Pride, a necessary evil...?
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Jelrak TB
Jun 9, 2011, 2:52:11 PM6/9/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
I have often considered what the world would be like without pride.
1) Attending sporting events would be a much flatter experience.
2) Fashion would come to a complete halt.
3) Much of the economy might slow considerably.
4) Individual personalities could become harder to distinguish.
5) A lot of humor hinges on it being exhibited by an opponent.
6) Without pride in one's appearance many good-looking people might
fail to reach their potential.
7) What would inspire one to keep a neat home or office?
8) Would people aspire to great things as often?
9) Scientific progress might by greatly slowed.
10) There would be many, many fewer novels, biographies, and tell-all
books.
11) It might be exceedingly difficult to find politicians and actors.
12) Would one trust a truly *humble* defense attorney?
Any other ideas?
1) Attending sporting events would be a much flatter experience.
2) Fashion would come to a complete halt.
3) Much of the economy might slow considerably.
4) Individual personalities could become harder to distinguish.
5) A lot of humor hinges on it being exhibited by an opponent.
6) Without pride in one's appearance many good-looking people might
fail to reach their potential.
7) What would inspire one to keep a neat home or office?
8) Would people aspire to great things as often?
9) Scientific progress might by greatly slowed.
10) There would be many, many fewer novels, biographies, and tell-all
books.
11) It might be exceedingly difficult to find politicians and actors.
12) Would one trust a truly *humble* defense attorney?
Any other ideas?
ornamentalmind
Jun 9, 2011, 8:41:58 PM6/9/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
Actually, the above sounds like one of the only possible improvements
for humanity.
for humanity.
Jelrak TB
Jun 13, 2011, 11:59:59 AM6/13/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
On Jun 9, 6:41 pm, ornamentalmind <ornamentalmind...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, the above sounds like one of the only possible improvements
> for humanity.
>
To make my position clearer, I am wondering what the consequences of
*no* pride would be to society; certainly a lessening of pride is
often a positive, but its complete effacement might potentially be
more akin to the complete removal of appetite in order to curb
gluttony.
ornamentalmind
Jun 13, 2011, 7:00:20 PM6/13/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
Jelrak, your specific example of “the complete removal of appetite in
order to curb gluttony.” would be a good place to start.
Your analogy about appetite/gluttony seems to ignore the innate
biological drive towards living which includes the intake of
sustenance. Of course, you might be thinking of things such as cutting
the Vagus nerve, something that used to be done in extreme cases of
gastric ulcer and perhaps other medical cases, which removes the sense
of hunger. As I understand it, such people do have to consciously
decide to eat rather than follow the natural biological drive to
partake.
So, in the real world, appetite just doesn’t become removed in most
cases.
As to your original list of 12 about pride, I observe that the
majority of them if not all involve behavior that has helped lead
towards the suffering of humanity if not its actual demise. Rather
than go point by point, a couple of quick examples may suffice.
The economy *has*slowed considerably … and mostly due to the result of
pride to the point of arrogance and sociopathology. Scientific
‘progress’, politicians, attorneys etc. can be seen in the light of
producing the means of self destruction, planet wide pollution,
warfare … even global war, and the creation of countless draconian
laws…most of which at the very least cause suffering…at worst, help to
hasten self destruction. Yes, I know that such a view isn’t very
popular… and I accept that.
My point is that what most people consider a necessity…such as
fashion, aspiration or being neat… *are* as you suggest firmly rooted
in pride. The truth is that humanity could well do without them both.
order to curb gluttony.” would be a good place to start.
Your analogy about appetite/gluttony seems to ignore the innate
biological drive towards living which includes the intake of
sustenance. Of course, you might be thinking of things such as cutting
the Vagus nerve, something that used to be done in extreme cases of
gastric ulcer and perhaps other medical cases, which removes the sense
of hunger. As I understand it, such people do have to consciously
decide to eat rather than follow the natural biological drive to
partake.
So, in the real world, appetite just doesn’t become removed in most
cases.
As to your original list of 12 about pride, I observe that the
majority of them if not all involve behavior that has helped lead
towards the suffering of humanity if not its actual demise. Rather
than go point by point, a couple of quick examples may suffice.
The economy *has*slowed considerably … and mostly due to the result of
pride to the point of arrogance and sociopathology. Scientific
‘progress’, politicians, attorneys etc. can be seen in the light of
producing the means of self destruction, planet wide pollution,
warfare … even global war, and the creation of countless draconian
laws…most of which at the very least cause suffering…at worst, help to
hasten self destruction. Yes, I know that such a view isn’t very
popular… and I accept that.
My point is that what most people consider a necessity…such as
fashion, aspiration or being neat… *are* as you suggest firmly rooted
in pride. The truth is that humanity could well do without them both.
JTB
Jun 13, 2011, 7:21:54 PM6/13/11
to a-civil-reli...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, ornamentalmind <ornament...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jelrak, your specific example of “the complete removal of appetite in
order to curb gluttony.” would be a good place to start.
Your analogy about appetite/gluttony seems to ignore the innate
biological drive towards living which includes the intake of
sustenance. Of course, you might be thinking of things such as cutting
the Vagus nerve, something that used to be done in extreme cases of
gastric ulcer and perhaps other medical cases, which removes the sense
of hunger. As I understand it, such people do have to consciously
decide to eat rather than follow the natural biological drive to
partake.
So, in the real world, appetite just doesn’t become removed in most
cases.
Perhaps appetite is not the ideal analogy because one requires sustenance in order to live. What if, instead, I were to suggest the removal of taste so that all flavors were rendered equally bland? In such a way, food might fulfill a purely necessary requirement without further flourish.
As to your original list of 12 about pride, I observe that the
majority of them if not all involve behavior that has helped lead
towards the suffering of humanity if not its actual demise. Rather
than go point by point, a couple of quick examples may suffice.
The economy *has*slowed considerably … and mostly due to the result of
pride to the point of arrogance and sociopathology. Scientific
‘progress’, politicians, attorneys etc. can be seen in the light of
producing the means of self destruction, planet wide pollution,
warfare … even global war, and the creation of countless draconian
laws…most of which at the very least cause suffering…at worst, help to
hasten self destruction. Yes, I know that such a view isn’t very
popular… and I accept that.
My point is that what most people consider a necessity…such as
fashion, aspiration or being neat… *are* as you suggest firmly rooted
in pride. The truth is that humanity could well do without them both.
Now, I do in fact agree that excessive pride will lead to these problems and so naturally should be held in check. What I am wondering is what a world *completely* devoid of pride would be like? Would people become slovenly? Would they fail to concern themselves entirely about their appearances, rendering humanity a ragged, unkempt group? Would yards become unsightly ruins and children run around pellmell? Would etiquette fall by the wayside?
What would it be like to be entirely humble?
I ask this question because I value humility, but wonder if taken to extremes it might be just as problematic as pride taken to its own extreme? Is it balance that is more important, perhaps?
ornamentalmind
Jun 13, 2011, 10:33:51 PM6/13/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
“…Is it balance that is more important, perhaps? “ = JTB
Many schools of thought such as sects of Buddhism would seriously
consider what you propose about balance.
In any case, I personally doubt that any true opinion is possible here
without knowing exactly what ‘pride’ is and how it manifests including
its origin. Do you have any serious thoughts about these issues? If
so, sharing might be interesting.
On Jun 13, 4:21 pm, JTB <jel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, ornamentalmind <ornamentalmind...@gmail.com
Many schools of thought such as sects of Buddhism would seriously
consider what you propose about balance.
In any case, I personally doubt that any true opinion is possible here
without knowing exactly what ‘pride’ is and how it manifests including
its origin. Do you have any serious thoughts about these issues? If
so, sharing might be interesting.
On Jun 13, 4:21 pm, JTB <jel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, ornamentalmind <ornamentalmind...@gmail.com
JTB
Jun 14, 2011, 12:10:22 PM6/14/11
to a-civil-reli...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:33 PM, ornamentalmind <ornament...@gmail.com> wrote:
“…Is it balance that is more important, perhaps? “ = JTB
Many schools of thought such as sects of Buddhism would seriously
consider what you propose about balance.
In any case, I personally doubt that any true opinion is possible here
without knowing exactly what ‘pride’ is and how it manifests including
its origin. Do you have any serious thoughts about these issues? If
so, sharing might be interesting.
I have considered pride to merely be what each of us holds to be different, unique, special, noteworthy, important, or even useful about ourselves. It seems to me to be something of the personal flame that allows each of us to stand apart and be self-sustaining from time to time. It allows us to gain satisfaction from doing a job well even if no one else should ever notice the intricate detail. It is self-satisfaction and therefore seems to be a way for the individual to satisfy his or herself with his or her own works or talents independently of others.
This is why when it is found in excess it creates difficulties: an individual who thinks too highly of him or herself risks alienating or harming others because of a lack of awareness of their needs. Humility is a means of thinking of others first, but when taken to extremes it could lead to complete self-effacement.
These are some basic thoughts I have about it at any rate.
Joe
Jun 14, 2011, 7:01:41 PM6/14/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
We read in the book of Sirach,
10:27
My son, with humility have self-esteem; prize yourself as you
deserve.
It seems to me we have to differentiate between self-esteem or self-
worth, on the one hand, and the sin of pride on the other. They are
not the same thing.
The analogy to gluttony is a good one. No one would call a glutton he
who only ate enough to sustain himself. Food is supposed to taste
good. It is supposed to bring us pleasure, to eat. Deriving pleasure
from eating is natural, and not a sin of gluttony. So with pride,
esteeming oneself as one deserves is not the sin of pride. The sin of
pride is esteeming oneself more than one deserves, or at the expense
of others.
On Jun 14, 12:10 pm, JTB <jel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:33 PM, ornamentalmind <ornamentalmind...@gmail.com
10:27
My son, with humility have self-esteem; prize yourself as you
deserve.
It seems to me we have to differentiate between self-esteem or self-
worth, on the one hand, and the sin of pride on the other. They are
not the same thing.
The analogy to gluttony is a good one. No one would call a glutton he
who only ate enough to sustain himself. Food is supposed to taste
good. It is supposed to bring us pleasure, to eat. Deriving pleasure
from eating is natural, and not a sin of gluttony. So with pride,
esteeming oneself as one deserves is not the sin of pride. The sin of
pride is esteeming oneself more than one deserves, or at the expense
of others.
On Jun 14, 12:10 pm, JTB <jel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:33 PM, ornamentalmind <ornamentalmind...@gmail.com
Jelrak TB
Jun 15, 2011, 1:27:03 PM6/15/11
to A Civil Religious Debate
On Jun 14, 5:01 pm, Joe <jfg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We read in the book of Sirach,
>
> 10:27
> My son, with humility have self-esteem; prize yourself as you
> deserve.
>
> It seems to me we have to differentiate between self-esteem or self-
> worth, on the one hand, and the sin of pride on the other. They are
> not the same thing.
>
> The analogy to gluttony is a good one. No one would call a glutton he
> who only ate enough to sustain himself. Food is supposed to taste
> good. It is supposed to bring us pleasure, to eat. Deriving pleasure
> from eating is natural, and not a sin of gluttony. So with pride,
> esteeming oneself as one deserves is not the sin of pride. The sin of
> pride is esteeming oneself more than one deserves, or at the expense
> of others.
distinction between pride and self-esteem.
Pride is:
*1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or
association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4.
a. A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group
or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
b. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of
youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
6. Mettle or spirit in horses.
7. A company of lions. See Synonyms at flock1.
8. A flamboyant or impressive group: a pride of acrobats.
tr.v. prid·ed, prid·ing, prides
9. To indulge (oneself) in a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction: I
pride myself on this beautiful garden.
10. The consciousness of one's own dignity: he swallowed his pride and
asked for help
11. The quality of having an excessively high opinion of oneself or
one's importance: the sin of pride
*As defined by #1, pride and self-esteem seem to be synonymous. The
varied definitions of pride might be part of the problem I have in
sourcing the *evil* in pride: it hardly seems evil to have self-
respect or to find self-fulfillment in one's lifelong pursuits.
There is no argument that an excess of pride, as best described by
definition 11, is problematic.
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