Traffic Safety and Emergency Vehicles
Jerry Foster
As an example, here's a pic of paramedics going the wrong way through the 571 / Clarksville intersection on the way to a call. The four lane design, same as currently exists on Canal Pte Blvd, has no shoulder or bike lanes, so cars have nowhere to go to get out of the way.
With a road diet, the cars would have a bike lane (6 ft is proposed for Canal Pte Blvd) to pull over into. How wide is your car? My Chevy Silverado full size pickup is 6.5 ft wide not including the mirrors. The road diet design is an improvement over the four lane/no shoulder design, from the perspective of giving cars room to make way for emergency vehicles.
More important, however, is that the traffic system has already failed (by definition) when a crash happens, and the much more important question is how to prevent crashes, rather than the secondary issue of how to get emergency vehicles to a crash more quickly. A road diet is proven to reduce crashes, so wins both as a preventative solution and as a quicker way to get emergency vehicles to a crash site.
Thoughts?
Jerry Foster
PS - just to answer one question that will inevitably come up, I was an EMT with the Plainsboro Rescue Squad for 5 years, back before children, in the 1980s, and drove an ambulance to crash sites.
John Church
Many thanks to Jerry for his service with the Plainsboro rescue squad. However, I would submit that bulky fire trucks are not the same as ambulances. Also, generalities (“A road diet is proven to reduce crashes”) are inherently suspect and might well not apply to specific situations such as CPB.
Again, as Mr. Lerner said on Monday evening, there have been two separate fatalities on New Village Road, which has a road diet.
Both fire chiefs who spoke at the March 21st meeting were clearly very nervous about a road diet on CPB and how it could limit their ability to respond promptly. You can easily imagine a very difficult situation at the intersection of Alexander and CPB with only one congested lane available and a large truck trying to get in. With four travel lanes, cars can readily pull over to the right lane and let the trucks by.
Mayor Hsueh is always talking about how he relies on the professionals that are on his staff, or are outside contractors who are paid by agreements that he promoted and signed. But the fire chiefs, who don’t report to the mayor, are also professionals. Because of the employer-employee relationship, employees are always reluctant to voice opinions in public that are different from what their employers want them to say. They may do this in private, and often do, but not in public. I could tell you stories about what happens when subordinates challenge their supervisors in public.
John
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Sandra Shapiro
John Church
That’s just the point: with four travel lanes, both lanes would be less congested than with just two. People in the left lane would find it much easier to pull over than with the road completely clogged if there were only one travel lane in each direction – and it would undoubtedly be more clogged with the road diet.
And it’s beside the point whether Village Road (new or otherwise) was originally as it is now or whether it was changed later. The fact is, the accidents occurred when in the road diet configuration. That doesn’t mean of course that the road diet necessarily CAUSED the accidents, but it does seem that it at least contributed.
The major point about fire trucks not being able to quickly get into a road-dieted CPB from Alexander Road (which is where they would be coming from) has not been addressed. This seems so obvious that there should be no argument about it.
Not to belabor what again should be very obvious, but few people bike in bad weather. And West Windsor has plenty of it. You’re looking at completely wasted space for a very significant part of the year. As Mr. Spock and others have said, the needs of the many DO ouweigh the needs of the few.
John
Sandra Shapiro
Virginia Manzari
From: wwcommunit...@googlegroups.com [mailto:wwcommunitydiscussion@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foster
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:30 AM
To: West Windsor Community Discussion
Subject: Traffic Safety and Emergency Vehicles
Monday night's Twp Council meeting had a lot of talk about emergency services and what road design helps get emergency vehicles to the scene of a crash more quickly.
As an example, here's a pic of paramedics going the wrong way through the 571 / Clarksville intersection on the way to a call. The four lane design, same as currently exists on Canal Pte Blvd, has no shoulder or bike lanes, so cars have nowhere to go to get out of the way.
With a road diet, the cars would have a bike lane (6 ft is proposed for Canal Pte Blvd) to pull over into. How wide is your car? My Chevy Silverado full size pickup is 6.5 ft wide not including the mirrors. The road diet design is an improvement over the four lane/no shoulder design, from the perspective of giving cars room to make way for emergency vehicles.
More important, however, is that the traffic system has already failed (by definition) when a crash happens, and the much more important question is how to prevent crashes, rather than the secondary issue of how to get emergency vehicles to a crash more quickly. A road diet is proven to reduce crashes, so wins both as a preventative solution and as a quicker way to get emergency vehicles to a crash site.
Thoughts?
Jerry Foster
PS - just to answer one question that will inevitably come up, I was an EMT with the Plainsboro Rescue Squad for 5 years, back before children, in the 1980s, and drove an ambulance to crash sites.
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Alison Miller
From: John Church <j.ch...@mindspring.com>
To: WWCommunit...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 10:58 AM
Subject: RE: Traffic Safety and Emergency Vehicles
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 9:56 AM
To: WWCommunit...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Traffic Safety and Emergency Vehicles
On Apr 6, 2016, at 9:15 AM, John Church <j.ch...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Many thanks to Jerry for his service with the Plainsboro rescue squad. However, I would submit that bulky fire trucks are not the same as ambulances. Also, generalities (“A road diet is proven to reduce crashes”) are inherently suspect and might well not apply to specific situations such as CPB.
Again, as Mr. Lerner said on Monday evening, there have been two separate fatalities on New Village Road , which has a road diet.
Both fire chiefs who spoke at the March 21st meeting were clearly very nervous about a road diet on CPB and how it could limit their ability to respond promptly. You can easily imagine a very difficult situation at the intersection of Alexander and CPB with only one congested lane available and a large truck trying to get in. With four travel lanes, cars can readily pull over to the right lane and let the trucks by.Mayor Hsueh is always talking about how he relies on the professionals that are on his staff, or are outside contractors who are paid by agreements that he promoted and signed. But the fire chiefs, who don’t report to the mayor, are also professionals. Because of the employer-employee relationship, employees are always reluctant to voice opinions in public that are different from what their employers want them to say. They may do this in private, and often do, but not in public. I could tell you stories about what happens when subordinates challenge their supervisors in public.John
From: wwcommunit...@googlegroups.com [mailto:wwcommunit...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foster
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:30 AM
To: West Windsor Community Discussion
Subject: Traffic Safety and Emergency Vehicles
Monday night's Twp Council meeting had a lot of talk about emergency services and what road design helps get emergency vehicles to the scene of a crash more quickly.
As an example, here's a pic of paramedics going the wrong way through the 571 / Clarksville intersection on the way to a call. The four lane design, same as currently exists on Canal Pte Blvd , has no shoulder or bike lanes, so cars have nowhere to go to get out of the way.
With a road diet, the cars would have a bike lane (6 ft is proposed for Canal Pte Blvd ) to pull over into. How wide is your car? My Chevy Silverado full size pickup is 6.5 ft wide not including the mirrors. The road diet design is an improvement over the four lane/no shoulder design, from the perspective of giving cars room to make way for emergency vehicles.
John Church
As I have said before (letter, last issue of WWP News and during public comment at council meetings), there are both pros and cons to the road diet. You have to take both into consideration. In my opinion the cons significantly outweigh the pros.
The FHA and other agencies speak in broad generalities without taking specific local circumstances into account. We would have this situation with the road diet where large fire equipment would be seriously restricted when trying to access CPB.
The argument that this might be a rare event carries no weight with me at all. Here’s why. Some years ago I had a major lightning strike on a big oak tree in my front yard. The current went into the ground and came up through the wire that leads to a lamp near the sidewalk and into my house. It blew out an inside switch box near my front door, throwing smoking debris into my front hall. It also went throughout the house, destroying a TV and a microwave oven. There was a terrific storm going on and my land line stopped functioning as well. I called the WW fire department from my neighbor’s house as I was very concerned that there might be a fire inside a wall. They came quickly and checked with a heat detector; fortunately there was no fire, but there easily could have been one (or several) from all the damage that had occurred.
The point of this story is that in the many many years that I had already lived on this street, not even once had a fire engine come onto it except when they did the holiday Santa Claus thing. However, I was very glad that they could get here quickly as I could have been in serious trouble and even lost the house. You do not want fire equipment getting stuck in traffic and not being able to get to your house (or place of business) as fast as possible. I foresee that this could easily happen with a CPB road diet, as did the two fire chiefs who came to the March 21 work session. Please listen to them.
Andrew Hersh
Sent from my iPhone
Michael Baxter
I Divvy bike to work in Chicago. There are bike lanes, but I wouldn’t use the phrase ‘feel real safe’ when riding amongst traffic. Divvy is a huge win here – of course this is a big urban center. And, I am a big fan.
I agree w/ John – more cons than pros on a road diet. I think the smart way to do it – even though it would cost money is plan B – widen the road by adding a bike lane
Thanks,
Mike
Ps. Transit village – did that ever happen?
John Church
Hi Mike, been a long time indeed. Thanks, and glad to see that you’re still in touch.
I wouldn’t mind seeing a separate bike path, safely off the main surface, but it would be costly.
No transit village yet and I doubt that there ever will be one. Too many issues: stormwater, traffic, NJ Transit concerns, the whole nine yards. Poor plan from the get-go.
John
Michael Baxter
I’m a bit surprised the mayor hasn’t retired or been voted out. How much time, energy and money was wasted on the transit village
John – I’d vote for you if I still lived there
And, again, best wishes to all
Jerry Foster
Attached is a picture of Village Rd - imagine the car in the picture having to pull over to the right into the bike lane - is there room for a fire truck to get by? Obviously not.
Now look at the picture of SR33 in Hamilton, not too far from the Robbinsville border - this roadway is in the same configuration but it is narrower than the proposed Canal Pte Blvd reconfiguration. Now imagine a car pulled over in the shoulder - is there room for a fire truck to get by? Obviously.
SR33 in Hamilton handles far more traffic than Canal Pte Blvd has, and it does just fine.
Jerry Foster
John Church
One difference is that if the road diet goes into CPB, fire trucks would have to use the constricted entrance at Alexander Road with likely long backups. The roads shown have several other possible entrance points.
In my opinion, the housing complexes along CPB were way overbuilt for the limited access that’s available, which obviously helps to generate the high traffic. There is a much higher population density in there than in the examples shown, resulting in a significantly greater risk factor. But we are stuck with this. No wonder the fire chiefs are concerned.
This is a good example of how specific situations can override the generalities that we often see in support of road diets. Circumstances do alter cases.
John
From:
wwcommunit...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:wwcommunit...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foster
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016
8:55 PM
To: West
Windsor Community Discussion
Subject: Re: Traffic Safety and
Emergency Vehicles
The fire chiefs' concerns with Village Rd have nothing whatsoever to do
with the proposed reconfiguration design of Canal Pte Blvd, and it is a mistake to
call them both "road diets" and assume they're the same, when the
actual designs are so different.
--
John Church
Not running, but I appreciate the thought! Thanks.
