Rap Music

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Kimberly Viducich

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Nov 27, 2007, 2:06:15 PM11/27/07
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Hi All,
My almost 9 year old daughter really likes rap music. My DH and I are very concerned about the lyrics. We know banning it isn't the answer. My dd's personality is such that if she has any inkling that we may not like something for some reason, she really wants to do it more. I was wondering if anyone has dealt with similar issues. I would really like to delve into being interested with her but then I listen to some of the lyrics and I cringe. She has an ipod with lots of songs that aren't rap, but she likes to listen to the radio in the car, and of course she wants the rap songs she hears on the radio on her ipod.Thanks
KImberly 


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Schuyler Waynforth

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Nov 27, 2007, 2:19:55 PM11/27/07
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What is it in the lyrics that concerns you? What do you believe the lyrics will lead to? Do you think if she hears the voice of misogeny in rap that she will hate herself? Do you believe that if she hears about drive by shootings, she will shoot someone? Do you protect her from all other influences that you think might have a scary outcome?
 
If her life is rich and good and engaging it is likely that she is only enjoying rap because it is enjoyable to her and not because it is something filled with the a sense that she is getting away with something, the rush of the taboo. I would listen to rap music with her. I am sure if you explored you could find rap music that you enjoyed. It is a pretty broad genre.
 
Schuyler
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www.waynforth.blogspot.com

Angela D. Burkhardt

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Nov 27, 2007, 2:27:15 PM11/27/07
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We use it (if it has bad lyrics) as an opportunity for discussing those topics. This may not work for your daughter if you believe she will embrace the negative to spite you and your dh.

Maybe present her a CD or ipod rap/hip hop that has positive messages.

Angela
________________________________
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:06:15 -0800
> From: kv...@yahoo.com
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Rap Music
> To: unschoolin...@googlegroups.com

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 27, 2007, 2:51:15 PM11/27/07
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-=-If her life is rich and good and engaging it is likely that she is
only enjoying rap because it is enjoyable to her and not because it
is something filled with the a sense that she is getting away with
something, the rush of the taboo. I would listen to rap music with
her. I am sure if you explored you could find rap music that you
enjoyed. It is a pretty broad genre.-=-

Marty likes and knows quite a bit about it and he's a pretty peaceful
guy. He knows a lot about LOTS of kinds of music.

He's played me some songs he thought I would like for one reason or
another.

Maybe families here have recommendations of things she might like.

Sandra

Kimberly Viducich

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Nov 27, 2007, 2:52:41 PM11/27/07
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We use it  (if it has bad lyrics) as an opportunity for discussing
those topics. 
 
 
I have thought about that. At 9 years old the thought of some of these topics seems premature. I will do it though if it seems like the best solution.
Kimberly

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 27, 2007, 2:53:44 PM11/27/07
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Marty recommends Run DMC, Will Smith/Fresh Prince, maybe Queen
Latifah. Missy Elliot is the female he's listened to the most but
says it's really sexual. Beyonce?

He said he's sure there are more he's just not thinking of.

Sandra

Laureen

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Nov 27, 2007, 2:58:37 PM11/27/07
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Heya!

On Nov 27, 2007 11:06 AM, Kimberly Viducich <kv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My almost 9 year old daughter really likes rap music. My DH and I are very
> concerned about the lyrics.

Ah, but not all the lyrics in "rap" are bad. One of my alltime
favorite bands, Sudden Rush, sings Hawaiian Rap. As in, some of the
lyrics in some of the songs are in the Hawaiian language. Beautiful
stuff; I could listen for hours, and sometimes I do. And many of their
songs are intensely political. I have learned so much about the
Hawaiian perspective on many historical events by listening to their
stuff. Read this abstract to a scholarly paper about them here:
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/discourse/v023/23.1akindes.pdf,
"Sudden Rush: Na Mele Paleoleo (Hawaiian Rap) as Liberatory
Discourse".

Another ethnic rap band I like, WithOut Rezervation, sings songs from
a Native American perspective. Talk about incredible material for
conversation!!!

A friend of mine who's an Irish music fan tells me "the winners write
the histories, the losers write the songs", and in rap music, there is
such an outpouring of alternative sociological statement. I'm not
crazy about a lot of the gangsta stuff, and I can see how that might
make you kind of uncomfortable, but really as a genre, rap is just
amazing stuff. Keep digging...

--
~~L!

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
http://lifewithoutschool.typepad.com/

Publishing here:
http://huntpress.com/
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Eber...@aol.com

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Nov 27, 2007, 3:41:53 PM11/27/07
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In a message dated 11/27/2007 2:18:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kv...@yahoo.com writes:
was wondering if anyone has dealt with similar issues. I would really like to delve into being interested with her but then I listen to some of the lyrics and I cringe. She has an ipod with lots of songs that aren't rap, but she likes to listen to the radio in the car, and of course she wants the rap songs she hears on the radio on her ipod.Thanks
*************
 
I'm almost 50 and LOVE rap music .... my kids don't, but I do - much to their chagrin sometimes.  Sometimes crossover hip-hop is classified as rap.  There are hard core rappers and then there is the more socially acceptable/radio play marketable variety.
 
Is your daughter buying music off the shelf or downloading it from the computer?  Downloading it from a source like Limewire can be helpful, because these shareware users will often label the version they are sharing as "clean" or "dirty".  You can find acceptable versions of a lot of songs with a "clean" label.
 
Off the shelf, CD's still carry an "explicit language" sticker or some other such "warning".
 
If she's happy with the radio version I wouldn't worry.  Like Schuyler suggested, simply "hearing" certain words will not scar her IF her life is rich with other textures and values that you have shared with her.
 
For me, listening to certain kinds of music allows me to vent, vicariously, through the music.  At any moment you can catch me listening to TI, 50 cent, Nate Dogg, Eminem, T-Pain, E-Forty, or the Ying Yang Twins ... some of it is pretty raw but at times it just really resonates with me.  Other times I can not get enough Chopin, Liszt, Greig, or Beethoven.
 
I guess what I'm trying to convey is that it's possible to like many kinds of music and listening to one certain style at any particular time doesn't seem to be life threatening.  If you hear things in the music that cause you to raise your eyebrows, you can ask her why she thinks they said something like that, or use it as a jumping off point to discuss different points of view and different cultures.
 
Good luck and try to enjoy ALL music!!!!
 
Linda




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Hammer

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Nov 27, 2007, 4:25:34 PM11/27/07
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For positive lyrics, check out Blackalicious. His music video, "Make
You Feel That Way," is on YouTube, along with videos set to his songs,
"Alphabet Aerobics" and "Chemical Calisthenics."

Kathryn

On Nov 27, 11:06 am, Kimberly Viducich <k...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> My almost 9 year old daughter really likes rap music. My DH and I are very concerned about the lyrics. We know banning it isn't the answer. My dd's personality is such that if she has any inkling that we may not like something for some reason, she really wants to do it more. I was wondering if anyone has dealt with similar issues. I would really like to delve into being interested with her but then I listen to some of the lyrics and I cringe. She has an ipod with lots of songs that aren't rap, but she likes to listen to the radio in the car, and of course she wants the rap songs she hears on the radio on her ipod.Thanks
> KImberly
>
> ---------------------------------

Angela D. Burkhardt

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Nov 27, 2007, 4:56:22 PM11/27/07
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Honestly......for us, if they are old enough to listen.....they are old enough to talk about it. Dom (just turned 8) and I have discussed premarital sex, drugs, gangs, and modesty based on song lyrics.

I would rather bring it up then to have hi come to his own conclusion based on hearing it elsewhere :)

(((hug))) It can be difficult. I just try to present as honest as I can. I basically ask questions and answer him back as needed depending on what he says.

Angela
________________________________
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:52:41 -0800
> From: kv...@yahoo.com
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Rap Music
> To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com

Joyce Fetteroll

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Nov 27, 2007, 5:12:37 PM11/27/07
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On Nov 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Kimberly Viducich wrote:

I have thought about that. At 9 years old the thought of some of these topics seems premature. I will do it though if it seems like the best solution.

Is she listening for the lyrics? Or is she listening for the music? You could point out some lyrics you think could be discussed and maybe they don't even register with her. I have a lot of rock lyrics memorized that I didn't pay any attention to their meaning until I was an adult. If my mother had wanted to discuss the lyrics because of fear of some influence on me I would have thought "Geez, Mom, it's just a song. I like the music. I don't care about the lyrics."

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 27, 2007, 5:25:17 PM11/27/07
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-=-I would rather bring it up then to have hi come to his own
conclusion based on hearing it elsewhere :)

(((hug))) It can be difficult. I just try to present as honest as I
can. I basically ask questions and answer him back as needed
depending on what he says.

-=-

When talking to young kids, give short answers, not long details.
I'm just pointing this out because I've seen none at all and too
long, and neither of those is great.

If parents talk too much kids tune them out after a while. If you
give a short interesting answer, the child will ask more then, or
later. It will be a dialog and not a major presentation.

Think of it like "Where do babies come from?" The first-pass answer
to that is "From inside their moms' bellies."

Questions about violence and sex, same deal. Very simple answers, or
else the explanations do way more damage than the song could've done.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 27, 2007, 5:26:51 PM11/27/07
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-=-I have a lot of rock lyrics memorized that I didn't pay any
attention to their meaning until I was an adult. If my mother had
wanted to discuss the lyrics because of fear of some influence on me
I would have thought "Geez, Mom, it's just a song. I like the music.
I don't care about the lyrics."-=-

Parents were crazily up in arms about the Rolling Stones' "Let's
Spend the Night Together" when it came out in 65 or whenever. I
wasn't thinking sex. I was thinking talking until the sun came up,
or a sleepover. I wouldn't have cared much one way or the other, but
the parents and teachers and news commentators were acting like
crazed monkeys.

Sandra

Jennifer

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Nov 27, 2007, 6:10:23 PM11/27/07
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--- Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:
> Parents were crazily up in arms about the Rolling
> Stones' "Let's
> Spend the Night Together" when it came out in 65 or
> whenever. I
> wasn't thinking sex. I was thinking talking until
> the sun came up,
> or a sleepover. I wouldn't have cared much one way
> or the other, but
> the parents and teachers and news commentators were
> acting like
> crazed monkeys.

I remember in around 1986 writing a persuasive paper
in English class about some group headed up by Tipper
Gore. I can't remember the name ... they wanted to put
warning labels on albums with offensive lyrics.

Frank Zappa was the main spokesperson against it.

I was 16 at the time, and what strikes me is that I
didn't even KNOW that the songs I was enjoying (like
Cyndi Lauper's "She Bop" or Madonna's "Dress You Up")
were sexually explicit until I read these articles
saying they were some of the songs people wanted to
put warning labels on.

In other words, I only knew that these songs had
sexual implications BECAUSE of groups like these.

Jenny

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MrsStranahan

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Nov 27, 2007, 9:39:22 PM11/27/07
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Not sure if all these songs are technically rap but they all have a rap like beat ... Rapper's Delight by The Sugarhill Gang which inspired Rapture by Blondie to be written, Another One Bites The Dust by Queen, which is referenced in Hollaback Girl by Gwen Stafani (which has a 'super clean version' but I don't think it's 'dirty' to begin with .. it says shit. Is that dirty? Those clean version always bug me though.

I listened to songs as a kid over and over again and I had no idea what some of the songs were really about until I was an adult. When I heard the song Divers Do it Deeper by David Allen Coe in my head I had men in deep sea diving suit diving in an ocean. I heard that song not long ago and I was like, ohh ... As an adult I like a lot of songs that could be labeled dirty. I don't take things so literally when I'm listening to a song to get offended by them.

There are tons of 'clean' rap songs and plenty of 'dirty' pop songs, country songs .. really just pick any genre. And the stuff on the radio is by definition 'clean'.

Not listening to rap in the car is not the same as banning something.

If you want to get creative about it learn some popular rap music she likes and the next time the song comes on the radio sing as loud as you can and flash some gang sings, get your husband to join if you can .. really, I bet she will NEVER want to listen to rap music with you again. Though, not sure you should want that.

Lauren

k

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Nov 27, 2007, 9:52:14 PM11/27/07
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When I was that age lyrics didn't even go in.  Just music.  Even now I mishear lyrics alot, and get unintended meanings.  To go right along with that, I love double entendre lyrics and stories.  Dave Matthews Band and Bob Dylan are great that way (although we're no longer anywhere near rappaland).
 
They aren't rap either and kinda old... I like Lauren Hill sometimes and still adore those reggae dudes Bob Marley and the Wailers.  
 
I'm fascinated with rap's rich history, at one time grass roots and all about rising up out of oppression, and since then commercialized and sold out to other interests.  To my ear, rap even at its crudest is about resisting the erasure of the human spirit.  Maybe rap history is a sort of self fulfilled prophecy that way.  Rap hasn't been around as long as jazz and I doubt it will have anything like jazz's classical or pop kudos.  And so what.  Almost everybody said it was a fad but it's been around for about 20 years now.  When I was coming up the big deal was backmasking and devil music.  Now it's rap getting the rap. 
 
~K~

Penta

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Nov 28, 2007, 12:55:26 AM11/28/07
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I read recently the following, and it seems appropriate:
"There is lots of comedy on TV, and people just aren't running around
in the streets being funny"

or something like that. :) In line I believe with what was questioned/
written/quoted below.

Shonna

Lizzil32

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Nov 28, 2007, 7:39:11 AM11/28/07
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If it's content that you're worried about. You can find clean rap
music. Music that speaks to responsibility and even faith. My husband
cannot hang with contempory worship music all the time. So he sought
out different genres that upheld his beliefs. He's found Christian
rap, Jewish rap, and I'm certain with a bit of looking you can find
music that has that vibe--since it's really the vibe, the feel, the
mooooove ya tush beat--that most are looking for in rap with out the
"pop ya sista ugly words ugly words". For many it speaks to their
lives, but since you may not live that life the lyrics are
irrelavent. You can motivate discussions on these topics within
songs. I worry that what goes in can't be gotten out. The more you
listen to a certain way of speaking, singin, etc the more it you
become a perpetuator of the language within it. It takes more
discipline in other words to not be influenced by what you hear
repeatedly.

I've discuss with DD about songs by BS the "hit me baby one more
time," lyric just freaked me. Not because BS want's her man to hit
her, but because children of my kids age hear things literally, and I
felt like I needed to be doubly sure dd understood. We checked the
content of the music with what we asked her she believed in, and since
it didn't jive she put it away and hasn't asked since.

On Nov 27, 2:06 pm, Kimberly Viducich <k...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> My almost 9 year old daughter really likes rap music. My DH and I are very concerned about the lyrics. We know banning it isn't the answer. My dd's personality is such that if she has any inkling that we may not like something for some reason, she really wants to do it more. I was wondering if anyone has dealt with similar issues. I would really like to delve into being interested with her but then I listen to some of the lyrics and I cringe. She has an ipod with lots of songs that aren't rap, but she likes to listen to the radio in the car, and of course she wants the rap songs she hears on the radio on her ipod.Thanks
> KImberly
>
> ---------------------------------

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 28, 2007, 9:02:18 AM11/28/07
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-=-I worry that what goes in can't be gotten out. The more you

listen to a certain way of speaking, singin, etc the more it you
become a perpetuator of the language within it. It takes more
discipline in other words to not be influenced by what you hear
repeatedly.
-=-

It takes awareness and mindfulness, not discipline.

There are LOTS of things I heard repeatedly when I was a kid that
influence me now. They influence me not to repeat those harmful
phrases. <g>

-=-I've discuss with DD about songs by BS the "hit me baby one more


time," lyric just freaked me. Not because BS want's her man to hit
her, but because children of my kids age hear things literally, and I

felt like I needed to be doubly sure dd understood. -=-

Holly listened to a lot of Britney Spears a few years ago, and I
heard that song but I never thought of it literally. The phrase "hit
me" comes more from poker games and other card games. I don't think
Holly thought it was about a request for violence.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

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Nov 28, 2007, 9:04:43 AM11/28/07
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-=-I read recently the following, and it seems appropriate:
"There is lots of comedy on TV, and people just aren't running around
in the streets being funny"-=-

lower left are some good quotes in support of TV/video

also quoted on this page:


"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?"
Dick Cavett


Susan Fuerst

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Nov 28, 2007, 10:38:34 AM11/28/07
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-----Original Message-----
From: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lizzil32
I've discuss with DD about songs by BS the "hit me baby one more time,"
lyric just freaked me. Not because BS want's her man to hit her, but because
children of my kids age hear things literally, and I felt like I needed to
be doubly sure dd understood. We checked the content of the music with what
we asked her she believed in, and since it didn't jive she put it away and
hasn't asked since.

When I was a child, I'd sing songs because of the rhythm, beat and the flow
of the words. I didn't think about the meaning hardly at all. I'm not
saying some children might not, but I think it's like many things that 'go
over a child's head'. For instance, my children watch the Shrek movies and
really don't 'get' some of the nuances and sexual references. We watched
hairspray recently also, and they didn't register some of the references -
like about the girl who left the Corny show for 9 months, and Corny's
subsequent comment about her sex life.

I wonder where your dd was about all this, and what it felt like to her to
have someone 'be doubly sure' she understood. I would have nodded and said
I understood if someone had done that.

A few years ago, my son (he was 4 or 5) began to sing the song at the end of
Shrek - "I like big butts and I cannot lie..." He didn't enunciate any more
of the words clearly, but did have some jumbled words to the beat of the
song. We didn't feel the need to deter him. Eventually, he listened to it
enough and learned the words to the whole clip. We did give him information
about where he ought to avoid singing it, and he was a bit older by then,
closer to six.

overall, we didn't even go into the meaning of the words (beyond letting him
know when he might offend someone) because he wasn't aware. So he learned
that they are offensive to some, and he didn't explore it any further.
Eventually, he drifted away from it. I'm glad we didn't make a huge fuss or
need to 'be doubly sure' about trying to force him to understand something
he had no need or desire to understand.

blessings, Susan

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 28, 2007, 10:46:42 AM11/28/07
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-=- I'm glad we didn't make a huge fuss or

need to 'be doubly sure' about trying to force him to understand
something
he had no need or desire to understand.-=-

I agree.

It's not the same as a family that won't discuss sex at all, or gets
mad at children for asking.

Being available to discuss it if the children want to is better than
bombarding them with information they don't want. Seriously. The
concerns some parents have about sex are made worse by the parental
posture/attitude/disapproval/fear. More than "made worse," the
sexual awareness might be created entirely by the parental reaction.

When a kissing-in-bed scene comes on on a movie, most kids are
already doing something else. If you rush to mute it or fast-
forward, they'll notice that more than the content itself. They're
waiting for kids or dogs to be on the show.

When my kids and their friends got interested in Meat Loaf's Bat Out
of Hell album, Brett Henry said once in a group of friends that the
guy in Two out of Three Ain't Bad was an idiot. They weren't
absorbing the message of the song; they were analyzing the
relationship and the problems of living in the past instead of
embracing the present.

I suppose there are countless families that wouldn't let their kids
own an album with "Hell" on the cover.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 28, 2007, 11:38:18 AM11/28/07
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I have a Ren Allen quote that applies to the Rap Music questions:


As a child I was taught that fashion and all it entails was "wordly" and that Barbie stuff promoted low self esteem. Baloney! What promoted low self esteem was being told my interests weren't worthy.
Ren Allen, on parents discouraging children's interests

Lizzil32

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Nov 28, 2007, 3:09:39 PM11/28/07
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On Nov 28, 9:02 am, Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:
> -=-I worry that what goes in can't be gotten out. The more you
> listen to a certain way of speaking, singin, etc the more it you
> become a perpetuator of the language within it. It takes more
> discipline in other words to not be influenced by what you hear
> repeatedly.
> -=-
>
> It takes awareness and mindfulness, not discipline.
>
> There are LOTS of things I heard repeatedly when I was a kid that
> influence me now. They influence me not to repeat those harmful
> phrases. <g>

Which is as it should be. Mindfulness and awareness are disciplines.
Self-discipline. Not punishment or prostration. That same self
discipline and a modicum of decorum probably keeps you from
communicating with your peers in the same fashion you might have heard
in music. The kids, however, do communicate in fashionable language.
Not all, I should say so as not to stereo-type or generalize, but
many.

We discussed what dd thought the song was saying, and she thought the
singer wanted to be hit. I didn't really know what BS meant by "hit
me." It does have more than one connotation. Yet when I look at the
lyrics in context there's no clear way to discern what she's actually
saying with the "hit me" line. There are no other words in the text
that would lead you to discern "oh we're talkin about black jack
here." What she really means is "come back, baby one more time." She
needs a second chance at this relationship. There are so many songs
out there that are unclear in their metaphors. You may draw a
conclusion based on context and experience and find by way of an
interview that you were way off mark. DD doesn't have enough life
experience or even educational experience to hear said words and say,
"Okay she means come back." Often I think she just ignores undesirable
or undecipherable content, but for how long?

I'm thinking my husband and I have lived fairly diverse musical taste
lives. We have, and we know, there is so much really awesome stuff out
there that may not even necessarily jive with everything we hold as
beliefs, but it was music that told a story greater than the players.
DH already shares some of his musical tastes with the kids. They LOVE
dad's music picks in part I think because he isn't just sharing a disc
he's sharing himself. They just dig it and we totally think he's a
star dj! So with so much great stuff to choose from why not be aware
and mindful enough to say, "Hey I know you really like this style, and
here's a group of artists that have a nicer perspective or a more
encouraging story within the music itself to tell. Interested?"

Rock On, Liz

Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is
impossible to be silent.
Victor Hugo

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 28, 2007, 3:27:10 PM11/28/07
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-=- Often I think she just ignores undesirable
or undecipherable content, but for how long?-=-

Until she begins to decipher it or to ask you about it.

Or maybe for the rest of her life.
I ignore undesirable or undecipherable content. When people are
speaking in a language I don't understand, I just hear it like water
flowing, like music. I don't try to decipher it.

-=-Mindfulness and awareness are disciplines.
Self-discipline-=-

I don't agree at all.


-=- That same self discipline and a modicum of decorum probably keeps

you from
communicating with your peers in the same fashion you might have heard

in music. -=-

No.

Mindfulness and awareness and a full understanding of decorum inform
how I communicate with people.

"A modicum of decorum" isn't a nice thing to say to or about someone
else.

"Self discipline" is like "self regulation." It's still about
discipline and rules. How and why should one discipline and regulate
oneself, when decision making in the light of compassion and goodness
will work much better?

Sandra


Joyce Fetteroll

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Nov 28, 2007, 5:06:53 PM11/28/07
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On Nov 28, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

When my kids and their friends got interested in Meat Loaf's Bat Out  

of Hell album, Brett Henry said once in a group of friends that the  

guy in Two out of Three Ain't Bad was an idiot.   They weren't  

absorbing the message of the song; they were analyzing the  

relationship and the problems of living in the past instead of  

embracing the present.


And my husband as a teen thought Paradise By the Dashboard Lights -- the one with the baseball announcer breaking in during the, uh, base rounding ;-) was about baseball. And most of those lyrics are fairly clearly sung as I recall.

Adults assume kids are absorbing things through adult sensibilities. It's not a useful assumption.

Joyce

k

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Nov 28, 2007, 6:13:08 PM11/28/07
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Words like self control, or self discipline make it sound like people are unruly.  We don't need control by self or others.  I agree that all that's needed are sound ideas and information for decision making.  There's no need to worry that people are going to "blow" without a cap on themselves. 
 
This whole rap conversation begs a lot of questions: Are we in need of filters (guides, teachers)?  Or are we capable of understanding the world through our own eyes without someone else's interpretation put on it or some person's censorship steering the content that goes into our minds?  Are we afraid of thinking?  Last but not least, why would we be afraid of our children's thought processes?
 
~K~

Lizzil32

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Nov 28, 2007, 4:19:03 PM11/28/07
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On Nov 28, 3:27 pm, Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:
> -=- Often I think she just ignores undesirable
> or undecipherable content, but for how long?-=-
>
> Until she begins to decipher it or to ask you about it.
>
> Or maybe for the rest of her life.
> I ignore undesirable or undecipherable content. When people are
> speaking in a language I don't understand, I just hear it like water
> flowing, like music. I don't try to decipher it.
>
Really? Cuz you know that's how little children learn language. No one
picks up lil 2yr old and says "Hey say, I love you." Like she's a tape
recorder. She just hears it and repeats it. Like the little boy who
says "Crud"--or some other more embarrasing faux pas--after hearing
your 3rd cousin Betty, once removed say it while stubbing her toe on
that coffee table. It's also how lil 2yr old knows the words "donde es
tu zapatos" means where's your shoes, because my sista-girlfriend
speaks broken spanish to her children/all children in her household.
You might not try to decipher it, but your brain picks up more than
you know. Your self-discipline and life experience keep you from using
it inappropriately. Something children only learn with time and
phrases like "That's not nice to say in polite company, please dont
say that here or at home."

>
> "Self discipline" is like "self regulation." It's still about
> discipline and rules. How and why should one discipline and regulate
> oneself, when decision making in the light of compassion and goodness
> will work much better?

You or the originator of this forum has set decorum for this site, and
you expect the "rules" to be followed and that we will "self-regulate"
our posts. I'm learning to self-regulate how I problem solve with my
children and how I relate to my children by using this forum as a
sounding board. It will take a great deal more self-discipline on my
part than perhaps others to change to a life more full. Life itself
takes a measure self-discipline ie, what will I let in, and what will
I let leave out, and what will I not even entertain.

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 28, 2007, 6:52:01 PM11/28/07
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-=-Really? Cuz you know that's how little children learn language.-=-

Really?

yes, I know.

But little children aren't learning ALL the language around them.
They're ignoring most adult-to-adult conversation for the first few
years, and they're ignoring a lot of movie dialog and a lot of song
lyrics. Alarmed adults explaining it all to them is not a helpful
addition to the noise around them.

When an adult hears another language full speed between native
speakers, they're not likely to pick up a lot of it. I lived in a
70% Hispanic town and can understand a lot of Spanish, after years of
exposure, but the easy stuff comes first, and it's easy to ignore
when it's not to or about me or about things I know about. Same with
young kids and complex lyrics.

-=-You or the originator of this forum has set decorum for this site,

and
you expect the "rules" to be followed and that we will "self-regulate"

our posts. -=-

Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Sorooshian and I inherited this forum, though we
were on it since it was new. We worked together to set guidelines.
People don't have to self-regulate. They can choose to cooperate or
not. If they choose not to, we'll boot them off. It doesn't take a
lot of self discipline to read those guidelines and be cooperative.

-=- I'm learning to self-regulate how I problem solve with my


children and how I relate to my children by using this forum as a
sounding board. It will take a great deal more self-discipline on my

part than perhaps others-=-

It would be easier for you and your children if instead of looking at
a great deal of self discipline and self regulation and problem
solving, if you look at the good parts of the forum--the
encouragement to live by principles and to make mindful choices
moment to moment.

-=- Life itself


takes a measure self-discipline ie, what will I let in, and what will
I let leave out, and what will I not even entertain.

-=-

That can all be rephrased in terms of choices. The idea of "self
discipline" isn't as helpful to understanding unschoolig as the idea
of making mindful choices is. It's similar to the difference between
teaching and learning.

http://sandradodd.com/teaching/
http://sandradodd.com/control

If you think of controlling yourself, and of your children
controlling themselves, it's till about control.
If people live by principles their choices come easily.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

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Nov 29, 2007, 6:14:16 AM11/29/07
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On Nov 28, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Lizzil32 wrote:

I'm learning to self-regulate how I problem solve with my

children and how I relate to my children by using this forum as a

sounding board. It will take a great deal more self-discipline on my

part than perhaps others to change to a life more full.  Life itself

takes a measure self-discipline ie, what will I let in, and what will

I let leave out, and what will I not even entertain.


While all the above can be worded that way, by using the terms self-control and self-discipline and self-regulation it keeps the thoughts firmly fastened in the idea of always having to stop yourself from taking something you want.

Self-regulating (of TV or food or whatever) carries the implication of stopping before you're done. It suggests having some length of time or some amount in your head that's proper and stopping when you reach that.

At the beginning of a change, we can sometimes fake it until we make it, but that should be a part of consciously working on ourselves to change. Faking it won't lead to making it on its own.

While people can use the term self-regulate to mean stopping when they feel satiated, it isn't the same. And it's an important distinction when people are trying to change. It's more helpful to go for self-awareness than self-regulation. The first helps us internalize the ideas we're reaching for. The second keeps us going through the motions.

Words can shape our thoughts. It's helpful to think in different ways to be different.

You might not try to decipher it, but your brain picks up more than
you know.

Yes, you've described the process of picking up language. Kids hear something and then hear it again and again *in different contexts*. Eventually they pull meaning from seeing things in different contexts.

But songs don't necessarily get processed in the same way. (Or not for all people.) I'm pretty good with words, I really love playing with words, but for me lyrics get taken in as sounds that fit the music. Even as an adult I don't process the meaning unless I get curious about a song and look up the lyrics. The lyrics get heard as just sounds being used to express the emotions of the notes.

While it's not true that all kids will ignore lyrics, it's also not true that all kids will internalize the lyrics. In a mindful home it's about paying attention to your particular kids and their particular needs. If a child is happily singing some nasty lyrics it doesn't mean they necessarily know what they're singing about and, in a loving home, the won't have embraced the ideas.

So another barrier against kids getting the message of lyrics is that the environments are alien to the child. In a loving home where people don't hit each other, hearing lyrics about a guy hitting a woman just don't have the same impact as they do in a home and an environment where that's common and even accepted by peers. For a child in a loving home, someone willfully hitting someone and feeling it's good is an alien thought. It won't make a chid want to hit any more than a character in a book kicking a dog will make them want to kick the dog. (And if they do then there's something else in the child's environment that needs tended to.)

Violence on TV and video games and music does not cause kids to be violent. Kids who are in violent environments often get drawn to violence (on TV and games and music) because it can feel like a way out of a bad environment.

Parents can ruin perfectly good songs by pointing out things that kids aren't even paying attention to!

It's helps unschooling and mindful parenting to be aware of *your* kids and *their* unique needs rather than treating them as generic kids with all the worst possible traits.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 29, 2007, 10:33:25 AM11/29/07
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-=-Even as an adult I don't process the meaning unless I get curious
about a song and look up the lyrics. The lyrics get heard as just
sounds being used to express the emotions of the notes.-=-

Thanks, Joyce. That describes very well the way I hear music at first.

I know the lyrics of tunes I learned when I was very young, in the
1950's, and I usually know all the words, but it took years of repeat
(or hearing it or singing it) to put it into memory that way.

Yesterday Holly woke up and sang "good morning" in such a way that it
triggered me to continue with
"...good morning
The best to you each morning
From K-E-double-L
O-double-G
Kellog's best to you"

She looked at me as though she'd never heard that (because she
hadn't) and said "I was singing 'Good Morning Baltimore." Then she
wanted me to sing the Kellog's jingle two more times.

I asked her and our friend Ben (who's dancing with her on her MySpace
page, for those who might know those images) about what they thought
of those Britney Spears lyrics. Ben started reciting them... they
were all in his head from repeated exposure. He said he never
thought of it literally, figured it was "give me another chance," but
he's older than Holly. I asked Holly and she said she kinda
wondered, but it didn't matter. It never disturbed her that she
didn't really understand what the lyrics were about.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

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Nov 29, 2007, 10:34:35 AM11/29/07
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-=-Violence on TV and video games and music does not cause kids to be
violent. Kids who are in violent environments often get drawn to
violence (on TV and games and music) because it can feel like a way
out of a bad environment.-=-

Kids who are in repressive, controlled, demeaning situations can
become violent too (in attitude and words, if not in physical deeds).

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

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Nov 29, 2007, 2:33:41 PM11/29/07
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I'm learning to self-regulate how I problem solve with my
children and how I relate to my children by using this forum as a
sounding board. It will take a great deal more self-discipline on my
part than perhaps others to change to a life more full.  Life itself
takes a measure self-discipline ie, what will I let in, and what will
I let leave out, and what will I not even entertain.

It has helped me a LOT, in many different areas of life, to stop thinking in terms of trying to be more self-regulating or self-disciplined, but to think, instead, of making the best "choices" possible. 

I've lost over 80 pounds in the past year - and seriously NOT through self-regulation, self-discipline at all. THAT kind of thinking, a dieting mentality, never worked for more than getting off a few pounds and then, when I "slipped" I'd put the weight back on plus some. Instead, I took what I learned from parenting/unschooling, and I began to absolutely revel in the joy of food. I looked at it consciously, carefully, took it seriously. I eat what I love to eat. I don't eat what makes me feel lousy. I make conscious choices. Is that piece of pie something I want enough to ingest the high fat content? Yes or no. NO guilt. If I decide to have it, I RELISH it. I eat with gusto!

The difference in outlook is astounding. My eating life is full of joy - I love food, love to eat, enjoy it FAR more than I ever did before. After every meal, I stop for a second and think, "Mmmm, that was really good." 

The alternative way of approaching things, self-regulation and self-discipline, puts an emphasis on deprivation - "I will control myself and will NOT let myself have that piece of pie." Then, when I "can't resist," I have failed, I'm bad, I'm not self-disciplined enough. Think those kinds of thoughts and that becomes the reality for you. Really, you won't do "better" at things by depriving yourself, you do better  by being oriented toward solutions, by "doing" rather than "not doing." Throughout the past year, if I ever noticed that I was thinking things like, "Oh, I can't have that," I would immediately replace that thought with, "OH! I CAN have that if I want it. Or I can have this alternative. Whichever I decide. It is my choice." 

Maybe the connection between parenting/unschooling and what I'm talking about here won't be clear to everyone, but, to me, it is exactly the same - a change in thinking that then manifests in long-term, real changes in behavior. I don't try to "control myself" around food and I don't try to "control myself" around my kids. 

-pam





Angela D. Burkhardt

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Nov 30, 2007, 11:18:54 AM11/30/07
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This is REALLY wonderful.  I have always had issues about being pretty hard on myself. :(  I have been diagnosed with severe ADHD (also known as anti-sheeple disorder......doesn't do things like everyone else)  It was hard for me to really embrace my differences and celebrate them.  I have an easier time doing that for my children, but I tend to forget about being my own motivator.  Thank you for reminding myself that more "self discipline" is not the answer.  I need to make the best choices I can with joy!  ::: happy tears:::
 
Thank you.....Angela


From: pamso...@earthlink.net


 
It has helped me a LOT, in many different areas of life, to stop thinking in terms of trying to be more self-regulating or self-disciplined, but to think, instead, of making the best "choices" possible. 

 
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