Intersec between Value Network and System Thinking?
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Juan Onetto
Aug 28, 2010, 8:59:42 PM8/28/10
to Value Networks
Does anyone see how both disciplines at some point have something in
common and can even complement?
common and can even complement?
Verna Allee
Aug 31, 2010, 11:52:33 PM8/31/10
to Value Networks
Hello Juan and welcome.
Here is a recent blog on value networks and system dynamics
http://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966
System Dynamics modeling and value network analysis are complementary
methods but very different. Boeing uses both approaches together as
part of their Lean+ toolkit. They use system dynamics modeling to
define the complex behaviors of the system and then engage managers in
value network modeling to define the roles and interactions that are
required for the system to function well.
In addition Oliver Schwabe has taught a special course in value
network modeling and system dynamics - primarily for Boeing people but
it is more broadly applicable as well.
Here is more detail on how Boeing combined the two methods
http://valuenetworks.com/public/docs/Testing%20the%20Limits%20FOT&V.pdf
Verna
Here is a recent blog on value networks and system dynamics
http://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966
System Dynamics modeling and value network analysis are complementary
methods but very different. Boeing uses both approaches together as
part of their Lean+ toolkit. They use system dynamics modeling to
define the complex behaviors of the system and then engage managers in
value network modeling to define the roles and interactions that are
required for the system to function well.
In addition Oliver Schwabe has taught a special course in value
network modeling and system dynamics - primarily for Boeing people but
it is more broadly applicable as well.
Here is more detail on how Boeing combined the two methods
http://valuenetworks.com/public/docs/Testing%20the%20Limits%20FOT&V.pdf
Verna
David Meggitt
Sep 1, 2010, 5:34:54 AM9/1/10
to Value Networks
One can defensibly state that value network thinking is both a unitary
and pluralist approach in systems thinking which is applicable to both
simple and complex situations. For reference to the SOSM (System of
systems methodologies which I have used, refer to M Jackson)
Also, systems dynamics (an updated / re-badged industrial dynamics) is
also a systems approach but more confined in its realm of
applicability.
Hope that helps.
You may also do a search within the group for further discussion on
this which took place some two years (possibly) back in time.
The example Verna has provided (and was instrumental in realising) is
a high profile case of the interaction between two systems approache.
Why do you ask!?
David
> Here is a recent blog on value networks and system dynamicshttp://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966
and pluralist approach in systems thinking which is applicable to both
simple and complex situations. For reference to the SOSM (System of
systems methodologies which I have used, refer to M Jackson)
Also, systems dynamics (an updated / re-badged industrial dynamics) is
also a systems approach but more confined in its realm of
applicability.
Hope that helps.
You may also do a search within the group for further discussion on
this which took place some two years (possibly) back in time.
The example Verna has provided (and was instrumental in realising) is
a high profile case of the interaction between two systems approache.
Why do you ask!?
David
> Here is a recent blog on value networks and system dynamicshttp://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966
>
> System Dynamics modeling and value network analysis are complementary
> methods but very different. Boeing uses both approaches together as
> part of their Lean+ toolkit. They use system dynamics modeling to
> define the complex behaviors of the system and then engage managers in
> value network modeling to define the roles and interactions that are
> required for the system to function well.
>
> In addition Oliver Schwabe has taught a special course in value
> network modeling and system dynamics - primarily for Boeing people but
> it is more broadly applicable as well.
>
> Here is more detail on how Boeing combined the two methodshttp://valuenetworks.com/public/docs/Testing%20the%20Limits%20FOT&V.pdf
> System Dynamics modeling and value network analysis are complementary
> methods but very different. Boeing uses both approaches together as
> part of their Lean+ toolkit. They use system dynamics modeling to
> define the complex behaviors of the system and then engage managers in
> value network modeling to define the roles and interactions that are
> required for the system to function well.
>
> In addition Oliver Schwabe has taught a special course in value
> network modeling and system dynamics - primarily for Boeing people but
> it is more broadly applicable as well.
>
Juan Onetto
Sep 3, 2010, 9:02:45 AM9/3/10
to Value Networks
Verna, David, thanks both for your answers!.
The reason I asked was because I was thinking of any relationship
between the 2 methodologies. And there are. I also think, as Verna
States, that both can serve as different tools, and show different
things. I will look into Boeing experience more to learn about it and
past blogs.
Thanks!!!!
The reason I asked was because I was thinking of any relationship
between the 2 methodologies. And there are. I also think, as Verna
States, that both can serve as different tools, and show different
things. I will look into Boeing experience more to learn about it and
past blogs.
Thanks!!!!
Eric Hoffer
Sep 3, 2010, 11:26:22 AM9/3/10
to value-n...@googlegroups.com
A review of this thread [1] might be of interest.
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/value-networks/browse_thread/thread/64aac2f4b2737bb0?hl=en
-Eric
--
Eric Hoffer, Second Integral LLC
Blog: http://www.secondintegral.com/axonomics
LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/erichoffer
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/value-networks/browse_thread/thread/64aac2f4b2737bb0?hl=en
-Eric
--
Eric Hoffer, Second Integral LLC
Blog: http://www.secondintegral.com/axonomics
LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/erichoffer
--
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David Meggitt
Sep 3, 2010, 3:54:50 PM9/3/10
to Value Networks
Well spotted, Eric.
John M started the thread with a simple statement which included "one
focuses
on the human element and the realities of system behavior."
Realities are also key. As Verna often said, "Will the real
organisation / project et al please stand up!"
Brilliant in its simplicity, IMHO.
David
> thread<http://groups.google.com/group/value-networks/browse_thread/thread/64...>[1]
> might be of interest.
>
> [1]http://groups.google.com/group/value-networks/browse_thread/thread/64...
> LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/erichoffer
> > value-network...@googlegroups.com<value-networks%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > .
John M started the thread with a simple statement which included "one
focuses
on the human element and the realities of system behavior."
Realities are also key. As Verna often said, "Will the real
organisation / project et al please stand up!"
Brilliant in its simplicity, IMHO.
David
> thread<http://groups.google.com/group/value-networks/browse_thread/thread/64...>[1]
> might be of interest.
>
> [1]http://groups.google.com/group/value-networks/browse_thread/thread/64...
> LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/erichoffer
> > .
David Meggitt
Sep 4, 2010, 5:22:39 AM9/4/10
to Value Networks
Eric...Activity Based Contextualization?
On Sep 3, 8:54 pm, David Meggitt <m...@davidmeggitt.com> wrote:
> Well spotted, Eric.
>
On Sep 3, 8:54 pm, David Meggitt <m...@davidmeggitt.com> wrote:
> Well spotted, Eric.
>
Eric Hoffer
Sep 5, 2010, 6:01:42 PM9/5/10
to value-n...@googlegroups.com
Hi David - That came from before I knew about VNA, and I was trying to articulate what I was calling the Second Integral - (looking at situations people were engaging in, pulling apart what each role was bringing and/or was looking to gain, and looking for ways to tweak the processes in order to enhance output for each party in the engagement situation.
--
Eric Hoffer, Second Integral LLC
eho...@secondintegral.com
>
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Value Networks" group.
To post to this group, send email to value-n...@googlegroups.com.
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--
Eric Hoffer, Second Integral LLC
Juan Onetto
Sep 6, 2010, 7:50:57 AM9/6/10
to Value Networks
Verna, again thanks for the references. So I went through most of
them.
In your blog: http://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966 you were
stating when referring to the NBC example of SD " Anything this
complex might be useful for an analyst or a project team running
scenarios - but should never be used as a general communication
device. In value network modeling we encourage people to leave the
complex visuals in the hands of the analysts"
I would say I would not 100% agree. By looking at Boeing Example I can
see a very complete and complex VN. I also believe that level detail
should not be a general communication device (it does for a more broad
and detailed analysis to implement any change).
I do think that both approaches need to be used depending on the
situation to take advantage the best we can. So, you might want to use
for example a simple Casual Loop Diagram (System Thinking tool though)
that only shows a structure and its behavior of a small part of the
system your are analyzing. Same for VN. Instead of drawing a complete
network with an overwhelming number of roles and exchanges you might
want just to concentrate in only one division or small number of teams
and use that for communication purposes. Still both methodologies will
accomplish what we are looking for.
Would this make sense?
Thanks,
Juan
> Here is a recent blog on value networks and system dynamicshttp://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966
them.
In your blog: http://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966 you were
stating when referring to the NBC example of SD " Anything this
complex might be useful for an analyst or a project team running
scenarios - but should never be used as a general communication
device. In value network modeling we encourage people to leave the
complex visuals in the hands of the analysts"
I would say I would not 100% agree. By looking at Boeing Example I can
see a very complete and complex VN. I also believe that level detail
should not be a general communication device (it does for a more broad
and detailed analysis to implement any change).
I do think that both approaches need to be used depending on the
situation to take advantage the best we can. So, you might want to use
for example a simple Casual Loop Diagram (System Thinking tool though)
that only shows a structure and its behavior of a small part of the
system your are analyzing. Same for VN. Instead of drawing a complete
network with an overwhelming number of roles and exchanges you might
want just to concentrate in only one division or small number of teams
and use that for communication purposes. Still both methodologies will
accomplish what we are looking for.
Would this make sense?
Thanks,
Juan
> Here is a recent blog on value networks and system dynamicshttp://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966
>
> System Dynamics modeling and value network analysis are complementary
> methods but very different. Boeing uses both approaches together as
> part of their Lean+ toolkit. They use system dynamics modeling to
> define the complex behaviors of the system and then engage managers in
> value network modeling to define the roles and interactions that are
> required for the system to function well.
>
> In addition Oliver Schwabe has taught a special course in value
> network modeling and system dynamics - primarily for Boeing people but
> it is more broadly applicable as well.
>
> Here is more detail on how Boeing combined the two methodshttp://valuenetworks.com/public/docs/Testing%20the%20Limits%20FOT&V.pdf
> System Dynamics modeling and value network analysis are complementary
> methods but very different. Boeing uses both approaches together as
> part of their Lean+ toolkit. They use system dynamics modeling to
> define the complex behaviors of the system and then engage managers in
> value network modeling to define the roles and interactions that are
> required for the system to function well.
>
> In addition Oliver Schwabe has taught a special course in value
> network modeling and system dynamics - primarily for Boeing people but
> it is more broadly applicable as well.
>
Verna Allee
Sep 6, 2010, 12:29:58 PM9/6/10
to Value Networks
Yes, absolutely what you are saying makes sense and reinforces the
point I was trying to make. There are many ways to work with a large
scale value network map to make it readable and accessible. In the
case of Boeing they used very small nodes and font size so when it was
enlarged it was quite readable. They also generated that larger map by
conducting a series of two days workshops with different groups that
were responsible for mapping their own "neighborhood" and then
combined them into the larger map (similar to our Merge Networks
feature in the Value Network Insights application).
I is possible to highlight only a portion of the map by graying out
the rest and leaving color only on the highlighted part. Frequently
you can isolate out different "phases" of activity within the value
network. For example when Symantec mapped their customer support
network they made four different maps of the same network showing
different phases of customer experience: purchase; new customer;
established customer; and renewal http://valuenetworks.com/docs/Symantec_v1.pdf.
The need to work creatively with the maps for communication purposes
is why we selected to create the visual output in PowerPoint and
Visio, which many people are familiar with. You can see a nice
sampling of different approaches to visuals if you search value
network in Google Images. http://bit.ly/9Ic17Q.
Verna
On Sep 6, 4:50 am, Juan Onetto <jone...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Verna, again thanks for the references. So I went through most of
> them.
>
> In your blog:http://valuenetworks.com/public/item/253966you were
point I was trying to make. There are many ways to work with a large
scale value network map to make it readable and accessible. In the
case of Boeing they used very small nodes and font size so when it was
enlarged it was quite readable. They also generated that larger map by
conducting a series of two days workshops with different groups that
were responsible for mapping their own "neighborhood" and then
combined them into the larger map (similar to our Merge Networks
feature in the Value Network Insights application).
I is possible to highlight only a portion of the map by graying out
the rest and leaving color only on the highlighted part. Frequently
you can isolate out different "phases" of activity within the value
network. For example when Symantec mapped their customer support
network they made four different maps of the same network showing
different phases of customer experience: purchase; new customer;
established customer; and renewal http://valuenetworks.com/docs/Symantec_v1.pdf.
The need to work creatively with the maps for communication purposes
is why we selected to create the visual output in PowerPoint and
Visio, which many people are familiar with. You can see a nice
sampling of different approaches to visuals if you search value
network in Google Images. http://bit.ly/9Ic17Q.
Verna
On Sep 6, 4:50 am, Juan Onetto <jone...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Verna, again thanks for the references. So I went through most of
> them.
>
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