On Original Sin, Part Three
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Brock
May 14, 2011, 12:11:55 AM5/14/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgvwLCYJYPY
On original sin[1], continued;
Warning: This essay discusses intense language and themes. Discretion
is advised.
This train of thinking [described earlier] might seem virtuous and
even plausible to some who do not have the light of the Bible to see
by. And perhaps I might have thought so too, except by God’s grace,
which provided for me and placed me in a nation lighted by the lamp of
the reason of scripture. However, the apostle Paul notes more in a
few simple lines than an uncounted number of other uninspired writings
on the subject contain: “Therefore, just as through one man sin
entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to
all men, because all sinned”[2].
The verse gives evidence that before the sin of the father of the
human race, humankind was without sin, happy and did not know death.
Let us consider the garden of Eden, and view humankind before the
fall. The bible teaches that humankind was created spiritually and
morally upright, in the image of God: a creation that in its limited
way was a living transcript of God the Creator. Being in God’s image
should be understood in a spiritual and figurative way. The grand and
sublime manner in which humankind resembled God lay in the qualities
of holiness, knowledge, dominion, happiness and immortality humankind
possessed, and does not refer to the beauty and upright stature of the
physical body.
But humankind, created in a state of honor, did not remain there. God
only knows why, but He permitted an enemy spirit, who had previously
fallen away from God, to present a temptation to humankind, and our
first parents yielded to it and fell into sin.
Whether the instant and dismal effects came from the fruit itself, or
simply from the principle of disobedience that eating it represented,
may be an academic question. Similarly, scripture does not specify
which particular kind of fruit it was, whether it was a pomegranate,
or a cluster of grapes, or an apple, or an orange or lemon, the Bible
did not reveal.
What we are sure of, from the evidence of scripture, reason,
observation and experience is that humankind, from that day forward,
universally lost the perfection of God’s image, lost the “divine
nature” or “likeness to God” (“theia fusis” and “homoiosis toe theo”
as Plato called it), and sank to an ungodly and miserable state
(“atheon” as Plato called it). Humankind’s purity of character,
thought, being, speech and conduct vanished. Our knowledge was
similarly eclipsed. Our dominion over creation was reduced to a very
narrow scope. Our happiness was exchanged for complicated infirmities
and miseries that never seem to end. And while humankind remained in
this miserable condition as an immortal soul, the physical body became
cursed by death.
Also from this sin comes the disorder and irregularity of being and
events through the entire world. The earth, conflicted, brings forth
a harvest of weeds and poisonous plants, the seasons bring varied
troubles, the air is full of disease, and the very food we eat can
lead to our eventual demise.
Further, pain and death also affect animals, their nature affected by
the curse brought by their stewardly masters. Will these innocent
creatures, affected by the consequence of human sin be restored to a
life of happiness and immortality? The merciful and gracious God only
knows. Offered as a private, non-inspired opinion, I believe the
Bible hints that it will be so, particularly in the book of Romans:
“For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the
revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to
futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to
corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”[3]
What a pleasing topic to conjecture!
(essay continues ...)
====
[1] a modern paraphrase of "A Short Essay on Original Sin", by A.
Toplady,
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/atoriginalsin.htm
[2] http://bible.cc/romans/5-12.htm
[3] http://bible.cc/romans/8-19.htm
On original sin[1], continued;
Warning: This essay discusses intense language and themes. Discretion
is advised.
This train of thinking [described earlier] might seem virtuous and
even plausible to some who do not have the light of the Bible to see
by. And perhaps I might have thought so too, except by God’s grace,
which provided for me and placed me in a nation lighted by the lamp of
the reason of scripture. However, the apostle Paul notes more in a
few simple lines than an uncounted number of other uninspired writings
on the subject contain: “Therefore, just as through one man sin
entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to
all men, because all sinned”[2].
The verse gives evidence that before the sin of the father of the
human race, humankind was without sin, happy and did not know death.
Let us consider the garden of Eden, and view humankind before the
fall. The bible teaches that humankind was created spiritually and
morally upright, in the image of God: a creation that in its limited
way was a living transcript of God the Creator. Being in God’s image
should be understood in a spiritual and figurative way. The grand and
sublime manner in which humankind resembled God lay in the qualities
of holiness, knowledge, dominion, happiness and immortality humankind
possessed, and does not refer to the beauty and upright stature of the
physical body.
But humankind, created in a state of honor, did not remain there. God
only knows why, but He permitted an enemy spirit, who had previously
fallen away from God, to present a temptation to humankind, and our
first parents yielded to it and fell into sin.
Whether the instant and dismal effects came from the fruit itself, or
simply from the principle of disobedience that eating it represented,
may be an academic question. Similarly, scripture does not specify
which particular kind of fruit it was, whether it was a pomegranate,
or a cluster of grapes, or an apple, or an orange or lemon, the Bible
did not reveal.
What we are sure of, from the evidence of scripture, reason,
observation and experience is that humankind, from that day forward,
universally lost the perfection of God’s image, lost the “divine
nature” or “likeness to God” (“theia fusis” and “homoiosis toe theo”
as Plato called it), and sank to an ungodly and miserable state
(“atheon” as Plato called it). Humankind’s purity of character,
thought, being, speech and conduct vanished. Our knowledge was
similarly eclipsed. Our dominion over creation was reduced to a very
narrow scope. Our happiness was exchanged for complicated infirmities
and miseries that never seem to end. And while humankind remained in
this miserable condition as an immortal soul, the physical body became
cursed by death.
Also from this sin comes the disorder and irregularity of being and
events through the entire world. The earth, conflicted, brings forth
a harvest of weeds and poisonous plants, the seasons bring varied
troubles, the air is full of disease, and the very food we eat can
lead to our eventual demise.
Further, pain and death also affect animals, their nature affected by
the curse brought by their stewardly masters. Will these innocent
creatures, affected by the consequence of human sin be restored to a
life of happiness and immortality? The merciful and gracious God only
knows. Offered as a private, non-inspired opinion, I believe the
Bible hints that it will be so, particularly in the book of Romans:
“For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the
revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to
futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to
corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”[3]
What a pleasing topic to conjecture!
(essay continues ...)
====
[1] a modern paraphrase of "A Short Essay on Original Sin", by A.
Toplady,
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/atoriginalsin.htm
[2] http://bible.cc/romans/5-12.htm
[3] http://bible.cc/romans/8-19.htm
ornamentalmind
May 14, 2011, 12:56:40 AM5/14/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
e_space
May 14, 2011, 7:18:52 AM5/14/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
re: "Whether the instant and dismal effects came from the fruit
but not in mine ... my school of reason teaches me that nothing like
this happened in the first place ...
for example, who wrote this story? someone who, years after the
fateful bite, was inspired by god that these events actually took
place? he was so explicitly inspired that he knew it was a snake
hanging out in a tree who spoke to eve, and that the tree was referred
to as "the tree of good and evil"? [according to the myth, its hard to
imagine what was good about it]
... or, did adam record the events and pass them down from generation
to generation, who eventually discovered how to write, and were then
commissioned to pen adam's version of events, as follows ... "one day,
in a state of buck nakedness, eve and i were chilling in the back
yard ... eve decided she wanted to eat an apple, but a resident tree
dwelling snake told her not to ... she said 'to hell with that, no
snake is going to tell me what to eat!' ... and promptly took a
bite ... all of a sudden we found ourselves to be grossly imperfect
and ran to the closest fig tree to hide our filthy sinful
bodies!!!" ... pick a version and tell me if that sounds reasonable to
you?
re: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world,
association? i realize that the only posts you respond to me are the
ones where i do not ask you to substantiate your factual sounding
claims, but as already asked, if your daddy was a murderer, should you
go to jail for it? according to the teachings that you have somehow
been convinced to adopt as fact, we are all born in sin because eve
took a bite of an apple ... does that sound reasonable to you?
re: "What we are sure of, from the evidence of scripture, reason,
of ..." ... not only am i not sure of this claim, i completely reject
it ... it is not fair to blame all people in the history of the planet
for the actions of one man ... errr woman ... and i do not believe
that any benevolent "being" would subject "his" "creations" to such an
unjust punishment ... in our society, and by all reason, one is
punished for what they do, not for what someone else does ...
re: "What a pleasing topic to conjecture!" ... why do you continuously
slap your emotions on the plate of your readers? in reality, your
topic is not only unpleasing to me, it is a myth promoted as fact, and
an assault on the intellect of those who force themselves to slog
through the limitless depths of your propaganda ...
> Toplady,http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/atoriginalsin.htm
itself, or simply from the principle of disobedience that eating it
represented, may be an academic question." ... maybe in your academia,
but not in mine ... my school of reason teaches me that nothing like
this happened in the first place ...
for example, who wrote this story? someone who, years after the
fateful bite, was inspired by god that these events actually took
place? he was so explicitly inspired that he knew it was a snake
hanging out in a tree who spoke to eve, and that the tree was referred
to as "the tree of good and evil"? [according to the myth, its hard to
imagine what was good about it]
... or, did adam record the events and pass them down from generation
to generation, who eventually discovered how to write, and were then
commissioned to pen adam's version of events, as follows ... "one day,
in a state of buck nakedness, eve and i were chilling in the back
yard ... eve decided she wanted to eat an apple, but a resident tree
dwelling snake told her not to ... she said 'to hell with that, no
snake is going to tell me what to eat!' ... and promptly took a
bite ... all of a sudden we found ourselves to be grossly imperfect
and ran to the closest fig tree to hide our filthy sinful
bodies!!!" ... pick a version and tell me if that sounds reasonable to
you?
re: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world,
and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all
sinned” ... ummm, wasnt it eve who sinned? or did adam sin by
association? i realize that the only posts you respond to me are the
ones where i do not ask you to substantiate your factual sounding
claims, but as already asked, if your daddy was a murderer, should you
go to jail for it? according to the teachings that you have somehow
been convinced to adopt as fact, we are all born in sin because eve
took a bite of an apple ... does that sound reasonable to you?
re: "What we are sure of, from the evidence of scripture, reason,
observation and experience is that humankind, from that day forward,
universally lost the perfection of God’s image, lost the “divine
nature” or “likeness to God” ... correction "what YOU are sure
universally lost the perfection of God’s image, lost the “divine
of ..." ... not only am i not sure of this claim, i completely reject
it ... it is not fair to blame all people in the history of the planet
for the actions of one man ... errr woman ... and i do not believe
that any benevolent "being" would subject "his" "creations" to such an
unjust punishment ... in our society, and by all reason, one is
punished for what they do, not for what someone else does ...
re: "What a pleasing topic to conjecture!" ... why do you continuously
slap your emotions on the plate of your readers? in reality, your
topic is not only unpleasing to me, it is a myth promoted as fact, and
an assault on the intellect of those who force themselves to slog
through the limitless depths of your propaganda ...
Brock Organ
May 14, 2011, 12:14:36 PM5/14/11
to a-civil-reli...@googlegroups.com
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:56 AM, ornamentalmind
<ornament...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1g8WCA7mJk
<ornament...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1g8WCA7mJk
I contrastingly, consider the Confession:
"All those that are justified, God vouchsafeth, in and for his only
Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption: by which
they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges
of the children of God; have his name put upon them; receive the
Spirit of adoption; have access to the throne of grace with boldness;
are enabled to cry, Abba, Father; are pitied, protected, provided for,
and chastened by his as by a father; yet never cast off, but sealed to
the day of redemption, and inherit the promises, as heirs of
everlasting salvation. "
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XII.html
Regards,
Brock
e_space
May 14, 2011, 4:42:55 PM5/14/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
actually brock, what you really do is avoid the tough issues, while
constantly repeating yourself ... booooooringggggg!
On May 14, 12:14 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:56 AM, ornamentalmind
>
constantly repeating yourself ... booooooringggggg!
On May 14, 12:14 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:56 AM, ornamentalmind
>
ornamentalmind
May 14, 2011, 7:21:22 PM5/14/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1g8WCA7mJk
On May 14, 9:14 am, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:56 AM, ornamentalmind
>
On May 14, 9:14 am, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:56 AM, ornamentalmind
>
Brock Organ
May 14, 2011, 7:31:25 PM5/14/11
to a-civil-reli...@googlegroups.com
ornamentalmind
May 15, 2011, 11:27:02 PM5/15/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1g8WCA7mJk
On May 14, 4:31 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 7:21 PM, ornamentalmind
>
On May 14, 4:31 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 7:21 PM, ornamentalmind
>
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