Resolved: The United States Should Not Distance Itself From Europe. Guest: Professor Jolyon Holworth
ce...@yale.edu
FLOOR MEETING
NOVEMBER 2, 2005 - LC 102
The Speaker calls the meeting to order at 7:43 pm.
The chairmen make their announcements.
The President welcomes Yale Professor Jolyon Holworth. He is also a
professor at University of Bath. Focuses on international relations,
especially with Europe. He is a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts in
Britain. Speaking to us about the US relationship with Europe. The US
is disgruntled because Europe didn't support Iraq war. Is rebuilding
the relationship a worthwhile endeavor?
The President of the Yale Political Union moves the topic Resolved: The
United States Should Not Distance Itself From Europe.
Professor Holworth said that while he was at the Oxford union, they
debated Resolved: This House Would Rather Be European Than American.
The Marshall Plan was about extraordinary generosity and vision.
Wanted a healthy and competitive rivalry with USSR, but also develop
competition with the rest of Europe. People said that it's not
convenient to make Europe a satellite and that we should try to make it
a partner. JFK talked about interdependence on a 4th of July. During
the Clinton administration the EU and US signed new transatlantic
agenda. President Bush asked "Do we really want the EU to
succeed?" Robert Kagan says that US and Europe have parted ways. EU
treaty is having trouble and conservatives are happy. Some liberals
say that with fall of the USSR, the West has no future. Original
architects of transatlantic treaty were correct. EU and US need each
other. Must complement each other. The European 9/11 was the fall of
the Berlin Wall. EU would be rival to US military, but they're
developing a different type of military. Key is conscientious
security. EU development of military relieves US military from duties
in Europe that wasn't theirs. EU has business in peace keeping, etc.
EU military is trained to rebuild schoolhouses and several other
things that the US isn't trained to do. If partnership didn't
exist, we'd have to invent it. We are economically interdependent.
There is more European investment in Texas alone than US investments in
Japan. The EU overtook US as largest market, GDP, and world trade
surpluses. Era of US hegemony is over...new players: China, India,
Brazil. Together, we can help set an agenda that's beneficial to
everyone. US wanted human rights, but it is one of 7 states to vote
against international criminal court. In 1939, most nations were in
totalitarian vortex. Many nations have become democracies since then.
The EU hopes to bring democracy to others. Neither the EU nor the US
will be able to do it. But together, they might do it. On
environmental issues, US and EU have switched places. EU has become
#1. Since 1980s, Europe was setting of many environmental problems.
People demanded EU intervention because they don't trust their
countries. That doesn't happen in US. If you vote green here,
instead of Ralph Nader, you get George Bush. Together, EU and US can
overcome challenge. EU has done a lot about nuclear proliferation.
Engaged with Iran in negotiations. First round was flawed. Tehran
regime signaled willingness to start fresh negotiations. EU and US
need to work together on negotiations. US and EU have equal commitment
to the issue of regional peace in Israel and Palestine. EU recognized
PLO as legitimate party and called for a Palestinian homeland. If
Turkey joins EU, will have borders with Israel, Palestine, and Iraq
(oops, promised not to say that word!). Together, EU and US might
achieve change in Arab world. EU and US are on same wavelength with
respect to the war on terror. EU-US cooperation on counterterrorism
has been great. Intelligence has been shared, passage of name records,
extensive customs cooperation, etc. This was unthinkable 5 years ago.
They still just focus on the immediate effect of attacks, but not as
much on long term effects. When Bush visited Europe, he stressed that
"all that we seek to achieve in the world requires that American and
Europe remain close..."
Mr. Jamie Kirchick asks if aiding the PLO and Arafat (who invented
notion of modern terrorism) doesn't make a solution more difficult to
arrive to.
Holworth: Won't dwell on origins of terrorism. In a two state
solution, you have to have both of those 2 states funded. EU is just
helping it to be on same level of Israel (which is supported by US).
If you don't think that's good, can't believe in peace. EU
believes that somebody has to fund it.
Mr. Ross Kennedy-Shaffer asks if there is a real problem with member
states giving up their national sovereignty.
Holworth: treaty was signed by all 25 heads of state in EU.
Ratification doesn't have anything to do with pooling sovereignty.
Mr. Zheyao Lee asks what the place of the UK in the EU is? What is
impact that EU will have on DC-London and DC-Brussels relationship?
Holworth: wishes that he knew. Britain has a special problem. Agrees
with Thatcher (for once)...historically, Europe has presented problems
for UK, and US provides solutions. Britain has insular island
mentality, counterpart is that it was greatest empire that world has
seen. Dichotomy still exists. It has never had a leader who is
sufficiently convinced that European route is route to go. Future is a
European future. Some may not like it, but everyone knows it will
happen.
The President of the Yale Political Union moves that we thank Professor
Holworth for a fine speech on floor of the Yale Political Union.
The Floorleader of the Right, Mr. Jon Lindsey, speaks in the negative.
There is a sentiment that countries benefit with being friends with one
another. What does US have to lose with being friends. Refers to
Odom's visit to the Union last semester. Loved Odom's approach.
Even if EU is going to fall, it's still a good thing because it'll
make money for US and that's why we should be friends with them.
But, what is at stake? Goes back to childhood. He asked why we take
sick cattle out of the pen. Father said that if you leave sick cattle
inside, it gets everyone else sick. That's why conservative kids
shouldn't hang out with liberal kids! Some think that socialism is
dead in the world. Can't believe that. We see it in Europe. We
thrive from innovation of private sector. Shouldn't sacrifice that
for Europe. There are not many Europeans that are engaged in some sort
of moral or religious action. If we become secular, like Europe, it
will damage our moral fiber. The US has respect for national
sovereignty that EU does not. US should cultivate relationships with
states in Europe that are similar and distance itself from those that
aren't. That way, we'll make a better Europe.
Ms. Shari Wiseman questions that Europeans are socialists. US brand
names are European-owned. Maybe they're socialists, but could they
be better capitalists than we are?
Lindsey: it goes to show how much values differ. The US is willing to
let them buy our companies. Nations in Europe are more controlled.
Mr. Andrew Olson asks if Mr. Lindsey would rather be shot than be
European.
Lindsey: if I could live in a nation where I know that I'm
accountable for my welfare, own a weapon, and where we make medical
advances that help people live, ok with being shot.
Mr. George London asks that if European beliefs contaminate American
beliefs, are US beliefs bad or weak and can't hold up?
Lindsey: not that we can't fight them off...but act of fighting them
off is by not buying into ideas of European friendship.
The President asks what the problem is with having differences if we
have the same goals? Why can't we accept differences and work
together?
Lindsey: there are a lot of things that US and Europe can accomplish
together. If we're spreading democracy, having different views
isn't conducive to giving an image of what democratic states should
be like. We need to be on same page for what we want to see in world.
Speaking in the affirmative, Mr. Noah Mamis asks why the US needs
allies at all. Some people on right don't take this as a given. Why
should it be Europe? We need allies because we have a position
that's so filled with power that everything we do gets a receive
extreme reaction (love or hate). Those that hate us outnumber those
that love. We're getting more threats. US will not be the only
superpower. India and China will match us. Their GDP increases will
make them a threat to us being at the top. What are we going to do
when there's a real threat (not like Iraq)? Why should Europe be our
ally? Total GDP of entire EU is greater than US. There is nothing
intrinsic about US that Europe doesn't like. They just want us to be
less dangerous.
Mr. Andrew Olson asks if it would be better to be friends with India
and China instead of focusing on Europe.
Mamis: There are serious problems with relationship with India and
China. Those problems don't exist with Europe.
The Vice President says that Europe isn't growing. Is the lack of
human growth a concern?
Mamis: There is immigration into Europe. Knows that PoR and Muslim
immigration are not best of friends... But, still thinks that EU
economy is growing.
Mr. Dave Kasten gives the next speech in the negative. He sat in his
common room talking with a suitemate about what languages are important
to learn. If you want to travel to Europe, Arabic is important!
Europe is a stagnating collection of nation states. The welfare state
leads to less population growth. EU does anything it has to do to
stimulate economy. Lets Muslim immigration occur. This leads to a lot
of problems, like the riots in France. The EU doesn't have the
capital to develop first class military. Instead, makes a
peace-keeping military. There is something wrong with funding PLO.
The EU appeases population with welfare and by catering to Muslim
world. EU is investing so much in US and not in Europe.
The Floorleader of the Left, Ms. Meredith Startz, notes that Mr. Kasten
has an interesting concept of causality. Welfare CLEARLY means they
have to appease population, etc.
Kasten: this is the actual discussion that's going on. French
government doesn't have money. When you don't have capacity to
engage in good old fashioned nation building, you have to look at
alternative.
Mr. Mamis asks why it is worse that France is using money for social
programs than US having deficit because of military.
Kasten: US is larger nation-state. Also, the US places different role
on who should take care of old people.
A gentleman says that Iraq seems to be a perfect example of how we
can't build nations and we need Europe's different type of
military.
Kasten: Until very recently, we were the only ones keeping Russians out
of Eastern Europe. Argues that it's fundamentally wrong to outsource
job (nation building) to European community. Europe doesn't want to
help with Iraq.
In the affirmative, Mr. Alexander Yergin said he could go on for hours
on the EU. Dislikes Europe and thinks they're ungrateful, but it's
ridiculous to think that we can ignore them. We have a lot of trade.
It is a great center of liberal capitalism. It is important to work
with them on terrorism. They also distinguish between public face and
what they're really thinking. We should be aware of the dangers of
isolationism. Last time it happened was 1920s. We may detest Europe,
but we have to work with them.
Mr. Silas Kulkarni is confused with idea that isolationism was bad in
1920s...seems like opposite happened.
Yergin: doesn't support the side we entered the war on in 1917.
On information, Mr. Mamis asks if it is not in fact the case that the
Kaiser wasn't very nice to people?
The Speaker adds that he was not a fluffy teddy bear...
Yergin: Treaty of Versailles was a disaster.
Mr. Kasten argues that right doesn't want to rely on Europe. Is that
better than isolationism or is that still isolationism?
Yergin: not a fan of blind multilateralism. But, we shouldn't take
adversarial role. This is international relations...doesn't see how
values really matter.
Closing Remarks: Professor Jolyon Holworth
Not sure what it means to say that Europe is socialism. Socialism
finished sometime in 1980s. Wealth is made in different ways. We can
combine ambitions. Separation of Church and State is a good thing
because Europe was torn apart by religious quarrels. Should be kept
out of public sphere. We find that regions have come to believe that
the nation state doesn't necessarily have to be the best thing ever.
We're moving beyond it. America is the last great nation-state on
earth. Demography is a problem. Don't have to make babies to make
money. Fundamentally wrong to believe that you need babies. French
were obsessed with demographic rate because they didn't make as many
babies as Germans. European model is a choice based on different
lifestyles. We'll see if social model works in due course. Question
of non-reliance is a key issue for everyone.
The Chairman of the Conservative Party moves the previous question.
Motion is seconded and objected to, but the motion passes.
With a vote of:
Affirmative: 36
Negative: 6
The motion clearly passes.
The Chairman of the Constitutional Committee, Ms. Meredith Startz,
moves that we approve the constitutional amendments. Motion is
seconded and objected to.
The President summarizes the changes in the officer descriptions.
With a vote of:
Affirmative: 44
Negative: 1
Abstention: 5
The amendments pass.
The President moves that we thank Meredith Startz for her leadership of
the Constitutional Committee.
The Chairman of the Conservative Party moves that we adjourn.
Respectfully submitted,
Maria Gabriela Orochena
Secretary of the Yale Political Union