Do prepositions and articles belong in the CLN field?

[Chris Whitten]

EuroAristo Group:

There is an important question that has not been fully answered.

Do place-based prepositions and other prefixes belong in the Current
Last Name (CLN) field? For example, is it "England" or "of England"?
"Anjou" or "d'Anjou"?

We have settled, definitively, that they do not belong in Last Names
at Birth (LNABs). The question is whether they belong in CLNs.

This is confusing because there can't be a definitive rule for CLNs.
It's not an "always" or "never" thing. Nobody thinks that every
surname that could have a preposition should have it included in the
CLN. And we have discussed and agreed upon cases where the surname
could have a preposition but it shouldn't be included in the CLN.

The issue is how to decide, and who should make the decision.

---
HOW TO DECIDE

What rules guide the decision?

This is the main style guide for name fields:
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Name_Fields

And this is a new draft of a style guide just for our group:
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Name_Fields_for_European_Aristocrats

I should have created the latter page much, much sooner. The basic
Name Fields page was woefully incomplete and easy to misinterpret. It
was actually misleading on the question at hand, up until yesterday.

The current rule, as published at
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Name_Fields_for_European_Aristocrats#Current_Last_Name
is:
For people who are known by last names that are commonly prefaced
by prepositions ("de," "d'," "von," "van," "of," etc.) or articles
("the," "le," etc.), the Current Last Name should include that
prefacing preposition or article if in the judgment of the Profile
Manager it is the most common way to refer to the person in the profile.
For example, Roger de Mowbray, while his Last Name at Birth is Mowbray,
has de Mowbray as his Current Last Name.

This could use still more clarification. We need to discuss more cases
as a group. We need to see if we can distill general rules from the
conclusions of these specific discussions. Then we need to publish the
examples and the rules.

---
WHO SHOULD DECIDE?

This EuroAristo group should decide.

Practically speaking, decisions need to be made by the person doing
the editing. This is usually the manager who has taken responsibility
for the royal house. These house managers are listed at
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:European_Aristocratic_Ancestors_User_Group

If you disagree with what the manager is doing, or if you're the
manager and you're not sure, it should be discussed in the group.

Hopefully, the discussions will lead to conclusions that can be
published, at least as examples if not as general rules.


Onward and upward,

Chris

--
Chris Whitten, WikiTreer-in-Chief
http://www.WikiTree.com/wiki/Contact_us#Chris

[Lindsay Stough]

Wow, Chris, amazing summary information!
 
I cant see how "England" would make sense as a CLN at all... "of England" would be much better, in my opinion.
 
For example: Edward of England, LNAB Plantagenet, CLN "of England"... I dont think anyone would think he should be called Edward England... Edward of England makes much more sense.
 
From Roger's discussion the other day, I thought it was a complete and decided issue that CLN would include de, of, etc... I vote AGAIN for this.
 
Having LNAB=CLN unless the profile person only has one name/version makes no sense to me... we should use the fields we are given in a useful manner, not just duplicate them all.
 
Since we are talking about CLN here, to be clear on CLN, I vote that it should have de, of, etc within CLN. CLN as Roger talked about on Anjou should be what they were referred to as, in their time. If Ralph Neville referred to himself as Ralph de Neville, CLN should be "de Neville" while LNAB should be Neville (always without).
 
 
I would prefer that John of Gaunt show on his profile as John of Gaunt instead of John Plantagenet or even John Gaunt... John Gaunt being the WORST of the options in my opinion.
 
 

 

> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:00:03 -0400
> Subject: [WikiEuroAristo] Do prepositions and articles belong in the CLN field?
> From: cwhi...@gmail.com
> To: wikieur...@googlegroups.com

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[Lindsay Stough]

Major kudos on the name fields for EuroAristo page as well... just finished reading that, too...
 
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Name_Fields_for_European_Aristocrats
 
I encourage EVERYONE in the group to take a read... Great refresher.
 

---

From: wutam...@hotmail.com
To: wikieur...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [WikiEuroAristo] Do prepositions and articles belong in the CLN field?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:17:46 -0400

[Allen Minix]

My thoughts exactly!  I hate to continue with the Plantagenet examples (it's a target rich environment), but to me, Richard of York and Lionel of Antwerp make far more sense to me than Richard York and Lionel Antwerp.  I can't think of anyone who would search for them without the preposition.  Since the form of the name including the preposition is what most folks would recognize, it also serves as a form of disambiguation.  If you're viewing a list of profiles that include individuals with the same LNAB (where LNAB=CLN), having the preposition makes the profile pop.

One guideline that I try to use personally is that I have my own definition of CLN to supplement the official one. I know it is Current Last Name, but I also like to think of it as Common Last Name.  What would the individual been most widely or commonly known as?  When I take that into account, sometimes the preposition just makes more sense.

Thanks again Chris for bringing this up and for the work on the guidelines!

-Allen

On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 5:17:46 PM UTC-5, Lindsay Stough wrote:

Wow, Chris, amazing summary information!
 
I cant see how "England" would make sense as a CLN at all... "of England" would be much better, in my opinion.
 
For example: Edward of England, LNAB Plantagenet, CLN "of England"... I dont think anyone would think he should be called Edward England... Edward of England makes much more sense.
 
From Roger's discussion the other day, I thought it was a complete and decided issue that CLN would include de, of, etc... I vote AGAIN for this.
 
Having LNAB=CLN unless the profile person only has one name/version makes no sense to me... we should use the fields we are given in a useful manner, not just duplicate them all.
 
Since we are talking about CLN here, to be clear on CLN, I vote that it should have de, of, etc within CLN. CLN as Roger talked about on Anjou should be what they were referred to as, in their time. If Ralph Neville referred to himself as Ralph de Neville, CLN should be "de Neville" while LNAB should be Neville (always without).
 
 
I would prefer that John of Gaunt show on his profile as John of Gaunt instead of John Plantagenet or even John Gaunt... John Gaunt being the WORST of the options in my opinion.
 
 

 

> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:00:03 -0400
> Subject: [WikiEuroAristo] Do prepositions and articles belong in the CLN field?
> From: cwhi...@gmail.com

> To: wikieuroaristo@googlegroups.com

> To post to this group, send email to WikiEuroAristo@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to WikiEuroAristo+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Chris Whitten]

Thanks, Allen! And thank you, as I mentioned to you privately, for the
work that you've done on categorization.

How come you're not listed as the manager of any houses?
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:European_Aristocratic_Ancestors_User_Group

Chris

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[Allen Minix]

Glad to be able to help!  As for the houses, I actually got pulled in by Lindsay and Roger helping with the Plantagenets and we all took individual profiles (it was before everyone took whole houses).  I have to admit that I stopped taking on any new ones earlier in the year, so that's why I don't have a house.  I had an issue with merging notices being ignored and days of work getting merged away by folks who refused to follow the "group consensus" mantra of WikiEuroAristo, so I told Lindsay I was going back to working on south Georgia genealogy for a while and would just maintain the LNAB's that I had already taken until things changed.  I hated doing it, but I'm stretched thin between work and family as it is, and it was really discouraging to see tons of work cast away because it didn't fit an individual's personal tastes.  Such is the way of collaboration, I suppose... (lol)

Thanks again,

-Allen

[Lindsay Coleman]

Just to further clarify this group discussion is for ALL PROFILES  related to the EuroAristo group, NOT specific ones...

 

PLEASE group members, have your opinions heard.

 

Right now votes are:

 

2 votes for CLN having of, de, von, etc in them... This means Edward of England, LNAB Plantagenet would have CLN “of England” ... therefore displaying and Edward of England

 

0 votes for CLN not having of, de, von, etc in them... This means Edward of England, LNAB Plantagenet would have CLN “England”... therefore displaying as Edward England.

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--
Chris Whitten, WikiTreer-in-Chief
http://www.WikiTree.com/wiki/Contact_us#Chris

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[Roger Travis]

Just to confirm what I'm sure everyone knows, I'm of the opinion that prepositions and articles belong in CLN. The examples given by others are persuasive for me. In cases where there is a question of in what language the preposition or articles should appear, I think the ultimate discretion should lie with the manager, but that special weight should be given 1) to the common usage of the person's day (thus "de Mowbray," "of Gaunt"); 2) to the native language of the person in the profile (thus "d'Anjou," "de Normandie"); 2) to the modern language of the region in which that person was born and/or lived (thus, for Charlemagne, "des Francs"). None of those three should supersede the judgment of the manager, however.

Roger 

[Lindsay Coleman]

Just to clarify on this, a slight bit, that “Manager” in almost all instances within the confines of the EuroAristo group means HOUSE/LNAB MANAGER as assigned on

 

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:European_Aristocratic_Ancestors_User_Group

 

as all profiles related to the group, theoretically, will end up under house managers.

 

There is no reason to argue the use of preposition etc on an unassigned profile as the manager on it has yet to be assigned... but if you want to take over that LNAB and manage that entire LNAB as it relates to EuroAristo... PLEASE DO! (shameless plug for more help!)

 

 

Sorry to keep clarifying everything but I would rather over clarify than leave people confused.

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[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

Everyone,
I obviously misunderstood the decisions made back in January. Using a
prefix in CLN is what I wanted then. At that time, I must have posted
my opinion to the wrong thread, since it is not being cited now.
As the issue is being worded in these messages, that is the only
reasonable way to go.
Kathy

[Lindsay]

as the issue is being worded? can you explain? its there something more we could clarify on the subject?


Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G Touch

>   Practically speaking, decisionsneed to be made by the person doing

[Lianne Lavoie]

I know lots of clarification has already happened in this thread, but does anyone not completely understand the issue we're discussing? I want us to come to a conclusion that everyone understands and is willing to stick to.

 

Kathy, your last response suggests that you feel the issue has changed from what's been debated in the past. Could you be more specific?

 

Thanks,

Lianne

[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

This is how it is expressed now, in Roger's words: "1) to the common

usage of the person's day (thus "de Mowbray," "of Gaunt"); 2) to the
native language of the person in the profile (thus "d'Anjou," "de
Normandie"); 2) to the modern language of the region in which that
person was born and/or lived (thus, for Charlemagne, "des Francs")."

This is what I wanted back in January. I did not keep all the email
threads to see where I messed up then, either in my expressing clearly
what I wanted or in the response that led me to believe a different
decision had been reached.

Kathy