GOD
Terry Ashworth
Forget Andre
There is no philosophical objection to trying to do it. The problem is that
NOBODY
has succeeded yet. Neither the theologians nor the philosophers. Not the
judeo-christian god nor any other god of history. And there are thousand of
them. So? Anybody who wants one or needs one has to do as everybody else; go
on pure faith!
André Forget
==========================================================
Terry Ashworth <Tdkmashworth50to...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:87evpu$ec4$1...@barcode.tesco.net...
oot_bop
Can you "prove" the existence of the moon to a blind man?
The blind man cannot see the moon. He also has no direct inference of
its existence in his daily life.
We are like the blind man. We cannot "see" God and we cannot perceive
the realm in which God dwells.
Can we prove the existence of God? No!
Is there "logic" to the existence of God? Yes!
--
§:-( oot_bop §:-)
REMOVE "spamfree." to email me!
oot...@alaskalife.net §:-( + Know?ost = §:-)
ICQ = 34292710 KnowPost.com = Ethmer
http://www.knowpost.com/index.php?nmrp=NjAzMw==
Don't forget: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
Forget Andre
Sorry, there is no logic to the existence of a god. If there is a logic, how
come the philosophers have never been able to prove the existence of a god
(choose the one you like).
Even worse. The philosophers have admitted for a long time that there is no
way of proving the existence of a god. The philosophers are the specialists
on the question of LOGIC!
The gods exist on faith! Nothing else!
André Forget
==============================================
oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
news:s9omggj...@corp.supernews.com...
=Ray=
#Terry Ashworth <Tdkmashworth50to...@tesco.net> wrote in message
#news:87evpu$ec4$1...@barcode.tesco.net...
#
#> Can the existence of God be proven?
#Dear Terry,
#
#There is no philosophical objection to trying to do it. The problem is that
#NOBODY
#has succeeded yet. Neither the theologians nor the philosophers. Not the
#judeo-christian god nor any other god of history. And there are thousand of
#them. So? Anybody who wants one or needs one has to do as everybody else; go
#on pure faith!
#
#André Forget
One thing he inevitably left out: God reveals himself to those who search
for Him with all their heart. God's existence is not a question for the
one who has experienced Him. Yes He exists. Prove it to you? Well, all I
can say is "Come and see." I can give you the scientific evidence, maybe
some theological philosophy, but none will satisfy until to you He proves
Himself; when you search for Him with all your heart.
=Ray=
Fr_Confessor
The short answer is "no, not scientifically, anyway."
Using what is generally considered scientific "proof," the existence of God can be neither proven nor disproven. The so-called "proofs" of God's existence are only reasons to believe, not "proofs."
Terry Ashworth <Tdkmashworth50to...@tesco.net> wrote in message news:87evpu$ec4$1...@barcode.tesco.net...
oot_bop
Andre,
Logic is not a proof! i never said that God could be "proved" by logic.
Yes, the "gods" exist on faith, nothing else.
But God can be accepted as a reality based upon logic. It is much more
logical to think that God (with or without evolution) is behind the creation
of that that is than it is to believe that everything happened solely by
chance.
i don't need to believe in God in order to enjoy life or have moral values,
but i choose to believe in God because God is a logical cause and the
reality we see is a logical effect of such a God.
The fact that philosophers AND scientists cannot prove the existence of God
does not restrict the ability of others to come to a logical conclusion that
there is a God.
Many things in life exist on faith and nothing else. A logical belief in
God can be one of them!
"Forget Andre" <a_fo...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:ja%m4.2046$HH2....@weber.videotron.net...
Forget Andre
Do the gods of the Hindu reveal themselves to those who search for them with
all their heart?
Did the gods of the Greeks reveal themselves to those who search for them
with all their heart?
Did the gods of the Romans reveal themselves to those who search for them
with all their heart?
Do the gods of any religions, all different all mutually exclusive, reveal
themselves to any one who search for them with all his heart?
Sure they do! It is all make believe!
André Forget
========================================================
=Ray= <rv...@lennon.csufresno.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.02.100020...@lennon.csufresno.edu...
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Forget Andre wrote:
#Terry Ashworth <Tdkmashworth50to...@tesco.net> wrote in
message
Forget Andre
It is illogical to multiply entities unnecessarily. To pose that the
universe needed a creator doesn't help. All the questions without answers
you think you have resolved by positing a god or gods have to be answered
again for the posited god or gods. See, they are unnecessary entity or
entities because they do not explain a single question. They, in fact,
complicate the subject.
André Forget
========================================================
oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
news:s9qj63e...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > "Terry Ashworth" <Tdkmashworth50to...@tesco.net> wrote in
> > > message news:87evpu$ec4$1...@barcode.tesco.net...
Mª Angeles Bertolin
la editorial humanitas.
Que trata de todos esos temas que se apartan de lo cotidiano, de un modo
serio y sin intención
de captar adeptos. Atentamente.
Mº Angeles Bertolin
http://www.eternidad2.com
Garvan Dwane
Its the same old recurring question.
Did God create 'man' or 'man' create God ?
We are heading (we are in) a time when proof is
necessary - faith is not enough
oot_bop
Garvan,
First, faith or belief is all one can have. God cannot be proved or
disproved by the mind or actions of man because man is limited to his own
concepts and reality which is not of the same concept and reality of God, so
only our own logic can guide us into an individual belief in or of God.
Second, in my view, it is not the same old recurring question of "Did
God create man or man create God?", but rather "Is God man or is man God?"
Because of my experiences, studies and conclusions, i tend to believe as
fact that God is man!
God is man in the same way that your fingers are you. If you separate
your fingers from your body, they still are you -- only detached. Granted,
in our physical reality they will die because of the detachment, but i don't
believe that in God's reality that such a detachment has any negative
consequence but instead affords God the ability to "experience" through a
multitude of Its parts at the same time.
My concept of God could be likened to a sponge. You can force a sponge
through a sieve so that it is separated into minute particles. Left in a
common medium, they contine to function as individual units yet eventually
gravitate back into the whole sponge.
By necessity, it is impossible to convey what God is by trying to
express God via the physical reality. God is beyond the concept of physical
reality yet God is physical reality. Until we are able to perceive in other
than the physical reality, we cannot comprehend, prove or disprove God. And
because of our limited reference points, we are limited to portraying God in
a maternal/paternal way with equivelant functions and reactions. How
limited we really are in our ability to comprehend God and God's reality.
"Garvan Dwane" <gdw...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:Kzko4.10131$J9....@news.indigo.ie...
Robert L. Johnson
I believe Einstein's theory of relativity predicted there are spaces in the
universe that don't have time. This would be eternal. If God & the universe are
eternal then there's no need for a creator of the Creator.
Thanks, Bob
http://www.deism.com
Forget Andre wrote:
> Dear Oot_bop,
>
> It is illogical to multiply entities unnecessarily. To pose that the
> universe needed a creator doesn't help. All the questions without answers
> you think you have resolved by positing a god or gods have to be answered
> again for the posited god or gods. See, they are unnecessary entity or
> entities because they do not explain a single question. They, in fact,
> complicate the subject.
>
> André Forget
> ========================================================
>
Forget Andre
The time of something or somebody travelling at high speed seems to slow
down for an observer not going at high speed. If something could go at the
speed of light or close to the speed of light the time would stop for the
observator. A clock inside the space vessel would seem to stop to the eye
of the outside observer. For the people inside everything would be as usual.
If the universe is eternal God is an unnecessary entity.
André Forget
====================================
Robert L. Johnson <b...@deism.com> wrote in message
news:38A375A1...@deism.com...
Carlyj
physics comes pretty close to explaining how something can seem to come out
of nothing. We always have to deal with the problem of how anything can be
first. If God needed someone to create him, then so did the someone who did
it. And on and on it goes. And if the universe could come into being
without a god, then so could that which we call, God.
Forget Andre
My thoughts exactly!!!!
André Forget
===================================
Carlyj <car...@tusco.net> wrote in message
news:qXcp4.2108$v74....@ord-read.news.verio.net...
Lev Lyubchenko
To clarify your statement on quantum physics: there is no such thing as a free
lunch. The virtual particles that you're thinking off arise due to the fact
that the epmty space that we call vaccuum is in fact a summation of energies
that equal zero. This does not mean that it IS zero, it means that if you take
a point in space, and integrate the energy in that point with the limits from
negative infinity to infinity, you will get zero. Its like a sine function
integrated from zero to two pi. Its not zero a zero function, but added up on
that limit it all goes down to zero.
Respectfully, Lev
oot_bop
You all are attempting to "prove" God and/or God's abilities by the
concepts of our existence -- by our concepts of matter and reality! WHAT IF
God's reality is outside of our concept of reality and matter? WHAT IF
God's reality allows God to insert "matter" into our concept of matter from
God's reality. That would be the first cause.
It is quite possible that God's reality does not need a first cause,
only our concept of our reality.
We can never "prove" God when we limit God to our concepts.
How foolish would you be should you choose to allow yourself to be
governed by the "concepts" and "realities" of a student in the first grade.
§:-( oot_bop §:-)
REMOVE "spamfree." to email me!
oot...@alaskalife.net §:-( + Know?ost = §:-)
ICQ = 34292710 KnowPost.com = Ethmer
http://www.knowpost.com/index.php?nmrp=NjAzMw==
Don't forget: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
> < snip >
Forget Andre
Try this one for size.
You all are attempting to "prove" Santa Claus and/or Santa Claus's
abilities by the concepts of our existence -- by our concepts of matter and
reality!
WHAT IF Santa's reality is outside of our concept of reality and matter?
WHAT IF Santa's reality allows Santa to insert "matter" into our concept of
matter from Santa's reality. That would be the first cause.
It is quite possible that Santa's reality does not need a first cause, only
our concept of our reality.
We can never "prove" Santa when we limit Santa to our concepts.
How foolish would you be should you choose to allow yourself to be governed
by the "concepts" and "realities" of a student in the first grade.
André Forget
=====================================
oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
news:sabugg...@corp.supernews.com...
oot_bop
i can't try that one on for size. You mixed apples with oranges!
God is not provable nor can God be refuted (probably because God IS NOT
of our material existence).
Santa Claus and/or Santa Claus's abilities can be confuted (probably
because Santa Claus IS of our material existence).
--
§:-( oot_bop §:-)
REMOVE "spamfree." to email me!
oot...@alaskalife.net §:-( + Know?ost = §:-)
ICQ = 34292710 KnowPost.com = Ethmer
http://www.knowpost.com/index.php?nmrp=NjAzMw==
Don't forget: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
"Forget Andre" <a_fo...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:apxp4.10$CC3....@wagner.videotron.net...
> > > < snip >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Forget Andre
My answers in your text with ***
oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
news:saef75u...@corp.supernews.com...
> Andre,
>
> i can't try that one on for size. You mixed apples with oranges!
*** I don't. They are both mythical figures!
>
> God is not provable nor can God be refuted (probably because God IS
NOT of our material existence).
***God is provable. If only you could find proofs of his existence. Wouldn't
love it! As you perfectly know, there is no proof of his existence, you try
to cover your lower back with this inanity.
***The existence of god is uncertain as long as no proof is given!
*** Try this parody.
***Santa Claus is not provable nor can Santa be refuted ( probably because
Santa Claus IS NOT of our material existence).
*** There are no SACRED COWS!!
André Forget
===================================
> Santa Claus and/or Santa Claus's abilities can be confuted (probably
> because Santa Claus IS of our material existence).
***Santa is no more materiel than god!
oot_bop
Andre,
Maybe the problem is that of "existence" which i don't see you defining.
If "existence" means "existing of and within this MATERIAL reality",
then NO, you can't ever prove God because God does not abide by the "rules"
of this "existence".
If "existence" means "existing in reality (but not of and limited to
material reality), then too, NO, you can't ever prove God because God's
existence is beyond YOUR bounds of proof which are limited to the rules of
material reality. (If you are locked into a single room of a ten-room
mansion, your reality is limited to that room. You cannot know what is real
in any of the other rooms and you cannot base the reality of what is real in
those other rooms upon what is real in your room.)
There is no way in this life to "prove" God!
So, on to something else:
My God is not the Christian God! Nor is my God any other religion's
God! My God is God!
My God does not and cannot cry! WHY?
--
§:-( oot_bop §:-)
REMOVE "spamfree." to email me!
oot...@alaskalife.net §:-( + Know?ost = §:-)
ICQ = 34292710 KnowPost.com = Ethmer
http://www.knowpost.com/index.php?nmrp=NjAzMw==
Don't forget: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
"Forget Andre" <a_fo...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:GtTp4.711$fp4....@weber.videotron.net...
>
>
> snip <
MGL
Would you like for me to check it before you send your replies?
Happy Valentines Day
Another Pagan holiday ( Cupid )
-=SirMark=-
~*~
"Lev Lyubchenko" <ls...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:884j24$e6q$3...@news01.cit.cornell.edu...
Carlyj
books, that's all. Your clarification is a bit lost on me, but may be of
help to others with more knowledge on the subject. But, I am confused about
the relationship between "no free lunch" and the rest of what you said. I
have often used that same bit of wisdom in my response to the "popular
gospel of Jesus Christ," with its notion of vicarious righteousness. Ayn
Rand would call such people, looters, trying to slip into heaven on someone
else's ticket. Carly J
Carlyj
there were no believers, there would be no God?
If God can be proven, it will be by logic. God IS logic. In the beginning
was logic, and the logic was with God, and God was the logic. There are,
however, various concepts of who or what God is. When an atheist rejects
God, which concept of God is he rejecting? All of them, I presume, and yet,
I think that an atheist must have some sort of idea as to what exactly it is
that he is rejecting. Therefore, he must have a concept of God, or at least
presume to have an idea of the concepts that other people have.
My own concept of God has changed down through the years, and I reject the
concepts of those who are not rational thinkers. But their ideas worked for
me at one time, too, so I understand where they are coming from, and I hope
that someday they will ask the vital question, "Is it true?"
oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
news:sa4ioo...@corp.supernews.com...
> > oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
> > > "Forget Andre" <a_fo...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:ja%m4.2046$HH2....@weber.videotron.net...
> > > > Dear Oot-bop,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, there is no logic to the existence of a god. If there is a
> logic,
> > > how
> > > > come the philosophers have never been able to prove the existence of
a
> > god
> > > > (choose the one you like).
> > > >
> > > > Even worse. The philosophers have admitted for a long time that
there
> is
> > > no
> > > > way of proving the existence of a god. The philosophers are the
> > > specialists
> > > > on the question of LOGIC!
> > > >
> > > > The gods exist on faith! Nothing else!
> > > >
> > > > André Forget
> > > >
> > > > ==============================================
> > > >
> > > > oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:s9omggj...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you "prove" the existence of the moon to a blind man?
> > > > >
> > > > > The blind man cannot see the moon. He also has no direct
> > inference
> > > of
> > > > > its existence in his daily life.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are like the blind man. We cannot "see" God and we cannot
> > > perceive
> > > > > the realm in which God dwells.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we prove the existence of God? No!
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there "logic" to the existence of God? Yes!
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > §:-( oot_bop §:-)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > REMOVE "spamfree." to email me!
> > > > > oot...@alaskalife.net §:-( + Know?ost = §:-)
> > > > > ICQ = 34292710 KnowPost.com = Ethmer
> > > > > http://www.knowpost.com/index.php?nmrp=NjAzMw==
> > > > > Don't forget: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
MGL
What is perhaps the most clear and uncontended about his person , in terms
of historical events,
are that the 14th day of the second month of the year (February) in our
calendar are the day of
birth of Valentine (his romanized name being Valentinius) - it is celebrated
by many more than
his followers, even, in an unceremonial way, by the church that later chose
to prosecute his
followers (the Christian "mob" in Alexandria tore down the last Valentinian
Church in the open
on their earth around 430CE)- in classic times Lupercalia were the feast of
February the 14th
- Lupercalia are the pagan celebration of the "god of the countryside", Pan,
ironically Valentine,
whose name-feast replaced the rather sinister Lupercalia celebration in the
calendar, were
a "man of the city" in many ways, he used among other things, the noisiness
and disorder of
an "inn" as a metaphor for the condition of the soul immersed in worldly
matters.
The Valentinian system of Gnosis are heavily influenced by Plato, and
contains the platonic
disinterest or distance from the smaller pagan deities (actually polytheism
altogether)
and their different intrigues, romances -
Valentine could not care less about the deity of Pan, who in the Odysseys of
Homer, already
in the 4th century BC where declared dead, he was concerned with the
emerging christian
religion, and especially with its Savior myth.
--
-=SirMark=-
~*~
"Tom" <band...@vvm.com> wrote in message
news:GUlq4.16226$0p1.3...@news4.giganews.com...
> Saint Valentines Day
>
> Valentinius was a second century Christian. He was executed on Feb. 14.
> Before he died he sent a note expressing love to a student of his.
>
> Christian holiday not pagan.
>
> God Bless,
> Tom
>
> "MGL" <sirm...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:88agl8$ina$1...@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net...
> > I think your spell checker gave out on you....
> >
> > Would you like for me to check it before you send your replies?
> >
> > Happy Valentines Day
> >
> > Another Pagan holiday ( Cupid )
> >
> > -=SirMark=-
> > ~*~
> >
> >
> >
Forget Andre
OK we stand in perfect accord. You, I, and anybody else cannot prove the
existence of a god (any god) whatever you mean by reality. I agree.
So all gods "exist" on faith only. They all have the same probability of
existing as any other entity not of this world of reality.
List of entities out of the world of reality: spirits, souls, gnomes,
fairies, gods, angels, demons, monsters under my bed, ....
André Forget
===================================
oot_bop <oot...@spamfree.alaskalife.net> wrote in message
news:sah21tu...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Andre,
>
> Maybe the problem is that of "existence" which i don't see you
defining.
>
> If "existence" means "existing of and within this MATERIAL reality",
> then NO, you can't ever prove God because God does not abide by the
"rules"
> of this "existence".
>
> If "existence" means "existing in reality (but not of and limited to
> material reality), then too, NO, you can't ever prove God because God's
> existence is beyond YOUR bounds of proof which are limited to the rules of
> material reality. (If you are locked into a single room of a ten-room
> mansion, your reality is limited to that room. You cannot know what is
real
> in any of the other rooms and you cannot base the reality of what is real
in
> those other rooms upon what is real in your room.)
>
> There is no way in this life to "prove" God!
>
> So, on to something else:
>
> My God is not the Christian God! Nor is my God any other
religion's
> God! My God is God!
>
> My God does not and cannot cry! WHY?
>
> --
>
>
> §:-( oot_bop §:-)
>
>
> REMOVE "spamfree." to email me!
> oot...@alaskalife.net §:-( + Know?ost = §:-)
> ICQ = 34292710 KnowPost.com = Ethmer
> http://www.knowpost.com/index.php?nmrp=NjAzMw==
> Don't forget: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
>
>
> "Forget Andre" <a_fo...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:GtTp4.711$fp4....@weber.videotron.net...
> >
> >
> > snip <
>
>
>
Forget Andre
We, atheists DO NOT REJECT God (or god or gods)! We considered the arguments
and the proofs offered for the existence of the gods and found them lacking.
There is absolutely no proof of the existence of any god! And, as long as
things remains in this state, we will remains atheists.
André Forget
=====================================
Carlyj <car...@tusco.net> wrote in message
news:Aveq4.2954$v74....@ord-read.news.verio.net...
Lev Lyubchenko
that you cannot get something for nothing, especially in physics. It just
means that energy is always conserved in some way. I was not replying to what
you were saying about religion, merely giving some scientific (but very
basic) background to your mention of quantum physics.
Respectfully, Lev
J.Moreno de Tejada
Mª Angeles Bertolin <eter...@lettera.net> escribió en el mensaje de
noticias 884efs$dva$1...@diana.bcn.ttd.net...
libro ? y ¿puede concretar mas de que se trata?
skw
imagination, theories and superstitions.
But, if you want to comprehend whether their exist a Creator of heaven and
earth, that is something quite different. Because the things he created
testify to the fact that the Creator really exists. The Apostle Paul made an
observation which still holds true even in our time. In Romans 1:20 he says:
"FOR HIS INVISIBLE [QUALITIES] ARE CLEARLY SEEN FROM THE WORLD'S CREATION
ONWARD, BECAUSE THEY ARE PERCEIVED BY THE THINGS MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL
POWER AND GODSHIP, SO THAT THEY ARE INEXCUSABLE".
IS THE ATOM THE PRODUCT OF MINDLESS CHANCE, OR IS THE ATOM THE PRODUCT OF A
SUPERIOR INTELLIGENT MIND, A CREATOR?
Huge Particle Accelerators have been built in Switzerland, Russia and in the
USA by scientists, to attain a greater understanding of how the elementary
particles and the universe came into existence. Top experts in the fields of
science, especially mathematics, work together to study the behavior of
matter and atoms in many experimental phases. So far only a very small
amount of extremely unstable particles have been produced.
These experiments prove conclusively, to produce an atom or basic component,
requires an intelligent supervision and direction. These intelligent
scientists prove this very point, that without intelligence, no atom and no
elementary particle can come into existence.
Also, an enormous understanding of mathematics is essential to produce an
elementary particle or an atom. The mindless evolution cannot do any
mathematical equations, calculations and formulas, mindlessness cannot even
calculate anything
At the same time those experimentations have verified the correctness of
Albert Einstein's famous mathematical formula, E=mc2 (energy equals mass
times the speed of light squared).
Astrophysicist Josip Kleczek stated: "MOST AND POSSIBLY ALL ELEMENTARY
PARTICLES MAY BE CREATED BY MATERIALIZATION OF ENERGY." (E=mc2) (The
Universe, by Josip Kleczek, 1976, Vol. 11, p. 17.)
Mathematics is the product of an intelligent mind, since this is the way
Albert Einstein arrived at his formula, E=mc2 (energy equals mass times the
speed of light squared), yes, only through his superior thinking ability and
understanding mathematics could he unlock the secrets of the universe and
was able to produce his famous formula.
Furthermore, everything in the universe and also on earth, has been created
by the use of mathematics and can be understood by ways of mathematical
formulas.
Again I must point out, that the mindless theory of evolution cannot do any
mathematics; mindlessness cannot even enumerate anything, therefore, the
assumed mindless procedures of the theory of evolution cannot produce any
complexity.
The theory of evolution therefore, is the greatest hoax ever pulled off on
earth.
The fundamental Law of complexity is:
"THE MORE, SOPHISTICATED AND COMPLEX A DEVICE OR SYSTEM IS, THE GREATER THE
MIND, AND LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM AND INTELLIGENCE MUST BE, TO INVENT,
DESIGN AND MAKE THAT DEVICE OR SYSTEM."
a JW
named Louis