no morals here
modernjazz
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Just learning about atheism. I can understand the anti-Christian nature
of atheism, but what do atheists teach re: morals? In the absence of
religion, how do atheist people establish a moral framework? Because
whether one believes in God or not, much of what the Christian church
teaches about helping others is valuable. It's a better world when
people care for each other, and help each other out, and respect one
another. And life is better IMO individually when we have some sort of
moral base to help us avoid harmful behavior; for example I could take
drugs all day, or not. What does it matter? But if I do, I either
become a miserable loser or Charlie Parker ~ depends on my knowledge of
altered blues chromaticism.
Psycho Dave
modernjazz wrote:
> Searched for the word morals on this newsgroup. This is kind of funny:
>
> Your search - morals - did not match any documents.
>
We generally have not had many discussions on the topic of morals,
because most of the discussion here tends to be "Hey, guess what I read
in this Christian newsgroup?".
It's far less formal here than heady philosophical discussions.
>
> Just learning about atheism. I can understand the anti-Christian nature
> of atheism,
>
Atheism is not anti-Christian. Christians are merely
anti-non-Christians, and tend to be dismissive of anything atheists say
in general. I am not anti-anything, as much as I am anti-bronze-age
mentality. People who respond to opposing viewpoints by demonizing them
(like many religious people tend to do) or being dismissive are of a
much more primitive mindset, and need to be taught how to behave in the
21st century.
> but what do atheists teach re: morals? In the absence of
> religion, how do atheist people establish a moral framework?
Your first mistake is assuming that religion is the origin of morality.
I believe that human morals are fluid, and that they go back to the
stone age, and maybe even earlier in human development. I do not
believe that religions or gods are the origin of morals. It is very
easy to see other animal cultures seemingly behaving according to
morals of their own -- morals which mirror ours in fascinating ways. As
the old Latin poem goes:
Omnis Mundi Creatora,
Quasi Liber Et Pictura,
Morbis est in Speculum.
Nostrae vitae, nostrae mortis,
Nostri status, nostri sortis,
fidele signaculum!
All of the world's creatures
Like a book or picture,
Are like a mirror of ourselves.
Our life, our death,
Our status, Our health,
faithfully represented!
Indeed, there are much more basic, social reasons for certain morals,
and I believe that religions both tried to explain morals, as well as
tried to make up new morals, based on the whims of various leaders.
> Because
> whether one believes in God or not, much of what the Christian church
> teaches about helping others is valuable.
Unfortunately, if you took a snapshot of the vast majority of
Evangelical fundamentalist Christians and conservatives in America, you
would clearly see that for the most part, poor people are castigated as
lazy, unworthy, and sinful, and many people are conned by churches that
are more like businesses into simply printing up more bibles or giving
money to a general fund that is used for unspecified church business.
American Christians are stingy, and have no problem preaching to a
starving person, rather than giving him food.
> It's a better world when
> people care for each other, and help each other out, and respect one
> another.
I agree! If only I got that impression when talking to American
Evangelicals. MOst of the evangelical Christians I've talked to seem to
be very hateful, and so extreme in their political beliefs that they
cannot get beyond it. They talk about homosexuals and abortion and
capital punishment with a great deal of anger and frustration.
The other problem I see is the arrogance. IN many of my dialogs with
Christians, they are ALWAYS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING, even when you show
them clear documentation that they are wrong. they are more apt to
declare that your documentation is farudulent than they are to actually
read it and research the source. They seem to have a habit of assuming
that whatever they believe is truth, and that if the facts prove
otherwise, then damn the facts.
>And life is better IMO individually when we have some sort of
> moral base to help us avoid harmful behavior; for example I could take
> drugs all day, or not. What does it matter? But if I do, I either
> become a miserable loser or Charlie Parker ~ depends on my knowledge of
> altered blues chromaticism.
This is another re-occuring theme in Chrsitians -- If you don't believe
in their religion, then the only possible alternative is to be a
drug-addict, alcoholic, sexual predator, rapist, or maniac. They always
couch things in false dichotomies like that -- It's either follow
Jesus, or be a junkie on Herion, It's either obey god's law and have
faith, or commit suicide, It's either be one with the lord, or become
an alcoholic.
I find that such things from the mouths of Christians tell a lot more
about them than it does about us. It tells me that they have no concept
of moderation, no concept of the gray areas, or of moral dilemmas, no
concept that there is someplace BETWEEN total goodness and total evil.
TiradeFaction
Psycho Dave wrote:
> modernjazz wrote:
> > Searched for the word morals on this newsgroup. This is kind of funny:
> >
> > Your search - morals - did not match any documents.
> >
>
> We generally have not had many discussions on the topic of morals,
> because most of the discussion here tends to be "Hey, guess what I read
> in this Christian newsgroup?".
>
Actually ModernJazz, we haven't had many discussions period, this group
is only semi-active, but i'm glad you posted, means more activity!
modernjazz
- I couldn't resist a little joke. Atheists can laugh at themselves
right?
Anyway - I'm just a guy who plays Christian music professionally among
other things... been doing it for many years and it's smoke free and
one of the best paying gigs in town. I don't sing - just a rhythm
player, and I get called for a lot of jobs. Some of it's non-Christian
too - musicals and what not, but I now have a reputation in that genre
because I know all the songs, and play pretty well, and I don't want to
lose my job over a little ideological difference.
I have been a Christian off and on for a long time. Right now it's off
- but as an "insider" I feel I have a reasonable insight into the
church bad and good...
I notice a lot of folks perceiving the "Christian right" in
caricatures. I think as a political strategy it works; the more the
public perceives evangelicals as being ridiculous, foolish, and
hypocritical, the better for their opponents. But it's mostly false
IMO.
Their are plenty of Christians like that. But as a musician I guess I
tend to hang with a different type of Christian... mostly nice people
that I trust and can count on as friends, and folks who know a good
fuzzbox.
I think many Christians live in a bubble and don't have an
understanding or an open mind towards other points of view. It
certainly works both ways. (Some) Non-Christians try to feel better by
ridiculing people who are more conservative, or who believe in God, or
who are more closed minded, but I don't find that very attractive.
If anything is ridiculous, it's that we exist and have souls
apparently, and great knowledge and have no earthly idea how it
could've occurred.We have theories. I may die tomorrow and may have no
better grasp of real truth than I did at age 12. Is it so tough to
understand that people will try to explain it all through a concept of
a deity?
I think another misconception is that Christians are anti-science. One
of my first friends in church was a guy who told me he was in
"manufacturing" and I said, what do y'all make and he goes, DNA.
Founded a Biotech company that manufactures DNA, analyzes it and ships
it out Fedex. Now one of the leading Biotech companies out of Austin.
There are plenty more Christians like him... maybe not enough. But a
love and respect for science doesn't make believeing in a God
impossible. There could be a God.
Personally I am wanting to learn more about how disparate groups can
come together and better understand each other and even like each
other. That's why a discussion of a kind of human morality interests
me, that exists outside of any formal religion, but belongs to all
human beings. A kind of starting point. Do I have to become a Buddhist
to learn about what parts of their world has value? I hope not. I don't
want to become a Buddhist but I wouldn't mind learning whatever they
may know that could help me out as a man. They make some pretty nice
ocean-front hangouts... that could be good for me ;) but what's up with
the wood block - could ya maybe add a conga and a clave?
Do I have to become a Christian to believe in the 10 commandments? Of
course not but that's the way it's portrayed. I appreciated what
Psycho Dave had to say on the subject of morality.
On Oct 17, 1:15 pm, "TiradeFaction" <Tiradefact...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Psycho Dave wrote:
> > modernjazz wrote:
> > > Searched for the word morals on this newsgroup. This is kind of funny:
>
> > > Your search - morals - did not match any documents.
>
> > We generally have not had many discussions on the topic of morals,
> > because most of the discussion here tends to be "Hey, guess what I read
> > in this Christian newsgroup?".Actually ModernJazz, we haven't had many discussions period, this group
Psycho Dave
modernjazz wrote:
> he he - yes I realized later that the group only has 15 members. Still
> - I couldn't resist a little joke. Atheists can laugh at themselves
> right?
Pretty much
> Anyway - I'm just a guy who plays Christian music professionally among
> other things... been doing it for many years and it's smoke free and
> one of the best paying gigs in town.
Where abouts? What instruments?
> I don't sing - just a rhythm
> player, and I get called for a lot of jobs. Some of it's non-Christian
> too - musicals and what not, but I now have a reputation in that genre
> because I know all the songs, and play pretty well, and I don't want to
> lose my job over a little ideological difference.
>
> I have been a Christian off and on for a long time. Right now it's off
> - but as an "insider" I feel I have a reasonable insight into the
> church bad and good...
Similarly here. I used to be religious until I realized that most of
what believers were expected to believe didn't make rational, logical
sense. What's worse, newer, more folky versions of Christianity stay
far away from proper logic and reason, and actually discourage it,
because it is "one of the tools that the devil uses to cause doubt".
>
> I notice a lot of folks perceiving the "Christian right" in
> caricatures.
>
That is no thanks to the Christian Right themselves. After all,
Evangelical Fundies do a darn good job of appearing to be
mean-spirited, vindictive prigs, who think that education that doesn't
overtly teach you to be Christian is evil..
> I think as a political strategy it works; the more the
> public perceives evangelicals as being ridiculous, foolish, and
> hypocritical, the better for their opponents. But it's mostly false
> IMO.
I agree -- Just as the Tennesee courtroom let William Jennings Bryan
make a complete arse of himself, so the Religious Right has already
started sliding down the same path. All we need is for a few more
leaders to do what Falwell and Robertson did -- make antisemitic
statements, or proclaim that a certain disaster is because of "liberals
and lesbians".
> Their are plenty of Christians like that. But as a musician I guess I
> tend to hang with a different type of Christian... mostly nice people
> that I trust and can count on as friends, and folks who know a good
> fuzzbox.
Musicians tend to be nice people in general. I am a musician, too, and
so far, have only met a few people who I would not want to hang out
with and play music with.
> I think many Christians live in a bubble and don't have an
> understanding or an open mind towards other points of view. It
> certainly works both ways. (Some) Non-Christians try to feel better by
> ridiculing people who are more conservative, or who believe in God, or
> who are more closed minded, but I don't find that very attractive.
It all depends. If a Christian (or even non-Christian or atheist) comes
out in a forum and starts saying really dumb things, and proclaiming
that they know the truth, and everyone else is just too stupid, or they
otherwise make asses of themselves, then they certainly deserve
whatever ridicule comes their way. It is often times hard to resist a
good joke that someone sets themselves up for.
> If anything is ridiculous, it's that we exist and have souls
> apparently, and great knowledge and have no earthly idea how it
> could've occurred.We have theories. I may die tomorrow and may have no
> better grasp of real truth than I did at age 12. Is it so tough to
> understand that people will try to explain it all through a concept of
> a deity?
I'm really amazed by the people who try to explain everything, and who
will never be open to the possibility that (a) They could be mistaken,
(b) They might not know jack shit about what they're talking about, (c)
that people in the middle ages knew less than we do. But it's the
arrogance of the people who never accept that they can be wrong about
anything that really can be annoying -- especially when they have
little or no education or experience in what they're talking about.
> I think another misconception is that Christians are anti-science. One
> of my first friends in church was a guy who told me he was in
> "manufacturing" and I said, what do y'all make and he goes, DNA.
> Founded a Biotech company that manufactures DNA, analyzes it and ships
> it out Fedex. Now one of the leading Biotech companies out of Austin.
> There are plenty more Christians like him... maybe not enough. But a
> love and respect for science doesn't make believeing in a God
> impossible. There could be a God.
They are a rare breed. Too many of the people in the growing
evangelical movement are anti-science, as well as
anti-higher-education. We really need to attack the evangelical
movement and expose it for the movement of idiocy and fascism that it
really is, and encourage more people to join religions that are less
extreme and less dangerous.
> Personally I am wanting to learn more about how disparate groups can
> come together and better understand each other and even like each
> other. That's why a discussion of a kind of human morality interests
> me, that exists outside of any formal religion, but belongs to all
> human beings. A kind of starting point. Do I have to become a Buddhist
> to learn about what parts of their world has value? I hope not. I don't
> want to become a Buddhist but I wouldn't mind learning whatever they
> may know that could help me out as a man. They make some pretty nice
> ocean-front hangouts... that could be good for me ;) but what's up with
> the wood block - could ya maybe add a conga and a clave?
Buddhism, like Christianity, has different layers to it. On the
surface, you get some things that sound useful and wise, and as you dig
deeper in to the faith, you start learning things that are more
esoteric, less intuitive, and which can sound strange or even
irrational. For example, on the surface, Budhism has really
well-refined philosophy that is universal -- it can work for both
religious and atheistic people. Dig a little deeper, though, and you
get the stuff about Reincarnation, Bhodisatvas, and other stuff. It
starts making less and less sense, or less and less PRACTICAL sense.
Christianity is similar, and so isn't Islam. On the surface, you hear
nice things that most people agree with, but dig deeper and you get
into the virgin birth, resurrection of the dead, the 17 virgins given
to martyrs, the laws that say we should just kill people who commit
certain sins, etc. It all starts getting weird and impractical.
>
> Do I have to become a Christian to believe in the 10 commandments? Of
> course not but that's the way it's portrayed. I appreciated what
> Psycho Dave had to say on the subject of morality.
>
Thank You. I only believe in 2 of the 10 commandments, but I'm willing
to bet that 99% of the world's people believe in the same 2
commandments. Obviously those two commandments were universal to
humanity long before there was a Bible or religions.
The two commandments -- you shall not murder, and you shall not steal.
LoreAlmighty
Evangelical fundamentalist Christians and conservatives in America, you
would clearly see that for the most part, poor people are castigated as
lazy, unworthy, and sinful, and many people are conned by churches that
are more like businesses into simply printing up more bibles or giving
money to a general fund that is used for unspecified church business.
American Christians are stingy, and have no problem preaching to a
starving person, rather than giving him food. "
That's true, Dave. Christians throughout history have taught that
peasents are worthless and lazy, and oppressed them very harshely, on
the grounds that they're lazy. Just look up what Martin Luther thought
of peasents.
modernjazz
I play electric bass and fretless bass in Houston.
Psycho Dave
modernjazz wrote:
> "Where abouts? What instruments? "
>
> I play electric bass and fretless bass in Houston.
TEXAS?!?!
Darn!
No wonder you're on-again and off-again in the Christianity department.
Texas is the veritable buckle on the Bible Belt. It's very hard to go
along with the crowd in a state that prides itself on it's
individualism and do-it-yourselfness, but throw in the arrogance of
Christian Fundamentalism, and it's doubly hard to find yourself. When
people tell me they live in Texas (and not in Autsin, Texas), I
immediately feel sorry for them. :)
I don't know what it is about Texas, but when I first heard that Bush
was a dry-drunk fundamentalist and he was from Texas, I said "It
figures".
I thought that Lyndon Johnson was a nasty enough person, because of his
Texas one-upmanship and arrogance, but he's a positively wonderful
human being compared to Bush.