Resolved: School Choice is the Best Way to Ensure Educational Opportunity. Guest: Clint Bolick

[ce...@yale.edu]

YALE POLITICAL UNION
FLOOR MEETING
OCTOBER 19, 2005 - WLH 208

The Speaker calls the meeting to order at 7:39 pm.

The chairmen make their announcements.

The President of the Yale Political Union welcomes everyone in the body
and, especially, the night's guest, Clint Bolick. Mr. Bolick is the
head of the Alliance for School Choice.

The President of the Yale Political Union moves the topic Resolved:
School Choice is the Best Way to Ensure Educational Opportunity

Mr. Clint Bolick expresses his gratitude to those that opted out of the
Edwards talk. Edwards is anti-school choice anyway. 2004 was a good
year for school choice. Was the year that the US president endorsed
school choice. Not Bush, but the president on West Wing! He agreed to
start a pilot school choice program despite the anger of his party. If
it can happen in Hollywood, it can happen anywhere. This year, we
commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Brown II decision. Court
declared that the Brown II promise should be implemented with all
deliberate speed. Still, many kids, especially minorities, don't
have this promise. Too many Black and Hispanic kids are not graduating
from high school. Racial academic gap has widened in the last 10
years. We need to re-conceptualize the concept of public education.
We should be worried if kids are being educated, not where they're
being educated. What is school choice? Basically, it's a supplement
of basic public school system. People can use funds to attend the
school of their choice. It is the same system that is implemented for
post-secondary schools. Some say that introducing element of choice
and competition would bring the system down. But, it works so well at
the college level. School choice started in Milwaukee in 1990. Two
types of good schools: Magnet and Private. Staying in public schools
was a recipe for disaster. Williams came up with a program that let 1%
of public school kids to use a portion of state funds to pay for a
non-sectarian school. Bert Grover imposed regulations on private
schools to weaken the program. Not a friend of kids despite the name!
Lawsuit did not succeed. Program was expanded in 1995 and religious
schools were added. Kids in program are graduating and doing well.
School choice provides educational life preserver. Only program that
lets kids leave bad schools to go to good schools today. There's a
better reason to support school choice. It has proven to improve
quality of public school. Florida has a different type of school
choice. Schools are ranked from A to F. If a school fails 4 years in
a row, students are allowed to leave the school for a better school at
public expense. At first, only a few schools were given F's. Those
that were given F's, but they worked to get off of the F list. Many
schools improved system because they feared vouchers. Program has had
statewide impact on improving school performance. Research at Harvard
has shown that public schools that are close to competition do better.
National Educational Association has raised money to go against
program. But, school choice has had more support. In CT, Lieberman
has been a supporter of school choice, except for the time that he was
running for VP. Bolick thinks that schools are in a state of
emergency. Bolick's high school, Hillside High, is now the 5th
school from the bottom in NJ. If a kid is successful after graduating
from HHS, it's not because of it, but despite it. He tells the body
of an anecdote. After 12 years of litigation, won case for school
choice in Supreme Court. Still fighting on state constitution level.
He had kids physically present in courtroom. The bus that brought the
kids to the Wisconsin Supreme Court broke down. When he went to speak,
bus arrived. They looked in through the glass doors. Thinks it's a
metaphor for what happens in public schools. It's our moral
obligation to bring those kids in.

The Chairman of the Progressive Party says that she went to a FL public
school. Schools were given grades according to standardized tests.
Teachers taught for the test. People weren't fixing the schools, but
trying to make a grade.
Bolick: doesn't attach himself to any particular testing device.
But, the lady said they were TEACHING to this test. Whether the test
is good or not, FL is doing better on national tests and systemic
changes.

The Chair of the Liberal Party says that there is a logistical problem
with argument. Won't every parent want kids to go to best schools?
Private schools will be flooded. Best schools will become more
selective. Best private schools won't want to take low income public
school kids, are we going to force them to?
Bolick: if a school accepts to participate in program, they have to
accept any kid that is selected on a random basis. Most of the schools
in the program aren't the elite private schools. These schools were
meant to cater to low-income students. Supply of schools isn't
finite and market has responded.

Ms. Lindsay Bliss brings up Project Choice. It took a select number of
students to suburban schools. They didn't do better at these
schools. Kids were in program because of parents. They didn't want
to leave friends and community. Comments?
Bolick: doesn't know the project very well. Inner district choice
should be on the table. There is a disadvantage in sending kids far
from home. Greatest indicator of success is parental
involvement...harder to have this if school is far away. School choice
programs need to open opportunities in the community. Low-income
families want good schools in their community.

The Floorleader of the Left agrees that geography is a concern. Thinks
that Bolick is talking about perfect market situation. We're not
going to see 10 private schools in one community. What happens when
perfect market falls apart?
Bolick: Hasn't seen that happen and program is still young. In
Milwaukee, there has been a proliferation of private schools and public
charter schools. One example is a block that has 4 schools on each
corner. None of them existed prior to school choice program. DC
allows schools to apply their admissions criteria. It's the only
city where elite private schools have chosen to join program. They
already provided scholarships, but scholarship money is being spread
out.

Mr. Jamie Kirchick says that the problem is the monopoly of labor
unions. In CA, teachers HAVE to be part of the union. Why are unions
opposed, how much money are they putting into this and is it worth it?
Bolick: Agrees that it's the biggest problem. They're reactionary,
they lie, and are hysterical. This is really, really, bad. It
threatens to take away our #1 standing in the world. We beat them in
US Supreme Court. Beat them in state legislatures around the country.
They said that Milwaukee will become Bosnia or Northern Ireland because
of the religious strife brought by school choice.

The President of the Yale Political Union moves that we thank Mr.
Bolick for a fine maiden speech on floor of Yale Political Union.

Speaking in the negative, the Treasurer, Mr. Andy Krause wants to go
over standard arguments of school choice. Bolick has made it sound
good. Some students will benefit. Some will be worse off. Overall,
it's not the best solution. Fundamental principle of public schools
is that they're obligated to educate all students. This is different
from private schools. When programs exist, like vouchers, money used
to pay private schools is taken away from public schools. Public
schools aren't set up so that you can take away one unit of money and
move it around. Problem is seen with special education students.
Money has been taken from non-special education students in order to
maintain special education because there's less money all around.
Many private schools have said that they would be opposed to the
program if they have to take students with special needs. School
choice takes students out of secular institutions into religious
institutions. In a perfect market system, you have choice to send kids
to any schools. But, many of the schools in inner city are religious.

The Director of Campus Relations considers himself pretty liberal. But
he thinks that we should set the religious issue aside because school
issue is much more important.
Krause: public funding shouldn't be directed to religious
institutions. We're directly funding ideas that we don't allow to
be taught in public schools.

The Vice President says that we can appease the Treasurer's concerns
by charging less taxes.
Krause: goes against public school obligation to teach all kids.
There's only so much money that's being used for public schools.
You're still taking away money from that...that would be diminishing
their opportunity.

The Floorleader of the Right asks if we can consider that a small
percentage of people in public schools have special needs. We can just
fix that some other way.
Krause: In inner city schools, number of special need students is much
higher. Sometimes, 40-50% of money is being spent on them. We can
pass laws that will give money to special need students, but we still
are hurting the system. Creating a caste system...special need schools
and private schools.

Mr. Alexander Yergin gives the next speech in the affirmative. In DC,
public schools are failing special education kids. Therefore, there
are schools specifically for special education students. DC will fund
for kids to go this school. Thinks it's better for them to be in a
school where teachers are specially trained to deal with them. Much
better to have independent schools for special education students. US
public school system is in a crisis. Solution is in accountability.
No Child Left Behind has inherent problems with just using tests, such
as teaching for tests, bias, etc. Best way to have accountability, is
by having a system of choice. Parents can choose to move kids to a
better school. Should link funding to schools through how many kids
they retain. Why should US parents be forced to fund failing
schools...shouldn't they be able to get money back and spend it on
better schools? Large minority population still held down in society.
Creating a market for schools would fix the problem. If we want to
maintain our position, we need to fix the system.

Ms. Shari Wiseman was wondering if Mr. Yergin could detail his personal
experience with DC public schools, if any, and the presence of special
education students.
Yergin: admits that he never went to public school, but received
funding to be in a special need program.

The Chairman of the Progressive Party asks if special education was a
concern of No Child Left Behind?
Yergin: didn't link the two...

The Chairman of the Conservative Party doesn't get causational
relationship between every person in US getting a good education and
maintaining our place on top as a country.
Yergin: We need man power. For example, we used many engineers to
achieve what we did technologically.

A gentleman in the body asks if the relationship between funding and
retaining people is a problem. It won't help situation, it'll
bring it down...
Yergin: Doesn't see a problem if a school collapses and kids go to
better schools.

For a speech in the negative, Mr. Silas Kulkarni that his speech will
have three premises.
The first is that schools are communities, not factories.
Experimentation, competition, and failure doesn't work the same way
in communities than in products. This could have radically different
results. Second, more choice doesn't mean better choice. Private
schools aren't the best schools. Not necessarily better than public
schools. Finally, one size does not fit all. Intends to be a public
school teacher...can you tell by my choice of dress? When we talk
about vouchers, what we talk about is commercialization of public
education. Profit motive doesn't work in the same way it does when
producing products. We're trying to make people citizens. In Kung
Fu class, there was a different attitude towards Western and Asian
teachers. Hasn't heard about mechanism of how vouchers will make
things better...only argument has been competition. Competition
doesn't necessarily make things better. Supports charter school
movement. Charter schools are preferable option (not vouchers).

Mr. Will Wilson mentions that he lived in DC for a time. Taught in
lower income neighborhoods. Two places: public and catholic parochial
school. Both were poor. The atmosphere was very different.
Kulkarni: how equal were these two schools? Private school students
had parents that were willing to do more to get them there. Public
school teachers have a national pride that drives them. Doesn't
exist in private schools.

The Director of Campus Relations has no doubt that bureaucracy is what
really was the problem...not so much about rich vs poor.
Kulkarni: it's true that there are problems in bureaucracy.
Marketing and commercialization is a problem. Those that support
vouchers want privatization.

The Chairman of the Party of the Right says that in spite of being an
atheist, she thinks that religious parents should be able to provide
kids with religious education...can't have that in public education.
Kulkarni: agrees that religion is the biggest argument FOR vouchers.
Thinks commercialization is a worse harm than leaving out religion.

Speaking in the affirmative, the Floorleader of the Right, Mr. Jon
Lindsey, says that his peech has been crossed out and replaced with
responses. To his nemesis, the Floorleader of the Left, if we have a
place where people aren't using school choice, we're left with
status quo. Places that will benefit shouldn't be denied this
because some won't benefit. Admits that when he questioned the
Treasurer, he neglected ESL. To the Chair of the Liberal Party, he
assures that schools will pop up that will take the lower income
students. To Mr. Kulkarni, we can't neglect the fact that we want
some efficiency in the school system. Average private school spends
less than public schools and have better output. Real issue is that we
need to redefine what we mean by public education...doesn't have to
mean public schools. Uses analogy of government helping out, like
welfare. Says that he's ok with some welfare. Grocery stores take
welfare money just like regular money. Does it make sense to give
checks and make people buy at government owned grocery stores?

The Floorleader of the Left says that the government gives food stamps
and doesn't own stores, but the FDA makes sure things are safe. Are
we going to have national standards? Walmart sells groceries and puts
other small stores out of business...is there a correlation?
Lindsey: Supports certain restrictions on use of the money. Doesn't
think people will be turned away from public schools. Loves Walmart
questions! Lots of parallels, but Walmart doesn't raise prices
(much). Even if they do raise prices a little bit, it doesn't
compare to stores that were there before.

The President asks if there is any comparison between Walmart and
vouchers in schools?
FLR: yeah? Vouchers will increase quality, just like Walmart does!

The Chairman of the Conservative Party says that private schools are
not corporations. Not for profit. Can he talk about use of
self-regulating principles to ensure quality education.
FLR: was appalled by kids that wanted to be teachers from his
graduating class. Wants his kids to be taught by professionals, not
them! Doesn't know if it's necessary to have government regulate
schools.

In the negative, Mr. George London quotes from the Bill of Rights.
Everyone has a right to not have tax money spent to promote religion.
Went to private high school. Tuition was $21,500 and the school was on
the verge of financial collapse. There was a Catholic school that cost
$5000. If you get a voucher of $8000, won't be able to go to private
school and you end up going to a parochial school.

Mr. Piotr Prosol says that these expensive schools will have financial
aid. Does it even matter how much the voucher is for?
London: schools that have financial aid are very selective. We
didn't see any more private schools pop up.

Mr. Kulkarni is perplexed by argument. If I can send kid to parochial
school or non-religious school, how can it be unconstitutional rights
of others?
London: it's taking money away from public schools and violating
other rights.
Kulkarni: but the money was for MY kid!
London: but still! It's in the constitution...

The Vice President says founding fathers were worried about state
religion. How is it fair that tax money of religious people pays for
secular schools?
London: you seem to claim that the Bill of Rights is irrelevant.
Non-religion is not a religion.

Mr. Bolick asks if the use of Pell grants and the GI bill for religious
institutions is also unconstitutional?
London: yes.

The Floorleader of the Right asks if someone gets a welfare check, do
we have to make sure he don't buy a Bible?
London: if you buy a Bible, there's something wrong with the system.

The Director of Campus Relations rebuts the previous speech. He tells
us that he's really annoyed. We've had an excellent debate, but
sometimes what we see in YPU is that we take an argument, polarize it
and politicize it. We get too theoretical! Our current system isn't
working. We have compelling proof that vouchers will make it better.
Let's go ahead and give this a try.

On a point of information, Mr. Noah Mamis asks if it is not in fact the
case that the real problem with the YPU is that we're too chummy even
though we disagree with each other and that we're oversexed and on
drugs?
Closing Remarks: Clint Bolick
There's a proliferation of charter schools in Milwaukee...has met
many converts that have gone through charter schools and have come to
support school choice. Hopes to welcome Mr. Kulkarni into that group.
If there's a concern that special need students will fall through the
cracks, lets start with them. Private schools are communities. A
place where you have to fear for life and safety, no parental
participation, low expectation about students is not a community.
There have been failures, but this gives parents more power. Closest
analogy is to the Postal Service. They provide a public good.
They're a service has become more efficient ever since market was
opened up to FedEx, etc. Before, postal service was a joke. He says
that he has ever spoke to YPU before...has been to the Law School
before. Struck by how good the community is in this private school.

The Chair of the Liberal Party moves the previous question.

With a vote of:
Affirmative: a lot
Negative: a little
Abstention: a littler

The motion clearly passes.

The Chairman of the Conservative Party moves that we adjourn.

Respectfully submitted,
Maria Gabriela Orochena
Secretary of the Yale Political Union