Aaahhh family %$#^&

[TJCHO...@aol.com]

Hey - I am here hoping to get some suggestions for ways to approach this situation. This is long - so please skip if it is not of interest but if you don't mind reading and commenting I would sure love the support. I know we have most all had issues with family members and our schooling choices. And I truly don't have a gut feeling of the right course to take.

 

My brother and I are nine years apart in age. He is older. Yet I have very few childhood memories that include him. By the time I was old enough to remember all that much he was in high school and gone at school or gone every moment not in school being with his friends. We never had a close relationship due to that. We just led separate lives. My parents both worked full time so I was only home evenings and weekends myself.

 

He is now in his mid to late thirties, just got married last year and they are considering kids in the next year or so. Before that he was the constant bachelor, living in the city (we live in the suburb), and his friends still are what his life rotated around. I myself had children early and have loved every moment of home life, family life, children, parenting, unschooling I have been blessed to experience. We are just inherently different people with different priorities.

 

I have always held some disfavor towards him internally on a pure sibling rivalry level. It wasn't major but he truly is the child who can do no wrong - even when he does really stupid stuff my mom will always make it be someone else's fault or shrug it off like it is nothing. If any of her other kids were to do the exact same thing we would be wrong and be called on it. He is always right in her mind. I think that is a really crappy way to be when you have more than one child - I can't fathom how one could favor one child over another but my gosh if you did I can't imagine every actually outwardly showing it. However even neighbors and acquaintances have commented on how he can do no wrong in my mom's eyes and it is plain to see. She will even admit it and think it is funny. It is not funny. it is very hurtful. I however am the one who spends a great deal more time with my mom - and he may have issues with that - I have no idea - but I can guess he may feel I get more time and I get supported more by them in day to day life.

 

But besides those internal feelings I have always had we always got along fine when we were together. But of course that was when I was in high school, was captain of the cheerleading squad, very slim and spent most of my time with friends and worrying about how I looked - all things that are top priorities to him - meaning how you are seen by others on that superficial level.

 

Then I had kids. My priorities immediately became being a family, a parent. I would gladly pass up events and parties to be home with the kids. I (this part I am not too happy about) gained some weight. I really could care less if I had the latest designer clothes. I was and still am more than happy to go out in public in shorts and a t-shirt and no make up. He owns a casual dining pizzeria - red and white checkered table clothes and all restaurant and actually years ago asked me to not come in dressed in mom clothes as he put it as it was a bad reflection on him. Him telling me how to be in public really infuriated me. And he is a reflection on him. Noone else. The thing is for ME I could care less what other think of how I dress or look note I am not some ghastly unkempt monster - I just don't care if I am out in designer jeans and heels). That is all superficial stuff. I wear matching clean clothes and unless I feel the need to get gussied up I am content with just how I am. He on the other hand has had plastic surgery to enhance his facial features and rides 100 miles several times a week on his bike to stay slim. It is not about health for him - it is about outward appearances. Nothing wrong with that - but different priorities.

 

Then he nearly lost a gasket when I began homeschooling. I was ruining my kids academically and socially according to him. During a couple months of heated exchanges is the time I learned I so do not need to defend our position to others - just smile and say I am doing what I know is best for my kids. And I truly feel I am a really good mother, considerate of my kids - not some authoritarian just for the sake of being able to be one. Things have been back to cordial since I refused to fight with him over it anymore. You can't fight without someone to fight back - not very well. And it has remained that way for years. Though to be honest I have had less respect for him as ignorance really is my hot button. And I can accept others doing what I disagree with - he is not even willing to consider other opinions if they are not his. And he has been adamant when he has kids they will never watch TV as TV is horrible, they will be read to constantly and have strict boundaries.

 

My mom on the other hand has not every really supported homeschooling - which we have been doing always - and my kids are 11 and 4. But she has agreed for years to disagree - and accepted these are my kids to raise how I feel is best for them. It is where I can share homeschooling info with her and know it may not change her mind to think that public schooling is better - but that she will read it for info and it will give her some insight into my views.

 

I recently sent her an article some of you may have seen - on Homeschool Split Personality Disorder (said with a tongue in cheek attitude) by Diane Flynn Keith. I read it and thought it was really good - explains how many unschoolers can have doubts - I usually don't but some of the doubts expressed are those my mom has offered up. I really liked how Diane explained how even she has had doubts but she always comes back to knowing what she is doing is best for her family (note as you will see my brother completely missed that point). I never send homeschooling stuff to my brother or even mention the subject - but apparently my mom did. My mom had this recent exchange with him. She sent him the article I sent her (and shockingly) told him that while she thinks public school is the way to go she agrees to disagree on the subject and she found this article very interesting and that it made wonderful points in favor of homeschooling (yes, my jaw dropped to the floor). This was my brother's e-mailed response.

____

Mom...yes, an interesting article.  The author candidly expresses her uncertainties about the whole homeschooling endeavor, which is refreshing to read. 

But as it regards to my sister, as I see it, the article is irrelevant.  Because the problem with her, by all evidence, is that she never homeschools her kids.  I mean, not once when I'm over is there ever a semblance of schooling going on. 

And I know she prefers "unschooling".  Is that what playing video games and watching TV is, every waking hour of the kids' developing young minds' lives?  I know you like to believe she legitimately teaches them.  Do you really, truly believe this?  And if so, what's the quality of this education?  Is there ever a time that the TV(s) are turned off?

Mom, this is something that deeply bothers me.  I can go on much further with my reasons why I think she is completely delusional in her belief that she is some kind of supreme mother.  But expressing these to you would be pointless if not hurtful.  I've come to the recent realization that if i'm going to be upset, I should express it to her directly and spare the mom I love so much.

So that's that,
____

 

None the less that was unpleasant to read. To the point where I feel all these years of pretending to agree to disagree really is nothing of that. Of the times I do see him and he is pleasant it is all fake and it turns my stomach. I guess my question is what to do. The answer may be nothing. Of course it makes me want to come back at him with about a million retorts but won't - that is useless and actually degrades my argument. Why should I have to argue what I know is what we are meant to do? That is silly. Now do know my kids and I do watch a lot of TV - my gosh I think it is an amazing educational resource. We play lots of video games and computer games - my kids are passionate about them and have learned not only to read because of them but to type - and have spun off interests in programming, mythology, geography and as you all know - many more things. But that is no where near all we do - and I find education in all we do. My kids are very bright and thriving. I have seen them learn very easily everything that has ever become of interest and pertinent to them. Yet struggle when something is forced on them to learn when they have no interest.But to be honest whenever we have company that is not their friends or family they feel connected to and have a desire to hang out with - they go off to fill their time with what they enjoy while everyone else is visiting. Which usually means going off to play games. My gosh what a blessing to be able to spend your free time doing just what you want to do. But to be honest that is why that is what he usually sees. They are not connected with him so they don't care to hang with him - it is not a diss - it is just there is no pull so hey go do their thing.

 

And I do not think I am a supreme mother. But I know I am a darn good one to my kids. I don't feel I am any better than anyone else - but I am very confident in the fact that I am parenting just how I feel a person deserves to be parented so that makes me feel very happy.

 

I don't know that it is worth even saying anything to him - but this fake stuff won't really fly anymore seeing now how he clearly feels.

 

Here is where it is complicated. The easy answer would be to say well just don't spend time with or talk to them. I absolutely would do that. But my parents live with us. There of course are disadvantages of having this multiple generational home but many benefits - including splitting the bills to allow me to struggle less while supporting us and being there with my kids full time while working from home on a random schedule. And remember my mom's son is the one who can do no wrong. And he only lives twenty minutes away and in a few months is moving three blocks away. If my parents did not live with us we probably would not see him but once a year. He stops by now about once every couple of weeks and when he moves closer it will be multiple times a week. While my mom and him usually go off to do something together when they are at the house they are at the house. I can't demand my mom does not let him in our home. It is her home too. It would never happen. Yet I don't even want to look at him. I feel like I should not have to grab the kids and dash out of the house everytime he unexpectedly stops by - and I guarantee the kids would not always want to stop what they are doing. But smiling and pretending the niceties of hi, how are you, how is the restaurant really turns my stomach. I like to be a bit more authentic than that. not to mention there is little I can do bout holidays and parents' birthdays, etc. It is not fair for me or the kids to remove ourselves form the situation and miss out on the larger family activities. But I feel like I can't pretend to like him at this point.

 

Does anyone have any advice? Clearly I am in the midst of feeling angry over it and clearly could have a clouded view. Inspiration anyone? Vision of clarity?

 

Thanks! 

---

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

[Lars Hedbor]

Wow, your brother sounds like a real piece of work.  It's always funny to me how folks who don't even have kids yet know "all about" how to be parents, particularly when they intend to entrust some of the most critical parts of being a parent to some bureaucracy, instead of being responsible for it themselves, in collaboration with the children.

(As a brief aside, I'm becoming convinced that videogames, and World of Warcraft-type MMPORPGs specifically, are a genuine phenomenon in getting kids reading and writing.  My own DD, 8, has become an avid reader and an accomplished writer in the past year by this means, and several other children she's been playing with both in the game and elsewhere have done likewise... something to look for some research on, I'm thinking...)

As for how to deal with your brother, the fact is that his intended path is one that many unschoolers and homeschoolers would probably regard as borderline abusive of his future children, and yet we usually avoid making rude comments to folks who warehouse their kids in violence-ridden, rote-learning, soul-crushing and utterly failed public schools.  Is it too much to ask that we are given the same courtesy?  I don't think so.

Brother or not, we all are sometimes exposed to people who are judgmental and cruel, and sometimes don't have a good way to avoid ongoing contact with them.  My inclination would be to tell him, firmly, that while you understand his concern, you do not appreciate his tone, and ask him to keep his thoughts to himself until such time as he's bothered to educate himself on just what unschooling is.  (Since he seems so sure of himself, it's unlikely that he'll ever bother.)

I feel sorry for him, and especially for his future kids, honestly.  Plastic grows brittle with age, and it sounds as though he's living a very artificial lifestyle.  Ultimately, his opinion, while hurtful, is meaningless in how your kids thrive as unschoolers and as human beings.  It wouldn't hurt to tell him that, I think.

Hope this helps a little bit.

- Lars

[k]

As far as feelings.... I understand.  I hate being misunderstood especially by people who call themselves family.  I have family like what you describe and they accept me after a fashion as I am.  It is not an easy acceptance for them by long shot.  I would hazard a guess, though I don't know for sure, that I have done the most toward making peace with it.  And I'm okay with that.

The best thing I can say is not really advice.  Just an observation: you and your brother's lives are not interconnected enough (from what I can see) for his opinion to really matter to your life.  Let a lot of water go under the bridge, and IF he is ever to value what you're doing, it will be after he has children and the challenge of parenting on his own.  Right Now, anything you're doing will be understood through the lens he's looking through Right Now.   It's only after people feel the need for new information that they seek it out.  And for your brother that may happen.  Or it may never happen.

Just continue being confident in what you're doing.  Make changes as you see fit.  Make wise (and diplomatic and sensitive) choices regarding the flow of feelings toward you elsewhere.  It will be okay.

~Katherine

[S Gaissert]

I agree with what Katherine said about being confident in what you're doing and just moving on. Anything else would just distract you from your purpose, which is to nurture and support your family. He is not your family (you know what I mean). I have a brother who I see very rarely. I'm sure that he disagrees with my parenting choices, but fortunately we aren't close enough for me to actually hear him say so. It still hurts on some level, so I can imagine how this situation hurts you. But just try to keep true to yourself and not let him distract you. I want to say something Zen-like, something about how your purity of actions will stand firm in the face of his superficial criticisms. Hope this rambling helps a bit . . .
Susan G.

[Adesa]

Your brother sounds like mine. Luckily, mine lives a thousand miles
away. :o)

Here's the thing: you have control over only your OWN actions.
Ideally, he should at least keep his mouth shut until he has his own
children. Ideally, he should recognize that people have different ways
of viewing issues. And ideally, he should understand thatthese are
YOUR kids, so he has no business judging their upbringing.

But, knowing that type of person as I do, the ideal just isn't going
to happen. Even when he has kids, I think his views will remain the
same, and he will undoubtedly continue to express them to you and your
mom.

So.

Maybe a reply could be, "Boy, I'm glad you've figured out this
parenting thing already. Once you start having kids, that'll really
come in handy! You won't mind, though, if I point out what you're
doing wrong? The ways you'll be screwing up your kids? 'Cause boy, has
THAT been helpful!"

Perhaps you can try what I've done: I started a blog. This is my
family blog, in that I post only info I want my brothers and parents
to read. On the blog, I journal each and every day what the kids have
done. Included on this list are the games they've played and shows
they've watched ('cause our TV really IS always on!). But I also MAKE
SURE to record what we discuss about those things, plus all the other
stuff they do and the conversations we have. I mean, I make note of
every learning moment that I possibly can.

And here's the secret ingredient: in parentheses, after each sentence
or paragraph explaining an activity, I record the traditional school
sujects that were covered by that activity. For example, yesterday, my
ds7 made up a game in which we each had a job (social studies: I was a
blacksmith, and we talked all about their role and science: we talked
about why the metal is heated and pounded) and earned and spent money
(math -- mental math, multiplication, money skills, and computation).
He also watched How It's Made on the Discovery Channel (science:
learned all about designing and engineering skateboards).

You get the idea. Now, you have no control over whether your brother
reads the blog, but if he does, he will at least have his eyes opened
to the learning that actually happens in your home. The added bonus of
a blog is that you have a record of your lives. One day I'm going to
print out all my posts and bind them into memory books for my
kids. :o)

Hope this helps. Good luck!
Adesa in Virginia

[Debi]

I agree that it is very easy to be hurt by the things in that email of your brother's -- but I am not clear at all on why *you* have a copy of it.  Did he CC you?  Or did your mom give it to you read?  Or....?

If your mom gave it to you, what could have been her motivation in letting you read such a negative reply?  It seems her motives in sending it on to your brother were to maybe be on your side (at least, a little) -- you say she (quote) "told him that while she thinks public school is the way to go she agrees to disagree on the subject and she found this article very interesting and that it made wonderful points in favor of homeschooling."

To me that sounds like she is trying to understand a little bit about where you are coming from, and maybe even help him understand it, too.  It sure doesn't sound like she was trying to get him to dis you, or to support his point of view over yours.

Is it possible that his remarks reawakened some old fears in her, and she showed this email as a way of asking for reassurance from you?  If that is in fact what is going on, how can you use this exchange as an open door to reiterate to her (in an open, peaceful kind of way) how you know what you do might seem odd to outsiders, but because she sees your children every day, she knows first hand what great kids they are? 

Maybe she didn't know what to say to him in reply, and is looking for some help from you.  Is it possible she needs to hear how the television being on non-stop provides them with a steady place to where they can be exposed to new ideas, etc.?  How they are not just mindlessly vegging out day after day, but using it as a springboard to new interests?

I find many people around me need constant reassurance that I know what I am doing, and that I truly have my children's best interests at heart.  It is hard for my parents to know how to answer their friends, or my brothers, or people at church ... it might seem like a really counterproductive way to ask for help, but if that is in fact why you were given this email to read (assuming that you were, and that you didn't find it by accident or something), how does that change your response?  Will focussing on your hurt be helpful to you, your mother, your brother, or even your children?

You say your children feel no connection to their uncle.  Is that in their best interest?  It may be, but down the road, they might be glad of a chance for employment in his restaurant, or someone to ride a bike with for miles several times a week, or whatever.  I don't agree with my brothers, but in some ways, it is good for them to be part of my children's lives, especially with their dad gone so much.  One of my brothers operates a fitness studio, and I can see my fifteen year old son a little curious about body building and so forth, and I trust my brother not to get him hooked on steroids or whatever because I know how he feels about those things.

All I am saying is, it seems like although this is an awful way to start things, this might be a way to bring a little reassurance  to your mom, and maybe even a little healing for you.  If you are 9 years younger than he is, and he is in his mid to late thirties, I assume you are close to 30 yourself.  If so, that is a really long time to have carried this rivalry around. 

There have been some great posts on healing from bad relationships (whether in a marriage contest or whatever) -- I encourage you to do some reading in the archives.   You can be a great model to your children on how to deal peacefully with those who do not support your views, if you choose it.  That might be the most positive result of all from this painful situation.

Anyway.  I am not trying in the least to discount your feelings, but  I think there are some other bits here to look at.  Maybe once some of the pain eases, you can look for ways to create a better scenario for eveyone, one that includes other options than running out the door when you see him coming.  That might be all you can cope with for now, but I'll bet that doesn't really make you feel happy.

What do you want most in this situation?  It sounds like you kind of want his approval, or at least support.  Is stewing in your hurt (and I do it, too, but I have come to recognize that is the least productive thing I can do for myself and my children) going to get you any closer to feeling like he cares for you, despite your choices?

When I read his email, I can hear the possibility of a brother who is genuinely concerned for his (nieces?  Nephews?  I don't know what gender of kids you have).  Of course, he is a little passive agressive in his last line, but it sounds like he might be open (a teeny, teeny bit) to hearing what happens with the children on a day to day basis -- you yourself admit all he has seen them do is play games.  Of course, you know him way better, but just going from the words, I see some hope there.

I spend time trying to help my children feel conected to those in my family with different agendas and priorities -- I tell them funny stories about my childhood, about the fights we had, the times when we stuck up for each other (and the times we didn't).  I do this in the context of helping my children have healthier relationships with each other.  I don't so this in an approval-seeking kind of way, but just to show my bunch a different way of seeing these mysterious adults who wander through their lives a couple of times a year; a different way to think of them.  I want my kids to be able to find common ground with lots of people in their life -- not just the ones who believe or live the way we do.  I figure this is good practice, because I am close and can run interference if need be.

I honestly have way better conversations with my sisters-in-law than my brothers, and even there we have extremely little in common.  But it gives my mother the gift of having all HER children close to her once in a while, and I figure that I can do that much for lots of reasons, including my own growth.

It hasn't always been that way, and it doesn't work out every time -- there have been lots of times I have scooped up my kids and left.  But every now and then there is some genuine camaraderie, and that heals me in a way that frosty civility or avoidance cannot.

One book I have found most helpful is Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute (www.arbinger.com) -- they are really dedicated to peace, and the role we can each play within our homes and within the world.  It is no Pollyanna approach, but some practical ways to change your situation by changing your part in conflicts -- and that doesn't mean just letting someone else walk all over you, either.  Anyway.

I am sorry you have to go through this, but I hope it can bring something more postivie for you and your children -- and maybe even your extended family.

Debi, who thinks the blogging idea has some merit, too

[Kathleen McKernan]

On May 7, 2008, at 8:20 AM, Debi wrote:

One book I have found most helpful is Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute (www.arbinger.com) -- they are really dedicated to peace, and the role we can each play within our homes and within the world.  It is no Pollyanna approach, but some practical ways to change your situation by changing your part in conflicts -- and that doesn't mean just letting someone else walk all over you, either.  Anyway.

Thank you so much for this referral! I'm currently observing a conflict in the nonprofit I'm involved with that has resisted traditional conflict-resolution techniques -- and I just requested two Arbinger books from the library.

Kathleen

[ridi...@mac.com]

Hi--Not fun to get such blatant challenge about your life and choices.

Here are my thoughts:

Someone else picked up on this too--why did you have the e-mail from
Mom? I would ask my Mom why she sent it. Another possibility is that
she is fanning the fires of sibling rivalry. Not a pretty option, but
it has been known to happen. My dad would do stuff like this for that
reason, and finally I made it clear that I would not discuss my
brother with him anymore--he was the "problem" child. It was not only
disrespectful, but extremely devisive between my brother and I. You
could request that your mom not discuss you with him (if you think
that would fly) or more importantly, that she not include you (by e-
mailing you the exchanges or telling you what was said). If nothing
else it will bring more peace into your life.

When I was younger I thought I needed to know everything that was
going on along these lines--who was talking about me, etc. Now that
I'm older I realize that all that desire was driven by insecurity, and
when I had information like that, it only fed the insecurity--it
didn't add any peace or happiness or contentment to my life.

Part of what I'm suggesting is to step out of the sibling rivalry
picture. You are done growing in your mother's house--it doesn't
serve you as an adult to continue to engage in it. If she favored
him, then it's done. It seems like you may have gotten the good end
of that bargain anyway--not him. You might even be thankful that you
weren't "favored" (substitute ruined) by the excess "love." What
happened happened, and to continue to view things as "unfair" won't
help you to move on. You are not really "less" than him, except
perhaps in your mother's eyes. Stop looking through her eyes--her
vision is skewed, and you are harboring a secret insecurity that you
really might be "less" than him if she couldn't love you as much.
It's NOT TRUE!

And, by the way, the last line of his e-mail made me want to puke! It
really seems to me like his "discrediting" of your choice to
homeschool might have just as much to do with the sibling rivalry
dynamic as it does with any actual views he holds. He seems very
invested in keeping his mommy's energy flowing in his direction--not
yours. When she took a stand, such as it was, to support your
choices, I'll bet he was awfully surprised (and maybe not very
happy)! His e-mail seemed like an attempt to get her back on his
side. If you look behind the words, the actions seem so classically
clear--he want to remain the favorite, and any perceived threat needs
to be put down.

Maybe this fits, maybe not. Even though your e-mail was long, it did
provide a great window into the whole dynamic. Thanks, Joanna

[Queana]

I understand your feelings, but try to at least see his perspective.  He is concerned about his nephews/nieces, he has mentioned his concerns in the past but realizes you don't want to hear it anymore, so he quit bringing it up.  He still didn't bring it up to you, but only to his mom in response to something she sent to him.  He has a very narrow perspective of what good parenting and a good education is, and you're not doing it.  95% of the population would likely have the same reaction as he does.  I'm not trying to excuse him, but to help you find peace in your heart with how he feels.  He just doesn't get it.  Who cares?  At least he's not your husband :)

I don't think you should avoid him or confront him.  Just live your lives, and if he comes over try to think of something fun he and the kids could do together.  I have wonderful memories of my aunts and uncles growing up; not because they agreed with my parents (we were the weirdo Christians who homeschooled and they were all pretty much agnostic college professors), but because they were family and we did stuff together.  Unless he is negative to the children, they may get to know each other and he will eventually realize they are just fine, or better!  Board games, bike rides, trips to the park, camping, hikes, movies, amusement parks... You get the idea.

Sarah

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> .

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-But as it regards to my sister, as I see it, the article is irrelevant. -=-

He doesn't even use your name.  Don't worry about his opinion.

-=-I can go on much further with my reasons why I think she is completely delusional in her belief that she is some kind of supreme mother.  But expressing these to you would be pointless if not hurtful. -=-

A young-adult friend said to me once in frustration, "I would say 'fu** you,' but I'm not going to."

That's kinda what your brother did to your mom.

"I don't want to sound like a dick, but..."

or

"No offense, but..."

-=-I don't know that it is worth even saying anything to him - but this fake stuff won't really fly anymore seeing now how he clearly feels.-=-

You could continue to be pleasant for the sake of being a pleasant person.  You don't have to try to delude yourself that he's being open-minded or compassionate.  So what?  

=-I can't demand my mom does not let him in our home. It is her home too. It would never happen. Yet I don't even want to look at him. I feel like I should not have to grab the kids and dash out of the house everytime he unexpectedly stops by - and I guarantee the kids would not always want to stop what they are doing.-=-

You could go and be with the kids, though, and kinda figuratively or literally turn your back on him.  Give him more privacy with your mom.  Take the kids out if it gets tense, and stay if it doesn't, maybe.

-=-But smiling and pretending the niceties of hi, how are you, how is the restaurant really turns my stomach. -=-

Well don't ask about the restaurant then.  Just smile.  Wanly, maybe. <g>

-=-there is little I can do bout holidays and parents' birthdays, etc. It is not fair for me or the kids to remove ourselves form the situation and miss out on the larger family activities. But I feel like I can't pretend to like him at this point.-=-

It is possible to be in the room with someone you're not speaking to and not make a big deal about it.   You can learn to bob, dodge and sway, for your children's sake.  None of them will have the same sick-to-stomach, long-life-of-resentment feelings you're having.  And eventually even your brother will have to be impressed with their knowledge.

-=-Clearly I am in the midst of feeling angry over it and clearly could have a clouded view. Inspiration anyone? Vision of clarity?-=-

I would say if you listen to happy  music and think about other things and do sweet special things for your kids and calm down naturally, time will pass.  Your kids will get older,  your brother will get wiser (or not) and the situation will never be just as it is now.  

Maybe get a book about unschooling and ask him to read it, if he wants to discuss it with you.  Then if he does, he'll feel differently.  If he refuses to read it, that will be a mark of cowardice on his part, and you don't need to discuss it with him, ever.  You could say "Have you read the book yet?" if he brings it up.

My book might do it.  It's pretty painless reading.   The Unschooling Handbook, maybe.

http//sandradodd.com/puddlebook

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

Lars wrote:
-=-Brother or not, we all are sometimes exposed to people who are

judgmental and cruel, and sometimes don't have a good way to avoid
ongoing contact with them. My inclination would be to tell him,
firmly, that while you understand his concern, you do not appreciate
his tone, and ask him to keep his thoughts to himself until such time

as he's bothered to educate himself on just what unschooling is. -=-

OOH! oooh! Maybe tell him to put all his concerns in writing, and
you'll save them, with that copy of what he wrote to your mom, and
you'll think about them.

Save what he wrote and trot it out in five or ten years. You won't
have to say "told you so." He'll know.

I'm going to post my oldest son's resume, a censored version because
he's not allowed to share any details about his current job. I'll do
that separately. I know not all unschoolers have the opportunities
he had. We lived a mile from a gaming store and he hung around there
a lot when he was 12 and 13. Because of Ninja Turtles, he wanted to
study karate. That led to other things too.

No one who every criticized Kirby or our parenting of him says a word
now; they haven't for years.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

I love Adesa's recommendation of a blog. They can work wonders.
Maybe send your brother links to other people's unschooling blogs if
you don't want to have one. There are some listed here:
http://sandradodd.com/help
and each one has links to others.

Sandra

[Jennifer]

Sandra, you had said people who used to criticize
Kirby and/or your way of raising him haven't done so
in years.

Just curious, did these people ever say anything like,
"Well huh, you were right after all" or "I didn't
think this unschooling thing made sense, but it's
obvious it worked great" or anything like that?

Or did they just quietly stop making negative
comments?

Jenny

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
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[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Just curious, did these people ever say anything like,

"Well huh, you were right after all" or "I didn't
think this unschooling thing made sense, but it's

obvious it worked great" or anything like that?-=-

Some did. Notably my mother-in-law!

-=-Or did they just quietly stop making negative comments?-=-

Mostly that.

One childless teacher-friend went from pretty much being my best
friend (or at least she was over at the house the most <g>) to being
only an occasional acquaintance. She insulted me pretty good one day
and I'm sure we've neither forgotten it. Kirby was six. She thought
we would unschool kindergarten and then put him in first. We were
leaving that option open, certainly, and gave him the choice and he
wanted to stay home. My friend said one day, standing in the
doorway ready to leave anyway, which was good, something like "You're
doing this for your benefit, not for Kirby's."

I didn't even ask her what she meant. She was accusing me of being
selfish. Maybe she was jealous because I wasn't going to go back to
work, I don't know. But on the day I had this barely-six year old, I
also had a three year old and a crawling Holly, I guess (give or take
six months or a year for my unwillingness to do math).

On that day, my opinion of her opinion went to zero. We still did
some things together in later years, some singing, some SCA projects,
but in a detached and tea-party way. I tell her her dog is cute.
She tells me she's so glad Keith did this-or-that. Warmth went to
cold, though. The saddest thing is that she's Holly's godmother.
When Holly was younger then school-age, she made her a few gifts and
bought her some Kelly dolls when she had a Barbie birthday, but when
Holly hit school age, that valve closed up.

Sometimes Holly used to tell me to drive safely, or be
careful---"Don't die, mom; I don't want to go and live with Barb."
She was seriously relieved when she and the boys got old enough that
they wouldn't have had to have left the house if Keith and I both died.

Two others of note: A long-time friend who had kids about the ages
of Kirby and Marty, whose kids were in school but she used to toy
with the idea of homeschooling, and then said she would unschool her
oldest when she got to mid-school age... She used to come to our
park days and do needlework and hang out with the unschooling moms,
without her kids even! But she was harsh with her kids and they got
less and less sparkly and pretty much had shut down emotionally even
before she told her husband to move out and he shot himself. Those
were Kirby's godparents.

She used to tell me that if I didn't hit Kirby he was going to grow
up and hit me.

A mutual friend told me a few years ago that her second child/son
*did* hit her at least once, when he was a teenager.

We just barely speak now. "Hi." We smile. We both know that's all
that's left.

And my best friend Jeff...
He LOVES my kids, especially Marty. And until I got to this very
line I didn't realize I was writing about all three kids' godparents!!!

Jeff is Marty's godfather. His long-ago ex-girlfriend was the
godmother, but she's no longer appearing in this story.

Jeff says sweet mushy things about one or the other of my kids
sometimes, and very often postulates what he thinks is the cause of
the wonder or cleverness of the moment, and it's never unschooling,
in his theories. <g>

Sandra

[Schuyler Waynforth]

Sometimes it is hard to negotiate relationships. I don't have a very close relationship with my brother. He's asked my mom to tell me that homeschooling Simon and Linnaea is wrong on more than one occasion. Mom tells me, maybe because it is gossip, maybe because she wants to hear my response, maybe to tell me that she doesn't want to tell me to stop unschooling Simon and Linnaea. It doesn't matter, really, it is just the flow of information that happens in my family.

If his being around more makes things more difficult, try and get out when you know he's coming. Have a list of things that you can do to bail quickly if he drops by unexpectedly. And strew stuff around the house, in the bathrooms, on the coffee tables, wherever, that are about unschooling. Don't expect him to change his mind though. And while it is hard, really hard, to know that someone is looking at your life through critical glasses, waiting for you to fail, try to embrace your life as fully as you can, without worrying about how he sees you. There is nothing you can do that will win his approval of you, at least nothing more than what you are doing, with time. My brother, who has 2 children who are older than my 2 children, wrote me an e-mail with this at the end: "I always read your blog.  And even though I'm too square to get into unschooling (private school is hardly better), I like the idea of your little clan running around having adventures. " I figure that is about the closest I'll ever get to his approval. And the blog is such a wonderful way to advertise our lives.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Betsy Hill]

That's my experience as well.

 

My relatives don't rush to tell me that I'm a great mom (amused sigh), but they DO sometimes tell me that my kid is turning out great.  That's enough to make my day.

 

Betsy

Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:

-=-Just curious, did these people ever say anything like,
"Well huh, you were right after all" or "I didn't
think this unschooling thing made sense, but it's
obvious it worked great" or anything like that?-=-

Some did. Notably my mother-in-law!


-=-Or did they just quietly stop making negative comments?-=-

Mostly that.

One childless teacher-friend went from pretty much being my best

friend (or at least she was over at the house the most ) to being

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-My brother, who has 2 children who are older than my 2 children,

wrote me an e-mail with this at the end: "I always read your blog.
And even though I'm too square to get into unschooling (private
school is hardly better), I like the idea of your little clan running
around having adventures. " I figure that is about the closest I'll
ever get to his approval. And the blog is such a wonderful way to

advertise our lives. -=-

That's a good one, Schuyler. After how many years? I want to note
how long it takes for people's relatives to chill. Documentation.

Anyone else have acceptance notes like this? I'll start a collection.

Somewhere I have the note Keith's mom wrote, in the midst of another
letter, about it seeming like we'd done a good job. I think Kirby
was already 18 or so, but it did come.

Sandra

[k]

I get comments all the time from strangers.  This evening we were at the Radio Shack and the salesman was amazed that ds actually listened when I said "Hey the cars in that parking lot move and I want you to stay in here where there's no cars" and ds dawdled momentarily then reentered the store after opening the door to hang out for a second.  I'm used to ds respecting what I say (since I rarely need to sound an alarm anyway and in the meantime we spend a lot of time listening to what ds has to say).  It's mutual.  The salesman has no idea of anything about "unschooling" having anything to do with it. 

I've also gotten happy openhearted compliments from my reluctant family... not in approval of my parenting or unschooling (perish the thought!)  ... just saying how great ds is.  And that's been true since he was just a tiny tyke. 

~Katherine

[Schuyler Waynforth]

Well, probably 5 years, maybe. Maybe less, for a while my life was one of his sitcom ideas. I don't know if that counts as approval though. It didn't make it beyond the discussing it with his writing partner stage. I couldn't figure out where there would be enough drama or laughter. I mean we laugh all the time, but it isn't really audience inducing laughter. Maybe he was hoping for some gentle comedy like The Flight of the Conchords, though? I know he always wanted to spin the Viz cartoon The Modern Parents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Modern_Parents) into a television show, maybe he figures that our lives is something along those lines.

My dad doesn't approve of our unschooling. I was talking to him about it the other day, telling him the sideways nice thing that Sam had written and dad said "Well, you know I don't approve" with huge tension in his voice, anticipating a fight maybe. And I laughed and said, "Yes, but you once said that you knew that David and I hadn't made this decision lightly. That we had thought long and hard before deciding to follow this road." And so it went. But I totally appreciate that whatever he thinks of our decision, he believes that we have made a responsible choice. So, even knowing he will probably never tell me that we've made the right decision, I can still see a way of being comfortable with his disapproval. Which is really cool.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[TJCHO...@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/8/2008 10:41:31 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, San...@sandradodd.com writes:

The saddest thing is that she's Holly's godmother. 

I can relate. My kids' Godparents are or were close friends. Actually my kids' Godmother and I have been very close friends since we met in elementary school when we were 7 - so a good 22 years. She met her now husband, my kids' Godfather right out of high school and they dated for years - they are the perfect match - complimenting each other's strengths and weaknesses. He immediately slipped into the role as another in our extended family and we have loved him very much for about 11 years now.

 

They used to be very involved with my kids - coming over to play with them, we'd spend some holidays together. When school age hit for my kids they were quite skeptical of the whole NOT going to school thing but pretty much didn't say too much about it. Then they had a daughter.

 

They had a daughter when my kids were 2 and 9 (ish). I was there for her birth. To be honest I thought our families would get to spend more time together once they had a daughter as they'd be more into the kids and family life - but it was the opposite. Mom works full time and went back to work immediately after a short maternity leave. Dad was on disability from back surgery so stayed home with their daughter. But he wanted a break so had her in a daycare two days a week. It seemed they were so tired on their weekends from work and daycare and whatever else they didn't want to go far on weekends or entertain much (we live one hour apart). So we spent a lot less time together.

 

Then what made me really sad was they came over before Christmas this past year for a visit. I was sad to see how much their daughter had grown and I had not gotten to experience so much of the previous year. But I could have made a greater effort to schlep over there too. So not all their fault. But they were both so beaming and excited their daughter who had turned two just a couple weeks before got a spot in a full time daycare/preschool program starting right after winter break - where she would go 11 hours a day five days a week (yes, dad still stays home full time though he is recovered). They went on and on about how she can compete puzzles and knows some of her letters and sounds and they are teaching her more. I just was so crushed inside this little child had to spend the vast majority of her waking life away from her parents. They were thrilled as she was now on the fast track to a successful life. Then they immediately went into accosting me with reasons why homeschooling is dangerous, what about college, what about tests, how do I know they learn anything, homeschooling parents often homeschool because they have abuse or drug problems, homeschooling parents probably just give their children the answers so they don't have to see them struggle, they will never be able to live in the real world (what a kicker - what we do IS live in the real world - it is our education). On and on. They didn't want me to answer their questions - they just clearly felt this was damaging.

 

I was not thrilled. It was more so the kids' Godfather speaking and his wife being quiet in the background. I went a few months later and had lunch with their Godfather and we had a bit of a heart to heart over how we have different goals and different strong feelings and that is OK. I said I would not choose to have their daughter in school like she is - but I love her and I support that those are their choices to make and sure hope I would be invited to her recitals and plays and awards nights and all that school stuff and I would go with bells on to support her. But I don't think that will happen.

 

I do think there is still a connection but yes as Sandra said in her post those warm feelings went really cold I think on both sides. When I think of it now I do mourn my friendship I lost over this. Yes, we will still see each other, it just is not the same. But hey - that is OK. It has to be. I have see many long time relationships strained or gone due to our parenting choices - but gosh our choices are so worth it IMO. And I have had the blessings of making some amazing and close new friendships with more like minded parents and their kids.

 

I do think from our recent discussions on the board that it may be worth trying to strengthen the connection between my kids and their Godparents. They do have a lot of common interests. And while we have differing opinions on major life choices they are still people we care about. So I think we will be mourning what was but hopefully can maintain some closeness.

 

T

 

 

---

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

[TJCHO...@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/8/2008 3:07:16 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ecsa...@sbcglobal.net writes:

My relatives don't rush to tell me that I'm a great mom (amused sigh), but they DO sometimes tell me that my kid is turning out great.  That's enough to make my day.

It does make ones day to hear doesn't it. But it also makes me LOL! I have gotten those from some people. I sometimes think they give no credit to us - it is just some fluke that this great kid is emerging despite their odd upbringing!

 

 

[TJCHO...@aol.com]

True! I get comments all the time from strangers and acquaintances that I am an amazing mom - based on them observing some snippet of what ever we are doing - wherever that is. It always makes me smile. One old friend from school once told me I was the best parent they knew of and they told people that when they'd run into someone who asked about me. They were so happy to see someone who genuinely liked their child and vice versa. That made my day definitely. Funny how when people learn you unschool - or even homeschool as many people don't know what unschool is - suddenly the people who said you were such an amazing parent suddenly think you are a bad one. or the people who think homeschooloing is fine but gosh if you unschool you are just a neglectful parent. Those people clearly don't realize all that goes into it! C'est la vie.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=I do think from our recent discussions on the board that it may be worth trying to strengthen the connection between my kids and their Godparents. They do have a lot of common interests. And while we have differing opinions on major life choices they are still people we care about. So I think we will be mourning what was but hopefully can maintain some closeness.-=-

I think that would be cruel to the godparents.  I would let it slide.  You might add more stress to their already-stressed (self-induced stresses) life by putting your kids in their line of sight.   And if they get alone with the kids, will they shame them and try to drive a wedge between you and them?

If they've made a challenged, so that only one family can "win," they've created a lose/lose situation.  You didn't.

I would turn the other way and wait for invitations to awards ceremonies.  I wouldn't hold my breath.

Sandra

[annx33]

I've been following this thread about family members comments/
opinions, etc and musing, with gratitude, on my own increased ability
to just keep my mouth shut, or answer simply, particularly in the
midst of questions from my mom, or sister. (But, how are they going
to learn biology?) Recently I got another chance to listen and answer
simply.

In the last month my mom was diagnosed with cancer. She went from
driving around, playing bridge, book club, etc to death in 3 weeks.
About a week before she died, she turned to me and said, pretty much
out of the blue, "You know I really disagreed with the homeschooling
thing when you started, but I was wrong. It's worked out beautifully
for you guys, your kids are amazing." I just about fell off my chair
as I thanked her for saying that. (In 50 years, I'm not sure I've ever
heard my mom say she was wrong. !)

Our kids were the only grandchildren who were with her when she died.

Ann.
mom to Dan,15, Joe, 15, Nora 13
partner to Mary Ellen, 19 years.

[annx33]

[TanyaZ]

TJCHORI...@aol.com wrote:
> He is now in his mid to late thirties, just got married last year and they

> are considering kids in the next year or so. <snip> And he

> has been adamant when he has kids they will never watch TV as TV is horrible,
> they will be read to constantly and have strict boundaries.
>

It sounds to me like his children are going to need a loving, caring
aunt (such as yourself) in their lives who they can turn to when they
need a soft place to fall and can't go to their parents, also a loving
aunt from whom they can witness and come to appreciate gentle/peaceful
parenting. Even if you end up not seeing them often, I guarantee you
that you will make an impression on their lives. I speak from
experience.

Let me just say that my parents were not the best. But I had one aunt
that made a lifetime impression on me by her kindness and loving
parenting. She lived in another city, so I only saw her a few times a
year; but to this day I mourn her untimely and way-to-early death when
I was in high school. She was always kind and loving, but there are
two specific incidents that had the greatest impact on me. The first
was the time she sat next to me and actually asked me things about
myself with a general interest. The second time was when her toddler
son was in the midst of a full-blown, balls to the wall, lengthy
tantrum. While everyone else in the house was becoming severely
irritated, my aunt scooped up her son in her arms, cradled him, hugged
him, put her lips to his forehead, rocked him, and told him she loved
him. I had never seen that before and thought it was the most loving
thing I'd ever witnessed. Several years ago when I was hanging out
with her now-adult son (my cousin), I made a point to tell him how
wonderful his mother was (he was quite young when she died), the story
of her scooping him up and loving him in the midst of a tantrum, the
great impression she made on me, and how much I still miss her to this
day. He appreciated my sharing that with him.

Now, as an aunt to 3 children myself, I try to be to them what my aunt
was to me. My 13-year-old niece thinks I'm the best person in the
world and we exchange e-mail almost every single day. My aunt was my
model for gentle parenting, and I want to be that for my niece (and
nephews) too.

Food for thought for you...
Tanya

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-where she would go 11 hours a day five days a week-=-

ELEVEN HOURS A DAY!?????

-=-homeschooling parents probably just give their children the answers so they don't have to see them struggle-=-

Crap.  And here you, as their friend, had given them the answer, and you're still going to have to see them struggle through life with increasing loss of closeness.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-"You know I really disagreed with the homeschooling

thing when you started, but I was wrong. It's worked out beautifully

for you guys, your kids are amazing." -=-

Oh my gosh. Ann, I'm so sorry to hear your mom died so suddenly, but
what a WONDERFUL thing that she said "amazing."

Sandra

[k]

Hey that's where our son has been in the last few months since his dad got primary custody.  In childcare... an individual (which I encouraged his dad to look for) rather than a daycare.  His dad went through 3 women recommended by church friends who all quit.  Then he settled on 2 women who were friends and alternated days.  It's the already long schedule and the impromptu calls for overtime at work that made this option easier to live with.  And one of those women is an unschooler, which fits with how our son was being raised up to that point.  Her friend is just easygoing and has a toddler almost 2 years old.

 

The court (SC) did not even consider the long hours a child may end up in childcare. 

 

~Katherine

[k]

Yes Tanya.  I'm in a similar position with my nieces.  The mom makes assumptions and says she feels close.  I encourage my nieces to be happy with their successes and they need that. 

 

~Katherine

[TJCHO...@aol.com]

<Hey that's where our son has been in the last few months since his dad got primary custody.>

 

That really frustrates me. When in custody situations you see one parent get x amount of visitation - but a big percentage of when they are with that parent the child is in daycare or with a babysitter or nanny or what have you. Don't you think that those times when one parent has a child in care that the option of the care being provided by the pother parent should be the first choice. At least the option offered - give the other parent first chance to have that time.

 

I am a childcare provider to support us while being with my kids. I have a flexible schedule so that there are days we have totally free too. But also just watch one other family's child most of the time so we can still go on outings if we want - it is just up plus 1. The boy we watch most often is now 2 - we've had him since he was 1 - about 15 months we have had him now. Three days a week - 9 hours each of those days. He is a sweet heart. And his parents are really nice people - socially I find them fun and nice and great to talk to about non-parenting subjects. But boy do we have differing parenting. They both work full time so I have him three days a week, his Grandma has him two days a week - and then to give them some alone time his Aunt takes him one day they are off. And so they have him like two hours before bed at night and then one weekend day. They say they need to sleep at night cause they have to work so when he wakes up at night - which he does every night - and cries they just close their door and pt ear plugs in. Now that he is in a toddler bed and can get out of bed and come to their room they make sure the baby gate is shut so he can't get downstairs, they lock their room door, and put in ear plugs as he bangs on the door and screams for them. Apparently this happens sometimes for hours at a time. It breaks my heart. She says the few times she gives in and lets him in he just gets in bed and falls right asleep. But they don't want to encourage that so don't allow it usually. They do however trust me completely and allow me free reign with him and let me take him anywhere we want to go. I watch him at my home or we are out and about. I feel blessed to be able to share our way of life, our easy style, our outings, our support of his needs - even if it is only 9 hours a day three days a week. I am sure it makes an impression he will remember. 

 

T

[Adesa]

Yes! My friendships from my traditional-parenting days are strained,
gone, or simply not being nurtured. And I'm WAY ok with that because
I've made the most phenomenal friendships among homeschoolers and
unschoolers. These women are the best friends ever: they understand
our relaxed lifestyle (and share it!), and we hold each other up
whenever those doubts creep in. Bonus: our kids are all great friends
together; they all get to stay up late playing online or go to
sleepovers with each other in the middle of the week. Surrounding
ourselves with such positive vibes makes it easier to tolerate the
naysayers that remain in my life.

On May 9, 1:51 am, TJCHORI...@aol.com wrote:
>I have seen