etc.  Builder can accept the same inputs from what I understand -- just have to figure out the correct parameter settings to use for each.

 

I also noticed that the developer doesn't always use the "validation" window (from the in-sample, validation, out-of-sample windows) in his demo models.  Maybe the validation is not so important ... hhhmmm.

 

Oh, props to Mike, when people ask for a demo of TSL software (which he does not offer), he refers them to Builder. :D

[Mark Knecht]

Have you actually managed to get a real response out of these guys? I
tried to contact them a year or two ago but never got any answers.
Their FAQ says things like 'Windows 7 installer is in expected early
2010' which suggested to me even a year ago that they weren't really
alive.

I agree that their product, at least on paper, looked interesting.

Cheers,
Mark

[mandelmus]

Herr Sperr, was ist "Builder musten't hint"?

[mandelmus]

Well, his responses are immediate (within 12 hours) via email and he has offered to talk with me on the phone.  What concerns me is that his email responses are self-aggrandizing; he claims his software is better than all other software in the world combined.  He says TSL is used by traders at big hedge-funds, etc, etc.  For the price he's asking and even with all its bells and whistles, based on the demo videos, TSL still has plenty of room for improvement -- at least based on my vision of what an ideal GP app should be able to do.

 

Over the years, I have created my own 'simple' neural strategies using PredictorXL and @Risk NeuralTools

http://www.analyzerxl.com/

http://www.palisade.com/neuraltools/

 

Actually, if we could just get Mike to add a 'few' more of TSL's 'big' features, I can easily see Builder becoming more powerful than TSL.

[Wieland Sperr]

Hi,

sorry, my english :). I mean mustn't hide.

---

Von: mandelmus <gmb...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: 13.03.2012 06:23:26
An: adaptrad...@googlegroups.com
Betreff: Re: Trading System Lab (TSL)

[Rick]

On Mar 13, 3:18 am, mandelmus <gmb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, his responses are immediate (within 12 hours) via email and he has
> offered to talk with me on the phone.  What concerns me is that his
> email responses are self-aggrandizing; he claims his software is better
> than all other software in the world combined.  He says TSL is used by
> traders at big hedge-funds, etc, etc.  For the price he's asking and even
> with all its bells and whistles, based on the demo videos, TSL still has
> plenty of room for improvement -- at least based on my vision of what an
> ideal GP app should be able to do.

TLS sounds like a very expensive curve-fitting software. Besides, its
main engine is commercially available. Mike has created his own engine
and that is an edge in itself for AB. The fact that there is no TSL
demo available is a good sign because it means the program is not
cracked and available to download for free. This is also a bit of
concern I have before parting with the money to purchase software. If
it is cracked then a few thousands of traders in Europe and Asia have
already exploited most of the edges it can generate, if it can
generate any. I guess the TSL author knows that nobody will spend that
amount of money if the software is available for free in a trading
forum. He is protecting his IP. For example, PAL is asking for
passport copies and proof of address. I was also told that if I decide
to purchase a lifetime license I will be asked to sign a contract.

> Over the years, I have created my own 'simple' neural strategies using

> PredictorXL and @Risk NeuralToolshttp://www.analyzerxl.com/http://www.palisade.com/neuraltools/

>
> Actually, if we could just get Mike to add a 'few' more of TSL's
> 'big' features, I can easily see Builder becoming more powerful than TSL.
>
>
>
> On Monday, March 12, 2012 5:26:18 PM UTC-5, LGTrader wrote:
> > Have you actually managed to get a real response out of these guys? I
> > tried to contact them a year or two ago but never got any answers.
> > Their FAQ says things like 'Windows 7 installer is in expected early
> > 2010' which suggested to me even a year ago that they weren't really
> > alive.
>
> > I agree that their product, at least on paper, looked interesting.
>
> > Cheers,

> > Mark- Hide quoted text -